Re: What happens with Kyle Smith?
 

[quote=SkinzWin;1275064]How about this then?

Cooley on Kyle Smith via @SheehanPodcast: “Ron wanted nothing to do with anyone that shook hands with Bruce Allen in that building, they are all gone....[B]Bruce Allen culture, See ya![/B]”[/quote]

When phrased that way I'm all for any move Ron makes.

What happens with Kyle Smith?
 

Kyle Smith may stay this year but eventually (or sooner) will be offered a higher job or more money else where.

Rivera doesn’t care about whether a coach or scout or executive shook hands with Bruce Allen’s. What he’s absolutely worried about is someone who is a SPY or DOUBLE AGENT beholden in some way to DAN SNYDER. Snyder’s terrible personnel decisions have consistently destroyed any chance for this team to do well. Even with good or outstanding HC like Gibbs or Shannihan they couldn’t overcome Snyder’s piss poor draft and FA decisions -all made through his surrogate GM -whether Allen or Cerrato. Yes, occasionally the team did draft very good players like our DL. But drafting the first round is pretty easy because they’re ALL the very top players in college.

It will be sad to see Kyle Smith go, when it eventually happens. But I believe Rivera is worried about Snyder trying to worm his way back into the personnel decision-making circle. Especially on the sly. Better to be over-cautious then let Danny back into the decision-loop. The Haskins choice, which may go down as the BIGGEST DRAFT BUST of ALL TIME, is just another in the very, very long list of terrible draft picks or FA busts by Snyder.


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Re: What happens with Kyle Smith?
 

[QUOTE=SkinzWin;1275064]How about this then?



Cooley on Kyle Smith via @SheehanPodcast: “Ron wanted nothing to do with anyone that shook hands with Bruce Allen in that building, they are all gone....Bruce Allen culture, See ya!”[/QUOTE]Well, in terms of sources Cooley is 100 times better than Russell or LaCanfora, and notice that Cooley's actually gives a reason as opposed to simply making a baseless statement based on speculation.

And Warthog, your speculation about DS moles is valid too. I think Ron is going to bring in people that have zero allegiance outside of the team and potentially to Ron.

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Re: What happens with Kyle Smith?
 

[quote=SkinzWin;1275064]How about this then?

Cooley on Kyle Smith via @SheehanPodcast: “Ron wanted nothing to do with anyone that shook hands with Bruce Allen in that building, they are all gone....Bruce Allen culture, See ya!”[/quote]

Hard to disagree with that.

My thing is, Kyle Smith and the scouts are the ones who set the board for this year's draft. Hence why most scouting personnel changes are done after the draft. If you're doing it now, does it upset the draft board? What about all the work they put in?

Re: What happens with Kyle Smith?
 

[quote=mooby;1275091]Hard to disagree with that.

My thing is, Kyle Smith and the scouts are the ones who set the board for this year's draft. Hence why most scouting personnel changes are done after the draft. If you're doing it now, does it upset the draft board? What about all the work they put in?[/quote]

I’m assuming the new hires have their own boards and have been actively scouting. I’d also assume K. Smith’s board is deemed property of the organization, and stays with the team.

So if they want to go over his list I’m sure they can while still having their own.

Re: What happens with Kyle Smith?
 

[QUOTE=CRedskinsRule;1275083]Well, in terms of sources Cooley is 100 times better than Russell or LaCanfora, and notice that Cooley's actually gives a reason as opposed to simply making a baseless statement based on speculation.

And Warthog, your speculation about DS moles is valid too. I think Ron is going to bring in people that have zero allegiance outside of the team and potentially to Ron.

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]


I think Cooley is an outstanding source and analyst.

Rivera wants people who are loyal to HIM. He’s right, because if the team continues to keep winning, Snyder will undoubtedly try to get back into the personnel decision-making process if he can. Dan Snyder can’t do anything publicly to get into micromanaging the team like he used to. But offering money, on the side, could get Dan Snyder back into the process.

Maybe we’ll be lucky and the NFL owners may force Snyder to sell. We’ll see. I’m starting to get more pessimistic of the chances that the other NFL owners will force Snyder to sell. It really depends on the other accusers and what they charge Snyder with.


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Re: What happens with Kyle Smith?
 

[quote=Warthog;1275118]I think Cooley is an outstanding source and analyst.

Rivera wants people who are loyal to HIM. He’s right, because if the team continues to keep winning, Snyder will undoubtedly try to get back into the personnel decision-making process if he can. Dan Snyder can’t do anything publicly to get into micromanaging the team like he used to. But offering money, on the side, could get Dan Snyder back into the process.

Maybe we’ll be lucky and the NFL owners may force Snyder to sell. We’ll see. I’m starting to get more pessimistic of the chances that the other NFL owners will force Snyder to sell. It really depends on the other accusers and what they charge Snyder with.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[/quote]

Are you saying that if the team continues on a winning trajectory that Dan Snyder will eventually bribe someone to "get back into the personnel decision-making process?"

I don't even know what you mean by that...

Re: What happens with Kyle Smith?
 

[quote=Chief X_Phackter;1275131]Are you saying that if the team continues on a winning trajectory that Dan Snyder will eventually bribe someone to "get back into the personnel decision-making process?"

I don't even know what you mean by that...[/quote]

This is exactly how I read it too.

Imagine Dan pleading with Ron "listen, I'll double your salary if you'll allow me input into the roster building process. Please!" hahaha

Re: What happens with Kyle Smith?
 

[quote=mooby;1275139]This is exactly how I read it too.

Imagine Dan pleading with Ron "listen, I'll double your salary if you'll allow me input into the roster building process. Please!" hahaha[/quote]

I can see it now. Ron’s stone cold response, “If you want to get back into personnel decisions Dan, try jacking off to a Mel Kiper video from last year’s draft to get your rocks off”. And then turns and walks away.

Re: What happens with Kyle Smith?
 

Per @wfteamtoday

“ The Falcons are hiring Kyle Smith for the same role he had in Washington. Atlanta got a good one.”

Re: What happens with Kyle Smith?
 

Good for him. ATL heading for a dynasty now.

; )

Re: What happens with Kyle Smith?
 

[quote=MTK;1275896]Good for him. ATL heading for a dynasty now.

; )[/quote]

Laugh all you want, watch their draft vs ours, that will tell you. He also took 3 scouts with him.

Re: What happens with Kyle Smith?
 

[quote=SkinzWin;1275895]Per @wfteamtoday

“ The Falcons are hiring Kyle Smith for the same role he had in Washington. Atlanta got a good one.”[/quote]

Wait, not for GM, man what a bogus hire!!!

Re: What happens with Kyle Smith?
 

Idk why we need to diss him on the way out. Is it possible he's good at his job? Yes. Is it possible he wasn't a good fit with Ron? Also yes. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

Good luck to him, and I hope we're not regretting this 3 years from now.

Re: What happens with Kyle Smith?
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;1275899]Laugh all you want, watch their draft vs ours, that will tell you. He also took 3 scouts with him.[/quote]

Maybe or maybe not, but ATL didn't upgrade his position, that says something about all the fuss and commotion on this site. There were several GM/FO jobs that could have netted him a promotion, but at least as far as was publicized, he wasn't a candidate at any of those spots.

Re: What happens with Kyle Smith?
 

And in case people doubt who ran the last 3 drafts, read Ben Standing twitter quotes on this link.

[url]https://sports.yahoo.com/reports-kyle-smith-three-members-183618094.html[/url]

Re: What happens with Kyle Smith?
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1275902]Maybe or maybe not, but ATL didn't upgrade his position, that says something about all the fuss and commotion on this site. There were several GM/FO jobs that could have netted him a promotion, but at least as far as was publicized, he wasn't a candidate at any of those spots.[/quote]

It's fuss and commotion because he was the rare diamond to come out of this coal mine of shit that we've lived in for the last 30 years.

Is it possible he's just too young to be considered for a full GM role? Doesn't mean he won't be one someday.

Re: What happens with Kyle Smith?
 

[quote=mooby;1275904]It's fuss and commotion because he was the rare diamond to come out of this coal mine of shit that we've lived in for the last 30 years.

Is it possible he's just too young to be considered for a full GM role? Doesn't mean he won't be one someday.[/quote]

Well I disagree about the "rarity" of him, because we have fed the league a dozen diamond in the roughs. But, no one in the league is seeing him as GM material so I don't want us promoting someone out of their ability. Mayhew has demonstrated that he can run professional football organizations, and that's what the WFT needs. I don't wish him ill, in fact I hope he succeeds. Just seems like this fanbase wants change but not THAT change.

Re: What happens with Kyle Smith?
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1275906]Well I disagree about the "rarity" of him, because we have fed the league a dozen diamond in the roughs. But, no one in the league is seeing him as GM material so I don't want us promoting someone out of their ability. Mayhew has demonstrated that he can run professional football organizations, and that's what the WFT needs. I don't wish him ill, in fact I hope he succeeds. Just seems like this fanbase wants change but not THAT change.[/quote]

Kyle needs to wash away the stain of Bruce Allen from him. Atlanta will give him that opportunity it seems. I wish him the best.

Re: What happens with Kyle Smith?
 

Everyone that worked under Bruce is now gone. That shouldn't be seen as a bad thing ultimately.

Re: What happens with Kyle Smith?
 

Sad to see Kyle go but these things happen when there's change. Obviously Ron and Kyle did not mesh well but there's nothing wrong with that. Ron had full control from the owner. Since he is accountable to Dan then he has the right to bring in the guys that he will work best with. But we are losing a good one, no doubt about that. Not ready to call Smith a savior but he is good at his job..

Re: What happens with Kyle Smith?
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;1275899]Laugh all you want, watch their draft vs ours, that will tell you. He also took 3 scouts with him.[/quote]

Kyle has hit on some and missed on some. He isn't waving a magic wan.

Re: What happens with Kyle Smith?
 

F*ck Kyle Smith and the bird he flew out on. Go Team!

Re: What happens with Kyle Smith?
 

[quote=skinsfan69;1275916]Kyle has hit on some and missed on some. He isn't waving a magic wan.[/quote]

Everybody hits on some and misses on some. In baseball, getting a hit 3 times out of 10 consistently is considered elite.

Even the best ones in our league still miss. Doesn't mean they aren't good at their jobs. The best ones just hit more than they miss.

Re: What happens with Kyle Smith?
 

[QUOTE=Ruhskins;1275910]Kyle needs to wash away the stain of Bruce Allen from him. Atlanta will give him that opportunity it seems. I wish him the best.[/QUOTE]This

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Re: What happens with Kyle Smith?
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1275906]Well I disagree about the "rarity" of him, because we have fed the league[B] a dozen diamond in the roughs[/B]. But, no one in the league is seeing him as GM material so I don't want us promoting someone out of their ability. Mayhew has demonstrated that he can run professional football organizations, and that's what the WFT needs. I don't wish him ill, in fact I hope he succeeds. Just seems like this fanbase wants change but not THAT change.[/quote]

I meant more in the FO sense. We've had some young coaching talent leave but Kyle Smith is the rare young FO talent to move on.

+1 obviously I'm hoping Mayhew and Hurney work out.

Re: What happens with Kyle Smith?
 

[quote=mooby;1275919]Everybody hits on some and misses on some. In baseball, getting a hit 3 times out of 10 consistently is considered elite.

Even the best ones in our league still miss. Doesn't mean they aren't good at their jobs. The best ones just hit more than they miss.[/quote]

The last 2 drafts by Washington have been the NFL’s best, some of our 4th rounders like Charles and AGG will pan out next year.

Re: What happens with Kyle Smith?
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;1275925]The last 2 drafts by Washington have been the NFL’s best, some of our 4th rounders like Charles and AGG will pan out next year.[/quote]

I like Kyle Smith too, but saying a guy should count as a draft success before they've panned out isn't helping his case.

Re: What happens with Kyle Smith?
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;1275925]The last 2 drafts by Washington have been the NFL’s best, some of our 4th rounders like Charles and AGG will pan out next year.[/quote]

AGG is too slow and can't get off the line. Charles can't stay on the field. Not ready to write off both but what we have seen so far isn't promising.

Re: What happens with Kyle Smith?
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1275906]Well I disagree about the "rarity" of him, because we have fed the league a dozen diamond in the roughs. But, no one in the league is seeing him as GM material so I don't want us promoting someone out of their ability. Mayhew has demonstrated that he can run professional football organizations, and that's what the WFT needs. I don't wish him ill, in fact I hope he succeeds. Just seems like this fanbase wants change but not THAT change.[/quote]

You bring up an interesting point. Is the GM primarily administrator, or talent evaluator? Both. Skilled administrators are not hard to find. Skilled talent evaluators are. Mayhew's record of talent acquisition and evaluation is mediocre, neither great nor horrible. None of us were in the room, so we can't know how much Smith has ultimately been responsible for talent we have, but those who were in the building such as Shanny say he is very, very sharp.

I hate letting Smith walk and bringing in Hurney and Mayhew, but this is not as obvious as say the need to draft a QB and not trade for one. We had about a third of the young guru coaches in the league in our building, but didn't have the sense to keep any. Only time will tell if we made same mistake with Smith, but if Atlanta is stacked with talent in two years, and our drafts look mediocre, we'll know. It is telling that it took Smith less than a week to find a new job.

If we are evaluating Smith fairly, however, we must give him credit for our DL and gems like McLaurin, Gibson, Curl, etc., but also some of the gaping holes at WR, TE, etc. He gets a pass on QB because THE DAN meddled, forcing Haskins on him, as well as the albatross contract of Smith, who while a feel good story has never won anything. We can only wonder where we would be if Smith had been free to not trade for Smith nor draft Haskins, but rather had been allowed to pick the QBs he scouted as being the best. THE DAN'S meddling is just insane, burdens us with $20M+ Smith cap hit after trading our best young corner and a 3rd, plus wastes another 1st on Haskins. Plus if we had kept and resigned Fuller, we would have had an additional comp pick.

We can never know, but I think this hire comes down to two things: (1) Smith wanted to take a more long-term draft oriented approach, and Riviera like all coaches except a few has to be concerned about short-term production to keep his job. Developing a non-top-tier QB over 1-2 years is not how new coaches keep their job. Case study in why GM should be above coach in hierarchy. (2) Given THE DAN'S meddling and overall history of organization, RR wants people who are emphatically loyal to him.

It would have been interesting to see who Smith would have drafted for us at QB this year if given latitude to build the right way, but we'll never know. . .

Re: What happens with Kyle Smith?
 

[quote=mooby;1275919]Everybody hits on some and misses on some. In baseball, getting a hit 3 times out of 10 consistently is considered elite.

Even the best ones in our league still miss. Doesn't mean they aren't good at their jobs. The best ones just hit more than they miss.[/quote]

PFF rates our drafts last 2 years among best in NFL based on rather convoluted metrics that are heavily weighted towards immediate performance/production of players drafted. While these metrics are not gospel, they are a serious attempt to objectively quantify draft success using statistics. The job Smith has done at minimum puts us top-ten in drafting prowess last 2 years, and some would say much higher.

Re: What happens with Kyle Smith?
 

[QUOTE=Scalper;1275953]You bring up an interesting point. Is the GM primarily administrator, or talent evaluator? Both. Skilled administrators are not hard to find. Skilled talent evaluators are. Mayhew's record of talent acquisition and evaluation is mediocre, neither great nor horrible. None of us were in the room, so we can't know how much Smith has ultimately been responsible for talent we have, but those who were in the building such as Shanny say he is very, very sharp.



I hate letting Smith walk and bringing in Hurney and Mayhew, but this is not as obvious as say the need to draft a QB and not trade for one. We had about a third of the young guru coaches in the league in our building, but didn't have the sense to keep any. Only time will tell if we made same mistake with Smith, but if Atlanta is stacked with talent in two years, and our drafts look mediocre, we'll know. It is telling that it took Smith less than a week to find a new job.



If we are evaluating Smith fairly, however, we must give him credit for our DL and gems like McLaurin, Gibson, Curl, etc., but also some of the gaping holes at WR, TE, etc. He gets a pass on QB because THE DAN meddled, forcing Haskins on him, as well as the albatross contract of Smith, who while a feel good story has never won anything. We can only wonder where we would be if Smith had been free to not trade for Smith nor draft Haskins, but rather had been allowed to pick the QBs he scouted as being the best. THE DAN'S meddling is just insane, burdens us with $20M+ Smith cap hit after trading our best young corner and a 3rd, plus wastes another 1st on Haskins. Plus if we had kept and resigned Fuller, we would have had an additional comp pick.



We can never know, but I think this hire comes down to two things: (1) Smith wanted to take a more long-term draft oriented approach, and Riviera like all coaches except a few has to be concerned about short-term production to keep his job. Developing a non-top-tier QB over 1-2 years is not how new coaches keep their job. Case study in why GM should be above coach in hierarchy. (2) Given THE DAN'S meddling and overall history of organization, RR wants people who are emphatically loyal to him.



It would have been interesting to see who Smith would have drafted for us at QB this year if given latitude to build the right way, but we'll never know. . .[/QUOTE]Fairly good points, but I still note Smith was hired for the SAME POSITION not the GM or even asst GM. He can evaluate talent, but maybe he has some traits of his father when it comes to GM. I dunno, but going back to his stance on Haskins, and looking from a manager (RR) perspective, while he was right in that instance I imagine that it also could be seen by Ron as a warning sign if the two disagreed on picks and KS was GM. Would he go to Dan screaming that RR was making a mistake picking player x? Would he tell reporters thay he disagreed when RR didn't listen to his advice?

Just saying. A healthy front office is more than one excellent talent evaluator.

I wish KS nothing but the best, but this wasn't the place for his next step.

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Re: What happens with Kyle Smith?
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1275959]Fairly good points, but I still note Smith was hired for the SAME POSITION not the GM or even asst GM. He can evaluate talent, but maybe he has some traits of his father when it comes to GM. I dunno, but going back to his stance on Haskins, and looking from a manager (RR) perspective, while he was right in that instance I imagine that it also could be seen by Ron as a warning sign if the two disagreed on picks and KS was GM. Would he go to Dan screaming that RR was making a mistake picking player x? Would he tell reporters thay he disagreed when RR didn't listen to his advice?

Just saying. A healthy front office is more than one excellent talent evaluator.

I wish KS nothing but the best, but this wasn't the place for his next step.

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk[/quote]

I agree this wasn't the place, because it still isn't a functional franchise.

Smith was always class act, never trial by media type, let's be fair to him.

Smith was right about Haskins, plain and simple. Worst part is he'll probably clean up his act under Steelers and they'll get a free franchise QB, but cutting him was the right choice.

I truly think Smith wants to do it right and build via draft and no coach stays that course as the end of their contract looms if they have personnel power. Smith is, I think, telling RR here's two QBs we should draft and develop this year, and RR wants to bring in a veteran to compete right away. There is no more fundamental disagreement than divergent QB philosophies. So the guy advocating the sound decision has to go.

I think you are correct that RR is also concerned THE DAN will meddle, especially by year 4 when some FAs weren't working, the honeymoon is over, we are good but not elite. THE DAN will start looking to meddle, and then starts talking to everyone behind RR's back. This is what THE DAN does and always will do. ALWAYS. Anyone who thinks THE DAN has changed or will ever change is a homer. So I don't fault RR for bringing in his own guys who will CERTAINLY tell him when (not if) THE DAN meddles, and anyone who has not been with RR long term would be more loyal to the owner than RR.

Yet I still think we let a guy go who is a better talent evaluator than either guy we hired, by a significant margin. Yet another DAN tax, in essence. We will NEVER win a SB as long as THE DAN owns the team, I rue the day he bought it.

The strategic problem is that our FO is still structured incorrectly, with the coach having power over GM. This is backwards. While the GM and coach must work together, talent acquisition should be fundamentally segregated from coaching the talent, to ensure coaches who often lack objectively don't make bad choices about talent acquisition. RR is a huge upgrade over the clowns past, but will still probably never get us to the promised land. We have to outcompete other FOs that are setup properly, who have truly brilliant GMs rather than retreads, and true franchise QBs. The dysfunction of THE DAN will perpetually prevent such a structure.

Re: What happens with Kyle Smith?
 

The fact Kyle Smith got a job immediately is again telling that he is highly respected around the league

Re: What happens with Kyle Smith?
 

Atlanta definitely needs KS given their salary cap spot. I wonder if they will give him so chance to grow as a GM and salary cap management.

Re: What happens with Kyle Smith?
 

[quote=Chico23231;1275966]The fact Kyle Smith got a job immediately is again telling that he is highly respected around the league[/quote]

I don't think anyone, definitely not me, was saying that KS would not be valued as a talent evaluator. The question is simply whether he could be the GM we need or promoted just to be promoted. I think the league also clearly spoke that they didn't see him ready to take the next step yet.

Re: What happens with Kyle Smith?
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1276002]I don't think anyone, definitely not me, was saying that KS would not be valued as a talent evaluator. The question is simply whether he could be the GM we need or promoted just to be promoted. I think the league also clearly spoke that they didn't see him ready to take the next step yet.[/quote]

And in the end, if it wasn't a good working relationship between him and RR, then he simply had to go.

I'm confident in the current structure, until I have a reason not to be.

Re: What happens with Kyle Smith?
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1276002]I don't think anyone, definitely not me, was saying that KS would not be valued as a talent evaluator. The question is simply whether he could be the GM we need or promoted just to be promoted. I think the league also clearly spoke that they didn't see him ready to take the next step yet.[/quote]

I don't understand why we need to have this discussion about "is Kyle Smith considered GM ready around the league." He's clearly not.

It just reads to me like some people are shitting on Kyle on the way out because some of us are upset about losing a quality talent evaluator. This discussion about losing a GM is stupid, we're losing the only homegrown talent evaluator to come out of Football Team Park in the last 30 years. A guy who up until December was considered a rising star. Now he's garbage because him and Ron clearly had some philosophical difference in how to build the team.

Re: What happens with Kyle Smith?
 

[quote=Chief X_Phackter;1276007]And in the end, if it wasn't a good working relationship between him and RR, then he simply had to go.

I'm confident in the current structure, until I have a reason not to be.[/quote]

I agree with everything, except I'm not truly confident in the current structure given Hurney and Mayhew haven't done anything super confidence-inspiring. A good draft and improvement on last year's record will go a long way to easing my concerns though.

Re: What happens with Kyle Smith?
 

[QUOTE=mooby;1276035]I don't understand why we need to have this discussion about "is Kyle Smith considered GM ready around the league." He's clearly not.



It just reads to me like some people are shitting on Kyle on the way out because some of us are upset about losing a quality talent evaluator. This discussion about losing a GM is stupid, we're losing the only homegrown talent evaluator to come out of Football Team Park in the last 30 years. A guy who up until December was considered a rising star. Now he's garbage because him and Ron clearly had some philosophical difference in how to build the team.[/QUOTE]

He is not garbage, no one is saying that he is. The duscussion about GM is because that was the position that needed to be filled. Once a new GM is hired the staff changes. That isnt a huge shock. KS had put his time in here and I imagine he felt entitled to an interview - RR didn't see it that way. At that point each one had to decide what was best. That ended up being KS leaving. You wish him the best and move on.

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