What if ... (the Rookie Class gets it)
 

In contrast to the "Why did we" threads that have been a staple this season, I wanted to ask a simple question:

[B]What if[/B] the remaining Rookie Class, (MK DT FD, and the others) "get it" and start making some positive strides in the late part of this season.

[B]What if[/B]... Devin Thomas becomes a big target in the middle on 3rd Downs? Wouldn't the options of DT in the middle of the field, Cooley short Side out and Santana going deep give any Defense a fear of how to defend that combination. With CP blocking and/or fading to the other side.

[B]What if[/B] ... Malcom Kelly becomes the Red Zone go to on the fade, with Cooley and Davis running short, and Moss running the Slant. Do we think Jason can throw the Jump ball to MK a couple times or the slant on the open middle?

[B]What if[/B] ... Fred Davis learns more from Cooley, and the 2 of them sync up with Jason?

I could go on, but my point is we drafted for potential. We were [U]not[/U] drafting for the immediate (although as happens every year at the draft, we all want that one special player, like Darrell Green who comes in day 1 and lights up the place.).

Please don't bring in the 3 or 4 other players who are frequently mentioned. We didn't pick'em and if we had they would just be getting on the field as well. Why? Because we returned all of our starting WR's, our QB, and RB's

[B]What if[/B] ... our draft results in a strong team going forward.

That is what I hope that we start seeing signs of as early as this week against Seattle.

Re: What if ... (the Rookie Class gets it)
 

Wait a minute, you mean what if we had some patience and let our draft picks develop the same way we (meaning the team, not the fans) let Rogers, Campbell, and others develop? You mean what if we realized draft picks are not generally All-Pros by the 10th game of their career? What a novel concept!

Re: What if ... (the Rookie Class gets it)
 

Good thread. I think that if this pans out, we still have holes elsewhere on the team, but we'll be set in terms of pass catchers for the next 7-8 years.

I think the more realistic question is: if Devin Thomas can't be our deep threat, but the other two end up getting onto the field and turning out to be good players, do we still have a weakness at WR?

I mean, you look at Jacksonville. There's a lot of talent at WR on that team, but they are relying on Troy Williamson to stretch the field. Now, if Moss wasn't on our team, we'd be relying on Devin Thomas to stretch the field. Either way, if the deep threat is unreliable, can the offense still operate at full efficiency even if every other target is very good?

I don't know the answer, but I'm not sure that they can. I think Moss being totally unreliable last season had a lot to do with the running lanes Portis wasn't getting (Portis also wasn't breaking any tackles last year, so I'm not blaming Moss for everything). And I think we took Devin Thomas with that in mind.

So, I'll spin this back at you: if Thomas is a bust, but the other two fulfill their potential, can we call this draft a success? Or do we still need to acquire a reliable deep threat, meaning that despite taking three targets, our WRs are still not quite set for the future?

Re: What if ... (the Rookie Class gets it)
 

All i want is Jason Taylor to be the mvp that he is. If he steps up it makes our defense so much better.

Re: What if ... (the Rookie Class gets it)
 

[quote=bigm29;502766]All i want is Jason Taylor to be the mvp that he is. If he steps up it makes our defense so much better.[/quote]Jason Taylor is the ace in the hole for the defense down the stretch. Problem is, who are you going to bench for him? Evans has been playing brilliantly in relief of him, and Carter's is our only serious pass rushing threat.

At this point, his only way onto the field is as a linebacker. Which he did a little of in third down packages last game, but we need the additional pass rush, why not use him a little bit in a rotation with Blades on 1st and 2nd downs?

Re: What if ... (the Rookie Class gets it)
 

[quote=SmootSmack;502764]Wait a minute, you mean what if we had some patience and let our draft picks develop the same way we (meaning the team, not the fans) let Rogers, Campbell, and others develop? You mean what if we realized draft picks are not generally All-Pros by the 10th game of their career? What a novel concept![/quote]

You mean act like knowledgable fans who realize you can't really judge a draft until 2-3 years after the fact? :pffff: That would take away from verbally destroying a guy before he's given a chance to learn the system and prove himself on the field. And CRedskinsRule, are you saying that maybe the rookies have been learning the system during the first 10 games of the season and now could possibly contribute down the stretch when we really need them? Where do you guys get off with that kind of stuff? That just makes way, way to much sense. :)

Re: What if ... (the Rookie Class gets it)
 

Great Thread, this is what I have been telling my friends who are just as impatient as most fans. I agree with you 100% and feel we had an excellent draft. I also agree that Jackson and Royal, if they were drafted by us wouldn't have performed as well with us, because we have more depth at WR than those teams.

Most people would have rather had a DL and or OL at that position, but I believe we were set to draft Trevor Laws instead of Davis, but he was picked right before we chose him. The first two rounds of the draft shouldn't be drafting by need, rather by best player available. Do you actually think Scott Pioli, GM of the Pats drafts by need or by the best player BPA.

Re: What if ... (the Rookie Class gets it)
 

[B]What if[/B] We had a Killer Instinct...we capitalized on turnovers, we took it to teams early and often, we disn't settle for field goals.

We would have beat the Steelers, Rams, and Cowboys

Re: What if ... (the Rookie Class gets it)
 

I would not be surprised if it happened. I've been waiting and I know it will eventually happen, we still need to draft a DE,LB and OL help for next year.

Re: What if ... (the Rookie Class gets it)
 

[quote=GTripp0012;502765]Good thread. I think that if this pans out, we still have holes elsewhere on the team, but we'll be set in terms of pass catchers for the next 7-8 years.

I think the more realistic question is: if Devin Thomas can't be our deep threat, but the other two end up getting onto the field and turning out to be good players, do we still have a weakness at WR?

I mean, you look at Jacksonville. There's a lot of talent at WR on that team, but they are relying on Troy Williamson to stretch the field. Now, if Moss wasn't on our team, we'd be relying on Devin Thomas to stretch the field. Either way, if the deep threat is unreliable, can the offense still operate at full efficiency even if every other target is very good?

I don't know the answer, but I'm not sure that they can. I think Moss being totally unreliable last season had a lot to do with the running lanes Portis wasn't getting (Portis also wasn't breaking any tackles last year, so I'm not blaming Moss for everything). And I think we took Devin Thomas with that in mind.

[B]So, I'll spin this back at you: if Thomas is a bust, but the other two fulfill their potential, can we call this draft a success? Or do we still need to acquire a reliable deep threat, meaning that despite taking three targets, our WRs are still not quite set for the future?[/B][/quote]

I would take 2 out of 3 second rounders from one draft. Really, how many first rounders(with their equivalent salary cap number) will find themselves being shelved. All 31 this year aren't having breakout seasons, heck Dallas had 2 first round picks, and they had to IR(i think they IR'd F. Jones) one of them. So yes I would say that 2 out of 3 is a success.

To your question about a reliable deep threat, I don't know the answer, but I doubt I would want that from next year's draft, because we do need youth elsewhere.

Re: What if ... (the Rookie Class gets it)
 

[quote=Skinsfanmania;502770]Great Thread, this is what I have been telling my friends who are just as impatient as most fans. I agree with you 100% and feel we had an excellent draft. I also agree that Jackson and Royal, if they were drafted by us wouldn't have performed as well with us, because we have more depth at WR than those teams.

Most people would have rather had a DL and or OL at that position, but I believe we were set to draft Trevor Laws instead of Davis, but he was picked right before we chose him. The first two rounds of the draft shouldn't be drafting by need, rather by best player available. [B]Do you actually think Scott Pioli, GM of the Pats drafts by need or by the best player BPA[/B].[/quote]I would definitely say Jerrod Mayo was a "draft by need" selection by Pioli in the first round last year. Most saw Mayo as a mid-first rounder (15-20 range), and was a slight reach at #10 overall. That said, he has worked out well for the Pats this season.

Vinny definitely stuck to our draft board with the 2nd round picks this year, but don't say that we've always done that. In 2005, we were absolutely picking CB with our 1st pick after Smoot departed via free agency. Both Merriman and DeMarcus Ware were on the board at that point, and some had one or both rated higher than Rogers.

Are you saying that we should go TE if that's the highest rated player on our board when we go on the clock in the 1st round next draft? I would prefer to trade out of that spot, add more picks, and get a player closer to filling a real need without reaching.

Re: What if ... (the Rookie Class gets it)
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;502774]To your question about a reliable deep threat, I don't know the answer, but I doubt I would want that from next year's draft, because we do need youth elsewhere.[/quote]I agree, if your strategy one year is to go all at one position, you can't draft there in the future years when you have to address other holes.

I think though, that Moss and Randle El are going to be the two guys we rely on for a long time into the future, and that essentially, Davis, Kelly, and Thomas are going to be battling with themselves for the playing time in our singleback sets. I'm doubting that's what Vinny envisioned when he took all of them.

Re: What if ... (the Rookie Class gets it)
 

[quote=SmootSmack;502764]Wait a minute, you mean what if we had some patience and let our draft picks develop the same way we (meaning the team, not the fans) let Rogers, Campbell, and others develop? You mean what if we realized draft picks are not generally All-Pros by the 10th game of their career? What a novel concept![/quote]

Oh, come on SS. Nobody expected All-Pro seasons from Davis, Thomas, and Kelly.

Wasn't it reasonable to expect more than 13 catches and 89 yards [B]combined[/B] from all three? You're making it sound as if we were expecting the equivalent of Irvin, Harper, and Novacek with these guys.

After minicamps, OTAs, training camp, 5 preseason games and 10 regular season games you have the coaches saying that they're still struggling with the playbook.

You can't tell me that these are typical rookie results. There are rookies throughout the league putting all our second round picks to shame.

Re: What if ... (the Rookie Class gets it)
 

[quote=Beemnseven;502803]Oh, come on SS. Nobody expected All-Pro seasons from Davis, Thomas, and Kelly.

Wasn't it reasonable to expect more than 13 catches and 89 yards [B]combined[/B] from all three? You're making it sound as if we were expecting the equivalent of Irvin, Harper, and Novacek with these guys.

After minicamps, OTAs, training camp, 5 preseason games and 10 regular season games you have the coaches saying that they're still struggling with the playbook.

You can't tell me that these are typical rookie results. There are rookies throughout the league putting all our second round picks to shame.[/quote]

The way some people have been posting lately, it sure seems like people are expecting All-Pro numbers. Yes, it's reasonable to expect more at this point. But at the same time, it's seems rather unreasonable to call them busts or blame them for the team's struggles.

I think rookies not making a huge impact on their team through their first 10 games is more the norm, than the exception.

For what it's worth, Irvin's rookie year 32 catches, 5 TDs; Novacek 1 for4 yards; Harper 20 for 326 yards and 1 TD

Re: What if ... (the Rookie Class gets it)
 

[quote=Beemnseven;502803]Oh, come on SS. Nobody expected All-Pro seasons from Davis, Thomas, and Kelly.

Wasn't it reasonable to expect more than 13 catches and 89 yards [B]combined[/B] from all three? You're making it sound as if we were expecting the equivalent of Irvin, Harper, and Novacek with these guys.

After minicamps, OTAs, training camp, 5 preseason games and 10 regular season games you have the coaches saying that they're still struggling with the playbook.

You can't tell me that these are typical rookie results. There are rookies throughout the league putting all our second round picks to shame.[/quote]At the same time, it's too early to tell who is most responsible for that production, and who will be successful in the future.

I think the chances that all three pan out after this rookie season are pretty astronomical. However, I don't think the chance is a whole lot greater that none of them turn out. And it's still too early to lump all three of them together as busts, especially when the most explosive and talented of the three is just now ready to make his way onto the field.

When Malcolm Kelly gets involved in the offense here, I expect those numbers to go up. At least give them these final six games to show they belong.

Re: What if ... (the Rookie Class gets it)
 

[quote=GTripp0012;502767]Jason Taylor is the ace in the hole for the defense down the stretch. Problem is, who are you going to bench for him? Evans has been playing brilliantly in relief of him, and [B]Carter's is our only serious pass rushing threat[/B].

At this point, his only way onto the field is as a linebacker. Which he did a little of in third down packages last game, but we need the additional pass rush, why not use him a little bit in a rotation with Blades on 1st and 2nd downs?[/quote]

Even that's a stretch. And the concerns about Taylor (that he would have difficulty moving to the left side) appear to have been well founded. Opposing teams are more afraid of mice in the locker room than the Taylor/Carter duo. Our d-line is pathetic against the pass and by the end of last season that was our greatest concern.

And herein lies possible criticism of the Redskin draft this year. Forget whether or not the second rounders are busts; any reasonable person knows it's far too early to call that. The problem was why stack up on WRs and a TE when we desperately needed d-linemen? (and as we're starting to see, we need some o-lineman as well).

I think most of us were hoping to see the Skins draft a DE early in the draft this year and though I do expect some of the automatic naysayers to vehemently deny this, we all know they'll be lying when they do.

But the fact is, you can't plug all of your leaks in one draft, and if the Skins can build a decent line through free agency, then the '08 draft might not turn out so bad. As always, it's a wait and see.

Re: What if ... (the Rookie Class gets it)
 

[quote=Coff;502821]Even that's a stretch. And the concerns about Taylor (that he would have difficulty moving to the left side) appear to have been well founded. Opposing teams are more afraid of mice in the locker room than the Taylor/Carter duo. Our d-line is pathetic against the pass and by the end of last season that was our greatest concern.[/quote]

No question the combo has been a disappointment, at least to me. I also expected a bit of a breakout season from Wilson, until I saw him over the summer

[quote]And herein lies possible criticism of the Redskin draft this year. Forget whether or not the second rounders are busts; any reasonable person knows it's far too early to call that. The problem was why stack up on WRs and a TE when we desperately needed d-linemen? (and as we're starting to see, we need some o-lineman as well). [/quote]

Fair point

[quote]I think most of us were hoping to see the Skins draft a DE early in the draft this year and though I do expect some of the automatic naysayers to vehemently deny this, we all know they'll be lying when they do. [/quote]

I deny this! :) I wanted us to sign Justin Smith and draft Kentwan Balmer. I also wanted Thomas or Kelly (not both, and only if they fell to the 2nd round or later) and Rinehart.

[quote]But the fact is, you can't plug all of your leaks in one draft, and if the Skins can build a decent line through free agency, then the '08 draft might not turn out so bad. As always, it's a wait and see.[/quote]

Good conclusion.

Re: What if ... (the Rookie Class gets it)
 

Kinda hard to evaluate any of the rookies when they are not getting on the field for whatever reason. If you listened to Zorn or what Zorn wants you to believe all the rookies are special ed and don't get the offense. I wonder how much of that is Zorn setting the team up for the second half of the year....oh wait we are there. The big question is are the rookies the rabbits Zorn is planning to pull out of a hat at some point or are they truely slow on getting the offense.

Also I for one would think as long as most of your team is coming back each year then drafting for best available player is the best idea, but if you have needs or wholes that need to be filled then you have to draft for that hole. Hopefully next year we pick up some higher round DL or OL. As long as we have no injuries we will be set at CB with 2 young CB's in Hall and Rogers. I think we are set at LB but we could pick one up in later rounds, set at WR, RB, QB, and TE. Our issues on offense are G, OT, on defense its DL possibly another DE if we don't start seeing more out of Taylor, and James.

Re: What if ... (the Rookie Class gets it)
 

if you hit 66% in the 2nd round, that's successful (cause the outlay of cash on a 2nd rounder is only $1mill a year or so, so the risk just isn't there... they just aren't matt ryan type contracts).

I'm still wary of kelly's knee long term, but i think davis will work out eventually... I think devin is going to need 3 or 4 years though - he missed a lot of playing time in college (not starting or skipping a year) and he's going to have to make that up now. 4 year ncaa starting WRs just seem to transition soo much better into the nfl game (cause they generally have an entire year to focus on weights and refining details after showing they're ready to play).

Re: What if ... (the Rookie Class gets it)
 

[quote=GTripp0012;502767]Jason Taylor is the ace in the hole for the defense down the stretch. Problem is, who are you going to bench for him? Evans has been playing brilliantly in relief of him, and Carter's is our only serious pass rushing threat.

At this point, his only way onto the field is as a linebacker. Which he did a little of in third down packages last game, but we need the additional pass rush, why not use him a little bit in a rotation with Blades on 1st and 2nd downs?[/quote]

I like the idea. In the right matchups he is clearly a better option at LB for us than Blades. I like Blades as depth but he isn't a starter obviously. If Taylor can play OLD a bit and be a pass rusher with only minimal coverage responsibilities then that plays to his strengths. Line him up behind Carter and try to block those two coming from the same side...or run the ball the other way at Evans. Why haven't we done this before?

Re: What if ... (the Rookie Class gets it)
 

[quote=Beemnseven;502803]Oh, come on SS. Nobody expected All-Pro seasons from Davis, Thomas, and Kelly.

Wasn't it reasonable to expect more than 13 catches and 89 yards [B]combined[/B] from all three? You're making it sound as if we were expecting the equivalent of Irvin, Harper, and Novacek with these guys.

After minicamps, OTAs, training camp, 5 preseason games and 10 regular season games you have the coaches saying that they're still struggling with the playbook.

You can't tell me that these are typical rookie results. There are rookies throughout the league putting all our second round picks to shame.[/quote]

We run a pass offense predicated on timing and precision. Our two WRs draft basically missed all of training camp when the offenses are installed and practice. They don't practice the offense technically during the season. They implement the game plans. If they didn't get the work involving their timing and routes before the season I DO see why they are struggling to get things perfectly right. I question more about our use of them than about their abilities. I think if we loosen the reins a bit and got them coached up on a small chunk of the play-book and used them for that we'd better off than waiting for them to know everything perfectly. It seems we did that some with Kelly yesterday. Maybe Thomas is just a dope.

Re: What if ... (the Rookie Class gets it)
 

I like this thread.

I've been a big critic of Devin Thomas so far, becuase he's been 100% healthy all year, and has struggled to see the field becuase of mental miscues/playbook blunders. For someone as physically gifted as he is, missing out on playing time becuase you aren't studying hard enough is inexcusable.

Kelly has great potential but hasn't been healthy- I put that on our front office becuase they knew full well he had a knee issue prior to the draft. Hopefully it's behind him now, but we'll see.

Fred Davis never had much hope of producing this year, or any year as long as Cooley is healthy. Cooley is a pro-bowl TE in his mid-20's. Why we'd use a high pick for his back up seems kinda silly.

[B]WHAT IF[/B] we had used 1 or 2 of those top 3 picks to build a stronger line of scrimmage (on either side of the ball), and ALSO drafted the best WR available with 1 of those picks as well?

Re: What if ... (the Rookie Class gets it)
 

This is a #3 defense in the NFL...if it ain't broke don't fix it. On the offensive side it appears we're not as far ahead as I would like. Still, I like what I saw from Zorn yesterday. He actually called on Campbell's number a few times to keep the defense honest...something miserably absent the last few weeks. I like the reinsertion of screens and bootlegs into the game plan.

Re: What if ... (the Rookie Class gets it)
 

[quote=saden1;503733]This is a #3 defense in the NFL...if it ain't broke don't fix it. On the offensive side it appears we're not as far ahead as I would like. Still, I like what I saw from Zorn yesterday. He actually called on Campbell's number a few times to keep the defense honest...something miserably absent the last few weeks. I like the reinsertion of screens and bootlegs into the game plan.[/quote]

Could'nt agree more!

Re: What if ... (the Rookie Class gets it)
 

[quote=FRPLG;503670]I like the idea.[B] In the right matchups he is clearly a better option at LB for us than Blades. I like Blades as depth but he isn't a starter obviously. [/B]If Taylor can play OLD a bit and be a pass rusher with only minimal coverage responsibilities then that plays to his strengths. Line him up behind Carter and try to block those two coming from the same side...or run the ball the other way at Evans. Why haven't we done this before?[/quote]

Blades has been more than a capable back up. And I'm going bet that Blades will be the starter here in the near future. You'd rather put Taylor at LB?? You gotta be kidding me. JT is a pass rushing DE, not a LB.

Re: What if ... (the Rookie Class gets it)
 

I do not blame the coaches because I do not see the practice field, but why isn't Devin Thomas at least giving a boost from punt returns?

Re: What if ... (the Rookie Class gets it)
 

[quote=skinsfan69;503907]Blades has been more than a capable back up. And I'm going bet that Blades will be the starter here in the near future. You'd rather put Taylor at LB?? You gotta be kidding me. JT is a pass rushing DE, not a LB.[/quote]I agree, in the sense that he wouldn't take on blocks any better at LB than he would at DE, but we're getting thinner at LB so it may be a chance to get him on the field. Same problems though, but at least we don't have to take Evans off the field.