Kevin and Pat Williams, guilty or not?
 

[url=http://nfl.fanhouse.com/2009/07/09/see-saw-continues-judge-blocks-suspension-for-vikes-tackles/]See-Saw Continues: Judge Blocks Suspension for Vikes' Tackles -- NFL FanHouse[/url]

[QUOTE]One thing I can't help but shake in this situation is that the players still tested positive for a banned substance. A positive test is a positive test. It's not like they are being kicked out of football for life. It's a four-game suspension. Among people who discuss things like this with NFL players, it's pretty common knowledge that herds of players don't take anything like StarCaps, for fear they'll end up in the exact situation of the Vikings' two tackles.

Plus, when something is known as a steroids-masking agent, you'd think players nowadays would be paranoid to get caught with it -- for fear people would stigmatize them as a steroids-abuser (oh wait, that's [URL="http://nfl.fanhouse.com/2009/07/02/calvin-pace-another-nfl-drug-cheat-wheres-the-outrage/"][COLOR=#0000ff]only baseball players who have to worry about the stigma[/COLOR][/URL]).
[/QUOTE]


I completely disagree with the Authors sentiments here.

1. The reason that the supplement is considered banned is because it contained "bumetanide" otherwise it would be ok.

2. If the banned substance "bumetanide" is not on the label then how in the world are you supposed to know that it is in the supplement? You cannot assume that the players knew if it is not on the label.

3. If the NFL knew why didn't they notify the Teams and Players? You cannot punish people for doing wrong if they had no way of knowing that they were doing wrong.

Re: Kevin and Pat Williams, guilty or not?
 

Not guilty. The NFL seriously needs to chill out with all the BS. Soon they're not going to allow players to drink Red Bull. It so stupid.

Re: Kevin and Pat Williams, guilty or not?
 

[quote=Angry;567209][url=http://nfl.fanhouse.com/2009/07/09/see-saw-continues-judge-blocks-suspension-for-vikes-tackles/]See-Saw Continues: Judge Blocks Suspension for Vikes' Tackles -- NFL FanHouse[/url]




I completely disagree with the Authors sentiments here.

1. The reason that the supplement is considered banned is because it contained "bumetanide" otherwise it would be ok.
[/quote]
So? Most banned supplements are banned for just one thing. Whether it has 1 or 50 banned ingredients seems irrelevant to me.
[quote]
2. If the banned substance "bumetanide" is not on the label then how in the world are you supposed to know that it is in the supplement? You cannot assume that the players knew if it is not on the label.
[/quote]
I'd disagree. Players should know what's going in your body. If you take something that is banned then you suffer the consequences. They can go ahead and sue the pants off the company for mislabeling. They should. It sounds harsh but in the end everyone is responsible to KNOW WHAT IS GOING IN THEIR BODY. If they take a supplement then they are assuming a level of risk. Hell, if they ingest anything they are assuming a level of risk as it pertains to the ingredients. In the case of supplements the risk is clearly much higher than say a PB&J. I'd file it under "life is not fair". To me this draws a nice solid line for players to be aware of what is right and wrong.
[quote]
3. If the NFL knew why didn't they notify the Teams and Players? You cannot punish people for doing wrong if they had no way of knowing that they were doing wrong.[/quote]
1000000% agree. To me the argument I made about point 2 is affected by this. The league should be making every effort to be transparent with this type of information. The league's lack of candor helped prevent the players from having all the info. This shifts some blame to them.

Re: Kevin and Pat Williams, guilty or not?
 

The judge is probably a Vikes season ticket holder.

Re: Kevin and Pat Williams, guilty or not?
 

How does this thread belong in the redskins locker room?

Re: Kevin and Pat Williams, guilty or not?
 

[quote=WaldSkins;567238]How does this thread belong in the redskins locker room?[/quote]

Read the description for the locker room..."Redskins & general NFL Discussion"

Re: Kevin and Pat Williams, guilty or not?
 

Absolutely not guilty. Teams put these weight restrictions on guys just to make weight. I don't think this had anything to do with masking steroids, but with trying to drop a few pounds so their checkbooks wouldn't take a hit.

Secondly, Im not sure about the Williams', but I know the Saints guy that got it called the NFL drug hotline to ASK if he could use the product. And after 3 attempts they still hadn't called back. If the league knows about this they NEED to tell the players. The fact that the NFL can't keep someone on the phone 24 hour a day for players to be able to check up on if a substance is banned or not is a real issue.

FRPLG -- That whole knowing what goes into your body spiel doesn't cut it, in my opinion. Here's the problem, anything you take now days is so processed it has 30 different ingredients. As far as I know, the NFL doesn't even have a searchable database including the banned substances and well known products with said substances in them. That would really speed things up.

Basically, the NFL needs to do a better job of helping the players find out what substances are banned. I want to know when someone is taking steroids and have them sit. I don't want to punish someone who tried to do their homework, couldn't get an answer from the league, ends up taking a product because the training staff said go ahead, then getting a 4 game suspension.

Re: Kevin and Pat Williams, guilty or not?
 

[quote=Daseal;567266]FRPLG -- That whole knowing what goes into your body spiel doesn't cut it, in my opinion. Here's the problem, anything you take now days is so processed it has 30 different ingredients. As far as I know, the NFL doesn't even have a searchable database including the banned substances and well known products with said substances in them. That would really speed things up.[/quote]

We're just gonna disagree on this. I believe that people should be rsponsible for themselves. You ingest something then you should know what it is. You eat a tomato you know it's a tomato. You eat a steak you know a cow gave it up for you. You take a little pill with 95 different ingredients then you are rolling the dice. Whose fault is it that you took the supplement? Your own. Whether it was on the label or not doesn't much matter to me in the sense that you should be absolved from the consequences of ingesting a banned substance when you did it unknowingly. It is banned. Ignorance isn't bliss and it isn't an excuse. You drive down the road and the speed limits changes and you get a ticket because you didn't notice it had changed then you got to pay up. I think we just look at things slightly different.

Re: Kevin and Pat Williams, guilty or not?
 

FRPLG, if you are looking for a dietary supplement that doesn't have any banned substances within it, you're going to look at the nutrition facts page on that supplement. If that nutrition facts page does not contain a banned substance, then you are willing to take it, and therefore, trust the label.

The Williams' did their research on the supplement, on the banned drug was not present, only to find out later that it was. It is not their fault.

Re: Kevin and Pat Williams, guilty or not?
 

[quote=FRPLG;567305]You ingest something then you should know what it is. You eat a tomato you know it's a tomato. You eat a steak you know a cow gave it up for you. You take a little pill with 95 different ingredients then you are rolling the dice. Whose fault is it that you took the supplement? Your own. Whether it was on the label or not doesn't much matter to me in the sense that you should be absolved from the consequences of ingesting a banned substance when you did it unknowingly. It is banned. Ignorance isn't bliss and it isn't an excuse. You drive down the road and the speed limits changes and you get a ticket because you didn't notice it had changed then you got to pay up. I think we just look at things slightly different.[/quote]

FRPLG I think your taking this a bit far. These guys like most other people today do a highly specialized job. They play football at a high level, in doing that they learn a few things about nutrition- that doesn't mean they should be held to the standard of a doctor. They learn about mental toughness and visualizing an outcome- this doesn't mean they are psychics. Even your analogy isn't accurate, it is not akin to not "noticing" the speed limit changed it would be if there were no speed limit posted on the entire stretch of highway. Rules and Laws in any fair society must be posted for all to see. Otherwise we all become paranoid and or litigious, that in my opinion is not the message the NFL should be sending here. Accepting personal responsibility is one very human thing expecting perfection is not.

Re: Kevin and Pat Williams, guilty or not?
 

FRPLG -- I guarantee you this. You don't have a clue what type of chemicals you're ingesting when you eat a steak. There's a lot more than just meat in there. All sorts of growth hormones, etc. Do you know what they are? Doubt it. It's not on the packaging.

Re: Kevin and Pat Williams, guilty or not?
 

[quote=RedBar;567316]FRPLG I think your taking this a bit far. These guys like most other people today do a highly specialized job. They play football at a high level, in doing that they learn a few things about nutrition- that doesn't mean they should be held to the standard of a doctor. They learn about mental toughness and visualizing an outcome- this doesn't mean they are psychics. Even your analogy isn't accurate, it is not akin to not "noticing" the speed limit changed it would be if there were no speed limit posted on the entire stretch of highway. Rules and Laws in any fair society must be posted for all to see. Otherwise we all become paranoid and or litigious, that in my opinion is not the message the NFL should be sending here. Accepting personal responsibility is one very human thing expecting perfection is not.[/quote]

[B][U]The article says...[/U][/B][B][U][U][I]The players contested that they took StarCaps, a weight-loss supplement, and that the label didn't say it contained bumetanide. This is true. The NFL admitted it knew StarCaps contained the diuretic, which, in turn, triggered a lawsuit from the Williams boys (no relation). The NFL should have informed the players in the league not to take this substance, according to the two Williamses and their attorney.[/I][/U][/U][/B]

I disagree, I think they should be held responsible. I understand that they arent "psychics" or "doctors", but you should still have a clear understanding what you are taking when your job is on the line. These guys make a ton of money, and have immediate access to the best doctors and/or trainers that the clubs can provide. IMO....ignorance doesnt discount their violation of the rules, do your homework....or serve your time.

But....it is kinda sad that the league didnt put out the info beforehand.

Re: Kevin and Pat Williams, guilty or not?
 

The NFL won't allow anything to happen that could jeopardize Favre's success upon his arrival to the Vikings in a couple of weeks...that's my conspiracy theory for the day

Re: Kevin and Pat Williams, guilty or not?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;567338]The NFL won't allow anything to happen that could jeopardize Favre's success upon his arrival to the Vikings in a couple of weeks...that's my conspiracy theory for the day[/quote]

Conspiracy theory or truth? Or just the tip of the iceberg? Or is it possible that a certain Mr. Daniel Snyder owns the company that makes StarCaps? Is it possible by sabotaging the situation in Minnesota, Mr. Favre would be more inclined to sign with the Redskins and give Snyder the new big-name QB he seeks? Mike Florio or whatever his name is ain't got s**t on me!

Re: Kevin and Pat Williams, guilty or not?
 

[quote=Angry;567314]FRPLG, if you are looking for a dietary supplement that doesn't have any banned substances within it, you're going to look at the nutrition facts page on that supplement. If that nutrition facts page does not contain a banned substance, then you are willing to take it, and therefore, trust the label.

The Williams' did their research on the supplement, on the banned drug was not present, only to find out later that it was. It is not their fault.[/quote]

They ingested it themselves. Whether they knew or not doesn't take away the fact that they ingested on their own volition. To me ignorance isn't an excuse. I don't have a bad opinion of them but at the end of the day they took a banned substance. They should suffer the consequences. Now a lot of my feelings are mitigated by the fact that the league knew about this particular supplement and didn't tell players. To me, in that case because they failed to communicate properly, it totslly negates the players guilt. I'd just drop this if I were the league. But for me, in the future, if players take a banned substance they should reap the consequences regardless of intent or knowledge.

Re: Kevin and Pat Williams, guilty or not?
 

[quote=Daseal;567319]FRPLG -- I guarantee you this. You don't have a clue what type of chemicals you're ingesting when you eat a steak. There's a lot more than just meat in there. All sorts of growth hormones, etc. Do you know what they are? Doubt it. It's not on the packaging.[/quote]

So what?

Re: Kevin and Pat Williams, guilty or not?
 

Both sides of this argument have merit. I personally don't care either way, but I would have to lean towards guilty cause the test is cut and dry. It shouldn't matter where, or how a banned substance got in your system, it only matters that it did. Is it an unfortunate circumstance? Absolutely. (assuming you believe the story anyway)
The argument that makes me laugh is that "they have to make weight, so they took something to help them lose weight". OK...I get you need to lose weight. You are an athlete, act like one. Don't go nuts during the offseason and get way out of shape just to rely on a pill to get bring you back. The label should DEFINITELY say what's in it, no question, but that's a future legal action for the Williams'. That should be of no concern to the NFL. Horrible scenario, that's for sure.

Re: Kevin and Pat Williams, guilty or not?
 

[quote=Daseal;567319]-- I guarantee you this. You don't have a clue what type of chemicals you're ingesting when you eat a steak. There's a lot more than just meat in there. All sorts of growth hormones, etc. Do you know what they are? Doubt it. It's not on the packaging.[/quote]

Valid argument, however, we don't NEED to take weight pills to survive, we do need to eat to live though. What the cow eats, or is fed before it is slaughtered is diffferent than actually adding something foreign to a pill. I do agree it needs to be on the packaging...100% agree...but this is also why there are regular steaks and organic steaks. The organic steaks are guarenteed to be free of those things. Don't want hormones, eat organic. Pretty simple.

Re: Kevin and Pat Williams, guilty or not?
 

jsarno, not really. The if you read the FDA guidelines there are three different stages of 'organic.'

* 100 percent organic. Products that are completely organic or made of all organic ingredients.
* Organic. Products that are at least 95 percent organic.
* Made with organic ingredients. These are products that contain at least 70 percent organic ingredients. The organic seal can't be used on these packages.

Anyhow, they took the pills during the middle of the season. You get beat up, you can't really work out as much as you'd like to keep trim, and you don't want to pay the 2grand a day or whatever the overweight fine happens to be for the team. I would be completely on the side of those that say guilty had they not TRIED to contact the NFL to see if the substance was acceptable. That's the part that really bothers me.

Re: Kevin and Pat Williams, guilty or not?
 

[quote=Daseal;567367]I would be completely on the side of those that say guilty had they not TRIED to contact the NFL to see if the substance was acceptable. That's the part that really bothers me.[/quote]Yeah...in this case I say they're getting the shaft. I just think if any guilt can be shifted off of players and on to the league then they should get a pass. To me the NFL is resposnible for communicating the dangers of a supplement lie this if they have the info. How hard is it for them to have a damn website that they can update 24/7?

Re: Kevin and Pat Williams, guilty or not?
 

I worked at a Vitamin Shoppe for quite awhile and never sold a bottle of star caps... it's expensive and is only listed as containing garlic and papaya extract of some type, I doubt that pro athletes are using that stuff even if they're the only ones that can afford to pay as much as they charge for that crap

now I wasn't there or anything, but who the hell is there telling NFL players they gotta try out this?

[IMG]http://www.supplementgenius.com/images/star.jpeg[/IMG]

I understand the NFL not wanting their rules exploited but these bans have gone a bit too far -- you can't have everything that you consume tested

Re: Kevin and Pat Williams, guilty or not?
 

[quote=Daseal;567367]jsarno, not really. The if you read the FDA guidelines there are three different stages of 'organic.'

* 100 percent organic. Products that are completely organic or made of all organic ingredients.
* Organic. Products that are at least 95 percent organic.
* Made with organic ingredients. These are products that contain at least 70 percent organic ingredients. The organic seal can't be used on these packages.

Anyhow, they took the pills during the middle of the season. You get beat up, you can't really work out as much as you'd like to keep trim, and you don't want to pay the 2grand a day or whatever the overweight fine happens to be for the team. I would be completely on the side of those that say guilty had they not TRIED to contact the NFL to see if the substance was acceptable. That's the part that really bothers me.[/quote]

Didn't know that they tried to get the info, interesting.

Re: Kevin and Pat Williams, guilty or not?
 

[quote=roth74va;567335][B][U]The article says...[/U][/B][B][U][U][I]The players contested that they took StarCaps, a weight-loss supplement, and that the label didn't say it contained bumetanide. This is true. The NFL admitted it knew StarCaps contained the diuretic, which, in turn, triggered a lawsuit from the Williams boys (no relation). The NFL should have informed the players in the league not to take this substance, according to the two Williamses and their attorney.[/I][/U][/U][/B]

I disagree, I think they should be held responsible. I understand that they arent "psychics" or "doctors", but you should still have a clear understanding what you are taking when your job is on the line. These guys make a ton of money, and have immediate access to the best doctors and/or trainers that the clubs can provide. IMO....ignorance doesnt discount their violation of the rules, do your homework....or serve your time.

But....it is kinda sad that the league didnt put out the info beforehand.[/quote]

I really do get the point that they are responsible for what they ingest, but I am not persuaded in this case. Sometimes there are mitigating circumstances. On another note it bothers me when I constantly hear the rationale that these guys make a ton of money... Does your income somehow correlate to your level of accountability when it comes to rules? Should we have more patience with people who are paid less? Maybe Peyton Manning should be held to a higher standard then a free agent punter? These guys don't get paid a lot of money because they moonlight as nutritionist, they exercised prudent care and they were let down on two fronts by the label and the NFL. Money doesn't suddenly give you all the answers and at the same time it shouldn't get you out of every jam. I think on this one the NFL should give it to the free agent punter and punt. And then if he screws it up maybe it won't seem as bad.

Re: Kevin and Pat Williams, guilty or not?
 

[quote=RedBar;567466]I really do get the point that they are responsible for what they ingest, but I am not persuaded in this case. Sometimes there are mitigating circumstances. On another note it bothers me when I constantly hear the rationale that these guys make a ton of money... Does your income somehow correlate to your level of accountability when it comes to rules? Should we have more patience with people who are paid less? Maybe Peyton Manning should be held to a higher standard then a free agent punter? These guys don't get paid a lot of money because they moonlight as nutritionist, they exercised prudent care and they were let down on two fronts by the label and the NFL. Money doesn't suddenly give you all the answers and at the same time it shouldn't get you out of every jam. I think on this one the NFL should give it to the free agent punter and punt. And then if he screws it up maybe it won't seem as bad.[/quote]

Not judging on how much money they make, simply saying that it provides the option of the very best in healthcare. Most of us arent around trainers/doctors every single day at work. I do think the NFL could have done a better job of making the information available, but ultimately its the players responsibility.

I understand the other side of the arguement, and I will just agree to disagree at this point.

Hail to the Redskins!

Re: Kevin and Pat Williams, guilty or not?
 

[quote=FRPLG;567359]They ingested it themselves. Whether they knew or not doesn't take away the fact that they ingested on their own volition. To me ignorance isn't an excuse. I don't have a bad opinion of them but at the end of the day they took a banned substance. They should suffer the consequences. Now a lot of my feelings are mitigated by the fact that the league knew about this particular supplement and didn't tell players. To me, in that case because they failed to communicate properly, it totslly negates the players guilt. I'd just drop this if I were the league. But for me, in the future, if players take a banned substance they should reap the consequences regardless of intent or knowledge.[/quote]

So if a girl has a drink that has been spiked with Rohypnol it is her fault and therefore should suffer the consequences because even though she trusted the guy that bought it for her she is essentially responsible for whatever she puts in her body? Or am I trying to compare Apples to Oranges?

Re: Kevin and Pat Williams, guilty or not?
 

Did the accused players ask their team doctor (free service) or the NFL if this particular product is safe? Did they spend a little bit of time and to get the NFL to test this product tested by a lab?
These are millionaire athletes, is it that much to ask them to work out, eating well and stay in shape?
Do they have another time demanding job that prevents them from hitting the gym?
I am sure all of the NFL teams have nutritionists available to the players for free. They also have work out coaches.
Why are these young men taking these short cuts and ingesting an unregulated pill? They have so much to lose, fines, suspensions, end of career, not to mention how dangerous these unregulated supplements have been in the past. Was it not a Vikings OL that had a heart attack and died on the practice field; and later it was found that he was taking a supplement that contributed to his death?

What happened to just losing weight the old fashion way?

Re: Kevin and Pat Williams, guilty or not?
 

[quote=Angry;567739]So if a girl has a drink that has been spiked with Rohypnol it is her fault and therefore should suffer the consequences because even though she trusted the guy that bought it for her she is essentially responsible for whatever she puts in her body? Or am I trying to compare Apples to Oranges?[/quote]

That's Apples to Apples...and if she suspects she has been rapped she aught to pay for the rape-kit.

Re: Kevin and Pat Williams, guilty or not?
 

Doesn't seem like apples to apples to me.

It comes down to how one perceives risk. I think it is pretty obvious that professional athletes ought to be very wary of supplements, regardless of what is on the label. Their livlihoods depend on them being smart and informed. Risk aversion should be high. For a girl in the stated situation she should also have some level of risk aversion but if she truely trusts then you can't much blame her now can you?

Essentially to equate the two you'd have to make the assumption that the players(the girl) had been taking said supplement long enough to have passed other tests(creating reasonable trust) and then the company who makes the supplement(the guy) decides to change the formula(slip in a roofie) for the purpose of getting the athletes banned(raped).

I don't think that is how it happened. But I am not sure we know all the details yet.

Re: Kevin and Pat Williams, guilty or not?
 

I guess my argument comes to this:

To me it is reasonable that athletes should have been more wary of this supplement, or any supplement for that matter. Relying on the label is a mistake they shouldn't make.

How this particular situation shifts in my mind though is that I DO think they have a reasonable expectation that the league will communicate properly when supplements are found to be mislabeled. It not being reported by the league is tantamount to them saying "we have no reason to ban this substance". In that case they weren't just relying on the label, they were relying on the league to be open. The league failed. They ought to give it up and learn from the situation.

Re: Kevin and Pat Williams, guilty or not?
 

I am sorry, but we are just not going to agree on this. I should not have to go any further than the label to determine what I am getting, and honestly, I would not. These two men did a heck of a lot more research than I would have done on those supplements and did not receive any information that would lead them to believe that the substance was 1 in the product or 2 banned by the league.

If you want to get real nit picky then you might have an argument that they should have waited for a definite answer from the league before taking the supplement. If that is the case though, then the league needs to provide a timely response.

If I were to make a ruling on this, then the Williams's would be innocent...this time. The league would be responsible for notifying players of a banned substance in a more timely fashion. Players would be obligated to wait for a definitive answer from the league before "assuming" that a supplement does not have a banned substance. Any company that is found not to list all substances contained in the product on its label would be fined.

If I were the Williams's I would sue the supplement company if they have not already done so.