Re: Who's your pick's for next HC, DC and OC?
 

[quote=The Goat;1033235]Oakland is two years in I believe and looking up, excellent defense and tons of cap room to work with after this season. Cleveland is a better team than the Redskins. Jax is Jax, I guess if that's who you want to keep company with there's no point in discussion.

On the other side of the ledger, you have myriad teams that have done it in three years roughly. Detroit best example IMO. Seattle is a good one like GTripp pointed out. Others have been pointed out as well.[/quote]

So you think any of those teams could overcome a $36 million dollar cap penalty and losing their starting QB to a season ending injury? If one of these two things had not happened, then I would agree with you. But I don't think any team can overcome both.

I'm sure with a better cap situation, we would have an improved o-line or secondary or better ILBs

Re: Who's your pick's for next HC, DC and OC?
 

The "Stupid Meter" always explodes when things are bad. Most of the same people were saying the same things last year before the run.

Honestly, I don't think such a run happens again this year. Something seems to be missing.

To assert, however, that teams can "turn things around" in two or three years is such a vague statement as to be pointless. Hey, we "turned things around" last year and won our division for the first time since '99. Neither Oakland nor Cleveland has turned anything around just yet. You want to say Cleveland is better than us? Maybe/Maybe not. Oakland? Pshaww. I think they are [I]finally[/I] on the right track but have a lot further to go than us. Check back in 3 or 4 years and we can discuss if these traditionally horrific franchises have acheived sustained success and really turned the corner or if this is just their latest incarnation of false hope.

BTW - TBay only turned things around after Dungy built a team, left and let Gruden ride it to the SB - have they since sustained the turnaround? Most teams, however, don't break out of mediocrity in a couple years and sustain success. Most fall back to mediocrity.

Re: Who's your pick's for next HC, DC and OC?
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;1033225]Actually what GOAT said isn't really all that crazy, Arizona went from a laughing stock to a SB contender after just a few good drafts and FA pick ups.

TB and NO did as well.

ALL 3 of those teams are considered 3 OF THE WORST TEAMS IN NFL HISTORY[/quote]

... and now two of the three are back in the throws of mediocrity and, in the case of TBay, a debacle that will only grow.

Re: Who's your pick's for next HC, DC and OC?
 

yeah but if your really looking to be "GREAT" for 10 plus years that just doesn't happen anymore, unless you have Brady or Manning. It's hard to be a legit contender for so many years

Re: Who's your pick's for next HC, DC and OC?
 

The Saints turned things around and the reversal stuck (except for a hiccup last year). But they have Brees.

And then there is us, defending NFCE champs. Despite the many forks being stuck into us, we're not done yet.

Re: Who's your pick's for next HC, DC and OC?
 

The irony is Mike has a team very similar today to what he took over four years ago i.e. very limited depth along the oline and several other positions, but enough starting talent we should be competing in every game. Talent isn't the issue. Coaching, throughout the week and especially on game day, is the problem. And I really don't think anyone has good intuition how we get better in that regard with Mike at HC, at least I haven't seen any good ideas here. It's all FUBAR because of intertwined family dynamics and frankly Mike hasn't put together a solid coaching structure since his days with Elway.

Re: Who's your pick's for next HC, DC and OC?
 

Most examples of teams turning around equate to finding a QB. NO got Drew Brees, Arizona got Kurt Warner, Detroit had their QB in Mathew Stafford, he was just always injured early in his career (went on for several seasons). Once he overcame those and was able to finish seasons, they started winning a fair amount. Even in TB, Freeman played pretty good for one year, but the ownership decided to blow it up during the uncapped year and had a lower payroll than most SEC teams that year.

Which always brings me back to the fact that we dodged a bullet with Gabbert. Who a large amount of people wanted here and cursed Shanny for trading down and grabbing Kerrigan. I can only imagine the get rid of Shanny threads right after that draft. RG3 is off so far this year, which is understandable at this point (injury, no offseason or preseason work). Lets face it, if he is on, we win against Detroit and Dallas. Still should have won against Detroit even with him not being 100%. If people think Detroit is a good team, then we cant be that far off. Which goes against what most people are saying.

Re: Who's your pick's for next HC, DC and OC?
 

[quote=The Goat;1033277]Talent isn't the issue.[/quote]

Uh no....it really is. Our line is Trent plus 4 guys who couldn't handle a DL built from scrubs.

Our WRs are missing something at the top and can't win battles consistently.

Our secondary is a problem.

Our LBs are a problem.

Now in each case (except Oline) we're talking about adding maybe one guy to steady the corps but we've been playing literally with a shoestring budget for two years now.

We're better at each spot with the 36 mil. We have a RT for sure and probably a new center. A Safety surely and at least one LB and CB

That's enough to change this team incalculably.

Re: Who's your pick's for next HC, DC and OC?
 

This team is not as bad as eveyone says. We won the divison championship last. The problem is this "sky is falling" media makes it seem that we are one step from total disaster.

We need a quality number 2 reciever, a solid safety, and a kick returner. The line is bad but they can be better they proved it last year. Confidence is low it reflects on the field.
Bring in Chris Rainey.

Re: Who's your pick's for next HC, DC and OC?
 

[quote=FRPLG;1033283]Uh no....it really is. Our line is Trent plus 4 guys who couldn't handle a DL built from scrubs.

Our WRs are missing something at the top and can't win battles consistently.

Our secondary is a problem.

Our LBs are a problem.

Now in each case (except Oline) we're talking about adding maybe one guy to steady the corps but we've been playing literally with a shoestring budget for two years now.

We're better at each spot with the 36 mil. We have a RT for sure and probably a new center. A Safety surely and at least one LB and CB

That's enough to change this team incalculably.[/quote]


earlier I agreed with GOAT about the turn around with teams and didn't agree w u, Now I agree with u and not him on talent for this team lol.

Lack of talent is the issue folks, besides Garcon who else is a threat at WR?? Nobody. We r relying on a rookie TE to make plays. Morris is really our only good RB (HELU cant' block)

And our D has very limited talent, Riley, RK, Coefield and Hall are the only guys playing good this yr so far.

Re: Who's your pick's for next HC, DC and OC?
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;1033291]earlier I agreed with GOAT about the turn around with teams and didn't agree w u, Now I agree with u and not him on talent for this team lol.

Lack of talent is the issue folks, besides Garcon who else is a threat at WR?? Nobody. We r relying on a rookie TE to make plays. Morris is really our only good RB (HELU cant' block)

And our D has very limited talent, Riley, RK, Coefield and Hall are the only guys playing good this yr so far.[/quote]

While our WR corps could use some help, Garcon isn't the only threat like you suggested. Santana Moss is fast, reliable, and caught quite a few TDs last year. Hankerson is big, fast, and has good hands; currently he's second on the team in yards and TDs, and leads in yards per catch. It's not [I]just[/I] Garcon.

Lack of talent is part of the issue, but a big reason Shanahan hasn't been able to field better talent is because of the cap penalty. I definitely think the team is more talented than when Shanahan took over.

Re: Who's your pick's for next HC, DC and OC?
 

sorry bro but Moss is done
and Hank cant catch a cold

Re: Who's your pick's for next HC, DC and OC?
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;1033296]sorry bro but Moss is done
and Hank cant catch a cold[/quote]

[quote]sorry bro but Moss is done[/quote]

Why do you say that?

[quote]and Hank cant catch a cold[/quote]

Why do you say that?

Re: Who's your pick's for next HC, DC and OC?
 

did u see Moss anywhere sunday night? I love the guy and he's always been a true gamer but he isn't involved much anymore

and Hank had a perfect Pass to him and he dropped it right in his chest on a crucial play late in the game

Re: Who's your pick's for next HC, DC and OC?
 

Moss has largely been schemed out of the offense, and when he does get reps RG overlooks or misses him wide open quite a lot. Several factors contributing as to why it looks like we don't have enough downfield weapons.

For one thing I hate the way routes get bunched up. We don't run a spread offense (don't really spread the field well at all) and rarely have more than three targets downfield, yet time and again they're all within a few yards of each other. It's beyond frustrating.

Re: Who's your pick's for next HC, DC and OC?
 

I do agree we need to spread it out more. I am a little lost on some of what we're scheming up offensively. Other teams seem to be able to maximize what they have and do well. We seem to try and force it too much.

Re: Who's your pick's for next HC, DC and OC?
 

I just Hate the stupid WR in the backfield crap.

Re: Who's your pick's for next HC, DC and OC?
 

Speaking of not maximizing players potential, it amazes me Helu isn't recording Reggie Bush type numbers. That guy is dynamite when healthy but it's a moot point when we limit him to behind the tackles and a few botched screen passes or checkdowns.

Re: Who's your pick's for next HC, DC and OC?
 

There was a play I was looking at on Game Rewind on 1st and 10 from our own 20 in the 4th quarter (the drive where RG3 fumbled) and we start the play with 9 players in the box and Hankerson about 2 feet from Trent. I'm not sure what the point was of that formation, especially at that juncture of the game.

That tells the defense that they only have to worry about 3 players max going past 10-15 yards and with the game situation they weren't all that concerned with the run.

Kyle has a bad habit of trying to be way too cute/clever for the sake of 3 yards.

Re: Who's your pick's for next HC, DC and OC?
 

[quote=The Goat;1033316]Speaking of not maximizing players potential, it amazes me Helu isn't recording Reggie Bush type numbers. That guy is dynamite when healthy but it's a moot point when we limit him to behind the tackles and a few botched screen passes or checkdowns.[/quote]

No, he's not. Helu has terrible field vision, no patience and below average balance as a runner.

Re: Who's your pick's for next HC, DC and OC?
 

[quote=Paintrain;1033321]No, he's not. Helu has terrible field vision, no patience and below average balance as a runner.[/quote]

C'mon man. In space Helu is excellent and has that 2nd gear unlike most of our weapons. He's not a power back but to say he's terrible.

...I see way more positive out there than most of you guys and I get labeled the pessimist. What the deuce?

Re: Who's your pick's for next HC, DC and OC?
 

Tom Clements
Pete Carmichael
Phillip Montgomery as OC or QB Coach or WR Coach

Re: Who's your pick's for next HC, DC and OC?
 

[quote=The Goat;1033324]C'mon man. In space Helu is excellent and has that 2nd gear unlike most of our weapons. He's not a power back but to say he's terrible.

[B]...I see way more positive out there than most of you guys and I get labeled the pessimist. What the deuce?[/B][/quote]

Because you are seeing the positives... now... as a way to say its bad coaching. Most of last year, you were saying the talent was bad as a way to say Shanny needs to be fired due to being a terrible GM. You went from we have terrible players to we have a very talented team without any additions from last year to this year due to cap space. Its nothing more than trying to do the Fire Shanny routine while changing tactics, and going against what you had previously said.

Roy Helu is no Reggie Bush, which im pretty sure you already know. He is a third down back. He is primarily going to be used on check downs or the occasional wheel route. To get those types of numbers means benching Alfred Morris, which I consider a mistake. He is the workhorse of the group, and it should stay that way.

You make some good points, the receivers ending up in the same spots to name one. But its this complete changes of opinions that go against what you previously said that has people rolling their eyes.

Re: Who's your pick's for next HC, DC and OC?
 

[quote=Skinzman;1033326][B]Because you are seeing the positives... now... as a way to say its bad coaching. Most of last year, you were saying the talent was bad as a way to say Shanny needs to be fired due to being a terrible GM. You went from we have terrible players to we have a very talented team without any additions from last year to this year due to cap space. Its nothing more than trying to do the Fire Shanny routine while changing tactics, and going against what you had previously said. [/B]

Roy Helu is no Reggie Bush, which im pretty sure you already know. He is a third down back. He is primarily going to be used on check downs or the occasional wheel route. To get those types of numbers means benching Alfred Morris, which I consider a mistake. He is the workhorse of the group, and it should stay that way.

You make some good points, the receivers ending up in the same spots to name one. But its this complete changes of opinions that go against what you previously said that has people rolling their eyes.[/quote]
..............Ruh Roh, somebody looked behind the screen

Re: Who's your pick's for next HC, DC and OC?
 

[quote=Skinzman;1033326]Because you are seeing the positives... now... as a way to say its bad coaching. Most of last year, you were saying the talent was bad as a way to say Shanny needs to be fired due to being a terrible GM. You went from we have terrible players to we have a very talented team without any additions from last year to this year due to cap space. Its nothing more than trying to do the Fire Shanny routine while changing tactics, and going against what you had previously said.

Roy Helu is no Reggie Bush, which im pretty sure you already know. He is a third down back. He is primarily going to be used on check downs or the occasional wheel route. To get those types of numbers means benching Alfred Morris, which I consider a mistake. He is the workhorse of the group, and it should stay that way.

You make some good points, the receivers ending up in the same spots to name one. But its this complete changes of opinions that go against what you previously said that has people rolling their eyes.[/quote]

I've been pretty consistent about both things. Here's a post from last year:

[B]Coaching, in every aspect no less, has improved pretty markedly. Offensively, we saw the number of busted plays go from 5+ to 1 or 2 per game to 0 or 1 per game. That's pretty dramatic IMO. Defensively, we stopped minimizing our talent. London is staying in the middle more and getting zone time on pass plays. Rob Jackson is developing. Guys are swarming with intensity.

But I don't think we've been outperforming our talent over these last 5 games. I think execution has improved nominally. Passes are still dropped, carries still fumbled, sacks given up. The real story of improvement has been coaching, on both sides of the ball. Kyle's play-calling and Haslett's scheming are the big ones, but we're even getting the little things right all the sudden. Paul wasn't targeted once last game, right?

The real question is whether the improvement continues, or is this just a run? Short of sniffing the SB this season, we probably won't know what this is till next season. Are we gonna be 11-5, or back to 6-10? I'm not talented enough to say "I know" but there are good arguments on both sides of the debate.[/B]

I said our talent was in line with the 2nd half of the season. You may not be able to comprehend nuance though, at least that's been your MO so far.

Re: Who's your pick's for next HC, DC and OC?
 

[quote=The Goat;1033333]I've been pretty consistent about both things. Here's a post from last year:

[B]Coaching, in every aspect no less, has improved pretty markedly. Offensively, we saw the number of busted plays go from 5+ to 1 or 2 per game to 0 or 1 per game. That's pretty dramatic IMO. Defensively, we stopped minimizing our talent. London is staying in the middle more and getting zone time on pass plays. Rob Jackson is developing. Guys are swarming with intensity.

But I don't think we've been outperforming our talent over these last 5 games. I think execution has improved nominally. Passes are still dropped, carries still fumbled, sacks given up. The real story of improvement has been coaching, on both sides of the ball. Kyle's play-calling and Haslett's scheming are the big ones, but we're even getting the little things right all the sudden. Paul wasn't targeted once last game, right?

The real question is whether the improvement continues, or is this just a run? Short of sniffing the SB this season, we probably won't know what this is till next season. Are we gonna be 11-5, or back to 6-10? I'm not talented enough to say "I know" but there are good arguments on both sides of the debate.[/B]

I said our talent was in line with the 2nd half of the season. You may not be able to comprehend nuance though, at least that's been your MO so far.[/quote]

The very first line is exactly what im saying. One time its bad coaching with talent to succeed, the next is a terrible GM and no talent. You said not enough talent early last year. Thats exactly what im saying. Being consistent about both things dont match, its impossible for those to match. There is no nuance there. Its changing of opinions based on the "Fire Shanny" rant of the day.

Re: Who's your pick's for next HC, DC and OC?
 

[quote=30gut;1033325]Tom Clements
Pete Carmichael
Phillip Montgomery as OC or QB Coach or WR Coach[/quote]

I like Carmichael. Have heard not so great things about Clements. Think Monty is being overlooked

Re: Who's your pick's for next HC, DC and OC?
 

Ken Wisenhunt should get another shot.

Re: Who's your pick's for next HC, DC and OC?
 

If we lose out ( I hope we don't) Shanahan and crew should be canned (I would can him if we do not finish 8-8). Not sure who we should be in as a head coach but I would go to a 4-3 defense. People will say we don't have the personal but we are very close - Rak & Kerrigan DE's Colfield< Baker and Jenkins, Nield DT. Still have Bowen DE, Golston (could play both DE and DT). Jackson OLB 0 Riley, B Jenkins, (Fletcher retired) MLB. CB"S & Safites - need to be addressed.

Re: Who's your pick's for next HC, DC and OC?
 

[quote=VTSkins1961;1033341]If we lose out ( I hope we don't) Shanahan and crew should be canned (I would can him if we do not finish 8-8). Not sure who we should be in as a head coach but I would go to a 4-3 defense. People will say we don't have the personal but we are very close - Rak & Kerrigan DE's Colfield< Baker and Jenkins, Nield DT. Still have Bowen DE, Golston (could play both DE and DT). Jackson OLB 0 Riley, B Jenkins, (Fletcher retired) MLB. CB"S & Safites - need to be addressed.[/quote]

That's all fine if they fire the coaches and bring in a new staff, but Rak hasn't played DE in the NFL. He was moved to LB when we played the 4-3, he isn't a very good pass rusher either way. Kerrigan is a good overall LB and wouldn't change that with moving him. I can see Rak leaving this offseason and take a Carlos or Laron one year deal to prove himself.

Re: Who's your pick's for next HC, DC and OC?
 

[quote=CrustyRedskin;1033336]Ken Wisenhunt should get another shot.[/quote]

Agreed, but idk if he fits here.

Re: Who's your pick's for next HC, DC and OC?
 

[quote=redskins5044;1033343]That's all fine if they fire the coaches and bring in a new staff, but Rak hasn't played DE in the NFL. He was moved to LB when we played the 4-3, he isn't a very good pass rusher either way. Kerrigan is a good overall LB and wouldn't change that with moving him. I can see Rak leaving this offseason and take a Carlos or Laron one year deal to prove himself.[/quote]

IF Rak had some trade value might be worth trading him either picks or a db... MY point was 3-4 has not worked due to personal and/or coaching. Shanahan won't go back to a 4-3. I've never like the 3-4 but if we had a top 10 defense than I'd be okay with it...

Re: Who's your pick's for next HC, DC and OC?
 

[QUOTE=CrustyRedskin;1033336]Ken Wisenhunt should get another shot.[/QUOTE]

YES! He was a good coach. Russ Grimm is another guy I'd like to have/deserving of an Asst. HC role.

To tweak my guys from the other day, I'd go with:

Head Coach--Mike Zimmer

OC--Phillip Montgomery

DC--Ron Rivera

Re: Who's your pick's for next HC, DC and OC?
 

I'd be willing to bet Orakpo would thrive as a 4-3 DE regardless of how much time he has spent at OLB... Kerrigan also IMO .. both played there in college and i still think they have the talent...

Re: Who's your pick's for next HC, DC and OC?
 

[quote=Meks;1033350]I'd be willing to bet Orakpo would thrive as a 4-3 DE regardless of how much time he has spent at OLB... Kerrigan also IMO .. both played there in college and i still think they have the talent...[/quote]

Hand in the dirt or 2 point stance, it doesn't matter, Orakpo seldomly gets the QB. Also when we played a 4-3, he was an OLB.

Re: Who's your pick's for next HC, DC and OC?
 

[quote=Meks;1033350]I'd be willing to bet Orakpo would thrive as a 4-3 DE regardless of how much time he has spent at OLB... Kerrigan also IMO .. both played there in college and i still think they have the talent...[/quote]

Agreed. I think Rak improves as DE and Kerrigan at least as good as he's been, which is totally solid.

Rak.won't.be in.Washington after next yr

[QUOTE=skinsfaninok;1033356]Rak.won't.be in.Washington after next yr[/QUOTE]

Won't make much sense to let him walk. Plenty of cap space, LBs that can get you 10 sacks a year don't grow on trees.

Re: Who's your pick's for next HC, DC and OC?
 

Word. Rak at DE and maybe rob Jackson at weak side LB could be pretty sweet.

Re: Who's your pick's for next HC, DC and OC?
 

[quote=SolidSnake84;1033031]TheGoat posted about franchises being turned around completely within 3 years. I know that it's happened but I can't think of the team. I've said it on here many times, I once watched a very interesting show on the NFL network, about the NFL's most winning teams, and they all had nearly the same amount of time that it took to put the team together. They said between 5 and 7 years to where a team was consistent and in the playoffs every year.[/quote]

Wow 5-7 yrs? I can't imagine any owner waiting that long to see results? At the same time there should be some noticable and consistent results during that span. Other than last years playoff berth (which is looking like an abberation) there hasn't been anything to make anyone think The Redskins are heading in the right direction.