Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

Well, then there is this:

[quote]U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine Geoffrey Pyatt also said Thursday that Russian soldiers were directly involved in the fighting, alongside the pro-Russia rebels.

"Russian-supplied tanks, armored vehicles, artillery and multiple rocket launchers have been insufficient to defeat Ukraine's armed forces, so now an increasing number of Russian troops are intervening directly in the fighting on Ukrainian territory," he said on Twitter.

"Russia has also sent its newest air defense systems including the SA-22 into eastern Ukraine and is now directly involved in the fighting."[/quote]

[url=http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/28/world/europe/ukraine-crisis/index.html?hpt=hp_t1]U.S. official says 1,000 Russian troops enter Ukraine - CNN.com[/url]

It's a brave new world folks and we had better get our priorities figured out ASAP.

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

Like Paul Ryan said, "The vacuum is created and is going to be filled by those who do not share our interests. And that, ultimately, makes America less prosperous and less secure. And I think that is why we're seeing the foreign policy crises pop up around the world."

Read more: [url=http://www.businessinsider.com/paul-ryan-hillary-clinton-obama-foreign-policy-2014-8#ixzz3BhlOIZj2]Paul Ryan On Hillary Clinton, Obama Foreign Policy - Business Insider[/url]

[url=http://www.businessinsider.com/paul-ryan-hillary-clinton-obama-foreign-policy-2014-8]Paul Ryan On Hillary Clinton, Obama Foreign Policy - Business Insider[/url]

Damn shame these guys lost the election

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;1079395]Well, then there is this:



[url=http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/28/world/europe/ukraine-crisis/index.html?hpt=hp_t1]U.S. official says 1,000 Russian troops enter Ukraine - CNN.com[/url]

It's a brave new world folks and we had better get our priorities figured out ASAP.[/quote]

Over Ukraine? Did Bush do anything when they rolled into Georgia? Nope. We don't give a fuck because their isn't any natural resources involved. Same way we aren't doing shit in North Korea or South Africa.

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

Really ought to change the thread title to:

Hey There is a war between Ukraine and Russia - LOOK a Squirrel

There have been prisoner exchanges, tanks and battallions on both sides (I count pro Russia as Russian at this point) and 2- 300 combatants dying every day or two.

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

Russian Times correspondent @PaulaSlier_RT The "Novorossiya Army" claims self-defense fighters have destroyed two #Ukrainian #tanks and two armored personnel carriers.

Heavy Russian slant but on the ground live tweets in Donetsk takes serious guts.

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

Slier: #Russia plans to conduct observation flight over #Germany.

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

I hope this is good news.

[url=http://news.yahoo.com/ukraines-president-confirms-signing-ceasefire-deal-133221012.html]Ukraine's president confirms signing of ceasefire deal[/url]

What would everyone here consider the right outcome/ realistic outcome?

I would hope most everyone would agree the right outcome should be the full restoration of Ukraine sovereignty including Crimea. But some might add monitored referendums to allow for joining with Russia or more regional federalism under a loose Ukraine flag.

As for realistic, sadly I think Russia will create a client state stretching from Odessa, through Crimea and up to the Donetsk Luhansk region. Pretty chilling for Ukraine's economy as they lose all access to the Black Sea.

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

[quote=NC_Skins;1079416]Over Ukraine? Did Bush do anything when they rolled into Georgia? Nope. We don't give a fuck because their isn't any natural resources involved. Same way we aren't doing shit in North Korea or South Africa.[/quote]

War is simple, rich men sending young poor people to die for their money and land. The trick is convincing your population that the war is a good idea.

To me that sums up pretty much every war in human history.

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1080323]I hope this is good news.

[url=http://news.yahoo.com/ukraines-president-confirms-signing-ceasefire-deal-133221012.html]Ukraine's president confirms signing of ceasefire deal[/url]

What would everyone here consider the right outcome/ realistic outcome?

I would hope most everyone would agree the right outcome should be the full restoration of Ukraine sovereignty including Crimea. But some might add monitored referendums to allow for joining with Russia or more regional federalism under a loose Ukraine flag.

As for realistic, sadly I think Russia will create a client state stretching from Odessa, through Crimea and up to the Donetsk Luhansk region. Pretty chilling for Ukraine's economy as they lose all access to the Black Sea.[/quote]

the right outcome in my opinion is that Ukrain figure out what its own people what to do. If there are parts that have different plans then they should consider breaking the country up accordingly.

what I think the wrong outcome will be is any outcome forced by the US or Russia.

unfortunately, if i was a betting man and the wage was available in Vegas I'd fly out there tonight and put everything I own on the latter happening.

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

[url=http://www.cnn.com/2015/02/27/europe/russian-politician-killed/index.html]Boris Nemtsov, outspoken Putin critic, shot dead in Moscow - CNN.com[/url]

Man, shit is cray cray over in Russia

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

Putin assassinates people. The Poland president's plane mysteriously went off a runway in Russia a few years ago and he was killed.

[url=http://news.yahoo.com/exclusive-russia-masses-heavy-firepower-border-ukraine-witness-193815160.html]Exclusive: Russia masses heavy firepower on border with Ukraine - witness[/url]

as anticipated, Maripul will eventually be taken and Russia can complete their land grab.

ohhhhh man are we gonna slap them with sanctions or what!!! maybe target their dairy industry this time?

(sarcasm but cant think of another option, i do not want war or boots on ground)

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

[url=http://news.yahoo.com/russia-says-planes-carrying-military-goods-syria-113410492.html]Israeli defense chief: Russian troops already in Syria[/url]

Folks, you see whats happening? Putin is doing whatever he wants...Russian troops in Syria is big f*ckin news. Big

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

[quote=over the mountain;1113921]Putin assassinates people. The Poland president's plane mysteriously went off a runway in Russia a few years ago and he was killed.

[url=http://news.yahoo.com/exclusive-russia-masses-heavy-firepower-border-ukraine-witness-193815160.html]Exclusive: Russia masses heavy firepower on border with Ukraine - witness[/url]

as anticipated, Maripul will eventually be taken and Russia can complete their land grab.

ohhhhh man are we gonna slap them with sanctions or what!!! [B]maybe target their dairy industry this time? [/B]

(sarcasm but cant think of another option, i do not want war or boots on ground)[/quote]

Perhaps we could get the Ruskies to.....inspect their own Dairies with 124 days notice? Depending on the secret side deals of course.....

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

[quote=Hog1;1119758]Perhaps we could get the Ruskies to.....inspect their own Dairies with 124 days notice? Depending on the secret side deals of course.....[/quote]

it sure would be nice if you read the articles and not just the headlines. one can always hope i guess.

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

Just having a little fun.....
You seem to be a little sensitive?

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

[quote=over the mountain;1113921]Putin assassinates people. The Poland president's plane mysteriously went off a runway in Russia a few years ago and he was killed.

[url=http://news.yahoo.com/exclusive-russia-masses-heavy-firepower-border-ukraine-witness-193815160.html]Exclusive: Russia masses heavy firepower on border with Ukraine - witness[/url]

as anticipated, Maripul will eventually be taken and Russia can complete their land grab.

ohhhhh man are we gonna slap them with sanctions or what!!! maybe target their dairy industry this time?

(sarcasm but cant think of another option, i do not want war or boots on ground)[/quote]

russia's there to help fight back the moderate rebels (since we're working on ISIS, they rather not waste their time with that. I don't think they want land there, but they want a friendly government, and if assad falls, they don't see anyone else to fill that vacuum and be receptive to them.

syria's such a cluster at this point though. there wasn't a lot of support for the moderates early, so now there's tons of hard line islamists fighting there, and if we bomb assad, we help isis, if we bomb isis we help assad. and no matter who we try to give weapons too, everyone ends up getting them since the secularists/moderates/hardliners are all kind of mixed, and everyone's doing things you'd rather not hear about. I have no idea how you fix that.

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

If Russia has ground troops in Syria this is a very big issue. to simply say "oh well" is un-fucking-acceptable by this administration.

Folks, we have Iranian troops and Russian troops fighting along side a regime which has used chemical warfare and had dropped barrell bombs on civilian targets...

Are we serious? Why isnt the media talking about this???? This is a major deal.

We should first yank the Iranian deal immediately off the table and impose the sanctions and then we should be in the UN ass about this escalation. Review sanctions against Russia...

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

[quote=That Guy;1119769]russia's there to help fight back the moderate rebels (since we're working on ISIS, they rather not waste their time with that. I don't think they want land there, but they want a friendly government, and if assad falls, they don't see anyone else to fill that vacuum and be receptive to them.

syria's such a cluster at this point though. there wasn't a lot of support for the moderates early, so now there's tons of hard line islamists fighting there, and if we bomb assad, we help isis, if we bomb isis we help assad. and no matter who we try to give weapons too, everyone ends up getting them since the secularists/moderates/hardliners are all kind of mixed, and everyone's doing things you'd rather not hear about. I have no idea how you fix that.[/quote]

makes you wish we left Saddam in power to keep the balance of power in the unstable region stable or at least in check.

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

[quote=Chico23231;1119807]If Russia has ground troops in Syria this is a very big issue. to simply say "oh well" is un-fucking-acceptable by this administration.
[/quote]

well, i mean, unless we're putting troops there, enforcing the sanctions that are already being enforced or thinking putin cares about the UN probably won't get you very far. russia cares very much about it's sphere of influence and is supporting it's ally (who we don't like very much). they've already taken parts of georgia and the ukraine, and while the sanctions have hurt russia a lot, they've focused the hardships as america waging economic war on them for no good reason (we're more hated in russia now than we've ever been, state controlled media and targetted killings really let you set the message).

I mean, i think a lot of people forget all the times america's done the things we get upset about (illegally trafficking foreigners to black sites to be tortured, supporting strong men with bad human rights records like saddam or the shah, contras, etc). it gets into all those questions of moral relativity, points of view, and whether we're world police or not, etc etc, and i don't really feel like hashing all that out on a football forum.

so to each his own, but I think sometimes these situations aren't as cut and dry or easily solved as some talking heads might have one believe.

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

How can we be more hated in Russia than we have EVER BEEN? That's a pretty huge statement and if true(and I believe it is or close to it) then isn't that quite a condemnation of the whole reset notion passed down by Hillary Clinton and Pres. Obama?

Pres. Putin is absolutely flexing his military muscles, and I don't know that he can be counted on to act as a leader wanting international peace at any cost. I don't say that he wants war, but I will say I don't think he would be afraid of going at it militarily with the US. (He might be more afraid of Israel, but if he has ground troops in Syria than he's not feeling very afraid of them either).

Right now, there are more active battlefields where Russian military are actively engaged than has been the case since 1960's (that's my hyperbole, I don't have stats but I'd be shocked if it wasn't true). And it's not like he has shown any sign that status quo is good enough. Right now, Iran/Russia are quite a powerful alliance in the middle East and Syria/Northern Iraq makes for good land to be divided between them.

Throwing in a little wartime paranoia, it would not be shocking to see the Middle East turn into the start of WW3, as it is in mostly the same shape as Europe was around the start of the 20th century. A couple power centers, a couple minor players, and 3 or 4 deadly enemies. The terrain is obviously different, but there are several places where battle lines could be drawn very easily and very quickly.

edit:
I read this -http://finance.yahoo.com/news/just-got-clearest-sign-yet-181700769.html- after my above post, it has some themes along the same lines.

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

[quote=Chico23231;1119807]If Russia has ground troops in Syria this is a very big issue. to simply say "oh well" is un-fucking-acceptable by this administration.

Folks, we have Iranian troops and Russian troops fighting along side a regime which has used chemical warfare and had dropped barrell bombs on civilian targets...

[B]Are we serious? Why isnt the media talking about this[/B]???? This is a major deal.

We should first yank the Iranian deal immediately off the table and impose the sanctions and then we should be in the UN ass about this escalation. Review sanctions against Russia...[/quote]

YOU know exactly why...

And a little food for thought
[URL="http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/09/09/exclusive-50-spies-say-isis-intelligence-was-cooked.html"]Exclusive: 50 Spies Say ISIS Intelligence Was Cooked - The Daily Beast[/URL]

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

well, where is russia right now? georgia, syria, and ukraine. so they probably have been in more countries at other points (afghanistan/vietnam/all the various skirmish/satellite wars), but i'm not really sure. they definitely aren't doing super well in the ukraine though, and it's getting hard for them to hide the russian body count.

iran/russia aren't really an ironclad alliance of any kind. russia doesn't want iran to have nukes, and i'm not sure they're working in concert, but believe they're just both trying to advance their own regional interests/agendas. I also don't think they're looking to divide up land as much as gain control/influence. they want to leave bashir in power. he's aligned with them and there aren't any (obvious) good alternatives for them.


and yeah, ignoring isis is a huge mistake. while they don't really pose any immediate danger to america, they definitely are causing havoc to our interests and regional stability, and they're much harder to deal with now than 8 or 12 months ago. unfortunately ISIS was probably a preventable problem. (firing the entire iraqi military, telling them they could basically never be employed again was a big mistake, and then ignoring iraq as maliki tried to consolidate power, arresting and excluding sunnis and political rivals).

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

I agree with your last paragraph 100% but...

So Russia and Iran are not working in concert to strategically push there own interest against the west and Israel? It's not about carving up the Middle East...That's your most naive statement.

Believe me, if Putin remembers the fall of the Soviet Union eastern block, then he remembers the failures in Afghanistan. He looking to gain a political foothold within the Middle East again. Syria and Iran are his in. They are hammering out a massive arms deal with the Iranians now. Sending troops into Damascus is a clear escalation...Russia sends a message to the U.S. And Israel we are military aligned with Iran, Syria Assad regime and Hezbollah. The U.S. Needs to recognize this...its crystal clear

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

[quote=Chico23231;1119900]I agree with your last paragraph 100% but...

So Russia and Iran are not working in concert to strategically push there own interest against the west and Israel? It's not about carving up the Middle East...That's your most naive statement.

[/quote]

I said they weren't looking for land but influence, in response to CRR talking about dividing land, so i think you might want to re-read that. I think russia and iran are working with syria, but not necessarily each other, they have different aims, but they both want a friendly syria with bashir in charge, so i'm sure there's some overlap, but they're not in lockstep, which again, i said in my last post.

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

[QUOTE=That Guy;1119904]I said they weren't looking for land but influence, in response to CRR talking about dividing land, so i think you might want to re-read that. I think russia and iran are working with syria, but not necessarily each other, they have different aims, but they both want a friendly syria with bashir in charge, so i'm sure there's some overlap, but they're not in lockstep, which again, i said in my last post.[/QUOTE]
So they didn't take land in Crimea or Georgia? Iran certainly wants northern Iraq land and would gladly partition northern Iraq and Syria.

I also think it is naive to think Putin is not in a solid alliance with Iran. He has shown every inclination to take action first and let the west cry foul afterwards. And him sending top of the line antiaircraft batteries to Syria and resuming military trade with Iran indicates a push into the middle east that is going to open a whole new aspect to the middle east.

Sent from my S6 Edge

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1119915]So they didn't take land in Crimea or Georgia? Iran certainly wants northern Iraq land and would gladly partition northern Iraq and Syria.

[/quote]

he did want land in georgia and crimea, he doesn't in syria. it's far away and an obvious headache. they already had their own misadventures in afghanistan where jihadii's came from far and wide, and they're already up to ~5k deaths in crimea last i heard. they wanted those parts of georgia and the ukraine because they feel those people are russians and they've stated that they consider themselves responsible for all native russian speakers. their aims in syria and with iran are different than the ukraine.

if they wanted to rule syria, they could just invade it, and then they'd have the entire burden of fighting isis, which wouldn't be cheap or popular back home.

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

[url=http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/kerry-russias-deployment-of-fighter-jets-disturbing/article/2572472]Kerry: Russia's deployment of fighter jets disturbing | Washington Examiner[/url]

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

[quote=Hog1;1121212][url=http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/kerry-russias-deployment-of-fighter-jets-disturbing/article/2572472]Kerry: Russia's deployment of fighter jets disturbing | Washington Examiner[/url][/quote]

Kerry needs to get punched in his fucking face because him and the administration has let this happen. Fuck Kerry

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

The last few lines pretty much...sum it up


After years of calls for Assad's removal, Kerry acknowledged this softening by saying that "we're not being doctrinaire about the specific date or time" that Assad must be removed.

"We're open," he noted, adding that Assad does not need to leave "on day one, or month one, or whatever."

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

[QUOTE=Hog1;1121217]The last few lines pretty much...sum it up


After years of calls for Assad's removal, Kerry acknowledged this softening by saying that "we're not being doctrinaire about the specific date or time" that Assad must be removed.

"We're open," he noted, adding that Assad does not need to leave "on day one, or month one, or whatever."[/QUOTE]
Don't worry, Russia is just being friendly.

Sent from my S6 Edge

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

lol
They've always been helpful like that.......

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

Amazing how aggressive Russian has been...equally amazing is our weak response allowing them to do whatever to whomever they want

Found it interesting Russia has announced they will be stepping up and taking in Syrian refugees and ate constructing camps and are sending humanitarian aid to parts of Syria. vSo basically they are beating us to the punch in every aspect of the Syrian crisis.

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

[url=http://www.businessinsider.com/10-maps-that-explain-russias-strategy-2016-1]10 maps that explain Russia's strategy - Business Insider[/url]

I found this article very interesting. It lays out in very clear terms the role that Ukraine/Russian geography plays and the dynamics of Russian geography. In particular was one pair of maps that showed the boundary of the German advance in 1942:
[IMG]http://static6.businessinsider.com/image/56ab8bcf58c323ab078b6409-1200/germany-has.jpg[/IMG]

vs the current map if Ukraine is considered to be unfriendly to Russia:

[IMG]http://static4.businessinsider.com/image/56ab8988c08a80e01b8bd873-1200/russia-is-almost-landlocked.jpg[/IMG]

Basically you could see a Russian mindset that they have lost nearly as much over the last 20 years as Germany took in 1942.

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

Bump ... lots of saber rattling lately but who knows what Putin really intends to do.

This feels like it could be an actual traditional war. Helmet on helmet .. no proxy taliban iraq isis yemen stuff. Syria was pretty close but it was a proxy civil war in my estimate.

One thing is for sure, if it does happen, the political talking points on the left and right in this country will be predictable trench tribal warfare.

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

Unfortunately the Ukraine is in a worse tactical/strategic position than they were in 2014 the last time the Russians made a major move against them (I'm not counting the Donbass situation at that level). Their fleet for all intents was wiped out in 2014 as most of their units were interned in Crimea. If the Russians want to take the whole shebang I think they could.

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

[quote=nonniey;1310561]Unfortunately the Ukraine is in a worse tactical/strategic position than they were in 2014 the last time the Russians made a major move against them (I'm not counting the Donbass situation at that level). Their fleet for all intents was wiped out in 2014 as most of their units were interned in Crimea. If the Russians want to take the whole shebang I think they could.[/quote]

The situation is interesting. Im not going to pretend to know the nuances of the past 30 years of Ukraine-Russia divorce but it seems Putin can take this as far as he wants. Parts of eastern Ukraine he could probably take in a week with his green men. Id guess he has enough clandestine forces there now to do a Crimea. Eastern Ukraine is mostly pro Russia it seems.

I just cant imagine western Ukraine or Kyiv going quietly. They are pro west and theres no way Russia will be able to get away with all the civilian deaths in Ukraine like they did in Syria. Cyber attacks or not, video will get out of crimes against humanity.

Id guess Putin takes parts of eastern Ukraine, solidifies lines and then tries to turn down the temperature. He would have achieved his goal of pouring cold water on the hopes of the people of Ukraine or Georgia ever becoming a NATO member. Perhaps they stop electing pro Nato presidents bc these campaign promises of "we will join NATO" are starting to ring hollow. Thye mght be forced to accept a more pro russian stance allowing Russia to offer them the carrot and not the stick.

Going into western Ukraine or Kyiv ... the snake might choke itself.


[url]https://www.vox.com/22917719/russia-ukraine-invasion-border-crisis-nato-explained[/url]

^^^ a good basic info, how-did-we-get-here article.

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

[quote=SunnySide;1310586]The situation is interesting. Im not going to pretend to know the nuances of the past 30 years of Ukraine-Russia divorce but it seems Putin can take this as far as he wants. Parts of eastern Ukraine he could probably take in a week with his green men. Id guess he has enough clandestine forces there now to do a Crimea. Eastern Ukraine is mostly pro Russia it seems.

I just cant imagine western Ukraine or Kyiv going quietly. They are pro west and theres no way Russia will be able to get away with all the civilian deaths in Ukraine like they did in Syria. Cyber attacks or not, video will get out of crimes against humanity.

Id guess Putin takes parts of eastern Ukraine, solidifies lines and then tries to turn down the temperature. He would have achieved his goal of pouring cold water on the hopes of the people of Ukraine or Georgia ever becoming a NATO member. Perhaps they stop electing pro Nato presidents bc these campaign promises of "we will join NATO" are starting to ring hollow. Thye mght be forced to accept a more pro russian stance allowing Russia to offer them the carrot and not the stick.

Going into western Ukraine or Kyiv ... the snake might choke itself.


[url]https://www.vox.com/22917719/russia-ukraine-invasion-border-crisis-nato-explained[/url]

^^^ a good basic info, how-did-we-get-here article.[/quote]

This is a dangerous game of chicken being played.

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

[quote=nonniey;1310561]Unfortunately [B]the Ukraine[/B] is in a worse tactical/strategic position than they were in 2014 the last time the Russians made a major move against them (I'm not counting the Donbass situation at that level). Their fleet for all intents was wiped out in 2014 as most of their units were interned in Crimea. If the Russians want to take the whole shebang I think they could.[/quote]

Am I interpreting this correctly you dislike Ukraine, or am I reading into it?

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

Does Ukraine want to join NATO or does NATO want Ukraine as a member? I think is kinda a sticking issue which hasn’t been answered.

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

[quote=Chico23231;1310639]Does Ukraine want to join NATO or does NATO want Ukraine as a member? I think is kinda a sticking issue which hasn’t been answered.[/quote]

Ya think??? JHC ,not the point chico,whatever it's Ukraines choice , not Putins.