Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;1064812]From the Article:

"Obama said Putin acted out of weakness, not strength."

I just don't know how to respond to such an idiotic statement. Really. Stunned at the self-delusion.[/quote]


Self delusional? Nah. He just knows the general public tends to be a bunch of morons that will swallow anything.

One smart kid in the room makes better use of his time than to entertain a circus idiot.

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/olCQw30.jpg[/IMG]

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

It should be understood that as much as I personally dislike the "US as world policeman" role, if there is even the perception that the US doesn't stand up for weaker countries, then countries that have a precarious position in their part of the world may very well take actions into their own hands.

[url]http://news.yahoo.com/israel-steps-talk-threat-force-iran-154404038.html[/url]

Looks like it's finally kicked off in Ukraine.

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Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

[quote=Chico23231;1064842]Look back at the Obama presidency, its been like this the whole time. Basically sound bites and rhetorical quotes with little or no action. Apathetic response by the voters is even more disappointing than this President. I think he will be remembered as the most disappointing President of the modern time.[/quote]

Or at least the most disappointing President since George W. Bush, the President who could not catch Osama bin Laden but could tank an economy.

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1065019]It should be understood that as much as I personally dislike the "US as world policeman" role, if there is even the perception that the US doesn't stand up for weaker countries, then countries that have a precarious position in their part of the world may very well take actions into their own hands.

[url]http://news.yahoo.com/israel-steps-talk-threat-force-iran-154404038.html[/url][/quote]

History has shown that when the US goes it alone, bad repercussions inevitably develop.

If Ukraine is to receive military assistance, what is needed is an international coalition involving the UN and the EU. The US must have willing partners.

[QUOTE=Lotus;1065068]History has shown that when the US goes it alone, bad repercussions inevitably develop.

If Ukraine is to receive military assistance, what is needed is an international coalition involving the UN and the EU. The US must have willing partners.[/QUOTE]

I think history has shown the opposite, since the early 1900s if the US has allowed vacuum politics in Europe, historical conflicts re-emerge. In the case of Ukraine, much like in 91 no country was going to support the overt takeover of another country's territory, and if the US had acted less passively Russia would have found itself isolated as the votes in the EU and UN showed. But a weak leadership is forcing lesser players to feel threatened and more inclined to take their safety into their own hands. That path ultimately leads to more fractions and strife.

We had a UN mandate for Iraq, look how that turned out..

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Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

[quote=RedskinRat;1065124]We had a UN mandate for Iraq, look how that turned out..

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk[/quote]

True. But Iraq was just a bad idea from the get-go and would have been worse if we had gone it alone. Having a "coalition of the willing" helped to cut losses.

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1065119]I think history has shown the opposite, since the early 1900s if the US has allowed vacuum politics in Europe, historical conflicts re-emerge. In the case of Ukraine, much like in 91 no country was going to support the overt takeover of another country's territory, and if the US had acted less passively Russia would have found itself isolated as the votes in the EU and UN showed. But a weak leadership is forcing lesser players to feel threatened and more inclined to take their safety into their own hands. That path ultimately leads to more fractions and strife.[/quote]

I'm talking about a different issue. My point is this: if military force is desirable to counteract the "vacuum politics" you mention, it always works out better if that military force is an alliance, rather than the US acting alone.

History teaches us that calling for Obama to go it alone in the Crimea likely is calling for major unforeseen problems for the US down the road. Some folks need to be careful what they wish for.

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

[quote=Lotus;1065127]True. But Iraq was just a bad idea from the get-go and would have been worse if we had gone it alone. Having a "coalition of the willing" helped to cut losses.[/quote]

Iraq was a noble idea, poorly executed because politics and political correctness were inserted to a sphere of life that by its very nature needs to remain brutal and unpleasant.

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

[quote=Lotus;1065128]I'm talking about a different issue. My point is this: if military force is desirable to counteract the "vacuum politics" you mention, it always works out better if that military force is an alliance, rather than the US acting alone.

History teaches us that calling for Obama to go it alone in the Crimea likely is calling for major unforeseen problems for the US down the road. Some folks need to be careful what they wish for.[/quote]

This is a U.N. issue, we (the U.S.) do not need to take the point on this conflict.

A sovereign state has been invaded. It's very simple.

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

Very interesting look at the financial/legal power Ukraine ought to wield against Russia:
[url=http://blogs.piie.com/realtime/?p=4259]RealTime Economic Issues Watch | How Ukraine Can Use Sanctions to Counter Russia’s Aggression[/url]

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

they can tank gazprom and really hurt russia economically. and since everyone is on their side, russia has no where to go cry about it.

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

[IMG]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BjkQ9ajCUAAYjU8.jpg[/IMG]

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

The Russian view of the situation, including how they see sanctions impacting them:

[url=http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-ukraine-crisis-and-vladimir-putin-a-new-financial-system-free-from-wall-street-and-the-city-of-london/5374785]The Ukraine Crisis and Vladimir Putin: A New Financial System Free from Wall Street and the City of London? | Global Research[/url]

found it a pretty interesting read. Parts of it might convert NC_Skins!

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

It's amazing nobody cares that Putin has amassed a fuckin invading force along the border of eastern Ukraine in the last 2 weeks. Folks they are going to invade the Ukraine.

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

If I were Eastern Ukraine, I would be very worried about when Putin sets up a meeting with Obama, or if Obama sets a line in the sand.

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1065766]If I were Eastern Ukraine, I would be very worried about when Putin sets up a meeting with Obama, or if Obama sets a line in the sand.[/quote]

Don't worry. I am sure there will be peace in our time.

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

[quote=Chico23231;1065762]It's amazing nobody cares that Putin has amassed a fuckin invading force along the border of eastern Ukraine in the last 2 weeks. Folks they are going to invade the Ukraine.[/quote]

It's ok, we'll disable their twitter accounts.

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

Reading the news, intelligence reports are stating embedded with the troops are a good number of medical personnel and roaming military hospitals. Why would they need those?

[QUOTE=Chico23231;1065852]Reading the news, intelligence reports are stating embedded with the troops are a good number of medical personnel and roaming military hospitals. Why would they need those?[/QUOTE]

To help all the Russian speaking people in eastern Ukraine who sprain their ankles.
/sarc

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1065476]The Russian view of the situation, including how they see sanctions impacting them:

[url=http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-ukraine-crisis-and-vladimir-putin-a-new-financial-system-free-from-wall-street-and-the-city-of-london/5374785]The Ukraine Crisis and Vladimir Putin: A New Financial System Free from Wall Street and the City of London? | Global Research[/url]

found it a pretty interesting read. Parts of it might convert NC_Skins![/quote]Is this a joke article? It sounds straight out of a North Korea declaration.

"And it is Putin, the first leader who resisted and defeated the strategy of world domination, who is enjoying the enthusiastic support of his people and the growing admiration of the world. The well financed media and politicians do not want to hear this, but this is the reality. Without exaggeration, one can compare this resistance to that against Napoleon and Hitler…"

Yes, nothing says "resisting against Napoleon and Hitler" like invading and annexing your neighbors. Wait a minute....

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

according to the text this is video of a Ukraine fighter, then a few seconds later a Russian ground attack plane, flying over ground near Kramatorsk - Eastern region near Donetsk.

[url=http://yahoonews.tumblr.com/post/82825254431/ukrainian-su-37-fighter-flies-over-kramatorsk]Ukrainian SU-37 fighter flies over Kramatorsk,... | Yahoo News[/url]

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

the ukraine situation is getting real, real fast.

it has been very interesting to follow this situation. there is a ukraine forum on topix.com which gives you unique insight to what is happening on the ground and what some people think. the russian message board (not surprisingly) has very little voiced dissent and it seems like ppl are smart enough to not air any negative opinions of the kremlin.

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

[url=http://wtvr.com/2014/04/17/leaflets-warn-ukrainian-jews-to-register-or-face-deportation/]Leaflets warn Ukrainian Jews to register, or face deportation | WTVR.com[/url]

Wow. Im sure this has peaked Isreal's interest.

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

I really don't know if I am just over thinking this, or the administration is just ignorant of Russian beliefs and intentions. Quick news came out yesterday that the sides had reached an agreement in Geneva, and from the administration's statements, you would think that Russia finally agreed to something, but here are the 5 main points ([URL="http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/17/ukraine-crisis-agreement-us-russia-eu"]from a guardian article[/URL]):

The deal has five main points:

• All sides refrain from violence, and reject expressions "of extremism, racism and religious intolerance, including antisemitism".

• All illegal armed groups must be disarmed; all illegally seized buildings must be returned; all illegally occupied streets and other public places in Ukrainian cities and towns must be vacated.

• Amnesty will be granted to protesters and to those who have left buildings and other public places and surrendered weapons, with the exception of those found guilty of capital crimes.

• The OSCE would play a leading role in helping the authorities implement the agreement.

• Constitutional reform would be inclusive, transparent and accountable.

But looking at the points in order:
1) Russia has already stated that it believes that the Ukrainian interim government is the one failing to "refrain from violence, and reject expressions "of extremism, racism and religious intolerance, including antisemitism"". And if the Ukrainian government were to use force to put down Russian protesters, Russia could point to this bullet point and say Kiev is at fault

2) Again, Russia believes the former president who was ousted is the rightful president of Ukraine, and that the current occupiers of Kiev would also be included as "All illegal armed groups must be disarmed; all illegally seized buildings must be returned; all illegally occupied streets and other public places in Ukrainian cities and towns must be vacated." In other words, Russia could use this part to overturn the actions of February, or at least justification for it.

3) Who decides who is guilty of capital crimes? Would the February actions be considered treason and thus capital crimes in Russia's view. I would say yes.

4) The OSCE will play a leading role, this again gives cover for Russian military action. Sure OSCE might fight it, but again, Russia and Putin specifically is speaking to Russian citizens, he already has shown he doesn't care what the West thinks of his actions.

5) the Soviet constitution was all those things, but the words were meaningless.


Maybe Putin actually means it the same way the West understands it, but I highly doubt it.

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

Actually, Russia is already saying what I just posted:

[url=http://tsn.ua/politika/rosiya-vimagaye-vid-ukrayini-rozzbroyiti-praviy-sektor-346124.html]Ukranian Newspaper article[/url]

it's in Ukranian, atleast in Chrome you can use google translate to come up with this:

[QUOTE]Russia calls on Kyiv disarm "Right sector" referring to an agreement in Geneva during the quadripartite talks. This was stated by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Russia. The department clarified that this meant as agreed with the EU diplomats, the U.S. and Ukraine on the need to disarming the militias. "Obviously, when we talk about disarmament, it, first of all, the removal of weapons in" the right sector "and other fascist groups who participated in the February revolution in Kiev. Same Square proponents must first release the captured their public institutions and other facilities in the capital and western regions, "- said in a statement the Russian Foreign Ministry.
Більше читайте тут: [url=http://tsn.ua/politika/rosiya-vimagaye-vid-ukrayini-rozzbroyiti-praviy-sektor-346124.html]Ukrainian Article[/url][/QUOTE]

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

The funny thing about this situation is Putin could end the instability in Ukraine pretty easily if he truly wanted to. He is just gettin off now and I really think his is measuring more the Europeans than the us. He has his eye on the prize and think he has a lot of wheels in motion not only Ukraine but other ex soviet states. He may feel comfortable enough with his economy to go for it, but he is certainly monitoring the internal pressure upon the Russian economy to see if it could handle more stress.

Also think Putin knows he has a window with Obama but he might not get the same advantage with a republican in the White House.

Pretty unnerving story of a city's mayor disappearing. [url]http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/04/20/world/europe/pro-russian-forces-work-on-consolidating-power.html?_r=0&referrer=[/url]

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

[url=http://ecfr.eu/content/entry/commentary_putins_plan249]Putin's plan | European Council on Foreign Relations[/url]

very well written and probably dead on as to what Putin is trying to accomplish, and what he is willing to do to get there.

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

[IMG]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bl2xIsXCUAAXQkM.jpg[/IMG]

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1068901][url=http://ecfr.eu/content/entry/commentary_putins_plan249]Putin's plan | European Council on Foreign Relations[/url]

very well written and probably dead on as to what Putin is trying to accomplish, and what he is willing to do to get there.[/quote]

that is a good summary of the big picture.

i read an article on the russia-china pipe line (maybe it was from this thread) that russia really doesnt want to got that route bc china has been demanding that russia pay the construction cost and that would make the deal unprofitable for russia for the first 20 years or so and at this point china holds all the negotiation cards.

i read an article (maybe here) that the major oil companies are falling over themselves to tell russia that they will do business with them no matter what and somethign aobut tapping into shale north of russia.

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

[url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/biden-pledges-us-support-for-fair-elections-in-ukraine-and-to-weather-russian-economic-pressure/2014/04/22/461781ee-c9dd-11e3-95f7-7ecdde72d2ea_story.html]To buoy shaky Ukrainian government, U.S. pledging aid and sending troops to E. Europe - The Washington Post[/url]


Guess they don't trust Putin too much after all.

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

[IMG]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bl8Md49CUAEzqnF.jpg[/IMG]

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

[IMG]http://cdn2.vox-cdn.com/assets/4349847/LLDyVDX.png[/IMG]

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

Romania watches and wonders:

[IMG]http://cdn1.vox-cdn.com/assets/4349879/mjDNerE__1_.png[/IMG]

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

[url=http://www.vox.com/cards/ukraine-everything-you-need-to-know/is-there-a-series-of-pithy-political-cartoons-summing-up-the-crisis]Is there a series of irreverent political cartoons summing up the crisis? - Everything you need to know about the Ukraine crisis - Vox[/url]

a few more of the above

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

In all seriousness


Person is driving past a Russian flagged military column for 2 minutes, and at the 10 second mark he turns the camera to his right, and another column of armored vehicles is waiting to join in. I don't know what roadway, or where this is located, but assume that it's on the border like the tweet says.



Ana
‏@AnaM0978
Russian armored vehicles on the border with #Ukraine. #Sloviansk #DonetskRepublic #Russia

[YT]o8_Rl0pbkUk [/YT]

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

yeah its on like donkey kong.

sad that it seems inevitable at this point that so many ukraines are going to die for a feeble but principled stand against russia.

real surprised by the 70-80% support rate putin is receiving in russia. even knowing the polls are kremlin sponsored and rigged.

i cant help but think thermal global nuclear war is definitely going to happen in my or my daughters life time.

what will i do leading up to it? working 50 hours a week, sitting in rush hour traffic 2 hours a day, spending time conversing with automated phone systems, yelling at a printer, getting bitched at by a woman who hates me and driving a car in the summertime with no ac. i wish i had the gumption to cut the cord and go live life instead of running out the clock.

OTM, fight the power!

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