Most Disappointed in an Athlete
 

Whether we want to admit it, and whether it's right, we put pro athletes at a higher pedestal than we put even ourselves and expect them to be beyond reproach.

I have, I think, a bit of a unique perspective having been around pro athletes for much of the past decade on a daily basis. And I've told here about my personal experiences with Darrell Green and finding him to be less than the person I thought he was (still doesn't take away from what I think of him as a player or what he meant to Redskins fans). It was very disappointing, but in a way it was good because it was so early in my career that it prepared me moving forward. I should say I've been pleasantly surprised as well.

Anyway, my question is when have you been most disappointed with an athlete. And I'm not really talking about on-field performance. I'm talking about their actions off the field. Though if you want to include something like Palmeiro using steroids, that would count.

Was it finding out Mickey Mantle was an alcoholic who allegedly beat his kids, was it finding out Kirby Puckett was a womanizer who allegedly beat his wife, was it finding out Agassi was a druggie in his prime, was it finding out about Tiger, was it something else? Has it never happened? And maybe it was a college player, not necessarily an NFL player.

re: Most Disappointed in an Athlete
 

I remember being a kid and idolizing Mike Tyson. Watching him destroy people and playing his video game only to be shocked when his career took a complete 180. The baseball steroid scandal was another disappointment for me. Being a rangers fan I had grown to love players like Rafael Palmeiro and Juan Gonzalez.

Re: Most Disappointed in an Athlete
 

met Charles Barkley, and what you see is what you get. cool as hell. met Dr. J. and more of the same. carried himself just reeking of class. idolized Mike Schmidt as a kid, and never heard anything bad about him. i always looked at these guys as normal guys, that made it. maybe i didnt hold athletes as high as i thought i did

Re: Most Disappointed in an Athlete
 

I've got issues with the premise. Fine thread, because a lot of people do put athletes on a pedastal, and do somehow get disappointed by athletes (or other celebrities) on a personal level.

I personally can't understand that, but that's just me. I want the Redskins to win desperately, and I do like when they're good guys. But I only care about their character and their actions to the extent that they disrupt the team's ability to win games.

When I learned John Riggins was out drinking before big games, I didn't care. Why? Because he was awesome, and the 'Skins won with him. If they had lost because of that stuff, I'd care.

But if Tiger Woods cheats on his wife, or Jason Campbell decides to smoke pot, Jimmy cracked corn and I don't care. I appreciate them for what they do on the field. That's where it ends, I don't know them as a person. And for me to pretend like I do or should is somewhat silly.

Re: Most Disappointed in an Athlete
 

I should have said many of us put pro athletes on a higher pedestal.

Re: Most Disappointed in an Athlete
 

[quote=SmootSmack;636987]Whether we want to admit it, and whether it's right, we put pro athletes at a higher pedestal than we put even ourselves and expect them to be beyond reproach.

I have, I think, a bit of a unique perspective having been around pro athletes for much of the past decade on a daily basis. And I've told here about my personal experiences with Darrell Green and finding him to be less than the person I thought he was (still doesn't take away from what I think of him as a player or what he meant to Redskins fans). It was very disappointing, but in a way it was good because it was so early in my career that it prepared me moving forward. I should say I've been pleasantly surprised as well.

Anyway, my question is when have you been most disappointed with an athlete. And I'm not really talking about on-field performance. I'm talking about their actions off the field. Though if you want to include something like Palmeiro using steroids, that would count.

Was it finding out Mickey Mantle was an alcoholic who allegedly beat his kids, was it finding out Kirby Puckett was a womanizer who allegedly beat his wife, was it finding out Agassi was a druggie in his prime, was it finding out about Tiger, was it something else? Has it never happened? And maybe it was a college player, not necessarily an NFL player.[/quote]

I totally agree about Green he is a big time jerk in person. He seems to hate all the attention, well he should move out of the DC area and go some place where less people will know him, I suggest the North Pole.

Re: Most Disappointed in an Athlete
 

[quote=Schneed10;637007]I've got issues with the premise. Fine thread, because a lot of people do put athletes on a pedastal, and do somehow get disappointed by athletes (or other celebrities) on a personal level.

I personally can't understand that, but that's just me. I want the Redskins to win desperately, and I do like when they're good guys. But I only care about their character and their actions to the extent that they disrupt the team's ability to win games.

When I learned John Riggins was out drinking before big games, I didn't care. Why? Because he was awesome, and the 'Skins won with him. If they had lost because of that stuff, I'd care.

But if Tiger Woods cheats on his wife, or Jason Campbell decides to smoke pot, Jimmy cracked corn and I don't care. I appreciate them for what they do on the field. That's where it ends, I don't know them as a person. And for me to pretend like I do or should is somewhat silly.[/quote]


I totally agree with you as well. This is going to be very unpopular but I felt the same way when S. Taylor died. I was sad but I only knew him on a football field, I don't understand the folks that are crying their eyes out like a family member died, you didn't know him personally.

Re: Most Disappointed in an Athlete
 

[quote=mredskins;637012]I totally agree with you as well. This is going to be very unpopular but I felt the same way when S. Taylor died. I was sad but I only knew him on a football field, I don't understand the folks that are crying their eyes out like a family member died, you didn't know him personally.[/quote]

i didn't know sean, but when he died i felt like i lost a family member to an extent. i think it's cause he was so fun to watch on the feild and it was amazing to see him grow up so fast off the feild. i would hear all the stories about him and his daughter and the way it chaged him. i felt like he was cheated. sorry i could go on forever about taylor

i would say have to say bilicheat, i honestly used to really like the pats, once that stuff came out and i saw the video i lost all respect for him. cheating during games is something that i can't get past, and it makes me second guess all the accomplishments he has.

Re: Most Disappointed in an Athlete
 

I think most people would act differently if they had a disposable income and fame.

It's pretty easy for the average man to not get into any trouble because they have to work 9 to 5 and they go unnoticed in bars and nightclubs.

Now if you have unlimited income and a line of women waiting to meet you, things would be very different.

Pro athletes are just a reflection of society. Most are good people but there are your deadbeat dads, Junkies and drunks mixed in.

Re: Most Disappointed in an Athlete
 

i think i ve told this story on here before.

im about 11 years old, my pop took me to what used to be called the Kemper Open at tpc avenel.

i was hanging around right outside the players locker room. there was no one in the hallway, just an 11 year old kid sitting on the floor. some golfers come by after their round, i ask them to sign my program. they all do to varying degrees of niceness.

along comes payne stewart with his knicker-bockers and all. i ask him to sign my program. without looking at me or stopping walking, he takes the program, signs it as he continues walking away then throws it on the ground and enters the locker room.

Re: Most Disappointed in an Athlete
 

[quote=over the mountain;637081]i think i ve told this story on here before.

im about 11 years old, my pop took me to what used to be called the Kemper Open at tpc avenel.

i was hanging around right outside the players locker room. there was no one in the hallway, just an 11 year old kid sitting on the floor. some golfers come by after their round, i ask them to sign my program. they all do to varying degrees of niceness.

along comes payne stewart with his knicker-bockers and all. i ask him to sign my program. without looking at me or stopping walking, he takes the program, signs it as he continues walking away then throws it on the ground and enters the locker room.[/quote]

See now that's a little different. That's an actual personal interaction with the guy.

If some random dude on the street bumped into you and didn't say sorry, you'd immediately think he's a jackass. And that's appropriate. Same thing with Payne. If he did that to you, I think you're legitimately justified in being disappointed in him.

What I struggle with is why anyone cares if Tiger Woods cheats on his wife, unless they know Elin or Tiger personally.

Re: Most Disappointed in an Athlete
 

[quote=Schneed10;637085]See now that's a little different. That's an actual personal interaction with the guy.

If some random dude on the street bumped into you and didn't say sorry, you'd immediately think he's a jackass. And that's appropriate. Same thing with Payne. If he did that to you, I think you're legitimately justified in being disappointed in him.

What I struggle with is why anyone cares if Tiger Woods cheats on his wife, unless they know Elin or Tiger personally.[/quote]

Yeah I agree. Tiger is a good golfer, maybe the best. But just because of that doesn't mean he is some god. He's like a ton of other guys. Given open access to just about any hot chick in the world they'd all be cheating too. Who really cares? So he's a dog...it's not like he went and killed someone. Not that I don't "care" but it doesn't affect my admiration for him because my admiriation was for him as a golfer not for him as a person.

Re: Most Disappointed in an Athlete
 

[quote=FRPLG;637091]Yeah I agree. Tiger is a good golfer, maybe the best. But just because of that doesn't mean he is some god. He's like a ton of other guys. Given open access to just about any hot chick in the world they'd all be cheating too. Who really cares? So he's a dog...it's not like he went and killed someone. Not that I don't "care" but it doesn't affect my admiration for him because my admiriation was for him as a golfer not for him as a person.[/quote]

i think we :bdh: in the tiger thread

Re: Most Disappointed in an Athlete
 

[quote=FRPLG;637091]Yeah I agree. Tiger is a good golfer, maybe the best. But just because of that doesn't mean he is some god. He's like a ton of other guys. Given open access to just about any hot chick in the world they'd all be cheating too. Who really cares? So he's a dog...it's not like he went and killed someone. Not that I don't "care" but it doesn't affect my admiration for him because my admiriation was for him as a golfer not for him as a person.[/quote]

So how do you feel about OJ Simpson....

Seriously though, it's true that for some people it really doesn't matter at all. But I would believe that there are several people for whom it won't be the same to see Tiger win because their image of him has changed.

Still, I would agree that a personal experience would be more impactful. I mean Green has never done anything morally or legally wrong, but my personal interaction with him "hurt" more than hearing things about Kirby Puckett who I always considered a bit of an ambassador for the sport.

Maybe the thread question should have been "Have you ever had a disappointing experience meeting a pro athlete?" or something along those lines

Re: Most Disappointed in an Athlete
 

I haven't met too many personally and really I don't think a lot about their personal lives. I think that something like your Mantle and Green examples would be some which I'm not too fond of, mostly Mantle. I'm sure that they get tired of the attention but they also signed up knowing that it was coming.

I'm really struggling to come up with a good case here, I definitely didn't like how Palmeiro was a rat though.

Re: Most Disappointed in an Athlete
 

I think ESPN and all it's coverage of every athletes mistake/misfortune makes it that much worse.



I'll admit I was at the Bills game after Sean Taylors death and that video they put together to honor him was probaly one of the saddest things i've ever seen. I cried,just like the other 95,000 people that were there that day.

Re: Most Disappointed in an Athlete
 

Dexter Manley and Gary Clark come into one of our restaurants pretty frequently. The other day I was up at the hostess stand of our Bethesda location checking something on Open Table, and this bimbo looking chick comes strutting in and says "Gary Clark and Ricky Sanders are on their way in for drinks, so I need you clear three spaces at the bar for us right away." Well, the bar was totally full at the time, so I told her we'd be glad to give them the next three spots that open up, but they'll have to wait to get a seat. She gave me this "WTF" kind of look and said, "well, then Gary and Ricky won't be coming in here." I just shrugged my shoulders, and she left. Granted that wasn't coming out of Gary or Ricky's mouth, but the fact that they'd send one of their tramps in ahead of time to clear out the bar shows that kind of entitlement. Sorry fellas, you're no different than John Doe when you're in my bar. Not a huge deal, but just an example.

I met AJ Pierzynski in Gainesville a few times. He's totally a dude's dude. Very cool, very talkative, and even did a few shots with me at the bar. (He's a huge Gator fan and his little brother goes to school at UF).

Yeah, I'm disappointed in Tiger only because I admired him for who he is as a person as well as a golfer. To couple the kind of success he has on the course with being a good father and husband is admirable. Obviously that's not the case anymore. But his transgressions haven't diminished how I feel about him as a golfer.

Re: Most Disappointed in an Athlete
 

On the flip side, most people around here aren't too high on Clinton Portis. I think the dude is a diva with regard to the Redskins, but one of my closest friends ran into him and Santana at a Wizards game two years ago. He talked with CP for a good 5 minutes or so, and said he was totally cool, didn't act like big shit at all, and even let him get a few pictures. That kind of surprised me in a good way.

Re: Most Disappointed in an Athlete
 

[quote=SmootSmack;636987][B]Whether we want to admit it, and whether it's right, we put pro athletes at a higher pedestal than we put even ourselves and expect them to be beyond reproach[/B].

I have, I think, a bit of a unique perspective having been around pro athletes for much of the past decade on a daily basis. And I've told here about my personal experiences with Darrell Green and finding him to be less than the person I thought he was (still doesn't take away from what I think of him as a player or what he meant to Redskins fans). It was very disappointing, but in a way it was good because it was so early in my career that it prepared me moving forward. I should say I've been pleasantly surprised as well.

Anyway, my question is when have you been most disappointed with an athlete. And I'm not really talking about on-field performance. I'm talking about their actions off the field. Though if you want to include something like Palmeiro using steroids, that would count.

Was it finding out Mickey Mantle was an alcoholic who allegedly beat his kids, was it finding out Kirby Puckett was a womanizer who allegedly beat his wife, was it finding out Agassi was a druggie in his prime, was it finding out about Tiger, was it something else? Has it never happened? And maybe it was a college player, not necessarily an NFL player.[/quote]

I don't.

Re: Most Disappointed in an Athlete
 

[quote=GMScud;637191]I met AJ Pierzynski in Gainesville a few times. He's totally a dude's dude. Very cool, very talkative, and even did a few shots with me at the bar. (He's a huge Gator fan and his little brother goes to school at UF).[/quote]

Kinda funny AJ is universally hated in MLB because he's a giant ass supposedly. Like he is the most hated player in the league.

Re: Most Disappointed in an Athlete
 

[quote=FRPLG;637221]Kinda funny AJ is universally hated in MLB because he's a giant ass supposedly. Like he is the most hated player in the league.[/quote]

I know. That's why it was such a pleasant surprise. Maybe he's just a dick on the field. Maybe that's his thing. I haven't met too many pro athletes, but he was by far the coolest.

Re: Most Disappointed in an Athlete
 

[quote=Schneed10;637007]I've got issues with the premise. Fine thread, because a lot of people do put athletes on a pedastal, and do somehow get disappointed by athletes (or other celebrities) on a personal level.

I personally can't understand that, but that's just me. I want the Redskins to win desperately, and I do like when they're good guys. But I only care about their character and their actions to the extent that they disrupt the team's ability to win games.

When I learned John Riggins was out drinking before big games, I didn't care. Why? Because he was awesome, and the 'Skins won with him. If they had lost because of that stuff, I'd care.

But if Tiger Woods cheats on his wife, or Jason Campbell decides to smoke pot, Jimmy cracked corn and I don't care. I appreciate them for what they do on the field. That's where it ends, I don't know them as a person. And for me to pretend like I do or should is somewhat silly.[/quote]

Excellent post schneed.
I agree with everything, and would like to add, I think most people that do put athletes on a pedastal are a tad bit delusional and don't see them as actual people. Being an athlete is their job and performing well has absolutely nothing to do with who you are. You could be the biggest prick on the planet and play a great game. See Ty Cobb. I had the benefit of knowing several celebrities as a child (and being related to some), and grew up with a close friend (Mike Glavine) with a big time brother (Tom) that we hung out with all the time and played wiffle ball etc. I like Tom, don't get me wrong, but he is not what people think he is. He is an every day guy with every day issues. He loses his temper like all of us, he makes mistakes like all of us. He's done things that you would have NEVER expected, and don't need to be mentioned. He, like the rest of us, have done dumb things, he is after all human!

Re: Most Disappointed in an Athlete
 

[quote=jsarno;637233]Excellent post schneed.
I agree with everything, and would like to add, I think most people that do put athletes on a pedastal are a tad bit delusional and don't see them as actual people. Being an athlete is their job and performing well has absolutely nothing to do with who you are. You could be the biggest prick on the planet and play a great game. See Ty Cobb. I had the benefit of knowing several celebrities as a child (and being related to some), and grew up with a close friend (Mike Glavine) with a big time brother (Tom) that we hung out with all the time and played wiffle ball etc. I like Tom, don't get me wrong, but he is not what people think he is. He is an every day guy with every day issues. He loses his temper like all of us, he makes mistakes like all of us. He's done things that you would have NEVER expected, and don't need to be mentioned. He, like the rest of us, have done dumb things, he is after all human![/quote]

So, with all that being said, the disappointment in athletes that I have, are the ones that squander their gifts. Being someone that could have made it pro had it not been for a devastating shoulder injury, I hate to see these players throwing their hard earned careers away for dumb actions. Aka, Plaxico Burress. It's one thing to lose your career due to injury, it's TOTALLY another to lose it because you are just too high and mighty to think rules apply to you. Even so, I'm not "disappointed" per se, I shake my head that these people throw away the greatest opportunities of their lives. And for what?
Tiger having affairs has not changed my opinion of him at all. The man is human, and he has the most beautiful women in the world thowing themselves at him...we can't imagine how hard it is to say no. Tiger isn't throwing anything away other than money / endorsements, he's still a missively skilled golf player, the best this world has EVER seen, he will continue to be so.

Re: Most Disappointed in an Athlete
 

[quote=jsarno;637233]Excellent post schneed.
I agree with everything, and would like to add, I think most people that do put athletes on a pedastal are a tad bit delusional and don't see them as actual people. Being an athlete is their job and performing well has absolutely nothing to do with who you are. You could be the biggest prick on the planet and play a great game. See Ty Cobb. I had the benefit of knowing several celebrities as a child (and being related to some), and grew up with a close friend (Mike Glavine) with a big time brother (Tom) that we hung out with all the time and played wiffle ball etc. I like Tom, don't get me wrong, but he is not what people think he is. He is an every day guy with every day issues. He loses his temper like all of us, he makes mistakes like all of us. He's done things that you would have NEVER expected, and don't need to be mentioned. He, like the rest of us, have done dumb things, he is after all human![/quote]

[IMG]http://www.curatormagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/shrek.jpg[/IMG]

Re: Most Disappointed in an Athlete
 

[quote=Schneed10;637248][IMG]http://www.curatormagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/shrek.jpg[/IMG][/quote]

What part are you confused about?

Re: Most Disappointed in an Athlete
 

[quote=jsarno;637237]So, with all that being said, the disappointment in athletes that I have, are the ones that squander their gifts. Being someone that could have made it pro had it not been for a devastating shoulder injury, I hate to see these players throwing their hard earned careers away for dumb actions. Aka, Plaxico Burress. It's one thing to lose your career due to injury, it's TOTALLY another to lose it because you are just too high and mighty to think rules apply to you. Even so, I'm not "disappointed" per se, I shake my head that these people throw away the greatest opportunities of their lives. And for what?
Tiger having affairs has not changed my opinion of him at all. The man is human, and he has the most beautiful women in the world thowing themselves at him...we can't imagine how hard it is to say no. Tiger isn't throwing anything away other than money / endorsements, he's still a missively skilled golf player, the best this world has EVER seen, he will continue to be so.[/quote]

SQUAWK!


[IMG]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_l3fepOGyiK4/SJMnAypCjPI/AAAAAAAAASs/j49e6zJd23c/s400/parrot5.gif[/IMG]

Re: Most Disappointed in an Athlete
 

I can't think of any specific example right now but generally what disappoints me is when someone doesn't admit to what they did wrong, whatever it is. As a society I think we're very forgiving if that person just admits to what they did and apologizes as soon as possible.

Re: Most Disappointed in an Athlete
 

[quote=Schneed10;637262]SQUAWK!


[IMG]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_l3fepOGyiK4/SJMnAypCjPI/AAAAAAAAASs/j49e6zJd23c/s400/parrot5.gif[/IMG][/quote]

lol I like the stars, very patriotic

Re: Most Disappointed in an Athlete
 

[quote=Mattyk72;637265]I can't think of any specific example right now but generally what disappoints me is when someone doesn't admit to what they did wrong, whatever it is. As a society I think we're very forgiving if that person just admits to what they did and apologizes as soon as possible.[/quote]

That's a fair point. I do get irked when people cover things up.

In the case of Tiger, I don't think he owes us an apology. I think he owes Elin an apology. That said, he did publicly apologize to her and his family for transgressions, and I think everyone knows what that means. So maybe Elin will forgive him.

I dunno, all I know is I can't wait to watch him when the US Open comes to my hometown at Merion in 2013.

Re: Most Disappointed in an Athlete
 

[quote=Schneed10;637270]That's a fair point. I do get irked when people cover things up.

In the case of Tiger, I don't think he owes us an apology. I think he owes Elin an apology. That said, he did publicly apologize to her and his family for transgressions, and I think everyone knows what that means. So maybe Elin will forgive him.

I dunno, all I know is I can't wait to watch him when the US Open comes to my hometown at Merion in 2013.[/quote]

Yeah I agree about Tiger, he doesn't owe anybody anything expect his family. I do find it an amazing story to follow though. I mean who would have expected Tiger Woods of all people to be living this double life? It's fascinating.

Re: Most Disappointed in an Athlete
 

[quote=Schneed10;637262]SQUAWK!


[IMG]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_l3fepOGyiK4/SJMnAypCjPI/AAAAAAAAASs/j49e6zJd23c/s400/parrot5.gif[/IMG][/quote]

allllrighty. No clue what you're getting at.

Re: Most Disappointed in an Athlete
 

[IMG]http://www.funmaza.com/fun/pictures/parrot.jpg[/IMG]

Re: Most Disappointed in an Athlete
 

Speaking of birds, I had a Bald Eagle sitting in the trees in my front yard this morning. Cool stuff...I think he was waiting for my wifes poodle

Re: Most Disappointed in an Athlete
 

[quote=Schneed10;637007]I've got issues with the premise. Fine thread, because a lot of people do put athletes on a pedastal, and do somehow get disappointed by athletes (or other celebrities) on a personal level.

I personally can't understand that, but that's just me. I want the Redskins to win desperately, and I do like when they're good guys. But I only care about their character and their actions to the extent that they disrupt the team's ability to win games.

When I learned John Riggins was out drinking before big games, I didn't care. Why? Because he was awesome, and the 'Skins won with him. If they had lost because of that stuff, I'd care.

But if Tiger Woods cheats on his wife, or Jason Campbell decides to smoke pot, Jimmy cracked corn and I don't care. I appreciate them for what they do on the field. That's where it ends, I don't know them as a person. And for me to pretend like I do or should is somewhat silly.[/quote]
I agree with Sneed and the only celebrity I can think of is Chuck Berry as he treats people like 3rd rate crap and I have seen this twice so it was not him just having a bad day.

Re: Most Disappointed in an Athlete
 

Two cool celebs that I have meet and worked with a few times over the years at the Newport Jazz Festival, are Little Richard and Ray Charles.

Litttle Richard did everything on his own when he stayed at the hotel. He had his people but they really didn't help with every little thing. The man loved Shrimp Fried Rice, Iwas his assigned helper one year and he asked me to get him the rice from my from place on the island. Told me get one for you and one for me, so I did. I ate lunch with him in his room for about an hour just talking crap. It was a good time.

Ray was very nice as well but much more private. He liked to sit in his room with the shades drawn, assuming the light hurt his eyes, and he would just put on the jazz station on the clock radio and listen to it most the night.

Also, the Indgo Girls were pretty nice as well.

Re: Most Disappointed in an Athlete
 

[quote=firstdown;637293]I agree with Sneed and the only celebrity I can think of is Chuck Berry as he treats people like 3rd rate crap and I have seen this twice so it was not him just having a bad day.[/quote]

And he never gave his cousin Marvin any credit...nor Marty for that matter

Re: Most Disappointed in an Athlete
 

[quote=SmootSmack;637309]And he never gave his cousin Marvin any credit...nor Marty for that matter[/quote]

THAT'S humor...........

Re: Most Disappointed in an Athlete
 

[quote=Hog1;637292]Speaking of birds, I had a Bald Eagle sitting in the trees in my front yard this morning. Cool stuff...I think he was waiting for my wifes poodle[/quote]

Eagles are nasty predators and scrounges! The Bald Eagle that lives in my neighborhood eats dead deer. He's as fat as a tick too!

Re: Most Disappointed in an Athlete
 

[quote=Trample the Elderly;637312]Eagles are nasty predators and scrounges! The Bald Eagle that lives in my neighborhood eats dead deer. He's as fat as a tick too![/quote]

They are definately ferocious looking. I would not want to go claw to claw with one. My son volunteers at a local conservation group (the Conservancy) in wild animal rescue. They are rehabbing one right now. He says the bird is huge

Re: Most Disappointed in an Athlete
 

[quote=Trample the Elderly;637312]Eagles are nasty predators and scrounges! The Bald Eagle that lives in my neighborhood eats dead deer. He's as fat as a tick too![/quote]

There are bald eagles in VA? Shit, I thought you'd have to go out in the middle of BFE Iowa or something to see an Eagle. Pretty cool.