Re: Peyton Manning or RGIII your choice
 

[quote=biffle;884500]All of which is irrelevant to my thinking, because I think Manning, even if totally healthy, provides such a small window to win, and one in which he is likely to decline as the team is able to build around him. It's not a recipe for success, imo.

And no, division titles aren't worth much to me. The goal should be Super Bowls, and the team should be building towards them. Which is not the likely path I see with Peyton Manning.[/quote]Signing Peyton Manning reduces the current urgency to find a QB of the future through the use of a 1st round or early round draft picks.
Those early round draft picks can then be used for team building.
Areas like of team like OL, DL, DBs, WRs etc.
It also affords the luxury of developing/grooming a mid-round QB of the future the old fashioned way.
And of course the option to draft the next Robert Griffin in 2014 or 2015 will still be there.

Re: Peyton Manning or RGIII your choice
 

[quote=diehard;884503]It seems like some posters have beef with other posters.[/quote]Not on my end I'm easy breezy.
I come on here to talk football and in an internet forum conversations/discussion can sometimes devolve into quibbling, which I try to avoid.

I try and post in a conversational manner the same way I would talk to a guy sitting next to me watching a game at a sports bar.

Re: Peyton Manning or RGIII your choice
 

[quote=30gut;884506] Signing Peyton Manning reduces the current urgency to find a QB of the future through the use of a 1st round or early round draft picks.
Those early round draft picks can then be used for team building.
Areas like of team like OL, DL, DBs, WRs etc. [/quote]

He'll also use up an awful lot of cap room which could be used towards the same team building.

[quote=30gut;884506] It also affords the luxury of developing/grooming a mid-round QB of the future the old fashioned way. [/quote]

And if we want to use those supposed odds you used earlier, the above plan has a success rate of, what, 5%?

[quote=30gut;884506] And of course the option to draft the next Robert Griffin in 2014 or 2015 will still be there. [/quote]

And he'll win us enough games that we'll be nowhere near the pick you would need to get the next Griffin, meaning it would cost much more than it would now, assuming we even lucked into another situation of a QB as good as Griffin being available and the team holding the pick having no need for a QB.

Re: Peyton Manning or RGIII your choice
 

[quote=biffle;884510]He'll also use up an awful lot of cap room which could be used towards the same team building.[/quote]Maybe, maybe not.
The reports from Manning's camp suggest that he would be willing to structure his contract in favorable manner for the express purpose of not crippling that teams ability to improve.
And Bruce Allen has done a nice job creating cap space to allow them to sign a Peyton Manning.


[quote]And if we want to use those supposed odds you used earlier, the above plan has a success rate of, what, 5%?[/quote]You seem a bit salty huh?
The numbers are whatever the numbers are, the statistical outcome doesn't mean it can't or won't succeed.
We could represent the minor percentage that succeeds.

If you want to crunch the numbers and let me know be my guest.
Lets say Peyton plays for 3 years and each year they draft a developmental QB in the mid-rounds (3rd and down).


[quote]And he'll win us enough games that we'll be nowhere near the pick you would need to get the next Griffin, meaning it would cost much more than it would now, assuming we even lucked into another situation of a QB as good as Griffin being available and the team holding the pick having no need for a QB.[/quote]If we're shouting hypotheticals why not win the SB?
We don't have to get lucky for there to be other great QB prospects, there are great QB in almost every draft class.

And if a team wants a to draft a QB they can always trade up, draft position doesn't have to preclude a team from acquiring the prospect they want.

Re: Peyton Manning or RGIII your choice
 

[quote=30gut;884513]Maybe, maybe not.
The reports from Manning's camp suggest that he would be willing to structure his contract in favorable manner for the express purpose of not crippling that teams ability to improve.
And Bruce Allen has done a nice job creating cap space to allow them to sign a Peyton Manning. [/quote]

And he's still going to cost a lot of money. If you don't think so, you're kidding yourself.

And even assuming this "I'll play for incentives" talk doesn't go completely out the window once the bidding starts, those incentives will be in the likely to be earned category (probably mostly for games played), which means you have to use the cap space anyway and get it back if he doesn't reach them. So either he costs a lot or he's worthlesss, basically.


[quote=30gut;884513]You seem a bit salty huh?
The numbers are whatever the numbers are, the statistical outcome doesn't mean it can't or won't succeed.
We could represent the minor percentage that succeeds.

If you want to crunch the numbers and let me know be my guest.
Lets say Peyton plays for 3 years and each year they draft a developmental QB in the mid-rounds (3rd and down). [/quote]

Facts are facts. And the chances of finding a premier QB in the 3rd round are virtually nil, despite you using several draft picks, which could have gone to the team building you were so concerned with.

[quote=30gut;884513]If we're shouting hypotheticals [/quote]

How is this just a hypothetical? Is the plan actually to sign Manning and have him suck so much we're picking top 10 again?

[quote=30gut;884513]why not win the SB? [/quote]

I've already said I don't see us winning a SB with Peyton.

[quote=30gut;884513]We don't have to get lucky for there to be other great QB prospects, there are great QB in almost every draft class. [/quote]

And they're almost always drafted by the teams with the top picks.

[quote=30gut;884513]And if a team wants a to draft a QB they can always trade up, draft position doesn't have to preclude a team from acquiring the prospect they want. [/quote]

And again, even if it were possible it's going to cost a ton. If you're going to blanch at the price to go from 6 to 2, just wait what it will be to go from the late teens (or lower) to number 1.

Re: Peyton Manning or RGIII your choice
 

did your attorney prepare that post?

Re: Peyton Manning or RGIII your choice
 

[quote=30gut;884508]Not on my end I'm [B][I]easy breezy[/I][/B].
I come on here to talk football and in an internet forum conversations/discussion can sometimes devolve into quibbling, which I try to avoid.

I try and post in a conversational manner the same way I would talk to a guy sitting next to me watching a game at a sports bar.[/quote]

Cover Girl?

Re: Peyton Manning or RGIII your choice
 

too much waaah... a two option poll shouldn't need 287+ posts like this. it's circular and annoying.

Re: Peyton Manning or RGIII your choice
 

and it gave me night terrors last night

Re: Peyton Manning or RGIII your choice
 

[quote=That Guy;884522]too much waaah... a two option poll shouldn't need 287+ posts like this. it's circular and annoying.[/quote]

I imagine it's only gonna get worse after the combine and pro days...

Re: Peyton Manning or RGIII your choice
 

Personally, I would settle for either. Either way is an upgrade on Rex v Beck.

Re: Peyton Manning or RGIII your choice
 

Its a wrap folks. PFT says the fans of Washington don't want P.Manning.
[url=http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/02/11/theres-a-lot-anti-manning-sentiment-in-washington/]There’s a lot anti-Manning sentiment in Washington | ProFootballTalk[/url]

However some of you say we shouldn't listen to PFT with their hack writers. How funny he fails to list the commontators who are for having P.Manning here in Washington. Well the good news is PFT is only speaking for Washington, the very not bright people who would re-elect Mayor Berry after his "I accidently smoked from the crack pipe" incident. I'm so glad he didn't talk about the hooker he had bring it to his motel.

Maybe the writer should see what VA and MD thinks about P.Manning coming to the Skins.

Re: Peyton Manning or RGIII your choice
 

I have to say this thread has turned into the best discussion we've had on this board for quite a while. Lots of good points being tossed around.

I just think the merits of either move should be measured not just on the likelihood that we'll win a superbowl, but also (and perhaps moreso) on the likelihood that we'll set our team back YEARS if we miss.

With Manning, all he costs is cap room. So if he sucks (yeah, right) or isn't right due to injury (possibly), you take a one-year dead cap hit - which won't be that bad given his stated intention to make a palatable deal. Otherwise, it's no harm no foul. You move on to finding your next QB - but by then the team will have the 6th overall pick this year, plus depth from other picks. The cap room Manning takes up comes with an opportunity cost, it represents players we can't sign in free agency. But that assumes our cap may approach the limit, which doesn't make sense given that we're currently something like $35 - $45 million UNDER the cap. And if we're thinking of shopping so much that we might approach that limit with Manning this year, then we're back to taking the wrong approach to free agency - the Cerrato approach. We're not going to do that.

With Griffin, you give up several picks. If he doesn't pan out you've lost significant young depth due to the lost picks. That's depth this team still needs bad. Missing out on that depth completely stalls this team's development in my mind. The lower cap number Griffin represents really isn't a factor either - as stated, we're so far under the cap it almost doesn't matter.

What people are failing to realize here is that with Manning, you KNOW you still need to find the QB of the future. With Griffin, it sure wouldn't make sense to shop for another QB until you realize he's a failure. By the time Griffin reaches failure status, you're scrambling. Manning gives you the benefit of taking your time over the course of three years to find his successor. You're not stuck reaching for someone.

So those arguments all center around the downside risk which is key to the discussion. As for the upside, if you don't think Peyton Manning gives you the upside to make deep playoff runs over the next three years, I can't help you. You're a lost soul.

[QUOTE=Schneed10;884532]I have to say this thread has turned into the best discussion we've had on this board for quite a while. Lots of good points being tossed around.

I just think the merits of either move should be measured not just on the likelihood that we'll win a superbowl, but also (and perhaps moreso) on the likelihood that we'll set our team back YEARS if we miss.

With Manning, all he costs is cap room. So if he sucks (yeah, right) or isn't right due to injury (possibly), you take a one-year dead cap hit - which won't be that bad given his stated intention to make a palatable deal. Otherwise, it's no harm no foul. You move on to finding your next QB - but by then the team will have the 6th overall pick this year, plus depth from other picks. The cap room Manning takes up comes with an opportunity cost, it represents players we can't sign in free agency. But that assumes our cap may approach the limit, which doesn't make sense given that we're currently something like $35 - $45 million UNDER the cap. And if we're thinking of shopping so much that we might approach that limit with Manning this year, then we're back to taking the wrong approach to free agency - the Cerrato approach. We're not going to do that.

With Griffin, you give up several picks. If he doesn't pan out you've lost significant young depth due to the lost picks. That's depth this team still needs bad. Missing out on that depth completely stalls this team's development in my mind. The lower cap number Griffin represents really isn't a factor either - as stated, we're so far under the cap it almost doesn't matter.

What people are failing to realize here is that with Manning, you KNOW you still need to find the QB of the future. With Griffin, it sure wouldn't make sense to shop for another QB until you realize he's a failure. By the time Griffin reaches failure status, you're scrambling. Manning gives you the benefit of taking your time over the course of three years to find his successor. You're not stuck reaching for someone.

So those arguments all center around the downside risk which is key to the discussion. As for the upside, if you don't think Peyton Manning gives you the upside to make deep playoff runs over the next three years, I can't help you. You're a lost soul.[/QUOTE]

I agree, great post. Manning would instantly make us a good team and a contender as long as we give him some help at WR which we can do. I'm all for RG3. But not if it's between him and Manning

Re: Peyton Manning or RGIII your choice
 

[quote=NC_Skins;884419]You playing the race card bro?


[IMG]http://www.frigginrandom.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/race-card-535x433.jpg[/IMG][/quote]

I would usually make this a teachable moment and explain to you why the above post is a tad out of line. However, based on immense number of your posts that I have been forced to endure (the one apparent negative of logging on to this site which, aside from you, I greatly enjoy)....I'll just chalk you up into the ignorant category and move on.

Re: Peyton Manning or RGIII your choice
 

[quote=SBXVII;884530]Its a wrap folks. PFT says the fans of Washington don't want P.Manning.
[url=http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/02/11/theres-a-lot-anti-manning-sentiment-in-washington/]There’s a lot anti-Manning sentiment in Washington | ProFootballTalk[/url]

However some of you say we shouldn't listen to PFT with their hack writers. How funny he fails to list the commontators who are for having P.Manning here in Washington. Well the good news is PFT is only speaking for Washington, the very not bright people who would re-elect Mayor Berry after his "I accidently smoked from the crack pipe" incident. I'm so glad he didn't talk about the hooker he had bring it to his motel.

Maybe the writer should see what VA and MD thinks about P.Manning coming to the Skins.[/quote]

All of the writers quoted in the PFT article speak from a flawed either/or perspective. Their argument is that we should be developing our own QB rather than signing Manning as if only one of those moves is an option.

It seems clear to me that we could do both: add Manning AND add a home-developed QB for the future. If I am correct then all of the arguments quoted by PFT are meaningless.

Re: Peyton Manning or RGIII your choice
 

[quote=NC_Skins;884406]


C'mon guy? Insults? Dude, most of my posts come at work. Yes, I get paid to post on the Warpath and it comes compliments of the taxpayers. Does that make you mad bro? :cool-smil[/quote]

I think that would upset any honest working taxpayer. Your pride in that post speaks volumes about your character...or lack ther of. Taking my current tax bracket into consideration, I don't expect to hear anything from you except...thank you.

How about we just not interact with each other while you continue to be a drain on the US Government's wallet.

Re: Peyton Manning or RGIII your choice
 

[quote=Son Of Man;884540]I think that would upset any honest working taxpayer. Your pride in that post speaks volumes about your character...or lack ther of. Taking my current tax bracket into consideration, I don't expect to hear anything from you except...thank you.

How about we just not interact with each other while you continue to be a drain on the US Government's wallet.[/quote]


Kid, I have no clue who who you are nor do I give a flying ****. I haven't said the first thing to you so if you have your panties in a bunch it's your problem. I you don't like me, put me on ignore and go about your way. If you are going to insult people (much like you did with me and others) and not bring anything else to the table, then I suggest you go over to Extremeskins where you'll be much more suited.

I'm here to talk football and other things. We don't often agree around here, but there is a line of respect we try to maintain. I've apologized a few times when I've been out of line, but I recognize that and correct it. You on the other hand are bitter about something so that's on you.

I find it funny you talk about "character" and yet you sit behind a computer insulting people you have zero clue about. What does that say about your character...or lack there of? I do my work, and my boss doesn't have to ask me twice to do anything. I get incredible reviews on my job. I am the utmost professional at my job. I said that to piss you off and it hit the mark, and for that, I'm glad.

If you got anything else to add (or not add in this case), then send it via PMs. You are detracting away from the discussion going on. Have a nice day.

Re: Peyton Manning or RGIII your choice
 

[quote=SBXVII;884530]Its a wrap folks. PFT says the fans of Washington don't want P.Manning.
[url=http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/02/11/theres-a-lot-anti-manning-sentiment-in-washington/]There’s a lot anti-Manning sentiment in Washington | ProFootballTalk[/url]

However some of you say we shouldn't listen to PFT with their hack writers. How funny he fails to list the commontators who are for having P.Manning here in Washington. Well the good news is PFT is only speaking for Washington, the very not bright people who would re-elect Mayor Berry after his "I accidently smoked from the crack pipe" incident. I'm so glad he didn't talk about the hooker he had bring it to his motel.

Maybe the writer should see what VA and MD thinks about P.Manning coming to the Skins.[/quote]

The first thing PFT got wrong is they listened to Jason Reid.

Re: Peyton Manning or RGIII your choice
 

Unlike Indy if we get PM we will be grooming a younger QB behind him.

Re: Peyton Manning or RGIII your choice
 

[quote=Lotus;884538]All of the writers quoted in the PFT article speak from a flawed either/or perspective. Their argument is that we should be developing our own QB rather than signing Manning as if only one of those moves is an option.

It seems clear to me that we could do both: add Manning AND add a home-developed QB for the future. If I am correct then all of the arguments quoted by PFT are meaningless.[/quote]

What would the specifics be? Sign Peyton Manning in free agency and draft Ryan Tannehill or Nick Foles in the 2nd round of the draft and develop whichever one we pick? This way, the Redskins keep their picks instead of trading up for RG3.

The other option would be to let Peyton Manning be, sign a veteran free agent QB to take over for Grossman or even keep Rex, and then use whatever ammunition we have to trade up and select RG3 2nd overall.


I like the second option the best. The only thing is maybe sacrificing high draft choices in the move to get RG3. But unlike Manning, RG3 has played football in the past year, is 14 years younger than Manning, and has his best years ahead of him. Peyton Manning on the other hand while still capable of playing at a high enough level, has been inactive since the 2010 playoffs, has had surgery on his neck, and although he's been cleared by doctors to play, is only a short term solution at QB, and is in the twilight of his career.

That said, RG3 is the better option than Manning.

Re: Peyton Manning or RGIII your choice
 

[quote=Schneed10;884532]I have to say this thread has turned into the best discussion we've had on this board for quite a while. Lots of good points being tossed around.

I just think the merits of either move should be measured not just on the likelihood that we'll win a superbowl, but also (and perhaps moreso) on the likelihood that we'll set our team back YEARS if we miss.

With Manning, all he costs is cap room. So if he sucks (yeah, right) or isn't right due to injury (possibly), you take a one-year dead cap hit - which won't be that bad given his stated intention to make a palatable deal. Otherwise, it's no harm no foul. You move on to finding your next QB - but by then the team will have the 6th overall pick this year, plus depth from other picks. The cap room Manning takes up comes with an opportunity cost, it represents players we can't sign in free agency. But that assumes our cap may approach the limit, which doesn't make sense given that we're currently something like $35 - $45 million UNDER the cap. And if we're thinking of shopping so much that we might approach that limit with Manning this year, then we're back to taking the wrong approach to free agency - the Cerrato approach. We're not going to do that.

With Griffin, you give up several picks. If he doesn't pan out you've lost significant young depth due to the lost picks. That's depth this team still needs bad. Missing out on that depth completely stalls this team's development in my mind. The lower cap number Griffin represents really isn't a factor either - as stated, we're so far under the cap it almost doesn't matter.

What people are failing to realize here is that with Manning, you KNOW you still need to find the QB of the future. With Griffin, it sure wouldn't make sense to shop for another QB until you realize he's a failure. By the time Griffin reaches failure status, you're scrambling. Manning gives you the benefit of taking your time over the course of three years to find his successor. You're not stuck reaching for someone.

So those arguments all center around the downside risk which is key to the discussion. As for the upside, if you don't think Peyton Manning gives you the upside to make deep playoff runs over the next three years, I can't help you. You're a lost soul.[/quote]


/thread


Best post in this thread no doubt.

Re: Peyton Manning or RGIII your choice
 

Yup, S10 nails it.

As for the bickering here

[IMG]http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/085/028/PLCVBJX4TBPYBVAHCXJS74J2OB7B4HVP.jpeg?1318992465[/IMG]

Let's end it ok

Re: Peyton Manning or RGIII your choice
 

I think Schneed made me change my mind. the huge BUT is Peyton healthy enough to play. If he comes in and is injuried, then another waste of a year not developing a QB. I think you get Manning with the steadfast intention of still drafting a QB in the 2nd or 3rd this year.

Also Schneed, change RG3 out with Luck, same argument? Im thinking now Luck is the much better, more prepare QB prospect and I would go with Luck over Manning. On the fence now with RG3.

Re: Peyton Manning or RGIII your choice
 

[quote=Chico23231;884561]I think Schneed made me change my mind. the huge BUT is Peyton healthy enough to play. [B]If he comes in and is injuried, then another waste of a year not developing a QB. [/B]I think you get Manning with the steadfast intention of still drafting a QB in the 2nd or 3rd this year.

Also Schneed, change RG3 out with Luck, same argument? Im thinking now Luck is the much better, more prepare QB prospect and I would go with Luck over Manning. On the fence now with RG3.[/quote]

Not necessarily, if you draft a guy like Tannehill who you wouldn't expect to play in year 1 anyway, you would still need a veteran who can play now.

Re: Peyton Manning or RGIII your choice
 

[quote=Schneed10;884532]I have to say this thread has turned into the best discussion we've had on this board for quite a while. Lots of good points being tossed around.

I just think the merits of either move should be measured not just on the likelihood that we'll win a superbowl, but also (and perhaps moreso) on the likelihood that we'll set our team back YEARS if we miss.

With Manning, all he costs is cap room. So if he sucks (yeah, right) or isn't right due to injury (possibly), you take a one-year dead cap hit - which won't be that bad given his stated intention to make a palatable deal. Otherwise, it's no harm no foul. You move on to finding your next QB - but by then the team will have the 6th overall pick this year, plus depth from other picks. The cap room Manning takes up comes with an opportunity cost, it represents players we can't sign in free agency. But that assumes our cap may approach the limit, which doesn't make sense given that we're currently something like $35 - $45 million UNDER the cap. And if we're thinking of shopping so much that we might approach that limit with Manning this year, then we're back to taking the wrong approach to free agency - the Cerrato approach. We're not going to do that.

With Griffin, you give up several picks. If he doesn't pan out you've lost significant young depth due to the lost picks. That's depth this team still needs bad. Missing out on that depth completely stalls this team's development in my mind. The lower cap number Griffin represents really isn't a factor either - as stated, we're so far under the cap it almost doesn't matter.

What people are failing to realize here is that with Manning, you KNOW you still need to find the QB of the future. With Griffin, it sure wouldn't make sense to shop for another QB until you realize he's a failure. By the time Griffin reaches failure status, you're scrambling. Manning gives you the benefit of taking your time over the course of three years to find his successor. You're not stuck reaching for someone.

So those arguments all center around the downside risk which is key to the discussion. As for the upside, if you don't think Peyton Manning gives you the upside to make deep playoff runs over the next three years, I can't help you. You're a lost soul.[/quote]

Very much agree.

Re: Peyton Manning or RGIII your choice
 

Yeah Shneed's post was a very helpful factor in me re-updating my decision.

I would have to add a few counter points to his post.

- We don't know if Manning will ever throw like an NFL QB ever again, so that right there should give the edge to RG3.

- We don't know if Manning and Shanahan will clash heads in terms of how the offense should be run. RG3 being a well spoken rookie I know won't be telling the coaches how to run their offense.

-Manning (pretty similar to the post above) is going to change this growing continuity of the offense. He's been trained an accustomed to staying in the pocket, throwing a lot, and doing a no huddle. Not a lot of bootlegs, rollouts, more of a running based type of offense.

Re: Peyton Manning or RGIII your choice
 

[quote=CultBrennan59;884566]Yeah Shneed's post was a very helpful factor in me re-updating my decision.

I would have to add a few counter points to his post.

[B]- We don't know if Manning will ever throw like an NFL QB ever again, so that right there should give the edge to RG3.

- We don't know if Manning and Shanahan will clash heads in terms of how the offense should be run. RG3 being a well spoken rookie I know won't be telling the coaches how to run their offense.[/B]

-Manning (pretty similar to the post above) is going to change this growing continuity of the offense. He's been trained an accustomed to staying in the pocket, throwing a lot, and doing a no huddle. Not a lot of bootlegs, rollouts, more of a running based type of offense.[/quote]

I think if both of these things happen, then our entire FO needs to be fired. If Manning is not able to throw at NFL speed before he is signed, then we have morons running our team. Also if our genius coach cant make one of the best QBs in the past ten years work, then he needs to be fired.

Re: Peyton Manning or RGIII your choice
 

Even if Manning is let go by the Colts I dont see him coming to DC because I dont think he will see this a very good situation as this team has 0 playmakers. I would expect him to go somewhere with more weapons that is closer to winning now (maybe like AZ).

To answer the question though, if Manning is healthy than there is no reason to look any further. Signing Manning is risk free while giving up picks for a QB whose style just doesnt win in the NFL is loaded with risk. Manning is the pick for sure.

Re: Peyton Manning or RGIII your choice
 

[quote=Chico23231;884561]I think Schneed made me change my mind. the huge BUT is Peyton healthy enough to play. If he comes in and is injuried, then another waste of a year not developing a QB. I think you get Manning with the steadfast intention of still drafting a QB in the 2nd or 3rd this year.

Also Schneed, change RG3 out with Luck, same argument? Im thinking now Luck is the much better, more prepare QB prospect and I would go with Luck over Manning. On the fence now with RG3.[/quote]

Depending on what it takes to move up for Luck, I'd be willing to trade up for him. If Polian was still the GM for the Colts it'd probably would have been easier to make that deal. Now? I know it's still being discussed but the reality is that a trade to #1 is not likely.

My opinion is that the gap between Luck and the 2nd best QB in this draft (which most would say is RG3) is significantly great than that of say RG3 and Ryan Tannehill. Again, that's just my opinion. But that's one big reason why I wouldn't trade up for RG3.

Re: Peyton Manning or RGIII your choice
 

I think a lot of us in favour of PM have been trying to say exactly what Schneed has said throughout this thread. Me for one.

PM won't cost us anything other then money and a roster spot.
We'll still have to draft a QB.

The team can sign PM and still have all of March and April to see if his swelling in his spine goes down enough for him to get his feeling back. Draft a QB anyway and possibly two QB's and let them start learning the system. "IF" PM is not ready we start one of the Rookies. "IF" Pm is ready then we play PM and let the Rookie QBs learn while watching him. It's a no lose situation. Plus if the team decides PM is not ever going to play then hopefully there is a clause in place for PM to be cut or retire.

Then if the Rookies are not working out we still have been able to build up the team more and next year we can go all in for one of the top QB's. By then hopefully we won't need to go all in but if we do the team will have a full compliment of decent players on Offense which will make the QB's job much easier.

Re: Peyton Manning or RGIII your choice
 

[quote=Schneed10;884532]I have to say this thread has turned into the best discussion we've had on this board for quite a while. Lots of good points being tossed around.

I just think the merits of either move should be measured not just on the likelihood that we'll win a superbowl, but also (and perhaps moreso) on the likelihood that we'll set our team back YEARS if we miss.

With Manning, all he costs is cap room. So if he sucks (yeah, right) or isn't right due to injury (possibly), you take a one-year dead cap hit - which won't be that bad given his stated intention to make a palatable deal. Otherwise, it's no harm no foul. You move on to finding your next QB - but by then the team will have the 6th overall pick this year, plus depth from other picks. The cap room Manning takes up comes with an opportunity cost, it represents players we can't sign in free agency. But that assumes our cap may approach the limit, which doesn't make sense given that we're currently something like $35 - $45 million UNDER the cap. And if we're thinking of shopping so much that we might approach that limit with Manning this year, then we're back to taking the wrong approach to free agency - the Cerrato approach. We're not going to do that.

With Griffin, you give up several picks. If he doesn't pan out you've lost significant young depth due to the lost picks. That's depth this team still needs bad. Missing out on that depth completely stalls this team's development in my mind. The lower cap number Griffin represents really isn't a factor either - as stated, we're so far under the cap it almost doesn't matter.

What people are failing to realize here is that with Manning, you KNOW you still need to find the QB of the future. With Griffin, it sure wouldn't make sense to shop for another QB until you realize he's a failure. By the time Griffin reaches failure status, you're scrambling. Manning gives you the benefit of taking your time over the course of three years to find his successor. You're not stuck reaching for someone.

So those arguments all center around the downside risk which is key to the discussion. As for the upside, if you don't think Peyton Manning gives you the upside to make deep playoff runs over the next three years, I can't help you. You're a lost soul.[/quote]

If I were a religious man, I would literally say a prayer that the Redskins FO isn't deciding to not worry about winning Super Bowls and is instead so terrified of making a mistake that they base decisions on that. Fortune favors the bold.

If you make good draft choices, they tend to work out. Bad luck can happen no matter what position you draft. Somehow people think they can talk about this as if Griffin comes with some curse attached which makes it unlikely he'll work out, while the picks spent elsewhere start off halfway to Canton.

And we "know" virtually nothing about what to expect from Manning. He isn't able to throw the ball effectively right now, and he needs nerve regeneration to happen before he does. That [I]probably[/I] will happen, but no one knows when. Nor does anyone know how the year off will affect him. Or a change of scenery. Or the psychology of his injuries. What we do know is that his stats have already shown a downward trend thru his 30s and now we're talking about signing him for his age 36 and beyond years. People are assuming way too much about him for starters.

And RG3 is a full 14 years younger. The decision should really be made on him alone. If the team believes he is going to be a great QB, then they should do what it takes to get him. Peyton Manning shouldn't even enter into that decision. He should be considered only if the decision on Griffin is made in the negative.

Re: Peyton Manning or RGIII your choice
 

Funny cause I'm beginning to think the Colts possibly take RGIII instead based off of maybe what the new OC is going to want to do and what his scheme calls for. RGIII is definitely more mobile then Luck.

Re: Peyton Manning or RGIII your choice
 

[quote=biffle;884584]If I were a religious man, I would literally say a prayer that the Redskins FO isn't deciding to not worry about winning Super Bowls and is instead so terrified of making a mistake that they base decisions on that. Fortune favors the bold.

If you make good draft choices, they tend to work out. Bad luck can happen no matter what position you draft. Somehow people think they can talk about this as if Griffin comes with some curse attached which makes it unlikely he'll work out, while the picks spent elsewhere start off halfway to Canton.

And we "know" virtually nothing about what to expect from Manning. He isn't able to throw the ball effectively right now, and he needs nerve regeneration to happen before he does. That [I]probably[/I] will happen, but no one knows when. Nor does anyone know how the year off will affect him. Or a change of scenery. Or the psychology of his injuries. What we do know is that his stats have already shown a downward trend thru his 30s and now we're talking about signing him for his age 36 and beyond years. People are assuming way too much about him for starters.

And RG3 is a full 14 years younger. The decision should really be made on him alone. If the team believes he is going to be a great QB, then they should do what it takes to get him. Peyton Manning shouldn't even enter into that decision. He should be considered only if the decision on Griffin is made in the negative.[/quote]

Nothing wrong with taking risks, as long as they're calculated. The odds just don't stack up in Griffin's favor.

Fine line between bravery and stupidity.

Re: Peyton Manning or RGIII your choice
 

[quote=Chico23231;884561]I think Schneed made me change my mind. the huge BUT is Peyton healthy enough to play. If he comes in and is injuried, then another waste of a year not developing a QB. I think you get Manning with the steadfast intention of still drafting a QB in the 2nd or 3rd this year.

Also Schneed, change RG3 out with Luck, same argument? Im thinking now Luck is the much better, more prepare QB prospect and I would go with Luck over Manning. On the fence now with RG3.[/quote]

Trading up for Luck, I could get behind that. I view him as much more likely to "succeed" than Griffin.

Again, to me success at the QB position, on a player taken this high in the draft, does not equal a career like Carson Palmer's. If I'm going to trade up, the only way I do it is if I genuinely feel I've got a John Elway on my hands.

Re: Peyton Manning or RGIII your choice
 

[quote=Chico23231;884333]Can you deliver that in a Haiku?[/quote]

He has earned billions
with overnight success and
he's the catalyst

Re: Peyton Manning or RGIII your choice
 

[quote=biffle;884584]And RG3 is a full 14 years younger. The decision should really be made on him alone. If the team believes he is going to be a great QB, then they should do what it takes to get him. Peyton Manning shouldn't even enter into that decision. He should be considered only if the decision on Griffin is made in the negative.[/quote]

And to this point, this line of thinking could not possibly be more shortsighted. You cannot make a QB decision like this in a vacuum. The fact of the matter is that you're not just talking about Griffin vs Manning, as someone else pointed out way earlier in this thread, you're talking about:

Manning + retaining 6 overall + retaining whatever other picks it would take to trade up for Griffin + the ability to spend 3 years finding a QB of the future

vs

Griffin

Again, I'm leaving cap room out of the equation because we're nowhere near the limit. It's not even a constraint for the Redskins.

If you ignore the downstream impact of making each move then you're not really managing the team, it's more of a fantasy football approach.

Re: Peyton Manning or RGIII your choice
 

[quote=SBXVII;884586]Funny cause I'm beginning to think the Colts possibly take RGIII instead based off of maybe what the new OC is going to want to do and what his scheme calls for. RGIII is definitely more mobile then Luck.[/quote]

Well it's going to be interesting to see how Irsay treats Pagano, Grigson, and Arians (particularly the first two) but he's been pretty candid about wanting to "take back his team" so I don't know how much their opinions will matter at the end of the day

Re: Peyton Manning or RGIII your choice
 

[quote=SmootSmack;884590]He has earned billions
with overnight success and
he's the catalyst[/quote]

lol nice.


Can anyone imagine the Colts taking RG3 over Luck? Heads explode and the Rams probably get that Hershal Walker-like deal.

Re: Peyton Manning or RGIII your choice
 

[quote=Schneed10;884591]Nothing wrong with taking risks, as long as they're calculated. The odds just don't stack up in Griffin's favor.

Fine line between bravery and stupidity.
[/quote]

I really can't think of a top QB who came into the draft with anything close to Griffin's character, work ethic and production who didn't work out. But again, people apparently want to cling to this notion that all QBs in the draft come out as some kind of dice roll, so I guess these are the "odds" we are supposed to make all our decisions by.


[quote=Schneed10;884591]And to this point, this line of thinking could not possibly be more shortsighted. You cannot make a QB decision like this in a vacuum. [/quote]

Frankly, yes you can. There is no single facet that comes anywhere close to predicting a team's success than the quality of their QB. In most divisions, you can rank the QBs and then go to the standings and find that you just ranked where they finished the season. If you can find a franchise QB for the next decade plus, you do it. To bypass it to draft a RT and MLB (to use the example of earlier) while farting around with the twilight of Peyton Manning's career would be the epitome of shortsightedness.

[quote=Schneed10;884591]Again, I'm leaving cap room out of the equation because we're nowhere near the limit. It's not even a constraint for the Redskins.
[/quote]

And again, that is just hogwash. There are always ways to spend your cap dollars. Just because that disputes your argument doesn't mean you can wish it away.