Re: To Read Option, or Not
 

[quote=Monkeydad;1005697]Since the Oilers never won a Super Bowl, Warren Moon was just a gimmick.[/quote]

As was Dan Fouts and the Air Coryell offense. Also, Dan Marino and the Marks Brothers were a gimmick.

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Jamarcus Russell was a gimmick.

Heck, the Raiders are a gimmick.

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just throwing the Run and SHoot out there for yal to kick around! I do remember Detroit, Atlanta, and Houston all making the playoffs one year with it. May have been 91. I know Buddy Ryan lovved it. lol

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[quote=SmootSmack;1005506]No comment[/quote]

LOL. I can agree to disagree.

Context is also important here. You don't hear many positive comments about us (Shanny especially) outside Skins fandom, which for me is basically just this board. Last night is a good example. Watched the draft with a houseful of football buddies plus wives and girlfriends. Cowboys fans. Steelers. Saints. Seahawks. Broncos. The few times a convo turned toward the Skins there was a single theme: "What the eff are the Redskins/Shanahans thinking?" About the read-option. About keeping RG on the field after the Baltimore injury, and most especially in the playoff game. Literally, every person at the house, and every football fan I've ever chatted with outside this board, thought keeping RG in that game was/is the most appalling decision/behavior they've seen by a coach anywhere (pro, college, other sports).

I'd like to think my views are pretty reasonable, given I listen to a lot of different perspectives and avoid a "bubble" experience.

I guess my bottom line: if we continue to use RG as a running QB the likelihood he plays a long, healthy career isn't good.

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^ Shanahan gets plenty of respect around the league, especially for what he did with RG3 last year, you know that rookie of the year thing and molding the offense to suit his skills, you just refuse to listen.

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[quote=Mattyk;1005735]^ Shanahan gets plenty of respect around the league, especially for what he did with RG3 last year, [B]you know that rookie of the year thing and molding the offense to suit his skills, you just refuse to listen[/B].[/quote]

Wrong (as usual). I watched every game and know the stats as well as you or anyone else. I also try to step back and look at the bigger picture i.e. longevity over short-term, the preponderance of evidence about running QBs, etc etc.

It's one thing if you absolutely believe Shanny will win a Lombardi with RG before "running his wheels off" as you hear people say over and over again. Otherwise, the term pyrrhic victory comes to mind.

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I think its very foolish to lump RG3 in with other "running" QBs. People have never seen this talent before and RG3 is a very intelligent guy.

I think your selling him real short. Not smart

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[quote=The Goat;1005728]I guess my bottom line: if we continue to use RG as a running QB the likelihood he plays a long, healthy career isn't good.[/quote]

If we refuse to utilize his skill-set to the fullest, the likelihood that the team is successful is limited.

He's not a running QB, Vick was a running QB. Unlike Vick, Griffin is also one of the most accurate passers in the NFL and can beat teams on the ground and in the air. He's not a running QB, he's a QB who can run. It's more than semantics. There's a huge difference.

If Conan did his "If they mated" bit with Chris Johnson and Peyton Manning, RGIII would be the answer. The way Robert led the offense to a winning TD all by himself in just his fourth game in the NFL after they turned off his headset...that's leadership and poise like Manning, but with world class speed.

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[quote=The Goat;1005748]Wrong (as usual).[/quote]


If this were the Buccaneers board and you talked to the boss that way, you'd be outta here!

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[quote=The Goat;1005748]Wrong (as usual). I watched every game and know the stats as well as you or anyone else. I also try to step back and look at the bigger picture i.e. longevity over short-term, the preponderance of evidence about running QBs, etc etc.

It's one thing if you absolutely believe Shanny will win a Lombardi with RG before "running his wheels off" as you hear people say over and over again. Otherwise, the term pyrrhic victory comes to mind.[/quote]

You sure do like going in circles. Wrong as usual, lol, this coming from the biggest clown on the board.

They cut way back on the designed runs as the season went on. RGIII needs to be smarter when he scrambles, that's what it boils down to.

He's far more than just a running QB. He's a hell of a passer and athlete. Ignoring the fact that he's a dangerous runner and not taking full advantage of his skills would be a total waste.

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[quote=Chico23231;1005752]I think its very foolish to lump RG3 in with other "running" QBs. People have never seen this talent before and RG3 is a very intelligent guy.

[B]I think your selling him real short. Not smart[/B][/quote]

Well it fits his argument, as well as his football IQ. As usual of course.

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The Mule just doesn't shut up does he.

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[quote=Chico23231;1005752]I think its very foolish to lump RG3 in with other "running" QBs. People have never seen this talent before and RG3 is a very intelligent guy.

I think your selling him real short. Not smart[/quote]

You can't be serious here. If anything RG has shown less "intelligence" about avoiding contact etc. Or do you assume that will improve dramatically and he'll slide early and often or head out of bounds?

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May I request an avatar change for The Goat?

He's disgracing the one he's using right now. I vote for a "custom" one. Put Summo on the job. ;)

[QUOTE=The Goat;1005766]You can't be serious here. If anything RG has shown less "intelligence" about avoiding contact etc. Or do you assume that will improve dramatically and he'll slide early and often or head out of bounds?[/QUOTE]

Congratulations. You are the first person to ever call Robert Griffin III stupid.

His intelligence and maturity has impressed the hell out of the rest of the world, even Dallas fans don't talk bad about him.


I guess we should all just stop responding and stop feeding the goat.

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[quote=Monkeydad;1005754]If we refuse to utilize his skill-set to the fullest, the likelihood that the team is successful is limited.

[B]He's not a running QB, Vick was a running QB. Unlike Vick, Griffin is also one of the most accurate passers in the NFL and can beat teams on the ground and in the air. He's not a running QB, he's a QB who can run. It's more than semantics. There's a huge difference.[/B]

If Conan did his "If they mated" bit with Chris Johnson and Peyton Manning, RGIII would be the answer. The way Robert led the offense to a winning TD all by himself in just his fourth game in the NFL after they turned off his headset...that's leadership and poise like Manning, but with world class speed.[/quote]

What's the difference? Fewer carries or yards? Nope. Fewer hits? Nope. Fewer injuries? Worse for RG so far (by a long way).

Again, I keep going back to the preponderance of evidence. Stats. And injury history that's already of huge concern unless you're a total homer.

To your earlier point, given RG's talent as a pure passer, why not build a formidable line to protect him (we don't have) while he picks the defense apart, give him a solid running game (we do have with the ZBS), and let the yards/TDs rack up? Keep him safe as possible but have all the success. Win-win, right?

Again, our offense with RG (thus far) only makes sense if you can't be successful in a traditional offense. Why take all the extra risk if you can get the same results otherwise?

Please don't mention injuries to Brady, Manning etc etc here. We've been down that road a hundred times...those guys we're winning for 10 years before severe injuries...RG didn't make it 10 months.

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[quote=The Goat;1005775]What's the difference?[/quote]

I just explained the difference. Read it again.

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[quote=Monkeydad;1005773]May I request an avatar change for The Goat?

He's disgracing the one he's using right now. I vote for a "custom" one. Put Summo on the job. ;)



Congratulations. You are the first person to ever call Robert Griffin III stupid.

His intelligence and maturity has impressed the hell out of the rest of the world, even Dallas fans don't talk bad about him.


I guess we should all just stop responding and stop feeding the goat.[/quote]

Don't get sloppy now. You talked about his intelligence for avoiding contact, but it doesn't match the reality so far.

Dallas fans I know (most are friends) pity RG for the situation he's in. Running his wheels off is the typical comment.

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[quote=The Goat;1005766]You can't be serious here. If anything RG has shown less "intelligence" about avoiding contact etc. Or do you assume that will improve dramatically and he'll slide early and often or head out of bounds?[/quote]

Griffin learned, but only after shit got serious. for example after his concussion, you saw him use the sideline far better. After he got blasted after a handoff, and a ref actually told him, "you gotta get your hands up after the handoff", you saw him giving himself up once the ballcarrier was clear of the handoff. But he also has a superman complex. The question will be if he can clear that out in the waning minutes of games, and slide/get out of bounds.

If you watched the games then you know he increasingly used the sidelines and learned through the season. You also know that the plays that were called for him to run were quick to the edge plays where his burst allowed him to get to the sideline, and he really didn't take many hits from those.

No qb needs to be taking unnecessary hits, that's true, but how Griffin's hits were caused seems to be where you disagree with most everybody else on this board.

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[quote=The Goat;1005766]You can't be serious here. If anything RG has shown less "intelligence" about avoiding contact etc. Or do you assume that will improve dramatically and he'll slide early and often or head out of bounds?[/quote]

Keep saying he cant

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[quote=The Goat;1005778]Don't get sloppy now. You talked about his intelligence for avoiding contact, but it doesn't match the reality so far.

Dallas fans I know (most are friends) pity RG for the situation he's in. [B]Running his wheels off is the typical comment.[/B][/quote]

But that's just not accurately describing the nature of the offense, and from the cowboys board I am on, most Dallas fans find some way to comfort themselves from the thought of facing Griffin and the Skins every year. In fact, they can get pretty creative about it.

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[quote=Monkeydad;1005755]If this were the Buccaneers board and you talked to the boss that way, you'd be outta here![/quote]

I appreciate the mods tolerance for dissent/discussion (no sarcasm) :)

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[quote=The Goat;1005728]I guess my bottom line: if we continue to use RG as a running QB the likelihood he plays a long, healthy career isn't good.[/quote]

RGIII was injured (or worsening of an injury) 4 times last year by my count.

1. vs. Atlanta
2. vs. Baltimore
3. vs. Seattle (2nd TD drive)
4. vs. Seattle (end of the game)

Since you watched every play of every game last year, can you tell us what each play was and how Griffin got hurt?

To your team building strategy of building a formidable line, neither Shanahan will ever have a traditional drop back passing game that a 'formidable line' suits. They have, with the exception of a needed upgrade at RT, a good line for the offense. The running game will continue to be the engine and this year, expect to see RGIII in more of the style that Cousins played in vs. Cleveland and what the offense was prior to last season.

The QB who you keep describing isn't RGIII, it's Michael Vick..

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Excellent post, Paintrain.

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[quote=Paintrain;1005795]The QB who you keep describing isn't RGIII, it's Michael Vick..[/quote]

Truer words...

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[quote=Paintrain;1005795]RGIII was injured (or worsening of an injury) 4 times last year by my count.

1. vs. Atlanta
2. vs. Baltimore
3. vs. Seattle (2nd TD drive)
4. vs. Seattle (end of the game)

Since you watched every play of every game last year, can you tell us what each play was and how Griffin got hurt?

To your team building strategy of building a formidable line, neither Shanahan will ever have a traditional drop back passing game that a 'formidable line' suits. They have, with the exception of a needed upgrade at RT, a good line for the offense. The running game will continue to be the engine and this year, expect to see RGIII in more of the style that Cousins played in vs. Cleveland and what the offense was prior to last season.

The QB who you keep describing isn't RGIII, it's Michael Vick..[/quote]

From best of my memory (no cheating): against ATL he scrambled outside because nobody was open and dove to pick up that extra yard. Concussion. Against Balt it was a busted play and he scrambled downfield. Seattle (2nd TD) was a hit outside the pocket as he tried to extend the play to find an open WR. Then the infamous 4th quarter knee collapse...no description required.

The Cleveland game with Cousins was textbook (Mike) Shanahan from the Denver glory days, and in no way shape or form resembles what they schemed for RG. Not sure if that's what you've implied? Cousins was first QB of Mike's time in Washington to run that offense effectively. I think RG could and will if given the opportunity, but nobody should make the mistake thinking what we saw in Cleveland is anything like what they call for RG.

What else? Oh Vick vs RG. RG actually ran MORE than Vick. That's MORE lol not LESS. If what you mean there is Vick stayed healthy then yes...I get your point.

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[quote=The Goat;1005778]Don't get sloppy now. You talked about his intelligence for avoiding contact, but it doesn't match the reality so far.

Dallas fans I know (most are friends) pity RG for the situation he's in. Running his wheels off is the typical comment.[/quote]

Ha. Putting Dallas fans or Dallas anything near the word- intelligence. Now that's funny.

You just lost all credibility in the Redskins world. I think u prob know that at this point by using a Dallas fans opinion to back u up.

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[quote=The Goat;1005820]From best of my memory (no cheating): against ATL he scrambled outside because nobody was open and dove to pick up that extra yard. Concussion. Against Balt it was a busted play and he scrambled downfield. Seattle (2nd TD) was a hit outside the pocket as he tried to extend the play to find an open WR. Then the infamous 4th quarter knee collapse...no description required.

The Cleveland game with Cousins was textbook (Mike) Shanahan from the Denver glory days, and in no way shape or form resembles what they schemed for RG. Not sure if that's what you've implied? Cousins was first QB of Mike's time in Washington to run that offense effectively. I think RG could and will if given the opportunity, but nobody should make the mistake thinking what we saw in Cleveland is anything like what they call for RG.

What else? Oh Vick vs RG. RG actually ran MORE than Vick. That's MORE lol not LESS. If what you mean there is Vick stayed healthy then yes...I get your point.[/quote]
Glad your memory serves correctly because it emphasizes the point that RGIII got injured on plays called for a QB, NOT a running QB. He scrambled. Has nothing to do with the play call, the read option, running plays called for him, etc. Donovan McNabb, Rex Grossman, John Blech or Kirk Cousins could have been hurt the same exact ways on the same exact plays, does that make them 'running QB'? No. The notion of RGIII is a 'running QB' and his injuries are proof is absurd.

The comment about the Cleveland game was more predictive in nature, that we should expect to see more of that in 2013 but in reality we saw a majority of that when RG3 played anyways, but from the Pistol rather than under center. It's still an I formation or single back and assignments/boot options are run identically.

If you're looking at the 2012 stats (I don't have them in front of me) RG3 may have had more carries than Vick last season and even single season high but its too soon to make a declarative statement on him running more vs. Vick.

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Fact: Bob did not get hurt even once on a designed running play.

It's hard to understand how his wheels are being "run off" when there lacks even one tiny data point proving it. As PT said...the notion is patently absurd.

The Cleveland game showed how we would run this offense without a QB with the dynamic mobility of Bob AND AND AND AND mother f'n AND the same experience. It wasn't text book Shanny offense...it was textbook rookie QB Shanny offense. Lots of roll outs (cutting the field in half), lean on the running game, keep KC from having to make too many decisions. It was a function of KC limitations more than anything. The idea that we ran a higher quality offense with Kirk f'n Cousins is just GD stupid. Bob is a better QB in every GD way. The Shanny's simply have more to work with in RGIII and they utilize it.

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Paintrain for the win.

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[quote=warriorzpath;1005821]Ha. Putting Dallas fans or Dallas anything near the word- intelligence. Now that's funny.

You just lost all credibility in the Redskins world. I think u prob know that at this point by using a Dallas fans opinion to back u up.[/quote]

Two of my closest friends are Dallas fans...shoot me lol.

Per going onto a Dallas board to get a consensus opinion of Skins, RG etc, I would argue you don't get much perspective from any board. Tends to be a lot of groupthink regardless of the team, board etc.

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[quote=The Goat;1005826]Two of my closest friends are Dallas fans...shoot me lol.

Per going onto a Dallas board to get a consensus opinion of Skins, RG etc, I would argue you don't get much perspective from any board. Tends to be a lot of groupthink regardless of the team, board etc.[/quote]

I don't know who to feel more sorry for- you or your friends. Especially after RGIII schooled Romo on how a real leader qbs a team in his rookie season. That was the true definition of "sonning" someone.

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it's kinda funny to think about a former olympic quality track star getting his wheels run off, when you think about it.

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I originated this thread right after Griffin injured his knee against Seattle, and my opinion has since changed 180 degrees. I agree with Cooley and Greg Cosell that the team is too dependent on play action off the read option, and that it has stunted Griffin's development reading defenses. They argue that the current passing game (bubble screens aside) is play action out of pistol/read option looks, with isolation routes instead of more complex route combinations. Cooley also mentioned that we do very little to spread the defense horizontally, which is a key tenet of the WCO. I would keep the read option as an occasional change up, but I feel strongly that Griffin needs to learn a more traditional NFL passing game if he is to reach his full potential. I have little doubt that he has the talent, smarts, and the drive to do so, but I have my doubts as to whether Mike and Kyle are the best teachers.

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I agree with Cooley here, pretty much what I was saying in the Skins/Giants post game thread:

[QUOTE]Until Griffin is willing to play the read-option the way he did last year, coaches should put it on the shelf.

“When you do look at him as a runner, he is not an impactful runner in any way shape or form,” Cooley said. “He was last season. They’re running read option, but he will not stick his foot in the ground, plant, make a cut, and try to make anybody miss. Maybe on a 3rd-and-1 at an impactful point in the game. But it was very clear to me that Robert made the decision that he is not going to get hurt for the rest of this season. [B]So when he gets on the edge, there were a couple plays that could have been had where Robert would have ran for 20-, 30-plus yards last year. He will run for two [this year], and he will run out of bounds.[/B]

[url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/dc-sports-bog/wp/2013/12/04/cooley-redskins-should-ditch-read-option/]Cooley: Redskins should ditch read-option[/url][/QUOTE]

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[quote=Mattyk;1046102]I agree with Cooley here, pretty much what I was saying in the Skins/Giants post game thread:[/quote]Yep, he is looking more for the sidelines than for open space to exploit on his read option keepers. After two ACL replacements on the same knee, I don't blame him.

When we get more weapons and a better OL on the right side , there won't be much RO anymore

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[quote=SouperMeister;1046103]Yep, he is looking more for the sidelines than for open space to exploit on his read option keepers. After two ACL replacements on the same knee, I don't blame him.[/quote]

I definitely don't blame him either. He needs to protect himself. But by doing so it limits the effectiveness of the read option. Now that we're officially out of the race I'd like to see it phased out and just work on his pocket passing.

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[quote=Mattyk;1046105]I definitely don't blame him either. He needs to protect himself. But by doing so it limits the effectiveness of the read option. Now that we're officially out of the race I'd like to see it phased out and just work on his pocket passing.[/quote]

In addition to protecting himself, I wonder if there isn't the slightest bit of 'I'll get what's there and get out of bounds' rather than actively looking for creases and ways to get upfield with it.

On the all-22 there have been more than a couple of plays where it looks like there was more yardage vertically than horizontally but his aiming point has always been to the sideline rather than looking to cut upfield.

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[quote=Paintrain;1046113]In addition to protecting himself, I wonder if there isn't the slightest bit of 'I'll get what's there and get out of bounds' rather than actively looking for creases and ways to get upfield with it.

On the all-22 there have been more than a couple of plays where it looks like there was more yardage vertically than horizontally but his aiming point has always been to the sideline rather than looking to cut upfield.[/quote]

I definitely think so. He's simply not attacking defenses like he did last year. Defenses know this and will gladly let him have the shorter runs all day and focus on Morris instead.

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Part of me thinks the coaches want Robert to run more with it so he has more chances to work on his sliding techniques when he's scrambling. I've seen RGIII improve greatly over the last couple of games with his sliding. But, the other part of me thinks that doesn't make sense. The coaches want the players to win the games so everybody keeps their jobs - unless of course Shanahan doesn't want to stay in which he is in evaluation mode and just doesn't care so much about the outcome of the games. I don't know. All I know is, four more games and the nightmare can end.