Disjointed Coaching Structure
 

[COLOR=darkred]Check the appointment orgins of these coaches and gauge whether the front office has made a concerted effort at building a team that works together toward success.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=darkred]Take a look and then see if you can find another coaching heirarchy in the NFL that has this many disjointed coaches with [B]no previous working connections.[/B][/COLOR]

[COLOR=darkred]Last question...If our franchise chose to go in a different direction than Gregg Williams for Head Coach why are so many of the coaches he brought to the Redskins still apart of our football team?[/COLOR]

[COLOR=black]----------------[/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][U]Jim Zorn[/U] - Appointed by [U][I]Vinny Cerrato[/I][/U] as Head Coach in 2008 after first being signed as an offensive coordinator. Previously a QB coach with [I][U]Seattle[/U][/I].[/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][U][I]Greg Blache[/I][/U] - Brought in by [U][I]Gregg Williams[/I][/U] to DL coach in 2004. Promoted to DC in 2008 after his appointer, Gregg Williams, is not hired as head coach. Previously from [I][U]Chicago[/U][/I].[/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][U]Sherman Smith[/U] - Brought in by [U][I]Jim Zorn[/I][/U] to be offensive coordinator in 2008. Worked with Jim Zorn in [U][I]Seattle[/I][/U].[/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][U]Joe Bugel[/U] - Brought in by [U][I]Joe Gibbs 2.0[/I][/U] in 2004 as OL coach. Came back after two years out of football.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][U]Stump Mitchell[/U] - Brought in by [I][U]Jim Zorn[/U][/I] in 2008 to be RB coach. Worked with Zorn in [U][I]Seattle[/I][/U].[/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][U]Stan Hixon[/U] - Brought in by [U][I]Joe Gibbs 2.0[/I][/U] in 2004 as WR coach. Previously WR coach for [U][I]LSU Tigers[/I][/U].[/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][U]Scott Wachenheim[/U] - Brought in by [U][I]Vinny Cerrato[/I][/U] in 2009 as TE coach. Previously coached locally at [U][I]Liberty University[/I][/U].[/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][U]John Palermo[/U] - Brought in by [U][I]Vinny Ceratto[/I][/U] in 2008 to be DL coach. Previously a DL coach in the [U][I]college ranks[/I][/U] and apart of the 1988 [U][I]Notre Dame[/I][/U] National Chamionship.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][U]Kirk Olivadotti[/U] - 10 year [U][I]Redskins[/I][/U] assistant who has been internally promoted to LB coach.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][U]Jerry Gray[/U] - Brought in by [U][I]Gregg Williams[/I][/U] in 2006 to coach Secondary. Previously coached alongside Gregg in [U][I]Buffalo[/I][/U].[/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][U]Steve Jackson[/U] Brought in by [U][I]Gregg Williams[/I][/U] in 2004 to coach safties. [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Previously coached alongside Gregg in [U][I]Buffalo[/I][/U].[/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][U]Danny Smith[/U] - Brought in by [I][U]Gregg Williams[/U][/I] in 2004 to coach the Special Teams. Previously coached alongside Gregg in [U][I]Buffalo[/I][/U].[/COLOR]

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Re: Disjointed Coaching Structure
 

all bums except bugel

Re: Disjointed Coaching Structure
 

Joe has been a great O-Line coach for the Redskins but he is near the end of his career. I think this is his last season. It might be all of the coaching staffs last season.

Re: Disjointed Coaching Structure
 

[quote=skins89moss;598122]Joe has been a great O-Line coach for the Redskins but he is near the end of his career. I think this is his last season. It might be all of the coaching staffs last season.[/quote]

That'd be a great idea since they seem to have no coaching correlation to each other. Our entire staff might work together better and probably it'd be best if they answer to one overseer of the entire unit...namely a head coach...instead of one guy for the offense and one guy for the defense.

Gibbs is gone and so should that lame ass coaching structure of the Co-Head Coaches. It's not the cockpit of an airplane for god sakes...it's a head coaching position...put ONE GUY IN CHARGE OF EVERYTHING!

Don't think I don't see Zorn not having a clue as to what happens with the defense...effing ridiculous!

Re: Disjointed Coaching Structure
 

Looks like the good ol' boy system to me. And I think Joe will leave on his own after this season, if we are feed up with this crap, imagine how he must feel.

Re: Disjointed Coaching Structure
 

Well, the root of the problem is a dysfunctional franchise. A sign of problems. Hiring a coaching staff before you hire your head coach.

Re: Disjointed Coaching Structure
 

[quote=PennSkinsFan;598190]Well, the root of the problem is a dysfunctional franchise. A sign of problems. Hiring a coaching staff before you hire your head coach.[/quote]


They hired Jim Zorn as an offensive coordinator prior to naming a head coach. Tell me that isn't the dumbest thing you've ever heard. Many here tried to defend the move.

I'm ok w/ having the newly hired coach having the option of keeping a coordinator. It should be the new coach's decision though. Generally, a new coach wants to bring in his guys. JZ has no coordinator experience and Sherman Smith didn't want to come here until being convinced otherwise.

Just like Norv Turner...Jim Zorn...i like the guy, but I never liked the hire by our FO.

Amazingly they hadn't done some DUE DILIGENCE on new coaching candidates going into JG's final year. Two of the interviews we had:

Rex Ryan
Jim Schwartz

Hmmm...VC you've got to go buddy.

Re: Disjointed Coaching Structure
 

Well, the Dolphins did something very similar with Sparano

But really this comes down to the inconsistency between "moving forward" and "continuity" They probably should have just chosen one path and committed to that.

Re: Disjointed Coaching Structure
 

[quote=redsk1;598197]They hired Jim Zorn as an offensive coordinator prior to naming a head coach. Tell me that isn't the dumbest thing you've ever heard. Many here tried to defend the move.

I'm ok w/ having the newly hired coach having the option of keeping a coordinator. It should be the new coach's decision though. Generally, a new coach wants to bring in his guys. JZ has no coordinator experience and Sherman Smith didn't want to come here until being convinced otherwise.

Just like Norv Turner...Jim Zorn...i like the guy, but I never liked the hire by our FO.

Amazingly they hadn't done some DUE DILIGENCE on new coaching candidates going into JG's final year. Two of the interviews we had:

Rex Ryan
Jim Schwartz

Hmmm...VC you've got to go buddy.[/quote]

Jets may win the east and the Lions are on their way up.
Dont forget Josh McDaniels. who is looking like a fkn mastermind to this point. got picks for a QB that he didnt need and now he is building a solid team in Denver. At least he spreads the defenses out to run the ball while makin teams fear the pass. Switched them to a 3-4 and they are doing well thus far with the switch.

Re: Disjointed Coaching Structure
 

[quote=DBUCHANON101;598214]Jets may win the east and the Lions are on their way up.
Dont forget Josh McDaniels. who is looking like a fkn mastermind to this point. got picks for a QB that he didnt need and now he is building a solid team in Denver. At least he spreads the defenses out to run the ball while makin teams fear the pass. Switched them to a 3-4 and they are doing well thus far with the switch.[/quote]

Yeah, i was trying to give the other candidates some props like Ryan, Schwartz (whom i really like), and i forgot about Josh McDaniels.

Spagnola too who i'm unsold on at the moment.

Re: Disjointed Coaching Structure
 

[quote=SmootSmack;598198]Well, the Dolphins did something very similar with Sparano

But really this comes down to the inconsistency between "moving forward" and "continuity" They probably should have just chosen one path and committed to that.[/quote]

They brought in a GM though the same year as new head coach. Also the GM and head coach have a previous history working alongside each other.

Parcells and Sparano have some working history so Parcells is facilitating Sparano with any hirings.

Needless to say Cerrato hiring coaches for Zorn is way off because Cerrato has never coached before and neither had Zorn...lol. It's hard to even conceive all that going on and having faith in it...insane.

Re: Disjointed Coaching Structure
 

I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'.

[URL="http://www.examiner.com/x-8141-DC-Sports-Business-Examiner~y2009m5d13-Holmgren-would-be-ideal-as-Redskins-longawaited-GM"]Holmgren would be ideal as Redskins' long-awaited GM[/URL]

[URL="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/05/08/AR2009050803674.html"]Les Carpenter - Mike Holmgren Advises Redskins to Be Patient With Jim Zorn's Development of Jason Campbell - washingtonpost.com[/URL]

[URL="http://voices.washingtonpost.com/dcsportsbog/2008/11/holmgren_on_zorn_and_zorns_bik.html#more"]D.C. Sports Bog - Holmgren on Zorn and Zorn's Bike[/URL]

Maybe we can kill two bird with one stone, continuity & experience?

Re: Disjointed Coaching Structure
 

[quote=Skinny Tee;598559]They brought in a GM though the same year as new head coach. Also the GM and head coach have a previous history working alongside each other.

Parcells and Sparano have some working history so Parcells is facilitating Sparano with any hirings.

Needless to say Cerrato hiring coaches for Zorn is way off because Cerrato has never coached before and neither had Zorn...lol. It's hard to even conceive all that going on and having faith in it...insane.[/quote]

Not to digress but Sparano just has me thinking how strong that coaching unit back in 2001 was, or better said how prevalent they are today

Tony Sparano: Head Coach Dolphins
Brian Schottenheimer: OC Jets
Pete Carmichael: OC Saints
Hue Jackson: QB Coach Ravens
Greg Manusky: DC Niners
Mike Trgovac: D Line Coach Packers (just last year was DC for the Panthers)
Jimmy Raye: OC Niners

Bring back Marty!

Re: Disjointed Coaching Structure
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;598573]I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'.

[URL="http://www.examiner.com/x-8141-DC-Sports-Business-Examiner~y2009m5d13-Holmgren-would-be-ideal-as-Redskins-longawaited-GM"]Holmgren would be ideal as Redskins' long-awaited GM[/URL]

[URL="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/05/08/AR2009050803674.html"]Les Carpenter - Mike Holmgren Advises Redskins to Be Patient With Jim Zorn's Development of Jason Campbell - washingtonpost.com[/URL]

[URL="http://voices.washingtonpost.com/dcsportsbog/2008/11/holmgren_on_zorn_and_zorns_bik.html#more"]D.C. Sports Bog - Holmgren on Zorn and Zorn's Bike[/URL]

Maybe we can kill two bird with one stone, continuity & experience?[/quote]

Well I guess my questions would be

1. Just how good a GM is Holmgren?

2. Is he looking to come back as a GM or a Team President a la Parcells?

3. Will we bring in an experienced offensive play caller to help Zorn out?

Re: Disjointed Coaching Structure
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;598573]I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'.

[URL="http://www.examiner.com/x-8141-DC-Sports-Business-Examiner~y2009m5d13-Holmgren-would-be-ideal-as-Redskins-longawaited-GM"]Holmgren would be ideal as Redskins' long-awaited GM[/URL]

[URL="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/05/08/AR2009050803674.html"]Les Carpenter - Mike Holmgren Advises Redskins to Be Patient With Jim Zorn's Development of Jason Campbell - washingtonpost.com[/URL]

[URL="http://voices.washingtonpost.com/dcsportsbog/2008/11/holmgren_on_zorn_and_zorns_bik.html#more"]D.C. Sports Bog - Holmgren on Zorn and Zorn's Bike[/URL]

Maybe we can kill two bird with one stone, continuity & experience?[/quote]



Holmgren would be my choice for GM by a wide margin. People keep saying get rid of Zorn, Id say Vinny gotta go first.

Re: Disjointed Coaching Structure
 

[quote=SmootSmack;598592]Well I guess my questions would be

1. Just how good a GM is Holmgren?

2. Is he looking to come back as a GM or a Team President a la Parcells?

3. Will we bring in an experienced offensive play caller to help Zorn out?[/quote]

4. Will Danny keep his claws out?

Re: Disjointed Coaching Structure
 

[quote=SmootSmack;598592]Well I guess my questions would be

1. Just how good a GM is Holmgren?

2. Is he looking to come back as a GM or a Team President a la Parcells?

3. Will we bring in an experienced offensive play caller to help Zorn out?[/quote]1. I don't think he would be effective as GM & coach (if he's trying to run the offense). He's got a pretty good coaching tree and was good on the sidelines, so he knows what it takes.

2. I don't care what the title is. The responsibility is: Everything other than signing checks and marketing. Snyder can hold up the Lombardi trophy, chat with Tom Cruise, and make sure all the checks are cashed.

3. No. I think he needs to let Zorn go through the rest of the season and then decide. Zorn should be able to HC and call plays. If not, then Holmgren could hit the sidelines as HC, but delegate the coordinator positions, same as Gibbs. Or he could keep Zorn and bring in an OC, or demote Zorn to OC and bring in a new HC.

Re: Disjointed Coaching Structure
 

[quote=PennSkinsFan;598613]4. Will Danny keep his claws out?[/quote]If Snyder can get Holmgren, I'm sure it would be with that understanding.

Re: Disjointed Coaching Structure
 

[quote=SmootSmack;598588]Not to digress but Sparano just has me thinking how strong that coaching unit back in 2001 was, or better said how prevalent they are today

Tony Sparano: Head Coach Dolphins
Brian Schottenheimer: OC Jets
Pete Carmichael: OC Saints
Hue Jackson: QB Coach Ravens
Greg Manusky: DC Niners
Mike Trgovac: D Line Coach Packers (just last year was DC for the Panthers)
Jimmy Raye: OC Niners

Bring back Marty![/quote]

Seriously...

That's a great idea...If Marty Schott is appointed our GM then we'd know for a FACT that Cerrato would be gone and Snyder wouldn't be influencing our roster.

Schott may be our only hope into knowing for a fact that Snyder's influence on our roster is eliminated.

MARTY FOR PRESIDENT!

Re: Disjointed Coaching Structure
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;598620]If Snyder can get Holmgren, I'm sure it would be with that understanding.[/quote]

Probably a one year deal then. Kind of like when Schotty was sent packing, you know, it just wasn't fun. His words. It wasn't fun. That is scary stuff.

Re: Disjointed Coaching Structure
 

[quote=PennSkinsFan;598636]Probably a one year deal then. Kind of like when Schotty was sent packing, you know, it just wasn't fun. His words. It wasn't fun. That is scary stuff.[/quote]I would hope Snyder has learned from his earlier mistakes in the Pepper Rodgers / Spurrier debacle. He should give Holmgren a 5 year deal and then get out of the way.

Re: Disjointed Coaching Structure
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;598646]I would hope Snyder has learned from his earlier mistakes in the Pepper Rodgers / Spurrier debacle. He should give Holmgren a 5 year deal and then get out of the way.[/quote]

Apparently Holmgren is more interested in returning as a head coach than a general manager.

Re: Disjointed Coaching Structure
 

I don't think that Smith ever worked with Zorn in Seattle unless you mean played for a check. He was with the Oilers/Titans the whole way through until here right?

Re: Disjointed Coaching Structure
 

[quote=tryfuhl;598691]I don't think that Smith ever worked with Zorn in Seattle unless you mean played for a check. He was with the Oilers/Titans the whole way through until here right?[/quote]

[COLOR=darkred][B]Redskins.com[/B][/COLOR]
[I]"Prior to joining the Redskins, Smith spent 13 seasons as running backs coach with the Tennessee Titans (1995-2007). He also held the title of assistant head coach the last two seasons."[/I]

You're right. I took the Seattle part from it and attributed it to Zorn because of their previous playing relation.

He did come from the Titans as a RB coach but was still brought in through Zorn.

Re: Disjointed Coaching Structure
 

I don't know about all this--are other staffs less "disjointed" in the sense of the first post?

Hard to know if this matters except by comparison to successful staffs.

Re: Disjointed Coaching Structure
 

[quote=JWsleep;598705]I don't know about all this--are other staffs less "disjointed" in the sense of the first post?

Hard to know if this matters except by comparison to successful staffs.[/quote]

I think you would see similar things if you picked apart other staffs.

Not every coach on every staff falls from the same tree. Guys may not have worked together, but there are definitely "connections" with guys.

Re: Disjointed Coaching Structure
 

[quote=Mattyk72;598707]I think you would see similar things if you picked apart other staffs.

Not every coach on every staff falls from the same tree. Guys may not have worked together, but there are definitely "connections" with guys.[/quote]

It's disjointed in that here are the names of the people who brought on the current coaching staff:

Vinny Cerrato
Joe Gibbs
Gregg Williams
Jim Zorn

4 different people have brought in the current staff. Of those guys only 2 remain...both of which have no previous head coaching experience.

My contention is that there is a lack of a true leader in the coaching ranks. Blache operates apart from the offense and Zorn doesn't even overlook or contribute anything to the defensive players.

The only person right now that at least oversees all aspects is Vinny Cerrato. I think we're seeing the effects of not having a football coach in charge of all aspects of the team.

Re: Disjointed Coaching Structure
 

Bring in Eric DeCosta and let him choose the coach. So long as it's not someone from the Belicheck coaching tree I think we'll be fine.

Re: Disjointed Coaching Structure
 

[quote=Skinny Tee;598756]It's disjointed in that here are the names of the people who brought on the current coaching staff:

Vinny Cerrato
Joe Gibbs
Gregg Williams
Jim Zorn

4 different people have brought in the current staff. Of those guys only 2 remain...both of which have no previous head coaching experience.

My contention is that there is a lack of a true leader in the coaching ranks. Blache operates apart from the offense and Zorn doesn't even overlook or contribute anything to the defensive players.

The only person right now that at least oversees all aspects is Vinny Cerrato. I think we're seeing the effects of not having a football coach in charge of all aspects of the team.[/quote]

Again, I'd prefer to see how other staffs shake out before I make any hard conclusions about the Skins setup. You're taking one staff and putting it under the microscope and assuming this is the only staff in the league built this way.

It's certainly not uncommon for staffs to have holdovers from previous ones.

Re: Disjointed Coaching Structure
 

[quote=Skinny Tee;598756]It's disjointed in that here are the names of the people who brought on the current coaching staff:

Vinny Cerrato
Joe Gibbs
Gregg Williams
Jim Zorn

4 different people have brought in the current staff. Of those guys only 2 remain...both of which have no previous head coaching experience.

My contention is that there is a lack of a true leader in the coaching ranks. [B]Blache operates apart from the offense and Zorn doesn't even overlook or contribute anything to the defensive players.[/B]

The only person right now that at least oversees all aspects is Vinny Cerrato. I think we're seeing the effects of not having a football coach in charge of all aspects of the team.[/quote]

You make it sound like Zorn and Blache don't discuss defensive game plans, which is 100% not true

But Matty is right, you're basically putting this staff under the microscope and making assumptions about the rest of the league

Re: Disjointed Coaching Structure
 

[quote=Mattyk72;598796]Again, I'd prefer to see how other staffs shake out before I make any hard conclusions about the Skins setup. You're taking one staff and putting it under the microscope and assuming this is the only staff in the league built this way.

It's certainly not uncommon for staffs to have holdovers from previous ones.[/quote]

I looked at Pittsburgh coaching structure and they indeed have people who have been coaching in their ranks longer than Mike Tomlin, or not brought in by Tomlin...six I believe.

One of the differences though is most of those coaches had been coaching with the Steelers for 10+ years. The Steelers are obviously the exception because of their long coaching terms.

I agree that I should have perhaps looked over some other coaching ranks before looking into ours however we certainly do have a wide array of various coaching tangents that have all met among our ranks.

Re: Disjointed Coaching Structure
 

[quote=Chico23231;598600]Holmgren would be my choice for GM by a wide margin. People keep saying get rid of Zorn, Id say Vinny gotta go first.[/quote]


Thank You. The only good thing about this disaster is that it holds out the possibility of getting rid of the incompetent Vinny Cerratto. During his tenure we've fired Norv, hired Marty and fired Vinny, fired Marty and re-hired Vinny (after an 8-3 finish what else could we do but bring back Vinny), fired Spurrier, driven Gibbs back to racing, and will apparently fire Jim Zorn soon. All those guys have been successful at other places so maybe it's time to hold someone else accountable.

Snyderatto has created a climate at Redskins Park that is undisciplined and unworkable. It is time for Snyder to remove himself from the building, tend to other interests, and allow a competent (ready SS?) football person to have complete control. Just listen to Cerrato's radio show and tell me that he's not as dumb as they day is long. It's embarrassing.

If they fire Zorn and Vinny keeps his job nothing will change.