The next four games may determine Zorn's fate.
 

This is it. Trial by fire. After the next four games, I think Dan Snyder may decide whether or not to continue with Jim Zorn as HC of the Redskins.

At the start of the season, I started a thread where I stated my belief that the Redskins needed to start 4-2 to make the playoffs. That's because the early part of their schedule is as soft as the remainder of their schedule is hard. I still believe that.

Nevertheless, at that time, it never crossed my mind that Zorn might not make it past the Redskins' bye week as HC. Now I think that is a very real possibility.

At this point, it seems to me that its not just a matter of how many games out of the next four Zorn wins that may determine his fate but also which of those games he wins, the manner in which they are won, and the reaction of the fan base to those games.

Zorn might survive a 3-4 record at the break depending on how that record is achieved but I don't like his chances of surviving a 2-5 record.

One big problem Zorn has is that three of the next four games are at home. Yes, that's a problem. First of all, the Redskins don't seem to play any better at home than they do away, so being at home probably won't help them. Nevertheless, they'll be expected to perform well and win at home. Secondly, if the Redskins lose at home, or even play poorly and still win at home, they'll no doubt be showered with boos by the fans. The booing must be getting embarrassing for Dan Snyder and the rest of the organization and it might prompt DS to make a change.

Let me give you an example of what I mean when I say that which of the next four games Zorn wins could make a big difference in determining his fate. Let's assume that the Redskins lose at home to TB and lose at Carolina but then beat KC and Philly back-to-back at home. In that case, there would be a couple of terrible weeks to suffer through but, after that, if Zorn makes some changes and the Skins win the next two at home against KC and Philly, he might just survive.

On the other hand, even if Zorn beats TB and Carolina in the next two weeks, if he loses back-to back home games to KC and Philly, then it will appear that things have regressed and he could be gone at the break.

Right now, I think that Jim Zorn's career is in critical condition. It's touch and go and very complicated, but we'll probably be able to make a prognosis for his career at the Redskins' bye week. I hope he pulls through.

Re: The next four games may determine Zorn's fate.
 

His career was in trouble the minute Shanahan, Holmgren, and Chucky became available. I am not sure what will keep his job short of a NFC championship or super bowl appearance. It stinks to say that, and honestly I dont know how to feel about this staff. I think Zorn in a bright football person, and can turn things around in time. In my deepest of hearts I want to keep a staff for more than two years, let them develop into a team with chemistry, let zorn and Campbell grow ala Zorn and hasselbach, ala Reid and McNabb. This organization gives up too quickly on coaching staffs and starts talking the next guy. I really want Zorn to work out, he's young and I think will be a good coach in this league. But, Snyder had to realize that this guy is who he is, right now! He was a QB coach, thats it. never called plays, never designed game plans, never had all the meetings and responsiblity that is involved. That is why I think you need to give this guy more than two seasons. The offense is getting better, except the redzone. Jasons numbers have improved, he looks better and will get better as he gets comfortable. This is something this organization needs. A coach that can grow with the team, the team that can grow with the coach.

Re: The next four games may determine Zorn's fate.
 

[quote=#56fanatic;599777]His career was in trouble the minute Shanahan, Holmgren, and Chucky became available. I am not sure what will keep his job short of a NFC championship or super bowl appearance. It stinks to say that, and honestly I dont know how to feel about this staff. I think Zorn in a bright football person, and can turn things around in time. In my deepest of hearts I want to keep a staff for more than two years, let them develop into a team with chemistry, let zorn and Campbell grow ala Zorn and hasselbach, ala Reid and McNabb. This organization gives up too quickly on coaching staffs and starts talking the next guy. I really want Zorn to work out, he's young and I think will be a good coach in this league. But, Snyder had to realize that this guy is who he is, right now! He was a QB coach, thats it. never called plays, never designed game plans, never had all the meetings and responsiblity that is involved. That is why I think you need to give this guy more than two seasons. The offense is getting better, except the redzone. Jasons numbers have improved, he looks better and will get better as he gets comfortable. This is something this organization needs. A coach that can grow with the team, the team that can grow with the coach.[/quote]

True Dat.:food-smil

Re: The next four games may determine Zorn's fate.
 

[quote=#56fanatic;599777]His career was in trouble the minute Shanahan, Holmgren, and Chucky became available. I am not sure what will keep his job short of a NFC championship or super bowl appearance. It stinks to say that, and honestly I dont know how to feel about this staff. I think Zorn in a bright football person, and can turn things around in time. In my deepest of hearts I want to keep a staff for more than two years, let them develop into a team with chemistry, let zorn and Campbell grow ala Zorn and hasselbach, ala Reid and McNabb. This organization gives up too quickly on coaching staffs and starts talking the next guy. I really want Zorn to work out, he's young and I think will be a good coach in this league. But, Snyder had to realize that this guy is who he is, right now! He was a QB coach, thats it. never called plays, never designed game plans, never had all the meetings and responsiblity that is involved. That is why I think you need to give this guy more than two seasons. The offense is getting better, except the redzone. Jasons numbers have improved, he looks better and will get better as he gets comfortable. This is something this organization needs. A coach that can grow with the team, the team that can grow with the coach.[/quote]

I understand how you feel but I didn't intend for this thread be about whether or not Zorn will get another [U]season[/U].

What I'm saying is that I now believe that Zorn may get fired [U]prior to the bye week[/U], based on the reasons I stated. What do you think about the possibility of that happening?

Re: The next four games may determine Zorn's fate.
 

I think he makes it to the bye week. If we're 1-6 at that point, a change could come. Even then I don't think it's a guarantee.

Re: The next four games may determine Zorn's fate.
 

[quote=Mattyk72;599804]I think he makes it to the bye week. If we're 1-6 at that point, a change could come. Even then I don't think it's a guarantee.[/quote]

Are you sure that you don't want to reconsider that opinion?

If this team is 1-6 at the bye week, that would mean that we lost to at least three teams (Detroit, KC, and Tampa) that are certifiably terrible and one other (Carolina) that may be mired in a dismal winless season by the time we play them.

If we're 1-6 at the bye, it's possible that we would then be the only team that any of those four teams had beaten this season and we would have lost five straight games during the easy part of our schedule - three of them at home.

At that point, I'm pretty sure that Zorn would be fired immediately. We're talking about what Dan Snyder, not Job, might do.

Re: The next four games may determine Zorn's fate.
 

Isn't Zorn also the QB Coach and Offensive Coordinator?

So by removing Zorn, the organization would have to replace 3 people in mid season?

I agree, that, if a major improvement does not take place that Zorn could be let go during the bye week. But even then it is a drastic measure and it could mean that Snyder has written off the season at that point.

To bring in 3 new people after a coach firing because of all the hats he wears is pretty risky.

Re: The next four games may determine Zorn's fate.
 

I see us possibly beating KC and that's it. 2-5 by the break. Will DS have a knee jerk reaction? My gut tells me no only cause he wants the perseption to be he plaid out the season like a good owner and was forced to make a change. Then whoever he brings in will be a blessing to the fans and the HC can pick co-ordinators from other teams if need be to fill coaching spots. To bring someone in mid season would leave whatever HC with the same coaching assistants and no one would know Zorn's scheme as well as Zorn.

Maybe he has Shanahan on speed dial. Maybe he has spoken with him and told him to get a field of coach's ready in case he has to make a mid season change. but whoever is brought in can't touch other teams coach's right now until the end of the season. So it would almost be best to just let Zorn ride out this storm and then let whoever the new HC is be able to create his own staff as well as being able to bring in their guys from other teams if need be.

I would assume Shanahan would want to bring in his son who is working for the Texans right now and can't be touched until season's end. Unless the Texans give permission.

Re: The next four games may determine Zorn's fate.
 

Maybe thats why the plane was in Denver even though the organization is denying speaking with Shanahan.

My favorite would be Marty as GM and his son as HC. but I think DS is becoming good friends with Shanahan so if need be Shanahan can take over at some point.

Re: The next four games may determine Zorn's fate.
 

I don't entirely understand the Rooney rule but I'm not sure if we can just hire Shanahan mid-season just like that

Re: The next four games may determine Zorn's fate.
 

If Zorn were to be fired at the bye week, I would expect there to be an interim coach for the rest of the season.

Re: The next four games may determine Zorn's fate.
 

[quote=KI Skins Fan;599828]If Zorn were to be fired at the bye week, I would expect there to be an interim coach for the rest of the season.[/quote]

I agree. Bringing in someone from the outside would be almost unheard of. Does anyone know if something like that has happened before?

Re: The next four games may determine Zorn's fate.
 

[quote=SmootSmack;599826]I don't entirely understand the Rooney rule but I'm not sure if we can just hire Shanahan mid-season just like that[/quote]

I don't think we can. I'm in no way racist, but I think the Rooney rule is crap. Teams should be able to hire whomever they feel will do the best job leading their franchise, completely independent of ethnicity. With this rule, a team that may already have their mind made up on a coach has to interview a minority candidate just because. In cases like this it's a totally fake interview and a waste of time for both parties.

I highly doubt guys like Lovie Smith and Mike Tomlin have their jobs because the Rooney rule bought them an interview. They are head coaches because they are damn good at what they do. Skill level should get you an interview, not skin color.

Re: The next four games may determine Zorn's fate.
 

[quote=Mattyk72;599829]I agree. Bringing in someone from the outside would be almost unheard of. Does anyone know if something like that has happened before?[/quote]

I can't ever remember it happening. Actually, when was the last time a coach got fired mid-season at all? That in itself is a very rare occurrence, let alone giving the guy a boot and bringing in an outsider. I think the only guy out there that would work for us in that regard would be Gruden. He runs the same system and has never been one to insist on GM-like control over personnel. But he's not that dumb. He wouldn't come here under those circumstances.

[quote=SBXVII;599821]Maybe thats why the plane was in Denver even though the organization is denying speaking with Shanahan.

My favorite would be Marty as GM and his son as HC. [B]but I think DS is becoming good friends with Shanahan so if need be Shanahan can take over at some point[/B].[/quote]

You think DS is becoming good friends with Shanahan based soley on the fact that his plane was spotted in Denver and he supposedly wasn't even on it? Nah.

Re: The next four games may determine Zorn's fate.
 

[quote=GMScud;599873]I can't ever remember it happening.[B] Actually, when was the last time a coach got fired mid-season at all? [/B]That in itself is a very rare occurrence, let alone giving the guy a boot and bringing in an outsider. I think the only guy out there that would work for us in that regard would be Gruden. He runs the same system and has never been one to insist on GM-like control over personnel. But he's not that dumb. He wouldn't come here under those circumstances.[/quote]

What do you mean? Didn't three coaches get fired mid-season last year?

Re: The next four games may determine Zorn's fate.
 

Mike Nolan got canned 7 games in last year. It's not uncommon at all.

Re: The next four games may determine Zorn's fate.
 

[quote=SmootSmack;599878]What do you mean? Didn't three coaches get fired mid-season last year?[/quote]

Yeah, my fault. I had a brain cramp. I was sitting here thinking and couldn't come up with one. Ugh. Looks like I'll be having a cup of coffee with lunch.

Aside from Nolan, who were the other two?

Re: The next four games may determine Zorn's fate.
 

[quote=GMScud;599882]Yeah, my fault. I had a brain cramp. I was sitting here thinking and couldn't come up with one. Ugh. Looks like I'll be having a cup of coffee with lunch.

Aside from Nolan, who were the other two?[/quote]

Lane Kiffin and Scott Linehan

Re: The next four games may determine Zorn's fate.
 

[quote=SmootSmack;599883]Lane Kiffin and Scott Linehan[/quote]

True. Well, I don't think there's a Mike Singletary type candidate on our staff who can step in, and I don't think Oakland or St. Louis were any better in the short term after firing those two guys.

I guess this could sort of make a case for not canning Zorn mid-season.

Re: The next four games may determine Zorn's fate.
 

You know what would be just great? Name Stan Hixon interim head coach :)

Re: The next four games may determine Zorn's fate.
 

As opposed to firing Jim Zorn. How about giving him some help. Hire a full time offensive coordinator that can take over the play calling responsibilities. Unfortunately, that would require Zorn to admit that he is failing in that role.

Re: The next four games may determine Zorn's fate.
 

[quote=KI Skins Fan;599813]Are you sure that you don't want to reconsider that opinion?

If this team is 1-6 at the bye week, that would mean that we lost to at least three teams (Detroit, KC, and Tampa) that are certifiably terrible and one other (Carolina) that may be mired in a dismal winless season by the time we play them.

If we're 1-6 at the bye, it's possible that we would then be the only team that any of those four teams had beaten this season and we would have lost five straight games during the easy part of our schedule - three of them at home.

At that point, I'm pretty sure that Zorn would be fired immediately. We're talking about what Dan Snyder, not Job, might do.[/quote]

I would agree that, if the team is in fact 1-6 at the bye week, Zorn will most likely be fired. And I'm not sure that the firing in that circumstance would be the result of a real or imagined shoot-from-the-hip nature of Snyder. Because a 1-6 record would virtually guarantee a firing at least at the end of the season, I think there would be a legitimate front office concern that the maintaining of the status quo might raise the possibility of shots fired back and forth between players and the coaching staff, all of whom will see the writing on the wall and will let loose any frustration they may have built up over the past 19 games. Such an environment, lasting nine weeks, wouldn't do anybody any good, and in fact, only bad things could come of it.

But I also think that it would require this worst-case scenario to get Zorn fired at the break. As others have said, it will be an interim coach who replaces Zorn if he's fired mid-season, meaning that the coach will merely be a caretaker one. So, while, on the one hand, the FO would want to avoid the possible damage that might stem from a really bad environment at Redskins Park that would shape if we were at 1-6, firing Zorn at mid-season would essentially be the FO's giving up on the season, which, even if we're 3-4 at the break, might be a little premature and could invite the same criticism Snyder got when he fired Norv before the end of the year. Yes, our schedule will only get tougher from that point on, but still, raising the white flag at that point might be too soon.

And if we're 2-5? I have no clue. That's the situation where FO people earn their money.

Re: The next four games may determine Zorn's fate.
 

[quote=#56fanatic;599777]His career was in trouble the minute Shanahan, Holmgren, and Chucky became available. I am not sure what will keep his job short of a NFC championship or super bowl appearance. It stinks to say that, and honestly I dont know how to feel about this staff. I think Zorn in a bright football person, and can turn things around in time. In my deepest of hearts I want to keep a staff for more than two years, let them develop into a team with chemistry, let zorn and Campbell grow ala Zorn and hasselbach, ala Reid and McNabb. This organization gives up too quickly on coaching staffs and starts talking the next guy. I really want Zorn to work out, he's young and I think will be a good coach in this league. But, Snyder had to realize that this guy is who he is, right now! He was a QB coach, thats it. never called plays, never designed game plans, never had all the meetings and responsiblity that is involved. That is why I think you need to give this guy more than two seasons. The offense is getting better, except the redzone. Jasons numbers have improved, he looks better and will get better as he gets comfortable. This is something this organization needs. A coach that can grow with the team, the team that can grow with the coach.[/quote]


One of the more sensible ideas puy forth, and something the more patient fan has been suggesting for a long time.

Re: The next four games may determine Zorn's fate.
 

I think his fate is already

Re: The next four games may determine Zorn's fate.
 

[quote=SmootSmack;599826]I don't entirely understand the Rooney rule but I'm not sure if we can just hire Shanahan mid-season just like that[/quote]

That's my point. The Rooney rule just means we have to interview a minority for the position.

but there is a rule in regards to talking to other teams coach's during the season or it's tampering. Unless the other team allows us to speak with him. The problem is he's so productive I doubt the Jets would say yeah go ahead.

Re: The next four games may determine Zorn's fate.
 

[quote=GMScud;599873]I can't ever remember it happening. Actually, when was the last time a coach got fired mid-season at all? That in itself is a very rare occurrence, let alone giving the guy a boot and bringing in an outsider. I think the only guy out there that would work for us in that regard would be Gruden. He runs the same system and has never been one to insist on GM-like control over personnel. But he's not that dumb. He wouldn't come here under those circumstances.



You think DS is becoming good friends with Shanahan based soley on the fact that his plane was spotted in Denver and he supposedly wasn't even on it? Nah.[/quote]

Perhaps I'm wrong ...again. I should have said Cerrato seemed comfortable enough with Shanny to call him up, and I doubt it was totally in regards to Alridge. I like Alridge a lot. Glad the picked him up. but find it interesting they would contact Shanny in regards to him. Almost feels like maybe someone was feeling out Shanny in regards to his coaching desires and yes Alridge probably did come up or perhaps Alridge first then the other.

Re: The next four games may determine Zorn's fate.
 

I could see Sherman Smith honestly taking over in the interim until next year...

Re: The next four games may determine Zorn's fate.
 

[quote=BringBackJoeT;599918]I would agree that, if the team is in fact 1-6 at the bye week, Zorn will most likely be fired. And I'm not sure that the firing in that circumstance would be the result of a real or imagined shoot-from-the-hip nature of Snyder. [B]Because a 1-6 record would virtually guarantee a firing at least at the end of the season, I think there would be a legitimate front office concern that the maintaining of the status quo might raise the possibility of shots fired back and forth between players and the coaching staff, all of whom will see the writing on the wall and will let loose any frustration they may have built up over the past 19 games. Such an environment, lasting nine weeks, wouldn't do anybody any good, and in fact, only bad things could come of it.[/B]

But I also think that it would require this worst-case scenario to get Zorn fired at the break. As others have said, it will be an interim coach who replaces Zorn if he's fired mid-season, meaning that the coach will merely be a caretaker one. So, while, on the one hand, the FO would want to avoid the possible damage that might stem from a really bad environment at Redskins Park that would shape if we were at 1-6, [B]firing Zorn at mid-season would essentially be the FO's giving up on the season[/B], which, even if we're 3-4 at the break, might be a little premature and could invite the same criticism Snyder got when he fired Norv before the end of the year. Yes, our schedule will only get tougher from that point on, but still, raising the white flag at that point might be too soon.

And if we're 2-5? I have no clue. That's the situation where FO people earn their money.[/quote]

You made some good points. I'd like to comment on the two points I highlighted.

I think it is a commonly held management belief that once an executive has made up his mind to fire a manager, it's better to do it right away. There are numerous reasons for believing that is the right course of action. I'll mention a couple: First, if you're going down the wrong road there is no sense in continuing down that road. Second, it's very hard to maintain a satisfactory working relationship between the executive and the manager he's decided to fire and, soon enough, it will become apparent to the employees that the manager is a lame duck.

Yes, I agree that if Zorn were to be fired at midseason that, in effect, Dan Snyder would be giving up on the season. But I don't think Zorn would be fired simply because of a poor record. He would be fired because of a poor record and also because Snyder had the sense that the players, as a group, had lost their trust and confidence in their HC and had given up on him. In that case, the season is lost anyway.

Re: The next four games may determine Zorn's fate.
 

[quote=GMScud;599896]True. Well, I don't think there's a Mike Singletary type candidate on our staff who can step in, and I don't think Oakland or St. Louis were any better in the short term after firing those two guys.

I guess this could sort of make a case for not canning Zorn mid-season.[/quote]

Which is my other point. If Zorn got canned who else understands Zorn's system enough to take it over and be productive? I'm guessing no one since he was teaching the coach's all last yr as well as the players.

Whoever came in mid season out side the organization would be at a serious disadvantage. Then if things don't look good the rest of the season DS runs the risk of alienating the new HC with the fans complaining about him not changing or fixing the problem. DS's best bet now is to wait till end of season with a HC in mind then cut Zorn. Let the new HC decide who he would want to keep on the coaching staff (hopefully not Hixon) and let the new HC bring in his people. People who know/understand what he's trying to do and can help teach the players.

Re: The next four games may determine Zorn's fate.
 

[quote=SmootSmack;599898]You know what would be just great? Name Stan Hixon interim head coach :)[/quote]

ROFLMAO. WOW. where did that come from? I mean if we can rejoice in the teams greatness then we might as well laugh at it's incompatence. ;)

Re: The next four games may determine Zorn's fate.
 

[quote=sandtrapjack;599819]Isn't Zorn also the QB Coach and Offensive Coordinator?

So by removing Zorn, the organization would have to replace 3 people in mid season?

I agree, that, if a major improvement does not take place that Zorn could be let go during the bye week. But even then it is a drastic measure and it could mean that Snyder has written off the season at that point.

To bring in 3 new people after a coach firing because of all the hats he wears is pretty risky.[/quote]

Sherman Smith is suppose to be the offensive coordinator, if we bring in Mike Holmgren then the westcoast terminology stays the same and he understands the QB coaching position better than Zorn. Campbell hasn't learned a damn thing when it comes to technique, so we can wing the QB coach position.

Re: The next four games may determine Zorn's fate.
 

[quote=TheMalcolmConnection;599989]I could see Sherman Smith honestly taking over in the interim until next year...[/quote]

Umm, No. Sherman Smith is supposed to be the OC. He's the one up in the booth supposedly calling the plays. I know and you know he's not, but even he is not able to fix the problem. Unless Zorn is so wrapped around himself he is not listening to any of his offensive advisors?

Re: The next four games may determine Zorn's fate.
 

I didn't say he'd fix the problem, I just said I think he's interim coach until the next season.

Re: The next four games may determine Zorn's fate.
 

[quote=cocoajoey;599943]I think his fate is already[/quote]

Since the first day with the Red, Black, and Yellow. ;)

Re: The next four games may determine Zorn's fate.
 

[quote=TheMalcolmConnection;600016]I didn't say he'd fix the problem, I just said I think he's interim coach until the next season.[/quote]

Yeah it might work. It would definitly show a sign to the fans that DS has bigger plans in the offseason.

Re: The next four games may determine Zorn's fate.
 

[quote=SmootSmack;599898]You know what would be just great? Name Stan Hixon interim head coach :)[/quote]

:eek:

Re: The next four games may determine Zorn's fate.
 

[quote=SBXVII;599987]Perhaps I'm wrong ...again. I should have said Cerrato seemed comfortable enough with Shanny to call him up, and I doubt it was totally in regards to Alridge. I like Alridge a lot. Glad the picked him up. but find it interesting they would contact Shanny in regards to him. Almost feels like maybe someone was feeling out Shanny in regards to his coaching desires and yes Alridge probably did come up or perhaps Alridge first then the other.[/quote]
Shanahan and Cerrato have a long standing relationship/friendship dating back to their SF days (also Vinny and Holmgren). That's one of the things that may keep him around, even if there is a major shakeup with one of them.

As to the Sherman Smith questions, he devises the game plan every week but JZ is the sole play caller.

The more I think about it, I doubt there will be an in season change. There's really no point to it unless DS is going to bring in someone at a higher level to evaluate and set the course for the overall football operations a la Parcells in Miami in '07.

Re: The next four games may determine Zorn's fate.
 

[quote=SBXVII;599987]Perhaps I'm wrong ...again. I should have said Cerrato seemed comfortable enough with Shanny to call him up, and I doubt it was totally in regards to Alridge. I like Alridge a lot. Glad the picked him up. but find it interesting they would contact Shanny in regards to him. Almost feels like maybe someone was feeling out Shanny in regards to his coaching desires and yes Alridge probably did come up or perhaps Alridge first then the other.[/quote]

I'm pretty sure Shanahan reached out to Vinny. Either way it's not an uncommon thing to talk to former coaches of players to find out more about them.

Re: The next four games may determine Zorn's fate.
 

Well yea I would say If we lose to Josh Johnson and the bucs he's gone asap!

Re: The next four games may determine Zorn's fate.
 

[quote=Paintrain;600109]Shanahan and Cerrato have a long standing relationship/friendship dating back to their SF days (also Vinny and Holmgren). That's one of the things that may keep him around, even if there is a major shakeup with one of them.

As to the Sherman Smith questions, he devises the game plan every week but JZ is the sole play caller.

The more I think about it, I doubt there will be an in season change. There's really no point to it [B]unless DS is going to bring in someone at a higher level to evaluate and set the course for the overall football operations a la Parcells in Miami in '07.[/B][/quote]

Holmgren could be our Parcells.