Marching Orders... Interesting Points
 

In today's article in the Post
[url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/20/AR2009012003850.html]In Offseason, Redskins Could Follow Example of Ravens, Falcons and Dolphins - washingtonpost.com[/url]

there were some interesting points:

"Several NFL executives -- speaking on condition of anonymity because the league would reprimand them for offering their opinions about another team -- and Redskins sources said they believe Washington must build through the draft, focusing on the offensive and defensive lines. They say the Redskins should emphasize the sort of youth movement followed by top teams in the salary cap era.

"They always try to patch it together for one more run, but that's easier than making a real change," one NFC executive said. "At some point, everyone starts over. But most teams want to go young, go through the draft. They resist that."............

[B]Washington must stop restructuring the contracts of high-priced veterans[/B], other executives and team sources said. [B]Instead of trying to keep the team together for a long postseason run that has not occurred under team owner Daniel Snyder, Washington must cut ties with players when their salary cap numbers rise and their productivity decreases.[/B] ......
Years of splurges on skill-position players have left the Redskins in an annual salary cap bind, and [B]most of the highest-paid players would be too cap-prohibitive to trade or cut. So the ability to retool at wide receiver or running back is limited.[/B]"

My point isn't to piss off the pro-Snyderatto fans and the folks that are tired of all the senseless Snyderatto bashing. I am not trying to beat a dead horse here. Just trying to highlight what other teams are saying about us and talk about a different approaches to our player personnel plans.

re: Marching Orders... Interesting Points
 

I think that Danny will catch on and hire a new GM if we don't get better. Perhaps sooner, perhaps later, but I think it's coming. You know he has to read some of the things that are said about his team.

re: Marching Orders... Interesting Points
 

Well in defense of the current roster and '09 season I believe we can start to seriously build through the draft, focusing on trench talent, w/o cutting a huge swath of vets out from under the franchise. Guys like JT, Springs and sadly Marcus who cost an arm and a leg but contribute sporadically can be booted at huge cost and replaced w/ great young talent (in the case of Hall) or for value players who will fill in nicely. Hell, we can even part w/ a guy or two via trade this year to get another high pick and get the youth movement in full swing. Also would say this article, while dead-on about the weakness of the o-line, is a little preemptive in that Thomas/Kelly/Davis could be offensive monsters for us (the article sort of implies we aren't doing much of anything to invest in youth.) The whole article has just one paragraph about those three players.

re: Marching Orders... Interesting Points
 

How dare the Ravens draft Offensive Lineman. Don't they know you need Receivers to win in this league. pffffft. You know the Ravens could learn a thing or two from the way Vinny Cerrato does things.

re: Marching Orders... Interesting Points
 

[quote=Dirtbag359;522054]How dare the Ravens draft Offensive Lineman. Don't they know you need Receivers to win in this league. pffffft. You know the Ravens could learn a thing or two from the way Vinny Cerrato does things.[/quote]

Thought that you were off the ledge?

re: Marching Orders... Interesting Points
 

B-Mitch actually said something during tonight's recap show on 980 Sports that I have been saying for a while. I'm not usually a big fan of his, but he said something to the extent of:

When the Skins had dominant O and D lines back in the day - the Hogs and guys like Mann, Butz, Manley, etc on the D-line, it didn't matter who they put behind those lines. It seemed like every QB and RB did well (Theismann, Williams, Schroeder, Rypien, Riggs, Rogers, Byner, Sanders, Ervins) and little receivers like the Smurfs got the job done.

I think it's one of the single most impressive accomplishments that Gibbs won 3 Super Bowls with 3 different QBs. Noll only won with Bradshaw, Shannihan only won with Elway, Walsh only won with Montana and watch how many Belichik wins without Brady.

It was Gibbs, but it was also the Skins organization and their commitment to building from the lines out. Good line play makes everyone else look better.

Conversely, you can have (as Mitchell said) Darrell Green on one side, Deion Sanders on the other (in their prime) and Ed Reed and Troy Polamalu as your safeties, but if you can't pressue the opposing QB, even they will get picked apart.

I like playmakers as much as the next guy, but I can get behind a model like the Titans have. If not for some uncharacteristic turnovers, they would have been playing in the AFC championship last week. We had as good as or better talent at the skill positions.

re: Marching Orders... Interesting Points
 

[quote=tryfuhl;522055]Thought that you were off the ledge?[/quote]

My desire to defect has passed. However my confidence in the front office is still non-existent. Either way the article really is scary. I mean Cerrato and friends provided the post with 5 pages of stuff they didn't have to make up. Thats of course assuming that the reports about stuff like the maturity of Thomas and Davis were true. And the idea that Vinny could trade more future picks for picks this year terrifies me.

re: Marching Orders... Interesting Points
 

[quote=Dirtbag359;522054]How dare the Ravens draft Offensive Lineman. Don't they know you need Receivers to win in this league. pffffft. You know the Ravens could learn a thing or two from the way Vinny Cerrato does things.[/quote]

No! Everyone knows you win these days by having a really good feature back who can carry the ball over 300 times. The team with the highest paid running back usually wins the Super Bowl. Just look at this year's playoff teams. None of them had a second back who got a lot of carries or caught a lot of passes. That's just a formula for disaster.

re: Marching Orders... Interesting Points
 

Hmmm well i hope this serves as an blueprint to dan and cerrato that the way to win is building both lines up. They say they want us to be dominate like we were before, and that time we had strong line play!!! How can they not see that and understand that this is the redskins!! building up strong lines!! Gosh!! i hope they learn, i really do.

re: Marching Orders... Interesting Points
 

I've been waiting for this thread all day.

I thought this was a big article to talk about. They spoke of this a lot today on "The Lockeroom" with Kevin Sheehan.

This article brings up a lot of what we talk about on this forum. We're pretty insightful bunch here.

re: Marching Orders... Interesting Points
 

Don't worry gents we are on pace to beat all 32 teams lineman on offense and defense... TO THE SOCIAL SECURITY LINE!

re: Marching Orders... Interesting Points
 

[quote=Skinny Tee;522084]I've been waiting for this thread all day.

I thought this was a big article to talk about. [B]They spoke of this a lot today on "The Lockeroom" with Kevin Sheehan. [/B]

This article brings up a lot of what we talk about on this forum. We're pretty insightful bunch here.[/quote]

Yeah, I listened to that segment myself.

What bugs me is this:
The model for success in the NFL is glaringly obvious. Teams that do well consistently build through the draft, and pretty much always focus on building the lines. Year in and year out the Eagles have shitty WRs, yet for a decade they go farther than we do. Andy Reid drafts on the line of scrimmage. Need or not, he stockpiles lineman. The Phins, Flacons, and Ravens do the same. So what the hell is wrong with Cerrato? How are can he repeatedly be so stupid? I understand if once or twice he tried to move picks for vets and screwed up, or once or twice he drafted nothing but skill positions and screwed up... But he does it EVERY DAMN YEAR!! Why? Why not buck his trend for once and follow the normal model of success in the league?? It's maddening and arrogant. We have a stupid front office, plain and simple.

re: Marching Orders... Interesting Points
 

[quote=Redskin Jim;522086]Don't worry gents we are on pace to beat all 32 teams lineman on offense and defense... TO THE SOCIAL SECURITY LINE![/quote]

LMAO. Oh man that got me going.

re: Marching Orders... Interesting Points
 

This was a good article, and I do get the sense that the front office will notice this. I can't believe that I'm doing this, but I'm going to come out and say something positive about the Redskins FO. I think that their mistakes in the past are being dragged around by the media and the fans, yet when you stop to look at what has happened, I think they are slowly improving.

Snyder learned to let go a bit under Gibbs, and I think he grew up a bit during this period. He wants to win badly, but unfortunately he believes this can be done right away if you throw a lot of money at the situation. Snyder wanted to bring Jim Fassel this past offseason, and the fan base exploded. The old Snyder would not have cared and hired Fassel, the new Snyder hired Jim Zorn. Zorn did OK, he still has a lot to learn, but did not fail as many first year coaches typically do.

The Front Office had a quiet offseason last year and did not go into their usual shopping spree. The only big acquisition was Jason Taylor, which unfortunately did not work out due to injuries...but this wasn't a Archuleta or Brandon Lloyd signing (players with questionable abilities) Taylor had come off a huge year (not a contract year) when his team sucked and went 1-15.

While some pundits and fans were calling for the Skins to bolster its d-line last offseson, another big concern that the Redskins had was getting another target for Campbell and someone that would take the heat from Santana Moss. While the Redskins flirted with the possibility of getting Chad Johnson or Anquan Boldin, they decided to "build through the draft". The jury is still out on the rookies, but they did not turn to their old ways of trading picks away.

In regards to the offensive line, I think this may have become a lesser priority next to getting a WR and a defensive lineman. Two seasons ago, many of us thought that the problem with our o-line was that they could never be in the field together as they got hurt a lot. I was one of the fans that called for a complimentary receiver/big possession receiver, and thought of this as the cure for our offensive problems. Now I believe that I, along with any fan/sports pundit, was wrong in thinking that a WR was a bigger need. I think many of us and the front office disregarded the fact that the o-line was getting older and of course that materialized in the problems the team had in the second half of the season.

Our front office has a lot to learn, but they have improved. Snyder has shown patience this year, and kept Zorn (the old Snyder would have booted him and Shanahan would have been hired). With only four picks, the need to inject youth into the team, improve the offense, and take our defense to the next level, this offseason will be a real test for the front office and the owner.

re: Marching Orders... Interesting Points
 

[quote=Dirtbag359;522089]LMAO. Oh man that got me going.[/quote]
Better to laugh than cry brother.. Hopefully we are not the only ones that see our lineman as a joke...

re: Marching Orders... Interesting Points
 

[quote]How dare the Ravens draft Offensive Lineman. Don't they know you need Receivers to win in this league. pffffft. You know the Ravens could learn a thing or two from the way Vinny Cerrato does things.[/quote]

Let's look at the Cardinals. Two pro bowl receivers. Unlike the Ravens, they're in the super bowl. How about the other team, the Steelers. Another team with two very good receivers in Ward and Holmes.

In order to win in this league you need a balanced team. Personally, if I were building a team I'd go for a high octane offense paired with ball hawking/opportunistic defense. Make em' throw and turn em' over.

But really, the Steelers offensive line isn't that great. Baltimore seems to often choose best available talent. They didn't particularly need Suggs when he came out, but he fell to them so they hopped on him.

Everything said, I'm ready to bust this team apart and start from scratch. However, as the article mentions, the salaries we have won't allow for that to happen in a timely manner. Make each pick count, stay away from D line for now, too risky.

re: Marching Orders... Interesting Points
 

[quote=Daseal;522101]Let's look at the Cardinals. Two pro bowl receivers. Unlike the Ravens, they're in the super bowl. How about the other team, the Steelers. Another team with two very good receivers in Ward and Holmes.

[B]In order to win in this league you need a balanced team.[/B] Personally, if I were building a team I'd go for a high octane offense paired with ball hawking/opportunistic defense. Make em' throw and turn em' over.

But really, the Steelers offensive line isn't that great. Baltimore seems to often choose best available talent. They didn't particularly need Suggs when he came out, but he fell to them so they hopped on him.

Everything said, I'm ready to bust this team apart and start from scratch. However, as the article mentions, the salaries we have won't allow for that to happen in a timely manner. Make each pick count, stay away from D line for now, too risky.[/quote]

Very good point. Arizona had a good offense, but would not have survived the playoffs without their defense stepping up.

re: Marching Orders... Interesting Points
 

The problem with last year's draft was not that we chose receivers, but that they ended up sucking. Last time I checked, the NFC representative in the Superbowl was built around dynamic WR's and superior secondary play. I mean, the Cardinals aren't elite in either trench. The Colts are a team that has won a recent Superbowl - unlike those mentioned in this article - who place a tremendous premium on selecting offensive skill position players early and often, while neglecting their defensive line. And they've done aight. As Mel Kiper said in defending us last year post-draft, as some questioned our decision to draft three receivers, you can't do it all in one year. A polite way of saying that, on a team as old and hole-filled as ours, a team whose reserves had been depleted of youth from years of mortaging draft picks, it was going to take a few 10 pick stock-ups to get us back to where we need to be.

So yeah, we should draft linemen, and linebackers, and every other position too. But let's not pretend that Vinny's draft choices from last year are the reason we are where we are now. That goes back years, to Gibbs and Spurrier and before even.

re: Marching Orders... Interesting Points
 

[quote=Daseal;522101]Let's look at the Cardinals. Two pro bowl receivers. Unlike the Ravens, they're in the super bowl. How about the other team, the Steelers. Another team with two very good receivers in Ward and Holmes.

In order to win in this league you need a balanced team. Personally, if I were building a team I'd go for a high octane offense paired with ball hawking/opportunistic defense. Make em' throw and turn em' over.

But really, the Steelers offensive line isn't that great. Baltimore seems to often choose best available talent. They didn't particularly need Suggs when he came out, but he fell to them so they hopped on him.

Everything said, I'm ready to bust this team apart and start from scratch. However, as the article mentions, the salaries we have won't allow for that to happen in a timely manner. Make each pick count, stay away from D line for now, too risky.[/quote]

You forgot to mention that the Cardinals have beneiftted from top class O-Line play during the last three weeks. Wisenhunt has gone out of his way to give credit to the O-Line during the playoff run.

Also keep in mind that out of the previous 14 Super Bowl winners only one team had a reciever with 1,200+ yards, and that was the Colts who ironically had my two most important offenisve cogs in an elite QB and a top notch O-Line.

Which brings me to the Steelers. Well you're right they don't have a great offensive line, instead they have a top notch Quarterback that is capable of running the offense. However the main reason the Steelers are in the Super Bowl is because of their defense which despite being ranked only 2 or 3 spots ahead of us is in a class of it's own. They actually remind me of the Raven's from 2001, just with a better Quarterback. So if we can get a defense that is capable of truly dominating a game then by all means we can pass up taking O-Lineman.

You're right though, balance is very important, and right now as a team we have a huge inbalance as it relates to our offensive line, in part because we've used so many draft picks on Recievers since the turn of the century. I also agree that going D-Line early in the draft right now is a little risky but if the Big 4 are gone and BJ Rali falls in our laps then I'll be more then happy to make him a Redskin.

Also I feel that if we can come away with two new starters in this draft (ie a new Guard and RT) then our offense will be exponentially better then it was last year (of course due in part to Campbells experience with the offense), and as it relates to leaving our defense alone, well from what I've seen with the exception of 2003 and 2006 our defense has managed to find a way to get the job done. Then again these things seem to happen in three's so I guess that settles it. In 2009 our defense will suck because of the number "3".

re: Marching Orders... Interesting Points
 

I think it's also important to look at how successful teams don't necessarily have one workhorse running back who gets run into the ground all year long. Take a look at the teams who have recently had deep playoff runs...

-- Giants in 2007, leading rusher was Brandon Jacobs with 1009 yards

-- Arizona this year, leading rushers were Hightower and Edge -- combined for just 913 yards

-- Pittsburgh this year, Willie Parker gains just 791 yards

Also, check out the stats over at NFL.com for the [URL="http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?season=2008&seasonType=REG&d-447263-o=2&conference=null&tabSeq=0&statisticCategory=RUSHING&d-447263-p=1&d-447263-s=RUSHING_ATTEMPTS&d-447263-n=1"]running backs[/URL] who had the most carries. Look at how many of those teams made it to the playoffs. You have to go down to the guy who had the 12th most carries (Chris Johnson of Tennessee) to find out who had the deepest playoff run. At #17, 18, and 19 it was Brian Westbrook, LaRon McClain of the Ravens, and Brandon Jacobs. With the exception of Adrian Peterson of Minnesota, no playoff team had any running back have more than 292 carries for the season.

So I think this shows that we have placed too great a priority (and spent way too much money) on the "Superman" theory of running backs. You know, just hand the ball off to one guy and he will singlehandedly carry your team to the promised land. All that does is burn him out of gas, and it makes your offense dependent on the health of one guy.

re: Marching Orders... Interesting Points
 

[quote=Daseal;522101]Let's look at the Cardinals. Two pro bowl receivers. Unlike the Ravens, they're in the super bowl. How about the other team, the Steelers. Another team with two very good receivers in Ward and Holmes.

In order to win in this league you need a balanced team. Personally, if I were building a team I'd go for a high octane offense paired with ball hawking/opportunistic defense. Make em' throw and turn em' over.

But really, the Steelers offensive line isn't that great. Baltimore seems to often choose best available talent. They didn't particularly need Suggs when he came out, but he fell to them so they hopped on him.

Everything said, I'm ready to bust this team apart and start from scratch. However, as the article mentions, the salaries we have won't allow for that to happen in a timely manner. Make each pick count, stay away from D line for now, too risky.[/quote]

I'd argue that the Cardinals are the exception and not the rule. The Cardinals were only 9-7, and happened to get hot and lucky at the right time. If the Ravens or Titans were in the NFC they would have crushed the Cardinals with their mediocre talent at the wide receiver position. I'd rather the Skins build a team like those teams vs. a team like the Cardinals. 9-7 won't win the NFC East like it did the NFC West.

And while Holmes and Ward are good, they're certainly not Fitzgerald and Boldin or even in the elite class of receivers like those guys. And even with Holmes and Ward, it's Big Ben keeping every play alive with his feet that makes that offense go. They actually won their last Super Bowl after getting rid of Plaxico Burress and before Holmes got there.

re: Marching Orders... Interesting Points
 

[quote=Beemnseven;522108]I think it's also important to look at how successful teams don't necessarily have one workhorse running back who gets run into the ground all year long. Take a look at the teams who have recently had deep playoff runs...

-- Giants in 2007, leading rusher was Brandon Jacobs with 1009 yards

-- Arizona this year, leading rushers were Hightower and Edge -- combined for just 913 yards

-- Pittsburgh this year, Willie Parker gains just 791 yards

Also, check out the stats over at NFL.com for the [URL="http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?season=2008&seasonType=REG&d-447263-o=2&conference=null&tabSeq=0&statisticCategory=RUSHING&d-447263-p=1&d-447263-s=RUSHING_ATTEMPTS&d-447263-n=1"]running backs[/URL] who had the most carries. Look at how many of those teams made it to the playoffs. You have to go down to the guy who had the 12th most carries (Chris Johnson of Tennessee) to find out who had the deepest playoff run. At #17, 18, and 19 it was Brian Westbrook, LaRon McClain of the Ravens, and Brandon Jacobs. With the exception of Adrian Peterson of Minnesota, every other team who had running backs that carried the ball more than anyone else either didn't make the playoffs or were 'one and done' when they got there.

So I think this shows that we have placed too great a priority (and spent way too much money) on the "Superman" theory of running backs. You know, just hand the ball off to one guy and he will singlehandedly carry your team to the promised land. All that does is burn him out of gas, and it makes your offense dependent on the health of one guy.[/quote]

And look at receptions as well. Most of those teams had a back who caught at least 40 balls. If our receivers and O line were so bad, then why didn't Zorn do more to get the backs involved in the passing attack? Look at how effectively teams like Miami, Atlanta and San Diego used their backs in the passing game. And even Minnesota mixed things up with Chester Taylor. He had 101 carries and 45 receptions, while Betts only had 61 and 22. The way Zorn used the RBs was just plain stupid.

re: Marching Orders... Interesting Points
 

[quote=GMScud;522087]Yeah, I listened to that segment myself.

What bugs me is this:
The model for success in the NFL is glaringly obvious. Teams that do well consistently build through the draft, and pretty much always focus on building the lines. Year in and year out the Eagles have shitty WRs, yet for a decade they go farther than we do. Andy Reid drafts on the line of scrimmage. Need or not, he stockpiles lineman. The Phins, Flacons, and Ravens do the same. So what the hell is wrong with Cerrato? How are can he repeatedly be so stupid? I understand if once or twice he tried to move picks for vets and screwed up, or once or twice he drafted nothing but skill positions and screwed up... But he does it EVERY DAMN YEAR!! Why? Why not buck his trend for once and follow the normal model of success in the league?? It's maddening and arrogant. We have a stupid front office, plain and simple.[/quote]

Absolutely! And he'll look at a team like the Cardinals who just happened to catch lightning in a bottle and think he can do the same thing. They're not built for long term success like the Ravens, Giants, Eagles, Pats, Steelers, Titans, etc. I want a team that's a threat to win 10-12 wins every year and not a team that eeks into the playoffs at 9-7 hoping to get hot at the right time. Even so, watch how the Cards operate from here on. Wisenhunt will build like the Steelers. They'll beef up the lines and will live with Fitzgerald and let Boldin go. Can't have long term success when all your money is tied up in skill positions.

re: Marching Orders... Interesting Points
 

[quote=44Deezel;522062]B-Mitch actually said something during tonight's recap show on 980 Sports that I have been saying for a while. I'm not usually a big fan of his, but he said something to the extent of:

When the Skins had dominant O and D lines back in the day - the Hogs and guys like Mann, Butz, Manley, etc on the D-line, it didn't matter who they put behind those lines. It seemed like every QB and RB did well (Theismann, Williams, Schroeder, Rypien, Riggs, Rogers, Byner, Sanders, Ervins) and little receivers like the Smurfs got the job done.

I think it's one of the single most impressive accomplishments that Gibbs won 3 Super Bowls with 3 different QBs. Noll only won with Bradshaw, Shannihan only won with Elway, Walsh only won with Montana and watch how many Belichik wins without Brady.

It was Gibbs, but it was also the Skins organization and their commitment to building from the lines out. Good line play makes everyone else look better.
.[/quote]

But then it's not about where we're picking our linemen from but who the linemen we're picking, because a lot of those guys (if not most) were later round picks, undrafted free agents, and other teams' free agents

re: Marching Orders... Interesting Points
 

[quote=Daseal;522101]Let's look at the Cardinals. Two pro bowl receivers. Unlike the Ravens, they're in the super bowl. How about the other team, the Steelers. Another team with two very good receivers in Ward and Holmes.

In order to win in this league you need a balanced team. Personally, if I were building a team I'd go for a high octane offense paired with ball hawking/opportunistic defense. Make em' throw and turn em' over.

But really, the Steelers offensive line isn't that great. Baltimore seems to often choose best available talent. They didn't particularly need Suggs when he came out, but he fell to them so they hopped on him.

Everything said, I'm ready to bust this team apart and start from scratch. However, as the article mentions, the salaries we have won't allow for that to happen in a timely manner. Make each pick count, stay away from D line for now, too risky.[/quote]

Nice post. Very nice.

re: Marching Orders... Interesting Points
 

The Falcons, Ravens, and Dolphins are all the flavor of the moment...but what if they fall flat on their asses next year? Are we going to praise them again?

re: Marching Orders... Interesting Points
 

[quote=Daseal;522101]Let's look at the Cardinals. Two pro bowl receivers. Unlike the Ravens, they're in the super bowl. How about the other team, the Steelers. Another team with two very good receivers in Ward and Holmes.

In order to win in this league you need a balanced team. Personally, if I were building a team I'd go for a high octane offense paired with ball hawking/opportunistic defense. Make em' throw and turn em' over.

But really, the Steelers offensive line isn't that great. Baltimore seems to often choose best available talent. They didn't particularly need Suggs when he came out, but he fell to them so they hopped on him.

Everything said, I'm ready to bust this team apart and start from scratch. However, as the article mentions, the salaries we have won't allow for that to happen in a timely manner. Make each pick count, stay away from D line for now, too risky.[/quote]


I think the point isnt what kind of team is needed to win, its how to get that winning team. For some reason the Redskins still dont get how its done. I just dont see this organization changing the way it does business until the business owner changes and that aint gonna happen anytime soon.

re: Marching Orders... Interesting Points
 

Irish, explain yourself? Ever since Gibbs left (granted it's a small sample) we went after a few select FAs (Fletcher, Hall) both of which worked out brilliantly, we traded down in the draft to stock pile picks, and we made some good decisions. With the exception of Jason Taylor, I really like what the FO did this offseason. Even Jason Taylor doesn't upset me, I think we have a different tune if his calf wasn't destroyed early in the year.

Yes, our WR's haven't produced. Kelly was by far the most polished product, and he was suffering with injuries since before the season began. Devin Thomas was basically a one year wonder. He has all the physical pieces in place, but he needs to learn the game before becoming an integral part of the offense. Everyone here knows it takes most receivers a long time to develop. According to what I've been hearing on NFL radio, besides QB, WR is one of the hardest transitions in the NFL.

re: Marching Orders... Interesting Points
 

[quote=Daseal;522127]Irish, explain yourself? Ever since Gibbs left (granted it's a small sample) we went after a few select FAs (Fletcher, Hall) both of which worked out brilliantly, we traded down in the draft to stock pile picks, and we made some good decisions. With the exception of Jason Taylor, I really like what the FO did this offseason. Even Jason Taylor doesn't upset me, I think we have a different tune if his calf wasn't destroyed early in the year.

Yes, our WR's haven't produced. Kelly was by far the most polished product, and he was suffering with injuries since before the season began. Devin Thomas was basically a one year wonder. He has all the physical pieces in place, but he needs to learn the game before becoming an integral part of the offense. Everyone here knows it takes most receivers a long time to develop. According to what I've been hearing on NFL radio, besides QB, WR is one of the hardest transitions in the NFL.[/quote]

I agree the Skins few FA picks worked out but what did it really get them? IMO, not much as the Skins ended up on the outside again. The teams that know how to do it bring in one or 2 FAs as the last piece of the puzzle. The Skins arent that close yet and they brought in more than that.

Only the Skins would have used their picks last year for 2 WRs and a TE. When the Skins do draft it seems as if they dont have a plan.

For better or worse this owner spends enough $ so that the Skins are never really bad enough to get a #1 or 2 pick. Unfortunately that means they are stuck in this 7-9 to 9-7 range that if all the lucky stars line up they get in the playoffs otherwise they are out and drafting mid pack.

re: Marching Orders... Interesting Points
 

Irish, currently we don't have a #1 WR right now. People like to build Moss up, but he's mediocre. He's a #2, ARE is a #3. I believe the skins went best available in the spot. And I think they did fine with the three picks. I think Fred Davis could be very, very good. I'm also not giving up on our now 2nd year WRs.

Granted, I think this team should get broken apart and rebuilt -- but Redskins fans can't handle it. They're already screaming why our rookie WRs aren't in pro bowls. The skins were competitive the first part of the season -- we were singing Vinny's praises for a great draft and being responsible. Now after the season, it's all of a sudden his fault? I just don't see it. I think Vinny is doing just fine. The guy can spot talent pretty well, he's gotten some very good late picks for us that have contributed.

re: Marching Orders... Interesting Points
 

[quote=Daseal;522136]Irish, currently we don't have a #1 WR right now. People like to build Moss up, but he's mediocre. He's a #2, ARE is a #3. I believe the skins went best available in the spot. And I think they did fine with the three picks. I think Fred Davis could be very, very good. I'm also not giving up on our now 2nd year WRs.

Granted, I think this team should get broken apart and rebuilt -- [B]but Redskins fans can't handle it. [/B] They're already screaming why our rookie WRs aren't in pro bowls. The skins were competitive the first part of the season -- we were singing Vinny's praises for a great draft and being responsible. Now after the season, it's all of a sudden his fault? I just don't see it. I think Vinny is doing just fine. The guy can spot talent pretty well, he's gotten some very good late picks for us that have contributed.[/quote]

That's pretty much the problem. That, and the fact that our owner is also a lifelong fan who sometimes can't separate his passion from his priorities. We need to be willing to be bad, really bad. But...well you see the gameday threads you know how people react.

re: Marching Orders... Interesting Points
 

[quote=Daseal;522136]Irish, currently we don't have a #1 WR right now. People like to build Moss up, but he's mediocre. He's a #2, ARE is a #3. I believe the skins went best available in the spot. And I think they did fine with the three picks. I think Fred Davis could be very, very good. I'm also not giving up on our now 2nd year WRs.

Granted, I think this team should get broken apart and rebuilt -- but Redskins fans can't handle it. They're already screaming why our rookie WRs aren't in pro bowls. The skins were competitive the first part of the season -- we were singing Vinny's praises for a great draft and being responsible. Now after the season, it's all of a sudden his fault? I just don't see it. I think Vinny is doing just fine. The guy can spot talent pretty well, he's gotten some very good late picks for us that have contributed.[/quote]

The team didnt need WRs and a TE. It needed and still needs O-line and D-line help.

I agree Redskins fans cant handle the team being broken apart, especially since it was touted how well off Gibbs left this team when in fact he didnt, and thats because it always appears the Skins are close to being a contender but thats because of what I said in an earlier post about the owner spending $. Its not all Vinny's fault, but unfortunately the organization is broken from top to bottom and I dont see it being fixed any time soon.

Lots of teams are competitive early in the season (just ask Buffalo) but the really good ones win in Nov & Dec and then on into Jan. This team doesnt win in Nov & Dec (forget about Jan) and thats what tells me it isnt that good.

re: Marching Orders... Interesting Points
 

[quote=irish;522124]I think the point isnt what kind of team is needed to win, its how to get that winning team. For some reason the Redskins still dont get how its done. I just dont see this organization changing the way it does business until the business owner changes and that aint gonna happen anytime soon.[/quote]

You beat me to it Irish, that is it.
For the longest time I have not like the rengotiaton game with the cap. Every offseason we start over the cap and we have work our way below it.
Every year we have players on the roser that are high paid and are not contributuing enough to warrant their pay. Then we can not get rid of them cause of the cap hit or we take a big hit. This year Jon Jansen and Fred Smoot are the example. We can not cut them even though it would better for the team to get rid of their bloated salaries and subpar play with younger/cheaper players.
There guys on this sight that have called what Snyder has done with the cap "genious". I never thought it to be genious because ultimately we do not win enough on the field. It is clever but it has onot worked.
We trade draft picks for old veterans. Then when we do use the few draft picks, under Snyderatto we have drafted mostly skill position players.
All of this it goes against what the repeat Super Bowl winning teams are doing.
While Snyder might be clever in getting around the salary cap, his teams have had no success on the field.

re: Marching Orders... Interesting Points
 

A truly broken organization to me are the Lions, or the Raiders.

The Redskins are a team that always seems to be stuck somewhere in mediocrity. Not horrible, not great. If they stay focused on the draft and continue to use free agency as a supplement to building the roster I really believe they will break through in the next few years. And having the same head coach/system in place for multiple years would be a great benefit as well.

re: Marching Orders... Interesting Points
 

[quote=Daseal;522136]Irish, currently we don't have a #1 WR right now. People like to build Moss up, but he's mediocre. He's a #2, ARE is a #3. I believe the skins went best available in the spot. And I think they did fine with the three picks. I think Fred Davis could be very, very good. I'm also not giving up on our now 2nd year WRs.

Granted, I think this team should get broken apart and rebuilt -- but Redskins fans can't handle it. They're already screaming why our rookie WRs aren't in pro bowls. The skins were competitive the first part of the season -- we were singing Vinny's praises for a great draft and being responsible. Now after the season, it's all of a sudden his fault? I just don't see it. I think Vinny is doing just fine. The guy can spot talent pretty well, he's gotten some very good late picks for us that have contributed.[/quote]

I can handle a rebuild...and as a season ticket holder I will keep paying for as long as it takes. My only problem is that I don't trust Vinny to do the rebuilding. He is the only constant in Snyders 10+ years here...I don't think everything is his fault...but if I am going to endure a rebuilding project I want someone with a proven track record at the controls. We need a fresh start and it's never a fresh start as long as we keep repackaging Vinny in one role or another.

re: Marching Orders... Interesting Points
 

[quote=SmootSmack;522138]That's pretty much the problem. That, and the fact that our owner is also a lifelong fan who sometimes can't separate his passion from his priorities. We need to be willing to be bad, really bad. But...well you see the gameday threads you know how people react.[/quote]

After last seasons, i think the fans can put up with re-building. The team played so painfully bad against the 49ers, Bengals, Lions and Seattle to name a few.
I would rather deal with bad play knowing we are building for the future with young promising players, than deal with bad play and see high priced old timers play like Jansen, Smoot, Fabini, Kendall, Phillip Daniels, Jason Taylor.....etc trot out on to the field each Sunday.
We are spinning our wheels with the way yhte team has been run. It is time for something new.

re: Marching Orders... Interesting Points
 

[quote=Mattyk72;522144]A truly broken organization to me are the Lions, or the Raiders.

The Redskins are a team that always seems to be stuck somewhere in mediocrity. Not horrible, not great. If they stay focused on the draft and continue to use free agency as a supplement to building the roster I really believe they will break through in the next few years. And having the same head coach/system in place for multiple years would be a great benefit as well.[/quote]

I agree those are the truely broken organizations unfortunately the Skins are closer to them than they are to Pgh, NE.

I also agree that the coaching carosel needs to stop. That's another huge problem.

Like I have said, the Skins are stuck in mediocrity because the owner spends enough $ to keep them from ever being horrible (and get them a real impact franchise player) so it appears they are closer than they really are. This team is nowhere close to a championship contender.

re: Marching Orders... Interesting Points
 

[quote=Mattyk72;522144]A truly broken organization to me are the Lions, or the Raiders.

The Redskins are a team that always seems to be stuck somewhere in mediocrity. Not horrible, not great. If they stay focused on the draft and continue to use free agency as a supplement to building the roster I really believe they will break through in the next few years. And having the same head coach/system in place for multiple years would be a great benefit as well.[/quote]

We are the oldest team in the NFl and we have one of the highest payrolls. We have to stop bringing in old FA's. We have to stop renegotiating contracts of old players just to get below the cap, get rid of the old over paid players. Stop trading high draft picks for 34 year old FA's. But we always revert back to these bad practices because it is less painful. We build this team to win today, not to win for tomorrow.

re: Marching Orders... Interesting Points
 

[quote=Defensewins;522147]After last seasons, [B] i think the fans can put up with re-building.[/B] The team played so painfully bad against the 49ers, Bengals, Lions and Seattle to name a few.
I would rather deal with bad play knowing we are building for the future with young promising players, than deal with bad play and see high priced old timers play like Jansen, Smoot, Fabini, Kendall, Phillip Daniels, Jason Taylor.....etc trot out on to the field each Sunday.
We are spinning our wheels with the way yhte team has been run. It is time for something new.[/quote]

I'm curious about this...whether or not fans can put up with rebuilding...or the ownership. I posted something related to this in another thread, when someone brought up the Ravens, Dolphins, and Atlanta. I mentioned that all of those team had losing seasons while rebuilding, and actually acquired some good players through high draft picks they got due to those losing seasons.

I think the fanbase is too impatient. I laugh when people mention the cliche "build through the draft" as an option instead of signing a free agent. i'm not sure these people know that building through the draft typically means getting a lot of young players and not winning many games while they develop. I know this doesn't happen ALL the time, but if you rebuild, you have to be ready to face a losing season.

re: Marching Orders... Interesting Points
 

^ I think it goes back to how you package what your selling. Every year Snyder/Cerrato come out and say "We almost made it, just a couple of new toys and hopefully we get to the SB." We change coach's every 2-5 yrs and still go nowhere. Always the same thing....."We just need to fill a few spots and SB here we come." Guess what .....none of the coach's have been able to package a decent SB run. Not even our beloved Gibbs.

I would like to think if and I mean if the team ever said " We are in rebuilding mode" everyones high expectations would diminish and we would expect mediocracy until a decent team is fielded. I hate the fact that every year team officials say we are so close when we are really not. We have over the hill linemen on both sides of the ball which is partially Gibbs fault cause he always liked the older players that did not make mental mistakes at the line. Remember the...."Over the hill gang."

Is there anything wrong with a team saying to all college prospects that did not get picked in the draft ..."Hey we need linemen on both sides of the ball and if you want a job come to our tryouts." or are they limited as to how many they can have show up?

I'd to an all call for linemen and WR's and CB's. Come one come all. let us evaluate you.