Re: Start John Beck Madness Thread
 

nothing like Redskin fans when we are winning games. Instead of blasting him for the dallas game, how bout we make the field goal, instead of losing by two, we win by one. Damn, at 3-1 and people still bitch.

Re: Start John Beck Madness Thread
 

If Beck was better he would have beat out Rex in preseason. Repeat and rinse.

Re: Start John Beck Madness Thread
 

[quote=#56fanatic;844680]nothing like Redskin fans when we are winning games. Instead of blasting him for the dallas game, how bout we make the field goal, instead of losing by two, we win by one. Damn, at 3-1 and people still bitch.[/quote]

I agree, anyone can sharpshoot any game and pick out a play that should have been made, its no one play or player that wins or loses a game. I dont think Rex is getting nearly enough credit as I think most overestimate how the O should be playing. Rex is working with a WR corps that is barely average and an O line that is still a work in progress. This team could easily be 0-4 but somehow the O is scoring enough point to win and The D is playing tough. I like that they are finding ways to win.

Re: Start John Beck Madness Thread
 

lets sign David Garrard to start

Re: Start John Beck Madness Thread
 

[quote=#56fanatic;844680]nothing like Redskin fans when we are winning games. Instead of blasting him for the dallas game, how bout we make the field goal, instead of losing by two, we win by one. Damn, at 3-1 and people still bitch.[/quote]

Again, [I]nobody is bitching[/I] but I understand your wanting to be on the side of the majority and ignore the obvious. If we need to kick 5-6 field goals to win a game when the opposing team scores zero touchdowns then Beck deserves a shot IMO.

If you just squeak by the Rams well... Lets wait and see what Shanny does, I would not be surprised to see a change at QB this season.

Re: Start John Beck Madness Thread
 

[quote=#56fanatic;844638]wow...I can't believe you two are arguing back and forth about a QB and team that is 3-1. Skins fans can never be happy without controversy.

To your point about Beck being in the system and knowing it after 1yr 3months. Rex has 3 years in the system and I would bet he has a better handle on it than Beck. The backup QB is the best position in football. He is the savior, the man, that is until the starter goes down and he steps in and shits on himself. Then it is well he is a backup what do you expect. Look, Rex is starting because he is the better of the two. Shanny has had two years of these guys on the roster, watching them practice and watching game film. I think they know who is better and who gives us a better chance to win.

Of the 5 INT's, how many of them should have been caught? 3 or 4 right.. So, if the WR catches the ball, are we even having this discussion. NOPE. So go and watch the games again, Rex isn't playing that bad.[/quote]

Of those 5 ints, which depending on your perspective, could have been several more if the defenders make the catch, I only recognized 2 that are directly attributed to receiver drops, and have nothing to do with ball placement. He also has 2 recorded fumbles on the stat sheet which arguably could have been 3-4. If you subtract the receiver drops from the equation, and add the fumbles, you're still looking at a QB who has thrown 6 TDs to 5-6 turnovers. Ints alone are not the only stat tick to take into account. Is that ratio gleaming with positivity? Hardly.

I know it can be done in this offense, because last year at this point in the season we were #1 in the league in passes over 50 yds (Rex has yet to throw one over 40 this season), and we were 2-2, not a far cry from where we stand today. In the last 3 games Rex has not managed to crack the 78 mark in passer rating, and that's the favorable rating system. I'm not sure how you do the math, but that does not paint the picture of a QB who exudes confidence in a system. I don't believe anyones apprehension with Grossman under center can be considered, in any way, unfounded.

I'm certain Rex will remain at the helm, for now, in order to protect our 1st place tie in the division, but there isn't a lot that the Rex supporters can say that would change his mediocre performance and production. It only seems logical to have a question mark lingering over Grossman, and in the same vein question whether Beck can do better.

Re: Start John Beck Madness Thread
 

[quote=Mattyk;844449]Shame that we're 3-1 sitting here banging our heads against the wall over the starting QB... as usual.[/quote]

Nah...not upset or banging my head....but we should be 4-0.
We lost to a team that could only score field goals against our D.
Rex is like watching a bi-polar train wreck full of turnovers.
Against the Rams, one of the worst teams in the NFL, Rex started good but then slowed down as the game went on and played down to their level. Ugly!
He is so slow to set up on the play action pass. His speed from center, to the fake to the RB with his back to the defense, then turn and throw is molasses-like. His naked bootlegs and rollouts are amateurish at times. Both of the Shanahan's faces during these moments is telling.
Rex was not that much better than Beck in preseason. Beck looked better in certain games. It is not that crazy of an idea to see Beck play if Rex does not improve in the turnovers and red zone.

Re: Start John Beck Madness Thread
 

So I guess by most of ur standards john Beck should go start in Dallas foe romo .... lol I'll stick with Rex like I said

Re: Start John Beck Madness Thread
 

[quote=Meks;844854]So I guess by most of ur standards john Beck should go start in Dallas foe romo .... lol I'll stick with Rex like I said[/quote]

No probably not, maybe Stephen McGee...

Re: Start John Beck Madness Thread
 

[quote=44ever;844696]Again, [I]nobody is bitching[/I] but I understand your wanting to be on the side of the majority and ignore the obvious. If we need to kick 5-6 field goals to win a game when the opposing team scores zero touchdowns then Beck deserves a shot IMO.

If you just squeak by the Rams well... Lets wait and see what Shanny does, I would not be surprised to see a change at QB this season.[/quote]


44 it's because we see what the future holds and with REX we know it's only a matter of time until he goes Sanchez on us and losses a game or 2. Yeah he's done a decent job but the last 2 games have been poor and STL had 2 INTs dropped thank god or we prob lose that game. Rex is what he is but Beck on the other hand has more mobility and more accurate according to some so why not try him?

Re: Start John Beck Madness Thread
 

[quote=Meks;844854]So I guess by most of ur standards john Beck should go start in Dallas foe romo .... lol I'll stick with Rex like I said[/quote]


Tony Romo is 10 times the QB Rex Grossman is bro lets be real

Re: Start John Beck Madness Thread
 

[quote=44ever;844696]Again, [I]nobody is bitching[/I] but I understand your wanting to be on the side of the majority and ignore the obvious. If we need to kick 5-6 field goals to win a game when the opposing team scores zero touchdowns then Beck deserves a shot IMO.

If you just squeak by the Rams well... Lets wait and see what Shanny does, I would not be surprised to see a change at QB this season.[/quote]

Before last weeks game one of the announcers said they went back and reviewed all our red zone plays against Dallas and our WR's where not getting any seperation and Rex had no one to throw to. I guess we could ask for him to force a throw or two but then people would bitch about his ints.

Re: Start John Beck Madness Thread
 

[quote=#56fanatic;844680]nothing like Redskin fans when we are winning games. Instead of blasting him for the dallas game, how bout we make the field goal, instead of losing by two, we win by one. Damn, at 3-1 and people still bitch.[/quote]

Probably has more to do with the way we win, than winning itself. Guess some people will never be satisfied unless we win every game convincingly.

Re: Start John Beck Madness Thread
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;845027]44 it's because we see what the future holds and with REX we know it's only a matter of time until he goes Sanchez on us and losses a game or 2. Yeah he's done a decent job but the last 2 games have been poor and STL had 2 INTs dropped thank god or we prob lose that game. Rex is what he is but Beck on the other hand has more mobility and more accurate according to some so why not try him?[/quote]

According to some of Shanny's latest statements there is some evidence that we may in fact see Beck this season. If Rex can pull it together great! Some here are acting as if all we need to do is bare with Rex until we secure a franchise QB well, its been decades and we have not been able to do so so what makes anyone believe that it will happen soon?

Our time is now, Our window of opportunity is now, we need to know for sure that we have the right man in at QB now. I know we are 3-1 but that has more to do with our defense than anything else. We simply are not putting enough points on the board to compete in the later stages of the season.
(The way Rex is playing at this point)

His TD to INT/Fumble ratio is scary to say the least. I don't even want to get into his mobility issues...

I'll say it again, count on Beck playing this season.

Re: Start John Beck Madness Thread
 

I couldn't be happier at 3-1 and have no complaints, the Q was would it be bad to start Beck? I say no it wouldn't

Re: Start John Beck Madness Thread
 

If you have no problems with 3-1 why change? To me if you are content with where we are now why change what got us there?

Re: Start John Beck Madness Thread
 

[quote=44ever;845034]According to some of Shanny's latest statements there is some evidence that we may in fact see Beck this season. If Rex can pull it together great! Some here are acting as if all we need to do is bare with Rex until we secure a franchise QB well, its been decades and we have not been able to do so so what makes anyone believe that it will happen soon?

Our time is now, Our window of opportunity is now, we need to know for sure that we have the right man in at QB now. I know we are 3-1 but that has more to do with our defense than anything else. We simply are not putting enough points on the board to compete in the later stages of the season.
(The way Rex is playing at this point)

His TD to INT/Fumble ratio is scary to say the least. I don't even want to get into his mobility issues...

I'll say it again, count on Beck playing this season.[/quote]

[url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/football-insider/post/redskins-bye-week-a-look-at-the-offense/2011/10/04/gIQAcyZZML_blog.html]Redskins bye week: A look at the offense - The Insider - The Washington Post[/url]

Re: Start John Beck Madness Thread
 

Grossman and Beck aren't the same type of player but, they give you the same type of production. It's a wash.

Re: Start John Beck Madness Thread
 

If Beck isn't going to start then he can crew Dans new yacht.

Re: Start John Beck Madness Thread
 

[quote=firstdown;845030]Before last weeks game one of the announcers said they went back and reviewed all our red zone plays against Dallas and our WR's where not getting any seperation and Rex had no one to throw to. I guess we could ask for him to force a throw or two but then people would bitch about his ints.[/quote]

If your contention is that receivers aren't finding separation, therefore not giving Rex a open target to throw to, wouldn't you then feel more comfortable with a more athletic QB who can improvise with his legs?

Re: Start John Beck Madness Thread
 

[quote=fanarchist;845091]If your contention is that receivers aren't finding separation, therefore not giving Rex a open target to throw to, wouldn't you then feel more comfortable with a more athletic QB who can improvise with his legs?[/quote]

Great point!

Re: Start John Beck Madness Thread
 

[quote=fanarchist;845091]If your contention is that receivers aren't finding separation, therefore not giving Rex a open target to throw to, wouldn't you then feel more comfortable with a more athletic QB who can improvise with his legs?[/quote]

We're not talking about Michael Vick here. John Beck is slightly more mobile than Grossman. He's not a dual threat though.

Re: Start John Beck Madness Thread
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;845029]Tony Romo is 10 times the QB Rex Grossman is bro lets be real[/quote]

so his stats this year, and how he played against us, as opposed to how Rex played against them, which isone of most ppls points against Rex.. reflect ur statement accurately?

like I said, by most Beck arguments, he should be getting the.nod over romo too...

not my opinion, but those.Beck fans seem to be going by this.logic....

lol, until Rex bombs a fee times... leave him alone.

Re: Start John Beck Madness Thread
 

[quote=fanarchist;845091]If your contention is that receivers aren't finding separation, therefore not giving Rex a open target to throw to, wouldn't you then feel more comfortable with a more athletic QB who can improvise with his legs?[/quote]

So far Beck has not shown me he is the man to make the plays. In 5 yrs he has 5 starts with 1 td 3 ints and he looked like shit in preseason when he was trying to become the starter. Not sure Rex is that much better but he has been to a SB and has experience.

Re: Start John Beck Madness Thread
 

[quote=mooby;845096]We're not talking about Michael Vick here. John Beck is slightly more mobile than Grossman. He's not a dual threat though.[/quote]

Seriously. John Beck is an average mobile QB in today's NFL. If that.

Re: Start John Beck Madness Thread
 

[quote=mooby;845096]We're not talking about Michael Vick here. John Beck is slightly more mobile than Grossman. He's not a dual threat though.[/quote]

I in no way eluded to him being Vick-like, or made a remotely similar comparison. It's quite literal really. "More athletic", which he is. How slender, or vast the margin is clearly open to interpretation. But obviously even a detractor is willing to admit he's "more mobile", which I'd say is a check in the box for Beck.

Re: Start John Beck Madness Thread
 

[quote=fanarchist;845101]I in no way eluded to him being Vick-like, or made a remotely similar comparison. It's quite literal really. "More athletic", which he is. How slender, or vast the margin is clearly open to interpretation. But obviously even a detractor is willing to admit he's "more mobile", which I'd say is a check in the box for Beck.[/quote]

I agreed with you earlier but I was thinking more along the lines of opening up more throwing lanes. I also agree Grossman does not have to be Vick like to accomplish that.

A QB with even average mobility can make a 2D passing game so much more simply by angle of attack. So I think your point on mobility is valid in many ways.

Re: Start John Beck Madness Thread
 

Reading all this crap about changing QB's, you'd think we were 1-3. People are ridiculous, and Redskins fans just cant be happy. You all are pointing to the last quarter of the Dallas game, and the Rams game. Armstrong being out is not allowing us to stretch the field, which in turn isn't freeing up some of those middle routes we were use to seeing the first couple of games. that is one reason the passing game has taken a bit of a hit the last two games.

INT's - how many has he thrown 5?? How many of those are off recievers hands that should have been caught?? 3 or 4. ONly really bad one I can remember was the one vs the Rams. Two fumbles, one was at the end of the game where he was trying to make a play running outside the pocket and got hit from behind. That happes a TON in the NFL, to any QB and most QB;s that get caught from behind.

Its ridiculous to have these discussions. Two wins are related to Rex being able to make big plays and win the games. Giants and Cardinals. No one is talking about that. Everyone is bitching and moaning because of what Rex's reputation is and honestly its a bit overplayed. Rex has been playing pretty good when you get down to it. Taking what he is given, not forcing too many balls (as he has in the past), checking down and throwing balls away.

WE ARE 3-1 FOR F*CK SAKE. how bout we act like it

Re: Start John Beck Madness Thread
 

[quote=#56fanatic;845184]Reading all this crap about changing QB's, you'd think we were 1-3. People are ridiculous, and Redskins fans just cant be happy. You all are pointing to the last quarter of the Dallas game, and the Rams game. Armstrong being out is not allowing us to stretch the field, which in turn isn't freeing up some of those middle routes we were use to seeing the first couple of games. that is one reason the passing game has taken a bit of a hit the last two games.

INT's - how many has he thrown 5?? How many of those are off recievers hands that should have been caught?? 3 or 4. ONly really bad one I can remember was the one vs the Rams. Two fumbles, one was at the end of the game where he was trying to make a play running outside the pocket and got hit from behind. That happes a TON in the NFL, to any QB and most QB;s that get caught from behind.

Its ridiculous to have these discussions. Two wins are related to Rex being able to make big plays and win the games. Giants and Cardinals. No one is talking about that. Everyone is bitching and moaning because of what Rex's reputation is and honestly its a bit overplayed. Rex has been playing pretty good when you get down to it. Taking what he is given, not forcing too many balls (as he has in the past), checking down and throwing balls away.

WE ARE 3-1 FOR F*CK SAKE. how bout we act like it[/quote]

Its so rare that the Skins are 3-1 and actually looking good that Skins fans dont know how to act.

Re: Start John Beck Madness Thread
 

[quote=Longtimefan;845048][url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/football-insider/post/redskins-bye-week-a-look-at-the-offense/2011/10/04/gIQAcyZZML_blog.html]Redskins bye week: A look at the offense - The Insider - The Washington Post[/url][/quote]


[url=http://bleacherreport.com/articles/785691-skins-qb-rex-grossm-has-toughest-job-in-washington-can-he-handle-the-pressure]Skins QB Rex Grossman: Can He Handle the Toughest Job in Washington? | Bleacher Report[/url]

Re: Start John Beck Madness Thread
 

[quote=hooskins;845046]If you have no problems with 3-1 why change? To me if you are content with where we are now why change what got us there?[/quote]

Because the coaching staff is aiming for optimal performance now to avoid losses in the future?

I think its fair to say that if the QB made a few more plays in the Cowboys game we could have won?

Well what if Beck could provide those few more plays? (Mind you I'm not saying that I know he can, just what if)

Re: Start John Beck Madness Thread
 

What if my parents didn't meet? What if the perfect amount of cosmic material was not present to facilitate the Big Bang?

You can go on and on with "what ifs" and you will never reach any logical conclusion. In the end you make the best decision with what you have got, try to be as proactive as you can but if you are successful there isn't a need for change.

Re: Start John Beck Madness Thread
 

[quote=#56fanatic;845184]Reading all this crap about changing QB's, you'd think we were 1-3. People are ridiculous, and Redskins fans just cant be happy. You all are pointing to the last quarter of the Dallas game, and the Rams game. Armstrong being out is not allowing us to stretch the field, which in turn isn't freeing up some of those middle routes we were use to seeing the first couple of games. that is one reason the passing game has taken a bit of a hit the last two games.

INT's - how many has he thrown 5?? How many of those are off recievers hands that should have been caught?? 3 or 4. ONly really bad one I can remember was the one vs the Rams. Two fumbles, one was at the end of the game where he was trying to make a play running outside the pocket and got hit from behind. That happes a TON in the NFL, to any QB and most QB;s that get caught from behind.

Its ridiculous to have these discussions. Two wins are related to Rex being able to make big plays and win the games. Giants and Cardinals. No one is talking about that. Everyone is bitching and moaning because of what Rex's reputation is and honestly its a bit overplayed. Rex has been playing pretty good when you get down to it. Taking what he is given, not forcing too many balls (as he has in the past), checking down and throwing balls away.

WE ARE 3-1 FOR F*CK SAKE. how bout we act like it[/quote]

Earlier in this thread you said it was 2-3 ints that could not be attributed to Rex. Now it seems to be 3-4. Pretty soon Rex won't be held accountable for any of his miscues on the field.

No true Redskins fan is discouraged with a 3-1 start. Especially when you consider that a couple of those wins could have easily gone in the other direction. But just because we're 3-1 does not mean we should simply stand pat, rest on our laurels, and delude ourselves into believing that everything is coming up roses in the mystical land of burgundy and gold. Any team, regardless of record, is always looking to repair, or replace areas where cogs in the machine are poorly functioning. QB is one of those cogs.

As I said before, Grossman has yet to throw a completion for over 40 yds this season. That includes the first 2 games with AA present. Last season we were #1 in the NFL in passes over 50. If you're going to employ a run first attack, you should atleast be of the mindset that in pounding the rock, and pulling LBs and safeties into the box, your main objective in the passing game is to exploit the lack of coverage downfield. And if Rex were throwing ints in those circumstances where he's attempting to stretch the field vertically I don't think I'd be as harsh of a critic, because in all reality the worst that could happen is the DB runs the int back for a TD, and that is pretty rare once you've already effected the the amount of field, and distance he has to cover in order to find the endzone. In the pro catagory, your receiver catches the pass, which rapidly impacts the field position, and drastically improves your scoring opportunities. Or your receiver catches the pass, shakes his coverage, and scores. Or you draw a flag, holding, or pass interference. Either option extends the drive. Or you throw an incompletion and live to play another down.

I've already addressed, in previous posts in this thread and others, the deficiencies I see in Rex's game so I don't feel the need to rehash all of that. I'll just say that everything you've stated has already been covered from a diametric view.

We're not classless fans who are never satisfied. We're a collective group of realists who have the foresight to recognize when something is amiss. You can't dismiss critical thought from a progessive discussion just because you don't like a schism.

Re: Start John Beck Madness Thread
 

[quote=hooskins;845232]What if my parents didn't meet? What if the perfect amount of cosmic material was not present to facilitate the Big Bang?

You can go on and on with "what ifs" and you will never reach any logical conclusion. In the end you make the best decision with what you have got, try to be as proactive as you can but if you are successful there isn't a need for change.[/quote]

This is not one of those hypothetical past "what if" scenarios that the coaching staff has no way of proving or impacting. The "what if", in this case, can easily be remedied if you simply play the guy.

Re: Start John Beck Madness Thread
 

Sure, but like I said no need to make a change if you achieving your goal of winnings games.

You don't just do something because you are unsure of the possible outcome. What if I went up to my boss and demanded a raise or else? Well I am not going to do that right now because I am getting a fair-market value and secure position in a tough economic climate. There would be no need for me to take such a "what if" action. Same applies in this situation. You can "what if" all you want, but in the end, change is not needed nor wanted by the owner, coach or players (the only ones that matter in this decision if I may add). All we do is win win win!

Re: Start John Beck Madness Thread
 

[quote=hooskins;845254]Sure, but like I said no need to make a change if you achieving your goal of winnings games.

You don't just do something because you are unsure of the possible outcome. What if I went up to my boss and demanded a raise or else? Well I am not going to do that right now because I am getting a fair-market value and secure position in a tough economic climate. There would be no need for me to take such a "what if" action. Same applies in this situation. You can "what if" all you want, but in the end, change is not needed nor wanted by the owner, coach or players (the only ones that matter in this decision if I may add). All we do is win win win![/quote]

If you had been on the job long enough that you'd facilitated an atmosphere where you were clearly an irreplaceable commodity there would be no reason why you shouldn't have the gusto to demand a raise. Rex has not quelled the pre-existing doubts with his perfomances, and has not proven to be that irreplaceable leader who is a force that will drive this franchise forward. Therefore he is expendable, and the next guy in line should be afforded the same opportunity to prove or disprove his merit. Someone who does just enough to get by is often overlooked for potentially greener pastures. But if your hypothetical solution is to manacle yourself to an underwhelming player out of fear that the ramifications for change would be to risky, it seems stagnant to me, but it's your perspective.

Isn't it always the easiest out to say, the coaches make the decisions, and abandon any independent thought outside of that? They are human, and they too are capable of flaw.

Re: Start John Beck Madness Thread
 

[quote=hooskins;845232]What if my parents didn't meet? What if the perfect amount of cosmic material was not present to facilitate the Big Bang?

You can go on and on with "what ifs" and you will never reach any logical conclusion. In the end you make the best decision with what you have got, try to be as proactive as you can but [B]if you are successful there isn't a need for change[/B].[/quote]

Then why run Torain instead of Helu? What if we didnt change it up and give Torain a shot? It was only last week everyone in here was on the Hightower #1RB Helu #2 RB bandwagon, now it seems that since Torain has reasserted himself, most want Torain against the Eagles. This was before word of Hightowers injury was released. Sometimes you have to try something new even when you are winning.

Shanahan said it himself "you cant go off statistics alone" well W-L is a statistic in itself. Its the way your winning and losing that counts.

Grossman is not winning 3-1 the way say Tom Brady is winning 3-1

Not saying Grossman has to be Brady (or ever will be) but just illustrating
the difference in 3-1

I believe with Beck we would be 4-0 right now and have a better chance of going 4-1 game 5. Grossman better put his fast shoes on because the Eagles will be coming at him every play. I also believe game 5 will be the deciding factor in Rex's future as starting QB for the Skins. I guess we wait and see.

With all that said, I do hope Rex shows up. HTTR!

Re: Start John Beck Madness Thread
 

[quote=44ever;845270]I believe with Beck we would be 4-0 right now[/quote]

More like 1-3 maybe 2-2. Possibly 0-4.

Bye the way I have been watching the replay of that colossal Santana Moss screw up during the Rams game.

That was a horrible mistake! Worst play of the game by a Redskin. BY FAR!

He basically turned a huge gain and probable TD and massive momentum in the game 180 degrees by dropping an EASY EASY perfectly placed pass. Not only does he drop it he actually deflects it to about the worst freaking place you can send a ball off your hands in the middle of the field.

Dear Santana. That was total bullshit. TERRIBLE.

Re: Start John Beck Madness Thread
 

[quote=fanarchist;845267]If you had been on the job long enough that you'd facilitated an atmosphere where you were clearly an irreplaceable commodity there would be no reason why you shouldn't have the gusto to demand a raise. Rex has not quelled the pre-existing doubts with his perfomances, and has not proven to be that irreplaceable leader who is a force that will drive this franchise forward. Therefore he is expendable, and the next guy in line should be afforded the same opportunity to prove or disprove his merit. Someone who does just enough to get by is often overlooked for potentially greener pastures. But if your hypothetical solution is to manacle yourself to an underwhelming player out of fear that the ramifications for change would be to risky, it seems stagnant to me, but it's your perspective.

Isn't it always the easiest out to say, the coaches make the decisions, and abandon any independent thought outside of that? They are human, and they too are capable of flaw.[/quote]

If there's one thing I've learned its that nobody, no matter who they are or what they do, is irreplaceable.

Re: Start John Beck Madness Thread
 

I wish it were possible to give a thread a negative rating.