Do we need upgrades at wide receiver?
 

Apparently, I got laughed at for saying that we have one of the best and deepest wide receiver corps in the league. Is it just me, or is the wide receiver position the least of our worries? If anyone said attacked our weakness at wideout before the season started, please lead me to that post because I don't believe anyone here expressed such sentiments.

Our talent at wide receiver is in the top 10 without question. James Thrash is our number 4 wideout whereas last year he was the number one wideout in Philly. Before the season started, the Ravens were going after McCants and we've played the guy in about 4 series this year and didn't dress him until halfway through the season. Taylor Jacobs, who many projected as a mid-first round pick, was praised by Champ Bailey as one of the most talented receivers/route-runners he's met.

People point to Gardner and complain that he misses easy catches. There's a reason he's our #2, he's not supposed to be our #1 so quit acting like the guy is supposed ot be Randy Moss.

Lavernaues Coles. Enough said. When many "experts" laughed at the 'Skins for overpaying Coles, I distinctly recall a great many of you enjoying Coles' success and raving about the guy. All of the sudden, Coles is Michael Westbrook. What gives? I personally love Coles (if Ramsey had been traded, I would've changed my screen name to ColesFan). Now he's being touted as "just another receiver." Talk about fickle fans.

Anyone who honestly believes that our wide receiving corps is sub-par or a big reason for our team's record needs to think twice. If our WR corps needs to be upgraded, we might as well scrap the team because I can't think of any other unit on our roster that is deeper and of better quality.

I think our receivers are very good and will get better once McCants and especially Jacobs get more playing time

I've changed my mind, let's go on another spending spree and trade our entire team for Moss, Boldin, and a few others. If we have space, maybe we could sign Marvin Harrison to the practice squad.

I voted good, but unspectacular. We have some good talent and good depth. It's the inconsistency thats killing us. Especially from Gardner. He's living up to his nickname 50/50.

Matty, let me preface this post by saying that I truly am not trying to be obnoxious and I'm sorry if this post is. In the words of Ali G, "Respect."

But, I don't understand your criticism of our receivers. Before the season began, you praised guys like Coles, McCants, Jacobs, and even Gardner. Now it is laughable for me to say that we have one of the best and deepest WR corps in the league? What gives?

It is especially strange since, before the season you (like me) thought our offense was going to be a powerhouse.

In the below thread you said our passing attack would be "lethal."
[url]http://www.thewarpath.net/showthread.php?t=645&page=1&pp=15&highlight=offense[/url]

In the below thread you said we have enough weapons on our offense that we shouldn't have drafted Kellen Winslow.
[url]http://www.thewarpath.net/showthread.php?p=10339&highlight=offense#post10339[/url]

In the below thread you said that an offense of Brunell, Portis, Winslow, Coles, and Gardner would be "scary."
[url]http://www.thewarpath.net/showthread.php?p=2622&highlight=offense#post2622[/url]

In the below thread you said that, "Portis in Gibbs' offense would be downright scary. With an offense that would feature Coles, Brunell and Portis it would be downright explosive and perhaps [B][I]the most talented trio Gibbs has ever had[/I]."[/B]
[url]http://www.thewarpath.net/showthread.php?p=76&highlight=offense#post76[/url]

If our wide receivers aren't that good, why would you make the above comments?

IMO "one of the best and deepest WR corps in the league" does not equate in my mind to top 10. Top 3 maybe but not top 10. if the skins are #10 that means one-third of the league has better WRs than the skins. That just does not sound like best and deepest to me.

I voted average and I think they are. They are not the best and not the worst. Except for Coles I'm not sure the skins have a WR any team in the league would trade another player or draft pick of value for.

The skins problems are system-wide. Everything & everyone needs to improve for this team to even have a chance of sniffing the playoffs.

We need to LC to have surgery on his toe is he can return to his form from the beginnign of last year.

If we even remotely have the best wide receiving corps or even one of the best, then I have not seen it this year. I don't think we need to keep all of the receivers we have now for next year. I wouldn't mind seeing McCants and Thrash get more playing time.

Do I think we have a talented WR group? Yeah I do. Have they performed to expectations this year? Absolutely not.

LC has been pretty average since his toe injury last year. Gardner still drops way too many balls. Taylor and McCants are still unproven. Thrash was in way over his head playing as a #1 WR in Philly. I like his hustle and his special teams play, but as a WR he doesn't scare many people.

They have a lot to prove before I'll declare them one of the best units in the league. Right now they're far from it.

Talent is one thing, production is entirely different.

[QUOTE=Ramseyfan]Matty, let me preface this post by saying that I truly am not trying to be obnoxious and I'm sorry if this post is. In the words of Ali G, "Respect."

But, I don't understand your criticism of our receivers. Before the season began, you praised guys like Coles, McCants, Jacobs, and even Gardner. Now it is laughable for me to say that we have one of the best and deepest WR corps in the league? What gives?

It is especially strange since, before the season you (like me) thought our offense was going to be a powerhouse.

In the below thread you said our passing attack would be "lethal."
[url="http://www.thewarpath.net/showthread.php?t=645&page=1&pp=15&highlight=offense"]http://www.thewarpath.net/showthread.php?t=645&page=1&pp=15&highlight=offense[/url]

In the below thread you said we have enough weapons on our offense that we shouldn't have drafted Kellen Winslow.
[url="http://www.thewarpath.net/showthread.php?p=10339&highlight=offense#post10339"]http://www.thewarpath.net/showthread.php?p=10339&highlight=offense#post10339[/url]

In the below thread you said that an offense of Brunell, Portis, Winslow, Coles, and Gardner would be "scary."
[url="http://www.thewarpath.net/showthread.php?p=2622&highlight=offense#post2622"]http://www.thewarpath.net/showthread.php?p=2622&highlight=offense#post2622[/url]

In the below thread you said that, "Portis in Gibbs' offense would be downright scary. With an offense that would feature Coles, Brunell and Portis it would be downright explosive and perhaps [b][i]the most talented trio Gibbs has ever had[/i]."[/b]
[url="http://www.thewarpath.net/showthread.php?p=76&highlight=offense#post76"]http://www.thewarpath.net/showthread.php?p=76&highlight=offense#post76[/url]

If our wide receivers aren't that good, why would you make the above comments?[/QUOTE]Notice I'm always referring to their potential, I never claimed this was a great WR group as it is right now, I was always referring to their potential and what I thought they could do.

I do think they are a talented group, they just haven't played to their potential yet.

Saying the Skins have one of the best WR groups in the league is a bit premature IMO.

When this group of wide receivers can be as consistant as what the posse was, then I'll say they are the best in the league.

I wonder if we can find a stat showing how many dropped balls our WR's have. I think we would be up there with Seattle.

Let's compare the stats of our top 2 receivers with some of the other top 2 receivers that many on this board say we're light years behind:

[B]Redskins[/B]

Coles: 52 catches, 606 yds, 1 TD
Gardner: 32 catches, 436 yards, 5 TD

[B]Patriots[/B]

Givens: 42 catches, 710 yds, 3 TD
Patten: 29 catches, 473 yds, 5 TD

[B]Seahawks[/B]

Jackson: 51 catches, 742 yds, 4 TD
Robinson: 31 catches, 495 yds, 2 TD

[B]Chiefs[/B]

Gonzalez: 49 catches, 647 yds, 5 TD
Morton: 43 catches, 581 yds, 2 TD

[B]Steelers[/B]

Ward: 57 catches, 678 yds, 3 TD
Burress: 32 catches, 601 yds, 4 TD

Sorry if I offended you RF, that wasn't my intention.

I think we might be misinterpreting each other here. When I hear someone say we have one of the best and deepest WR corps in the league, I'm thinking best as in production, not potential as I'm guessing you meant. So that's why I took issue with what you said.

I do agree they have talent at WR. I also don't think they need to overhaul the WR's next year. But right now I have a hard time calling them the best at anything.

Skewed stats...how about the number of passes thrown in their direction and the number of passes dropped?

[QUOTE=smootsmack]Let's compare the stats of our top 2 receivers with some of the other top 2 receivers that many on this board say we're light years behind:

[B]Redskins[/B]

Coles: 52 catches, 606 yds, 1 TD
Gardner: 32 catches, 436 yards, 5 TD

[B]Patriots[/B]

Givens: 42 catches, 710 yds, 3 TD
Patten: 29 catches, 473 yds, 5 TD

[B]Seahawks[/B]

Jackson: 51 catches, 742 yds, 4 TD
Robinson: 31 catches, 495 yds, 2 TD

[B]Chiefs[/B]

Gonzalez: 49 catches, 647 yds, 5 TD
Morton: 43 catches, 581 yds, 2 TD

[B]Steelers[/B]

Ward: 57 catches, 678 yds, 3 TD
Burress: 32 catches, 601 yds, 4 TD[/QUOTE]

How about drops SS? Can you find a stat for that? I'm really interested in seeing how we compare to the others.

Our wide receiving corps isn't the worst by any stretch, but I just think an NFL receiver should be able to catch at LEAST 90% of the passes that are accurate to them. Passes that are right between the numbers or right in the hands. I can see them dropping a pass that they would have to make an acrobatic leap for or not catching passes that are behind them or overthrown, but passes that are right there to them should be caught.

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]Sorry if I offended you RF, that wasn't my intention.

I think we might be misinterpreting each other here. When I hear someone say we have one of the best and deepest WR corps in the league, I'm thinking best as in production, not potential as I'm guessing you meant. So that's why I took issue with what you said.

I do agree they have talent at WR. I also don't think they need to overhaul the WR's next year. But right now I have a hard time calling them the best at anything.[/QUOTE]

I didn't take offense Matty, but thanks anyways for the clarification. I simply love our wideouts; Coles is the classiest, hardest working, and talented WR we've had here since Gibbs last left. I love the guy as much as I do Ramsey. I love him and will defend him until my last breath.

Gardner is indeed inconsistent, but I like him as a #2.

You've also gotta love McCants for his ability to find seams and get open despite coming from a pathetic undergrad.

I also like Thrash because he's a Gibbs-guy; he works hard, doesn't moan, and he's a solid #4.

We haven't seen enough of Jacobs to make an assessment yet, but I think a lot of teams would be happy to have him as their #3.

Looking at the other teams around the league, I still stand by my statement that they are among the best and deepest. Give these guys a good QB and they will indeed be unstoppable. When Gibbs turns this offense around, I'm convinced we're going to fall in love with these guys.....that's all.

I certainly hope you're right Ramseyfan! I just hope they show us enough hard work and determination by season's end so that it won't leave us wondering if we need to upgrade the WR's position or at least make changes for next year.

our WRs are really good. yes lets get new ones and suck for 3 more yrs. cant even blame gardner from the drops. he so surprised that the ball is in his reach he cant even contain himself. we played 9 games with a man who cudnt even connect w a checkdown. no real chemistry building there. i expect that with PR gettin the time the WRs will get used to him and make some plays... doesnt help that our offensive gameplan is trash but thats different. fix that, THEN we'll talk about the WRs.

[QUOTE=Redskins_P]How about drops SS? Can you find a stat for that? I'm really interested in seeing how we compare to the others.[/QUOTE]

Here's some of what I could find:

[URL=http://snap.stats.com/stats/nflinfo/playerstats.asp?id=5107]Coles[/URL]-Targets: 110 Drops: 6, Percent Caught 47.3

[URL=http://snap.stats.com/stats/nflinfo/playerstats.asp?id=5462&Submit=Go]Gardner[/URL]-Targets: 75 Drops: 6, Percent Caught 42.7

[URL=http://snap.stats.com/stats/nflinfo/playerstats.asp?id=4172]Patten[/URL]-Targets: 63 Drops: 7, Percent Caught 46.0

[URL=http://snap.stats.com/stats/nflinfo/playerstats.asp?id=6115&Submit=Go]Givens[/URL]-Targets: 75 Drops: 1 Percent Caught: 56

[URL=http://snap.stats.com/stats/nflinfo/playerstats.asp?id=5109&Submit=Go]Jackson[/URL]-Targets: 99 Drops: 6, Percent Caught: 51.5

[URL=http://snap.stats.com/stats/nflinfo/playerstats.asp?id=5456&Submit=Go]Robinson[/URL]-Targets: 66 Drops: 10 Percent Caught: 47

[URL=http://snap.stats.com/stats/nflinfo/playerstats.asp?id=2876&Submit=Go]Morton[/URL]-Targets: 58 Drops: 0 Percent Caught: 74.1

[URL=http://snap.stats.com/stats/nflinfo/playerstats.asp?id=4323&Submit=Go]Ward[/URL]-Targets: 67 Drops: 1 Percent Caught: 85.1

[URL=http://snap.stats.com/stats/nflinfo/playerstats.asp?id=5037]Burress[/URL]-Targets: 57 Drops: 2 Percent Caught: 56.1

Doesn't look too skewed to me. I think it just sort of snowballs what with our horrible game plans.

The problem is the performance of the offence as a whole. Every error is magnified by about 100% right now (maybe 1000%). Look at last week when everyone was saying the defence looked so bad and they only gave up 13 points. If we were scoring we would not be talking about the droped balls.

I voted sub-par, need new talent. Maybe that opinion changes if Ramsey gets in gear and really develops chemistry with them. The Offensive line still has issues too, so that ties in with the QB and WRs overall production.

Still, there are judgements you can make on certain plays when there was enough protection from the O-line, and if the QB isn't completely off.

We've already addressed the drops. But how many times was the QB well protected yet simply couldn't find an open receiver leading to a 'coverage sack' ? Were the wideouts able to get sufficient separation from defenders? Have the receivers been able to get open when the opposing defense knew the offensive gameplan shifted to a pass oriented attack when the team was behind? Does the mere presence of our receivers cause opposing defenses to stay in the backfield, or are they comfortable with taking their chances by keeping eight men in the box to stop Portis?

Too many times this season, the answers to these questions have been obvious.

How about asking this question: Would Peyton Manning and his offensive line still have the same success throwing the ball to Coles, Gardner, and Thrash? Not only no, but HELL NO.

With the exception of the Patriots and maybe the Falcons, teams who are at or near the top of their respective divisions all have at least one stand-out wide receiver that many will regulary say belong in the Top Ten in the league. I maintain that Coles wouldn't be on that list.

I simply feel that even if our quarterback situation was completely settled, that Ramsey was on target and playing well, AND if the offensive line was giving effective pass protection in addition to the threat of a strong running game, our wideouts would likely be lacking a consistent big play ability. If everything else was hitting on all cylinders, WR would be our weakest offensive position, -- our only glitch.

For this reason, I say that with our undoubtedly high draft position next year, we should not shy away from taking a wide receiver in the first round.

[QUOTE=Beemnseven]Would Peyton Manning and his offensive line still have the same success throwing the ball to Coles, Gardner, and Thrash? Not only no, but HELL NO.[/QUOTE]

I don't think you're giving Manning enough credit for the success of the Colts receivers

I could think of a lot of teams who would benefit with our receiving corps... that being said, I wouldn't be mad at the FO for drafting a stud. The only other guy that was seriously being considered over Sean Taylor was KWII last year- and our needs were just as strong (if not stronger) before last year's draft.

Our D-line still could use an end, but last year we didn't know how our tackles were going to pan out (Griffin was not a sure thing, as he's prone to inconsistency). We could still use a young end, but at least we know we've got guys who can play in Williams' system. The point is, I think we still have the same needs we had last year, but at least we know we're stronger at some of the positions in question.

Meaning, if we get a high draft pick, I wouldn't waste it on a center or guard just because we need one (you can draft solid non-tackle O-linemen in the later rounds). Williams has proven we can stick in non-superstars and still play like a top-3 defense. Even though our wideouts are solid, our offense could use a playmaker. If KWII was being considered to change the complexion of the offense, Mike Williams would totally give D-coordinators more to think about. A strong, tall, fast receiver (that runs precise routes and doesn't drop balls) would make defenses crowd the box a little less, opening things up for Portis next year.

If the problem on O is much bigger than any one position, we can't draft just because of a major need at one position. We should draft someone that has a huge impact on the overall scheme.

[QUOTE=smootsmack]Here's some of what I could find:

[URL=http://snap.stats.com/stats/nflinfo/playerstats.asp?id=5107]Coles[/URL]-Targets: 110 Drops: 6, Percent Caught 47.3

[URL=http://snap.stats.com/stats/nflinfo/playerstats.asp?id=5462&Submit=Go]Gardner[/URL]-Targets: 75 Drops: 6, Percent Caught 42.7

[URL=http://snap.stats.com/stats/nflinfo/playerstats.asp?id=4172]Patten[/URL]-Targets: 63 Drops: 7, Percent Caught 46.0

[URL=http://snap.stats.com/stats/nflinfo/playerstats.asp?id=6115&Submit=Go]Givens[/URL]-Targets: 75 Drops: 1 Percent Caught: 56

[URL=http://snap.stats.com/stats/nflinfo/playerstats.asp?id=5109&Submit=Go]Jackson[/URL]-Targets: 99 Drops: 6, Percent Caught: 51.5

[URL=http://snap.stats.com/stats/nflinfo/playerstats.asp?id=5456&Submit=Go]Robinson[/URL]-Targets: 66 Drops: 10 Percent Caught: 47

[URL=http://snap.stats.com/stats/nflinfo/playerstats.asp?id=2876&Submit=Go]Morton[/URL]-Targets: 58 Drops: 0 Percent Caught: 74.1

[URL=http://snap.stats.com/stats/nflinfo/playerstats.asp?id=4323&Submit=Go]Ward[/URL]-Targets: 67 Drops: 1 Percent Caught: 85.1

[URL=http://snap.stats.com/stats/nflinfo/playerstats.asp?id=5037]Burress[/URL]-Targets: 57 Drops: 2 Percent Caught: 56.1[/QUOTE]


Interested to find out how many years this includes....what about stats of drops for this year?

[QUOTE=skinsguy]Interested to find out how many years this includes....what about stats of drops for this year?[/QUOTE]

Those numbers apply for this year

That's alot of drops.

Yea it is. Look at Heniz Ward! He never drops the ball.

Hmmmm, Ward has an 85.1% completion rate where as both Coles and Gardner are in the 40% range for completions.

Yea,that's not good. Maybe they can put some stickem on there hands. :confused-

[QUOTE=smootsmack]Here's some of what I could find:

[URL=http://snap.stats.com/stats/nflinfo/playerstats.asp?id=5107]Coles[/URL]-Targets: 110 Drops: 6, Percent Caught 47.3

[URL=http://snap.stats.com/stats/nflinfo/playerstats.asp?id=5462&Submit=Go]Gardner[/URL]-Targets: 75 Drops: 6, Percent Caught 42.7

[URL=http://snap.stats.com/stats/nflinfo/playerstats.asp?id=4172]Patten[/URL]-Targets: 63 Drops: 7, Percent Caught 46.0

[URL=http://snap.stats.com/stats/nflinfo/playerstats.asp?id=6115&Submit=Go]Givens[/URL]-Targets: 75 Drops: 1 Percent Caught: 56

[URL=http://snap.stats.com/stats/nflinfo/playerstats.asp?id=5109&Submit=Go]Jackson[/URL]-Targets: 99 Drops: 6, Percent Caught: 51.5

[URL=http://snap.stats.com/stats/nflinfo/playerstats.asp?id=5456&Submit=Go]Robinson[/URL]-Targets: 66 Drops: 10 Percent Caught: 47

[URL=http://snap.stats.com/stats/nflinfo/playerstats.asp?id=2876&Submit=Go]Morton[/URL]-Targets: 58 Drops: 0 Percent Caught: 74.1

[URL=http://snap.stats.com/stats/nflinfo/playerstats.asp?id=4323&Submit=Go]Ward[/URL]-Targets: 67 Drops: 1 Percent Caught: 85.1

[URL=http://snap.stats.com/stats/nflinfo/playerstats.asp?id=5037]Burress[/URL]-Targets: 57 Drops: 2 Percent Caught: 56.1[/QUOTE]


Thanks Smootsmack. Nice find.

Did anyone else notice who had the lowest percentage? Uhh yeah Gardner. Here Gardners new nickname: 42.7/57.3

[QUOTE=Riggo44]Yea,that's not good. Maybe they can put some stickem on there hands. :confused-[/QUOTE]


Hahaha!

so ward and plaxico are one of the best tandems i think, still doesnt mean we are awful. i bet you a bunch of the players on O are wishing they played under another coach right now. makes me wonder if someone like smoot, in a contract yr, will even want to come back to Same Old Story DC...

Ha and I bet you're wrong!!

[QUOTE=VTSkins897]so ward and plaxico are one of the best tandems i think, still doesnt mean we are awful. i bet you a bunch of the players on O are wishing they played under another coach right now. makes me wonder if someone like smoot, in a contract yr, will even want to come back to Same Old Story DC...[/QUOTE]


Smoot has said over and over again that he wants to remain a Redskin. So stop wondering.

[QUOTE=skinsguy]Ha and I bet you're wrong!![/QUOTE]

That was original. :lol:

While I've liked the flashes of talent jacobs has shown, no one other than coles, and sometimes not even him, has proven to be a reliable recieving threat. I think we need a player like m. williams or b. edwards to prevent coles from being cosistently being double teamed as well as teams often keeping 8 at the line of scrimmage to stop our only realy weapon in portis. No one in our wr corp can do that even if ramsey is throwing the ball accurately on a consistent basis. Some may be afraid of our recent history of selecting wrs with first round picks but that doesn't hide the fact that we need a player that is a liable downfield threat opposite of coles and gardner, mccants, and jacobs just ain't up to snuff at this point in their careers. We could probably even trade down a little and still get edwards as well as address both the offensive and defensive lines(especially with my boy Chris Canty being a possible late first/early second day steal after his injury.)

[QUOTE=skinsfanthru&thru]While I've liked the flashes of talent jacobs has shown, no one other than coles, and sometimes not even him, has proven to be a reliable recieving threat. I think we need a player like m. williams or b. edwards to prevent coles from being cosistently being double teamed as well as teams often keeping 8 at the line of scrimmage to stop our only realy weapon in portis. No one in our wr corp can do that even if ramsey is throwing the ball accurately on a consistent basis. Some may be afraid of our recent history of selecting wrs with first round picks but that doesn't hide the fact that we need a player that is a liable downfield threat opposite of coles and gardner, mccants, and jacobs just ain't up to snuff at this point in their careers. We could probably even trade down a little and still get edwards as well as address both the offensive and defensive lines(especially with my boy Chris Canty being a possible late first/early second day steal after his injury.)[/QUOTE]

Well, taking Taylor Jacobs as an example. If he's not up to snuff yet at this point in his NFL career, how would a player still in college be more ready?