Contract Renegotiations have begun
 

Per JLC the Redskins have begun contract renegotiations with both Andre Carter and Randy Thomas. As Crazy Canuck and Schneed pointed out this should be the first of many renegotiations......
[url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/02/06/AR2008020604292.html]washingtonpost.com[/url]

[I]Redskins Note:[/I] The Redskins began creating salary cap space by renegotiating the contracts of guard [URL="http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Randy+Thomas?tid=informline"][COLOR=#0000ff]Randy Thomas[/COLOR][/URL] and defensive end [URL="http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Andre+Carter?tid=informline"][COLOR=#0000ff]Andre Carter[/COLOR][/URL], league sources said. The team entered the offseason $20 million over the 2008 salary cap and could restructure 12 ore more contracts.

Re: Contract Renegotiations have begun
 

I think we could do our cap problems a favor and let go jansen, too many injuries.

Re: Contract Renegotiations have begun
 

[quote=Campbell17;418952]I think we could do our cap problems a favor and let go jansen, too many injuries.[/quote]


Jansen is not going anywhere

Re: Contract Renegotiations have begun
 

[QUOTE=Campbell17;418952]I think we could do our cap problems a favor and let go jansen, too many injuries.[/QUOTE]

And who would we get to replace him? There aren't many options in free agency and, IMO, we could use our draft picks at other positions. Jansen has certainly lost a step since 2002 or so, but last season made me REALLY appreciate him.

Re: Contract Renegotiations have begun
 

Here is further updates on the renogotiations - I don't know who updates the cap pages but I am sure this will get in somewhere with the reworked contracts JLC says has happened....


[url=http://blog.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/]Redskins Insider[/url]
Anyway, for those interested in the minutia, the Redskins have reworked the contracts of 3 players thus far- Randy Thomas, Andre Carter and Antwaan Randle El, with at least a half dozen more to come. According to a source with knowledge of the situation, here's the breakdown:
Randy Thomas went from a cap figure of 8.0 million to 4.1
Andre Carter went from 4.9 to 2.8 (the team guaranteed his June 1 roster bonus of $2.4 million as part of the deal)
ARE went from 4.1 to 2.7
So the Redskins saved 7.6 mil in cap space with these moves. They're top 51 (salaries) for 2008 now stands at $132 million, $16 million over the cap, "by far the most in the NFL," according to my guy.
Now, again, don't panic. They'll trim $9 million on Chris Cooley alone and will easily end up with room to chase other free agents. They'll keep guaranteeing salary and pushing things back and extending contracts. But, I ask, as a practice, how much success - Ws and Ls, we're talking - has this strategy brought with it?
Well, regardless, the song remains the same. Restructuring season is upon us. Enjoy!

Re: Contract Renegotiations have begun
 

How does $20M - $7.6M = $16M?

Re: Contract Renegotiations have begun
 

[quote=Mattyk72;419239]How does $20M - $7.6M = $16M?[/quote]
Come on Matty.... Its that "fuzzy math" thing again. Its first grade stuff man!

Re: Contract Renegotiations have begun
 

[quote=Bill B;419236]Here is further updates on the renogotiations - I don't know who updates the cap pages but I am sure this will get in somewhere with the reworked contracts JLC says has happened....


[URL="http://blog.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/"]Redskins Insider[/URL]
Anyway, for those interested in the minutia, the Redskins have reworked the contracts of 3 players thus far- Randy Thomas, Andre Carter and Antwaan Randle El, with at least a half dozen more to come. According to a source with knowledge of the situation, here's the breakdown:
Randy Thomas went from a cap figure of 8.0 million to 4.1
Andre Carter went from 4.9 to 2.8 (the team guaranteed his June 1 roster bonus of $2.4 million as part of the deal)
ARE went from 4.1 to 2.7
So the Redskins saved 7.6 mil in cap space with these moves. They're top 51 (salaries) for 2008 now stands at $132 million, $16 million over the cap, "by far the most in the NFL," according to my guy.
Now, again, don't panic. They'll trim $9 million on Chris Cooley alone and will easily end up with room to chase other free agents. They'll keep guaranteeing salary and pushing things back and extending contracts. But, I ask, as a practice, how much success - Ws and Ls, we're talking - has this strategy brought with it?
Well, regardless, the song remains the same. Restructuring season is upon us. Enjoy![/quote]If Cooley hasn't already restructured, then he probably doesn't have an 11 million dollar roster bonus due. I think CrazyCanuck's position here makes more sense than JLC. Either way, we're talking 7-8 million over the cap, and Portis, Samuels, and Betts alone should get us under.

Re: Contract Renegotiations have begun
 

[quote=Mattyk72;419239]How does $20M - $7.6M = $16M?[/quote]


I agree - should be $12.4M - I guess JLC tries to get his insider updated and sometimes doesn't double check what he writes. Plus the moves 3 moves he said add up to savings of $7.4 and not $7.6.

But fuzzy math aside at least the renegotiations have begun in earnest and the cap is being dealt with - I think the earlier this gets done the better as it will give us more flexibility to deal with draft picks, free agents and knowing the Skins FO trades.

Re: Contract Renegotiations have begun
 

[quote=Mattyk72;419239]How does $20M - $7.6M = $16M?[/quote]$20 million was the rough media estimate, but the actual number was closer to $23.

Doesn't matter. Once we factor in Cooley, we are talking 7-8 million over, and that's the figure that matters right now.

Re: Contract Renegotiations have begun
 

[quote=Campbell17;418952]I think we could do our cap problems a favor and let go jansen, too many injuries.[/quote]


do you watch the games?? the guy has had two injuries in his career with the redskins. those two injuries happen to be a torn achilies and a broken leg. So, with your logic, if randy thomas gets hurt one more time, then I guess he should go too?? For the life of me I can not understand where Jansen is all of the sudden labled as a "history" of injuries. the guy is a rock on the right side of the line. He has played with some injuries most guys wouldn't even dress for. Broken thumbs, twisted knees, torn calf, come on, you have to pay closer attention to stuff like this.

Re: Contract Renegotiations have begun
 

My question is why are we the only franchise in the league that does this? Consistently, year in and year out, we are over the cap and are able to restructure contracts turning base salaries into bonuses and then writing down the total cap hit. What is the downside? Is it guaranteed money in future years? It seems like the FO has been able to do this for several years yet no other team in the league is either this creative or this stupid. Every year, we are supposedly in salary cap hell but I haven't even felt it get remotely warm around here. So what is the downside?

Re: Contract Renegotiations have begun
 

[quote=redwagonskins;419261]My question is why are we the only franchise in the league that does this? Consistently, year in and year out, we are over the cap and are able to restructure contracts turning base salaries into bonuses and then writing down the total cap hit. What is the downside? Is it guaranteed money in future years? It seems like the FO has been able to do this for several years yet no other team in the league is either this creative or this stupid. Every year, we are supposedly in salary cap hell but I haven't even felt it get remotely warm around here. So what is the downside?[/quote]

we're the only team. downside is releases cost more (Coles, lloyd), and if the NFL revenues ever level out, we're straight up f$%^ed. all your doing is pushing money down the road, and making a worse situation for future years... but the NFL revenue (and labor deals) have been pushing up the cap enough each year that it hasn't bitten us yet.

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[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;418993]And who would we get to replace him? There aren't many options in free agency and, IMO, we could use our draft picks at other positions. Jansen has certainly lost a step since 2002 or so, but last season made me REALLY appreciate him.[/quote]

The Seattle game REALLY made we appreciate him. Heyer may or may not be a good player one day. But we need Jansen back ready to roll next year.

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[quote=#56fanatic;419257]do you watch the games?? the guy has had two injuries in his career with the redskins. those two injuries happen to be a torn achilies and a broken leg. So, with your logic, if randy thomas gets hurt one more time, then I guess he should go too?? For the life of me I can not understand where Jansen is all of the sudden labled as a "history" of injuries. the guy is a rock on the right side of the line. He has played with some injuries most guys wouldn't even dress for. Broken thumbs, twisted knees, torn calf, come on, you have to pay closer attention to stuff like this.[/quote]

Plus cutting Jansen does not make sense from a CAP perspective. I believe Schneed pointed it in other posts correctly in that dealing with the cap will probably mean cutting one guy here or redoing a contract for another guy there every year - a complete gutting of the team is impossible from a cap perspective and would hurt the product on the field.

Now I think most everyone would agree that if anyone is getting cut this season with a expensive contract it is Brandon Llyod and not Jon Jansen.

Here is a breakdown of Llyod vs. Jansen

Llyod - 2 years on team, 25 catches for a whopping total of 379 yards, 0 (yes a big donut there) touchdowns. In his 5 year career he has 130 catches averaging 26 catches a year and 13 touchdowns averaging 2.6 a year. In addition his off field behavior is nothing to write home about.

Jansen - has been with Skins his entire career and started 112 games for the team over 8 years (averaging 14 games a year). He is a locker room leader and well liked by his teammates. He had 2 of his 8 seasons cut short by injury which as an offensive lineman that constantly gets tangled up is not bad in my opinion.

Now I know that it is impossible to compare an offensive lineman to a reciever, but if I am Vinny Cerrato and had to choose between the two I think it is not even close especially with our current depth on the O-Line as thin as it is.

Re: Contract Renegotiations have begun
 

[quote=That Guy;419268]we're the only team. downside is releases cost more (Coles, lloyd), and if the NFL revenues ever level out, we're straight up f$%^ed. all your doing is pushing money down the road, and making a worse situation for future years... but the NFL revenue (and labor deals) have been pushing up the cap enough each year that it hasn't bitten us yet.[/quote]

Yep, and you also have to have the cash on hand to dole out $10 million in checks in a single day. Just a small issue (though not for DS). Go buy something from the Redskins store to help him pay for it, do your part as a fan/consumer (I'm tapped out after getting my 75th anniversary Campbell Authentic, someone else has got to go help)!

Re: Contract Renegotiations have begun
 

I dont even really see how this team can be twenty million over the cap. If you look at our roster we do not really have many top tier players. Other than Samuels, Portis(may be on the down side of his career), and Cooley we dont have the huge house hold names like Peyton Manning, Brady, Tomlinson etc. We just keep paying decent and mediocre players like they are pro- bowlers. The fact that we have a higher base salary than teams like the Colts, Patriots, Chargers is laughable when you compare wins and losses over the past couple of seasons. In retrospect the Gianst are something like 20 million dollars under the cap and we are twenty over, so we pay our team 40 million dollars more than the team that just won the superbowl.... awesome!

Re: Contract Renegotiations have begun
 

[QUOTE=SC Skins Fan;419296]Yep, and you also have to have the cash on hand to dole out $10 million in checks in a single day. Just a small issue (though not for DS). Go buy something from the Redskins store to help him pay for it, do your part as a fan/consumer ([B]I'm tapped out after getting my 75th anniversary Campbell Authentic[/B], someone else has got to go help)![/QUOTE]

So you're the problem! J/K ;) (see the "Do Sports Athletes Get Paid 2 Much" thread)

Re: Contract Renegotiations have begun
 

[quote=redskins159;419303]I dont even really see how this team can be twenty million over the cap. If you look at our roster we do not really have many top tier players. Other than Samuels, Portis(may be on the down side of his career), and Cooley we dont have the huge house hold names like Peyton Manning, Brady, Tomlinson etc. We just keep paying decent and mediocre players like they are pro- bowlers. The fact that we have a higher base salary than teams like the Colts, Patriots, Chargers is laughable when you compare wins and losses over the past couple of seasons. In retrospect the Gianst are something like 20 million dollars under the cap and we are twenty over, so we pay our team 40 million dollars more than the team that just won the superbowl.... awesome![/quote]

very true & a point that's been made publicly by any no. of media peops, not to mention warpath posters!

I agree w/the capologists here that we won't be in "cap hell" as some like to say, but that doesn't get to the point of how the team acquires & pays players, which seems utterly inefficient w/regards to building a winning team. Last year's offseason was an improvement & I'm hoping for a repeat of that.

Re: Contract Renegotiations have begun
 

[quote=freddyg12;419330]very true & a point that's been made publicly by any no. of media peops, not to mention warpath posters!

I agree w/the capologists here that we won't be in "cap hell" as some like to say, but that doesn't get to the point of how the team acquires & pays players, which seems utterly inefficient w/regards to building a winning team. Last year's offseason was an improvement & I'm hoping for a repeat of that.[/quote]

I agree. Go around the whole offensive roster and you'll see that almost everyone is getting paid big $. There aren't many role players.

Almost the same w/ the D w/ some exceptions like newcomers Doughty, Montgomery, Golston. Yes, that's GW side of the ball too.

What happens when we have to start releasing or cutting some of these high priced players like Springs, Griffin, Daniels, Lloyd, etc. Aren't we going to have to pay the piper at some point? That's what i'm a little worried about.

Can our warpath capologist answer that question?

Re: Contract Renegotiations have begun
 

[quote=Mattyk72;419239]How does $20M - $7.6M = $16M?[/quote]
He went to public schools and received a "B" for trying.

Re: Contract Renegotiations have begun
 

[quote=redskins159;419303]I dont even really see how this team can be twenty million over the cap. If you look at our roster we do not really have many top tier players. Other than Samuels, Portis(may be on the down side of his career), and Cooley we dont have the huge house hold names like Peyton Manning, Brady, Tomlinson etc. We just keep paying decent and mediocre players like they are pro- bowlers. The fact that we have a higher base salary than teams like the Colts, Patriots, Chargers is laughable when you compare wins and losses over the past couple of seasons. In retrospect the Gianst are something like 20 million dollars under the cap and we are twenty over, so we pay our team 40 million dollars more than the team that just won the superbowl.... awesome![/quote]The simple answer is you pay guys like Lloyd and Archuleta as if they were Chad Johnson and Brian Dawkins.

Re: Contract Renegotiations have begun
 

[quote=redsk1;419343]I agree. Go around the whole offensive roster and you'll see that almost everyone is getting paid big $. There aren't many role players.

Almost the same w/ the D w/ some exceptions like newcomers Doughty, Montgomery, Golston. Yes, that's GW side of the ball too.

[B]What happens when we have to start releasing or cutting some of these high priced players like Springs, Griffin, Daniels, Lloyd, etc. Aren't we going to have to pay the piper at some point? That's what i'm a little worried about.[/B]

Can our warpath capologist answer that question?[/quote]

Well you start by not releasing these guys all at once.

Re: Contract Renegotiations have begun
 

[quote=redsk1;419343]What happens when we have to start releasing or cutting some of these high priced players like Springs, Griffin, Daniels, Lloyd, etc. Aren't we going to have to pay the piper at some point? That's what i'm a little worried about. [/quote]If all goes well, by 2009 we won't have a need for any of those guys.

Re: Contract Renegotiations have begun
 

[quote=Mattyk72;419355]Well you start by not releasing these guys all at once.[/quote]


Exactly! So my take on it is bye bye Brandon Llyod this offseason as priority #1. I would also have to say there is no way the Skins are paying Brunell to be a backup at $6.5 million - so he is probably gone too. So those are my 2 prime canidates that will be cut first at Redskins Park this year.
After next year I would say Philip Daniels is a prime canidate to get cut - especially if the Skins get lucky and draft a DE with one of their picks and that DE pans out. I would also think that sooner or later Griffin will probably get cut or restructure at the very least - especially since his release fee goes down in $2.5 M 2009.

Re: Contract Renegotiations have begun
 

[quote=Mattyk72;419355]Well you start by not releasing these guys all at once.[/quote]

My point wasn't for all of them to be released at once. My question is a logical question. We have alot of aging players that are going to have to be released or cut (most likely over the next 2-4 years). I only listed a few players but there are alot more.

What's the cap impact to release players that have been renogiated time and again? Is the cap impact minimal or substancial generally speaking?

Just trying to think ahead a little bit here.

Re: Contract Renegotiations have begun
 

just look at the cap sheets and look at the release fees it's not hard to figure out the cap implications down the road.

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[QUOTE=Mattyk72;419385]just look at the cap sheets and look at the release fees it's not hard to figure out the cap implications down the road.[/QUOTE]

I think we all know that uninformed and emotion based opinions are far and away the most sound opinions out there. Surprised you didn't know that.

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[quote=FRPLG;419387]I think we all know that uninformed and emotion based opinions are far and away the most sound opinions out there. Surprised you didn't know that.[/quote]

Yeah, god forbid we do some homework now and then, right?. LOL

Look, we do have some guys here that are very knowledgeable regarding the cap. But it's not that difficult folks. We have a great resource here with CC's cap sheets. They are very easy to figure out.

The answers are right here:

[URL]http://www.redskinswarpath.com/WarpathRedskinsCap.htm[/URL]

Re: Contract Renegotiations have begun
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;419394]Yeah, god forbid we do some homework now and then, right?. LOL

Look, we do have some guys here that are very knowledgeable regarding the cap. But it's not that difficult folks. We have a great resource here with CC's cap sheets. They are very easy to figure out.

The answers are right here:

[URL]http://www.redskinswarpath.com/WarpathRedskinsCap.htm[/URL][/QUOTE]

I actually went and looked at the sheets and started to write a response outlining why dropping Jansen wouldn't help our cap situation and simply gave up. I know we'll never get more than like 20 people around here to grasp the concepts. I guess I am a bad board member. I should feel more motivated to inform the uninformed.

Re: Contract Renegotiations have begun
 

[quote=Mattyk72;419394]Yeah, god forbid we do some homework now and then, right?. LOL

Look, we do have some guys here that are very knowledgeable regarding the cap. But it's not that difficult folks. We have a great resource here with CC's cap sheets. They are very easy to figure out.

The answers are right here:

[URL]http://www.redskinswarpath.com/WarpathRedskinsCap.htm[/URL][/quote]


Alright, get the point...do some investigation.

Re: Contract Renegotiations have begun
 

Sorry I'm not trying to be rude, I'm really not.

It's just that a lot of these common cap questions can be easily figured out just by looking at the cap sheets.

Re: Contract Renegotiations have begun
 

I think maybe we need a Cap 101 page where the mechanics of the cap are explained as simply as possible.

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[quote=FRPLG;419425]I think maybe we need a Cap 101 page where the mechanics of the cap are explained as simply as possible.[/quote]

Yeah we have floated that idea around here in the past, we certainly have our share of capologists here that could put that together. I'll get cracking on that idea again.

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I've reviewed the cap sheet before...a year or so ago. It's Friday afternoon, and i can't begin to think about breaking down cap ramifications of certain moves. I'll leave that for a rainy day.

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[QUOTE=redsk1;419446]I've reviewed the cap sheet before...a year or so ago. It's Friday afternoon, and i can't begin to think about breaking down cap ramifications of certain moves. I'll leave that for a rainy day.[/QUOTE]

It really isn't difficult at all. CC has even included the release fees to make it easier. To estimate delayed release fees just look at the cap number and remove salary. That is their reuced number for this year. Then look at thier relase fee for next year and that is their dead space next season. Easy peasy.

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I'm gonna do another update this weekend and I'll draw up a Cap 101 thread as well. I'll describe the "cap basics" and maybe we can stick the thread.

I would do it now but I just got back from a 7-hour poker session at the casino. :sleep:

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[URL="http://www.askthecommish.com/salarycap/faq.asp"]Ask The Commish.com - Salary Cap FAQ[/URL]

Here is a pretty good site where I learned as much as I know about the cap. Not the easiest thing in the world to read and rather boring. The Cap has almost become like the tax code. You need a half a dozen lawyers to understand it and another half dozen to figure out how to cheat it.

Re: Contract Renegotiations have begun
 

[quote=FRPLG;419449] Easy peasy.[/quote]


lemon sqeezy ! :)

Re: Contract Renegotiations have begun
 

[quote=Hijinx;419591][URL="http://www.askthecommish.com/salarycap/faq.asp"]Ask The Commish.com - Salary Cap FAQ[/URL]

Here is a pretty good site where I learned as much as I know about the cap. Not the easiest thing in the world to read and rather boring. The Cap has almost become like the tax code. You need a half a dozen lawyers to understand it and another half dozen to figure out how to cheat it.[/quote]I disagree. There's nothing to know about economic policy or accounting in there. It's simple common sense.

The problem with breaking down the cap is that the information is always so hard to find. Canuck basically does all the hard work for us. Using the cap sheets, it really becomes basic addition and subtraction.