Riley steps down as Heat coach
 

[url=http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3372092]ESPN - Riley steps down as Heat coach, will be replaced by assistant Spoelstra - NBA[/url]

Pat Riley's worst season as coach of the Miami Heat will be his last.

The Hall of Famer resigned as coach Monday but remains team president. Erik Spoelstra, a 37-year-old assistant, will succeed Riley and become the NBA's youngest current coach. Spoelstra has never been a head coach at any level outside the NBA's summer league.

Miami finished the season with the NBA's poorest record (15-67) and, by far, the worst of Riley's 25-year career.

"I look forward to the challenge," said Spoelstra, who received word of the decision over the weekend.

As president, Riley will continue overseeing the plan to rebuild a franchise that's just two years removed from a championship, after deciding that he'd best benefit the franchise by working exclusively from the front office.

Rank Riley among the top coaches in the history of the NBA

[url=http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/sportsnation/polling?event_id=3470]ESPN: SportsNation Polling - 3470 - SportsNation[/url]

Where does everyone rank him in, the top 20, 10 , 5?

Re: Riley steps down as Heat coach
 

He's been a great coach...but he was drafted by the Cowboys!

Seriously though, great coach but he kind of put me off by quitting on his team and then firing Stan Van Gundy right when the team was on the verge of winning it all. To his credit, the Heat did in a title under him. And then he went "scouting" for the team in the midst of their 1-22 streak this year. Bailing again (in my opinion)

Re: Riley steps down as Heat coach
 

He'll be back. :D

Re: Riley steps down as Heat coach
 

Yeah, he's a jerk and that title is Van Gundy's as far as I am concerned.

Re: Riley steps down as Heat coach
 

I wish he stayed on, I was loving the Heat's record this season. I would say good luck to his replacement but seeing as how I dislike the Heat I couldn't care less, I hope he has little to no success and I also hope he trades D-Wade for a ham sandwich.

Re: Riley steps down as Heat coach
 

[QUOTE=djnemo65;448186]Yeah, he's a jerk and that title is Van Gundy's as far as I am concerned.[/QUOTE]

How can you possibly say that?
Stan Van Gundy had a great 04-05 when he took the Heat to 1st place (59-23 record), but he came out of the gates like a lame duck in 05-06 when in his first 21 games he went 11-10. Riley took over and took the team to a 41-20 record from there on out.
This year was only the 6th time in his 24 year career that he did not take a team to a first place finish. (in 2 of those 6 years he finished 2nd) That's AMAZING. Only 3 times did he not guide his team to the playoffs. He's a 5 time NBA champion! I personally dislike the guy due to the Celtics / Lakers rivalry, but I respect the man as a coach...he did one hell of a job and is most certainly in the top 5 all time.
He's too old for this. He did what he went to Miami to do...turn around a franchise. He did the same thing in New York and in L.A.

Re: Riley steps down as Heat coach
 

[QUOTE=jsarno;448226]How can you possibly say that?
Stan Van Gundy had a great 04-05 when he took the Heat to 1st place (59-23 record), but he came out of the gates like a lame duck in 05-06 when in his first 21 games he went 11-10. Riley took over and took the team to a 41-20 record from there on out.
This year was only the 6th time in his 24 year career that he did not take a team to a first place finish. (in 2 of those 6 years he finished 2nd) That's AMAZING. Only 3 times did he not guide his team to the playoffs. He's a 5 time NBA champion! I personally dislike the guy due to the Celtics / Lakers rivalry, but I respect the man as a coach...he did one hell of a job and is most certainly in the top 5 all time.
He's too old for this. He did what he went to Miami to do...turn around a franchise. He did the same thing in New York and in L.A.[/QUOTE]

Haha, OK Jsarno, Riley turned around the 80's Lakers, lol. Even though they had already won a championship two years before Riley became coach and had arguably the greatest roster in the history of the sport. That's not to say Riley wasn't the right guy for that job - obviously he got it done - but there's a difference between turning a team around and stepping in to take over a team loaded with talent.

When he resurfaced with the Knicks it was a similar story. He took over the team that probably had more talent than any other in the league and the best center of his generation, however this time he wasn't able to get it done in the playoffs. His decision to encourage Starks to keep shooting in the 94 Finals lingers as one of the all time playoff coaching bungles, imo.

With the Knicks roster aging Riley bolted for Miami amidst controversy. Same story, current team aging, new opportunity with a talented team with a dominant center, Riley says peace.

Heat don't win the big one, Zo gets sick, rosters gutted, Riley's gone..then we get to the Van Gundy episode, in which I'm not sure you realize Van Gundy wasn't fired. He was pushed out amidst strange circumstances, in my unsubstantiated opinion, by a guy who smelled a championship close.

Look, Riley belongs in any top 10 discussion of all time great coaches, but he has a record of leaving teams as soon as things get tough which is not admirable. Most egregious was taking time off to scout this year when the team was tanking, which Smoot mentioned. For these reasons he'll always be a jerk to me, championships or not. At least Phil came back to coach the Lakers during a transitional phase for them.

Re: Riley steps down as Heat coach
 

What a dick, leaving when it gets tough.

Re: Riley steps down as Heat coach
 

djnemo, all the reasons you point out about Riley, can be said about Phil Jackson. took over a loaded bulls team, and even after Shaq left the lakers the cupboard wasn't bare. Kobe, in many circles, is considered the best player in the league. so there was a small drop off, but not much. i can almost guarantee Jackson's retirement, if the lakers didnt make the playoffs this year. to me, those 2 guys are very similar.

Re: Riley steps down as Heat coach
 

[QUOTE=dmek25;448311]djnemo, all the reasons you point out about Riley, can be said about Phil Jackson. took over a loaded bulls team, and even after Shaq left the lakers the cupboard wasn't bare. Kobe, in many circles, is considered the best player in the league. so there was a small drop off, but not much. i can almost guarantee Jackson's retirement, if the lakers didnt make the playoffs this year. to me, those 2 guys are very similar.[/QUOTE]

Cool, glad to know how you feel about Jackson.

Re: Riley steps down as Heat coach
 

[QUOTE=djnemo65;448240]Haha, OK Jsarno, Riley turned around the 80's Lakers, lol. Even though they had already won a championship two years before Riley became coach and had arguably the greatest roster in the history of the sport. That's not to say Riley wasn't the right guy for that job - obviously he got it done - but there's a difference between turning a team around and stepping in to take over a team loaded with talent. [/quote]

You're right...I used the wrong term there. He didn't turn around the team...but he did lead one of the best dynasties in the history of any sport.

[quote]When he resurfaced with the Knicks it was a similar story. He took over the team that probably had more talent than any other in the league and the best center of his generation, however this time he wasn't able to get it done in the playoffs. His decision to encourage Starks to keep shooting in the 94 Finals lingers as one of the all time playoff coaching bungles, imo. [/quote]

I completely disagree here. The Knicks had averaged only 35 wins in the 7 seasons before Riley showed up. The 4 years he was there they averaged 55.75 wins a season. That's a huge turn around!
Also, Starks averaged 19 points a game in the regular season and was an all-star, only Ewing averaged more, and Oakley was 3rd with 11.8. They NEEDED starks to shoot. Shooters are meant to shoot. That's just the way it is. It burnt the Knicks, but in no way is that even remotely a poor coaching choice.

[quote]With the Knicks roster aging Riley bolted for Miami amidst controversy. Same story, current team aging, new opportunity with a talented team with a dominant center, Riley says peace.[/quote]

There had been talk about him loving Miami for years and could easily move over there. New York is a crappy place to coach, even when you do well, you're on the hot seat. He made the wise choice. Regardless of how you look at it, why does it matter if he leaves when the talent goes away? He rode them to the end of the road...can't fault him for that. You need to enjoy the ride. Look at Gibbs...he left us the first time around when all the talent was OLD. Come to think of it, he did it the 2nd time around too.

[quote]Heat don't win the big one, Zo gets sick, rosters gutted, Riley's gone..then we get to the Van Gundy episode, in which I'm not sure you realize Van Gundy wasn't fired. He was pushed out amidst strange circumstances, in my unsubstantiated opinion, by a guy who smelled a championship close.[/quote]

Stan Van Gundy was not playing the team to it's full potential...thus the 11-10 record. It was the smart choice.

[quote]Look, Riley belongs in any top 10 discussion of all time great coaches, but he has a record of leaving teams as soon as things get tough which is not admirable. Most egregious was taking time off to scout this year when the team was tanking, which Smoot mentioned. For these reasons he'll always be a jerk to me, championships or not. At least Phil came back to coach the Lakers during a transitional phase for them.[/QUOTE]

I won't argue that's he a jerk...I don't like him at all. I just don't see why you want to begrudge someone for not wanting to go through a rebuilding phase.

Re: Riley steps down as Heat coach
 

Stan Van Gundy's head coaching career at Miami shouldn't be seen as only the 11-10 record just before he "resigned"

I believe his first year he coaching the Heat went from 25 wins to 42 wins, the next year they won a conference high 59 games and took the Pistons to a game 7 in the Eastern Conference finals.

Finally, that 11-10 start. It should be noted that Shaq missed 18 of those games due to injury.

Re: Riley steps down as Heat coach
 

[quote=SmootSmack;448531]Stan Van Gundy's head coaching career at Miami shouldn't be seen as only the 11-10 record just before he "resigned"

I believe his first year he coaching the Heat went from 25 wins to 42 wins, the next year they won a conference high 59 games and took the Pistons to a game 7 in the Eastern Conference finals.

Finally, that 11-10 start. It should be noted that Shaq missed 18 of those games due to injury.[/quote]

Not to metion the job he did with the Magic this year. If they keep those guys together, they're going to very good for years to come. Ron Jeremy (Stan Van Gundy) is a solid coach.

Re: Riley steps down as Heat coach
 

[QUOTE=jsarno;448523]I won't argue that's he a jerk...I don't like him at all. I just don't see why you want to begrudge someone for not wanting to go through a rebuilding phase.[/QUOTE]

Because it's like not spending time with your girlfriend or wife when she's on her period, only to ride into town when she's good to go. It's a jerk move.

Re: Riley steps down as Heat coach
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;448531]Stan Van Gundy's head coaching career at Miami shouldn't be seen as only the 11-10 record just before he "resigned"

I believe his first year he coaching the Heat went from 25 wins to 42 wins, the next year [b]they won a conference high 59 games[/b] and took the Pistons to a game 7 in the Eastern Conference finals.

Finally, that 11-10 start. It should be noted that Shaq missed 18 of those games due to injury.[/QUOTE]

That's one of the problems, they were widely regarded as the best in the East, and they were picked to win it all...so the perception (right or wrong) was that they should have won it all and didn't (not even close actually). So a slow start meant the writing was on the wall.
Fact is, Riley did what Van Gundy couldn't / didn't do, and Riley did it with less talent IMO.

Re: Riley steps down as Heat coach
 

[QUOTE=djnemo65;448536]Because it's like not spending time with your girlfriend or wife when she's on her period, only to ride into town when she's good to go. It's a jerk move.[/QUOTE]

Interesting analogy.

So Gibbs is a jerk for bailing on us the first time around? Cause no doubt about it, and no arguement about it, we had extremely aging talent. To me, Gibbs did exactly what Riley did...he didn't want to stick around for a rebuilding phase, and made an excuse as to why to leave. I don't begrudge Gibbs, so I don't begrudge Riley.

Re: Riley steps down as Heat coach
 

[QUOTE=jsarno;448713]That's one of the problems, they were widely regarded as the best in the East, and they were picked to win it all...so the perception (right or wrong) was that they should have won it all and didn't (not even close actually). So a slow start meant the writing was on the wall.
Fact is, Riley did what Van Gundy couldn't / didn't do, and Riley did it with less talent IMO.[/QUOTE]

It's like you didn't even read what I wrote. Am I on your ignore list or something?

Re: Riley steps down as Heat coach
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;448718]It's like you didn't even read what I wrote. Am I on your ignore list or something?[/QUOTE]

Yes, I responded to you.

You are trying to say that Van Gundy took the Heat to the conference finals...well that wasn't good enough. That's what I'm saying. That was considered a failure, not a success. You are implying it was a success.

Again, Riley took them to the finals with less talent, Van Gundy had more talent and couldn't take them to the finals.

So did I misinterpret you or something?

It takes a lot for me to put someone on the ignore list. A LOT! (only 1 in all the time I've been here)

Re: Riley steps down as Heat coach
 

[QUOTE=jsarno;448719]Yes, I responded to you.

You are trying to say that Van Gundy took the Heat to the conference finals...well that wasn't good enough. That's what I'm saying. That was considered a failure, not a success. You are implying it was a success.

Again, Riley took them to the finals with less talent, Van Gundy had more talent and couldn't take them to the finals.

So did I misinterpret you or something?

It takes a lot for me to put someone on the ignore list. A LOT! (only 1 in all the time I've been here)[/QUOTE]

I don't see how Riley took them with less talent. Van Gundy got them from 25 wins to 42 wins to 59 wins (and a game 7 conference finals loss). Then the next season he was fired after 21 games in spite of the fact that Shaq (probably the most dominant player in the game at the time) missed 18 of those games.

Re: Riley steps down as Heat coach
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;448734]I don't see how Riley took them with less talent. [/quote]

I believe Eddie Jones and Damon Jones (.432 3 pt%) to be better players than Jason Williams, and Antoine Walker for instance. Walker was probably THE most overrated player I ever saw in my entire life, and possibly the most overrated player in history.
Van Gundy had better role players. I am still surprised a team with Payton on it won it all. Then again, Gary took a major back seat role with Riley, so that's a good reason.

[quote]Van Gundy got them from 25 wins to 42 wins to 59 wins (and a game 7 conference finals loss).[/quote]

Riley took them from 32 to 42 to 61...what's your point?
Point is, Van Gundy SHOULD have won it all, and he didn't. It took Riley's coaching ability to get it done no matter how you want to slice it.

[quote]Then the next season he was fired after 21 games in spite of the fact that Shaq (probably the most dominant player in the game at the time) missed 18 of those games.[/QUOTE]

Shaq only averaged 20.0 and 9.2 boards that season. He also had a pathetic 46.9% FT percentage. Also had 2.8 turnovers a game on average (high for a center), and a very high 3.9 fouls per game. It's not like Chicago losing Jordan, or the Celts losing Bird, or LA losing Magic...or even Kobe. I understand the point, but Van Gundy still had an unstoppable Wade.

Again, Van Gundy's heat was EXPECTED to win it all, and underacheived, while Riley actually won it all. Can't really complain about that. If we kicked Gibbs out after say a 5-5 season, and hired anyone and that coach took us to a SB victory, I would care less that we fired Gibbs regardless of circumstance. EVERY decision a team makes should have one goal in it's sights...winning it all. Riley did it, Van Gundy didn't. It's that simple. And it's not like Van Gundy didn't have his shot. He did, and blew it.

Re: Riley steps down as Heat coach
 

[QUOTE=jsarno;448716]Interesting analogy.

So Gibbs is a jerk for bailing on us the first time around? Cause no doubt about it, and no arguement about it, we had extremely aging talent. To me, Gibbs did exactly what Riley did...he didn't want to stick around for a rebuilding phase, and made an excuse as to why to leave. I don't begrudge Gibbs, so I don't begrudge Riley.[/QUOTE]

I swear arguing with you is like trying to convince a kid that Pokemon isn't sweet.

Over the course of this thread you've gone from Riley being a jerk but an amazing coach to Riley never having done anything questionable in his whole career and Van Gundy being a notch above Bin Laden.

And Gibbs had diabetes. And he wanted to see his family more. And he didn't come back with another loaded team two years later. So I am not sure exactly the same is the way I would describe their respective career trajectories.

Re: Riley steps down as Heat coach
 

im with dj on this one. i had yo say that, because it seems like it doesn't happen much.

Re: Riley steps down as Heat coach
 

[QUOTE=jsarno;448740]I believe Eddie Jones and Damon Jones (.432 3 pt%) to be better players than Jason Williams, and Antoine Walker for instance. Walker was probably THE most overrated player I ever saw in my entire life, and possibly the most overrated player in history.
Van Gundy had better role players. I am still surprised a team with Payton on it won it all. Then again, Gary took a major back seat role with Riley, so that's a good reason.[/QUOTE]

Ok, well that's just your opinion versus mine


[QUOTE]Riley took them from 32 to 42 to 61...what's your point?
Point is, Van Gundy SHOULD have won it all, and he didn't. It took Riley's coaching ability to get it done no matter how you want to slice it. [/QUOTE]

I wasn't knocking Riley's coaching abilities, just saying don't ignore what Van Gundy had accomplished and wasn't given the opportunity to complete

[QUOTE]Shaq only averaged 20.0 and 9.2 boards that season. He also had a pathetic 46.9% FT percentage. Also had 2.8 turnovers a game on average (high for a center), and a very high 3.9 fouls per game. It's not like Chicago losing Jordan, or the Celts losing Bird, or LA losing Magic...or even Kobe. I understand the point, but Van Gundy still had an unstoppable Wade.[/QUOTE]

Not so much now, but back then just Shaq's mere presence on the court made his teammates better

[QUOTE]Again, Van Gundy's heat was EXPECTED to win it all, and underacheived, while Riley actually won it all. Can't really complain about that. If we kicked Gibbs out after say a 5-5 season, and hired anyone and that coach took us to a SB victory, I would care less that we fired Gibbs regardless of circumstance. EVERY decision a team makes should have one goal in it's sights...winning it all. Riley did it, Van Gundy didn't. It's that simple. And it's not like Van Gundy didn't have his shot. He did, and blew it.[/QUOTE]

Fine. But if Zorn took us to an OT loss in the NFC championship game this year and then next year we get off to a 5-5 start with Portis missing 8 of the games and then fire Zorn, I think it'd be ridiculous to say Zorn was a failure or underachiever

Re: Riley steps down as Heat coach
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;448773]Fine. But if Zorn took us to an OT loss in the NFC championship game this year and then next year we get off to a 5-5 start with Portis missing 8 of the games and then fire Zorn, I think it'd be ridiculous to say Zorn was a failure or underachiever[/QUOTE]

I only quoted the above part because I agree with your other comments.

The above quoted comments stopped too early though. (assuming your scenario) If, let's say Cowher, took over for Zorn after he was fired, and Cowher took us to a [b]SB win[/b], would it matter what happened to Zorn? Especially assuming we had the widely regarded best team in the NFC the year before.

Re: Riley steps down as Heat coach
 

[QUOTE=djnemo65;448765]I swear arguing with you is like trying to convince a kid that Pokemon isn't sweet. [/quote]

See, this is where people need to pay attention and not just wildly assume things. This is a classic case of people sniffing their own farts (yes that's a south park reference)

[quote]Over the course of this thread you've gone from Riley being a jerk but an amazing coach to Riley never having done anything questionable in his whole career[/quote]

When did I EVER say he did nothing questionable in "his whole career"? I obviously think he's jerk, so you are CLEARLY wrong with this ASSUMPTION. All I'm saying is, you can't fault a guy for not wanting to rebuild.

[quote]and Van Gundy being a notch above Bin Laden. [/quote]

Never once did I say Van Gundy sucked, or he was a terrorist, or that he was worthless human being, or whatever the hell you are trying to assume. All I said was Van Gundy didn't get it done, and Riley did.

[quote]And Gibbs had diabetes. And he wanted to see his family more. And he didn't come back with another loaded team two years later. So I am not sure exactly the same is the way I would describe their respective career trajectories.[/QUOTE]

Well, the diabetes should mean nothing considering he then worked 18 hours a day in NASCAR practically the day after he retired from the skins. I understand that he wanted to see his family more cause one of Gibbs comments was that he went to kiss his son goodbye and his son had a beard. He also said he was burnt out and needed the rest (which he clearly didn't get) and that is very similar to Riley. I'm not saying their careers had identical trajectories, and for you to assume that is pretty poor debating skills. What you are saying is, Riley left because his talent level dropped, and shame on him for doing so, but when Gibbs did it (for whatever reason) it's completely 100% acceptable. I say in both cases, there is nothing wrong with it. When you feel your time is up for any reason, then so be it. Haven't you quit a job that you were tired of?

In summation, you complain about my arguing tactics when it fact when you point your finger there is 3 pointing back at you, then you assume, assume, and assume some more with nothing even remotely solid to go on, even going so far as to ignore what has already been posted. Great post dj.
You've been here long enough to argue better than this. But hey, everyone has some poor posts. Go regroup and I'll see you later for a better, more productive discussion. ;)

Re: Riley steps down as Heat coach
 

It isn't like he is quitting because he is "tired" he is quitting because it's hard. I know people quit work all the time, but not because it gets difficult, if they do they are no better than Riley. You quit because of personal reasons, family, career moves, etc. I see no reason why Riley has quit for any of those reasons.

Re: Riley steps down as Heat coach
 

[QUOTE=hooskins;448852]It isn't like he is quitting because he is "tired" he is quitting because it's hard. I know people quit work all the time, but not because it gets difficult, if they do they are no better than Riley. You quit because of personal reasons, family, career moves, etc. I see no reason why Riley has quit for any of those reasons.[/QUOTE]

I guess I try to see it from their perspective, not as a spectator. I seem to be the only person here that doesn't care about this issue, while others seem to think it's a big deal. To each his own. We're going to have to agree to disagree...after all, it's all about opinions.
I'll leave you with this, if you were stinkin rich, and you coached a dynasty, would you want to go through a rebuilding phase (or as you put it, a difficult change)?
If this discussion is about who was the best coach to bring a team from the ashes to riches, then Riley would not be in my top ten, or even top 50. But we can't ignore the amazing numbers he put up. He's top 5 all time. Not to point out the obvious, but he's tied for third in all time championships. That's huge!

Re: Riley steps down as Heat coach
 

[QUOTE=jsarno;448806]I only quoted the above part because I agree with your other comments.

The above quoted comments stopped too early though. (assuming your scenario) If, let's say Cowher, took over for Zorn after he was fired, and Cowher took us to a [b]SB win[/b], would it matter what happened to Zorn? Especially assuming we had the widely regarded best team in the NFC the year before.[/QUOTE]

Let's look at it this way. I think you said once your wife is an HR director at some college or something like that. Ok, let's suppose instead that she's the head coach for the women's basketball team at the University of New Mexico. In her first year with the team they go from a 3-27 record the year before she became head coach to a 16-14 record. Then in year two, she gets them to a 24-6 record and they lose in the NCAA Women's Tournament Semifinals. Then in year three, her star player goes down in game two of the season and they get off to a 5-4 start and she gets fired.

You wouldn't be upset about that? You wouldn't think that was a bit unfair?