[QUOTE=warriorzpath;972136]But, punch_it_in- I understand why you would be so mad about what you experienced - cause from just reading what you described, I feel angry at the killer and sadden for everyone affected by it.[/QUOTE]

Thank you. The guy actually died about three months ago in prison and i am happy because i believe where he is now and in the eyes and presence of his maker he finally must feel sorrow and regret for what he did. Gives me some relief.

[QUOTE=DynamiteRave;972139]Maybe I'm in the minority, but I'm willing to forgive those who make poor choices. If you lived a good life before and after the incident, I can chalk it up to some godless behavior and in time, forgive.

I think to make a sweeping generalization that Belcher is now a horrible person is kind of narrow. I've never done anything criminal in my life, but if I go out and hit and kill someone with my car, I don't think that makes me killer.

If I go out decide to mow down people with my car... Then I'll say I'm a bad person.[/QUOTE]

An accident is an accident. Usually rape is not an accident and i dont think as Panda said that Belcher accudentally shot his girlfriend. So by your own words he is a bad person. The lord forgives everyone. So i hear you about forgiveness but it doesnt make it ok. Also again - teammates remembering Belcher is a far cry from a tribute in hus locker. If i was the father of the girlfriend my God would i be on THE WARPATH about the "honoring" of the man that just shot my daughter.

[QUOTE=warriorzpath;972148]But see that's my point in all of this- whoever knew belcher and was affected by his act has a right to say or do anything in response to it (breaking laws and all of that excluded). But you have to respect it - good or bad. If you are an outsider you have no right to judge anyone's words or actions that were affected. Sort of calling the kettle black at this point - but Tom Jackson was wrong to say anything about what his team members were saying or doing.[/QUOTE]

So lets be perfectly clear here. If my best friend kills your brother tomorrow in cold blood. Nobody should judge my best friend but me and i should memorialize the man who shot and killed your brother fir all the world to see? Make no bones about it - that is exactly what happened here. Tom Jackson is so incredibly rite on with his take on this situation that it makes me sick.

Re: KC Chiefs' Player Commits Murder-Suicide
 

Having a tribute in his locker does not mean they are saying what he did was right.

It's just a way of remembering the person they knew.

I'm sure there's a lot of conflicted emotions in that locker room.

Again, as many have already said it's a tragedy with a lot of layers. Too many people are trying to make it a black and white issue when it's clearly far from that.

Re: KC Chiefs' Player Commits Murder-Suicide
 

[quote=punch it in;972154]An accident is an accident. Usually rape is not an accident and i dont think as Panda said that Belcher accudentally shot his girlfriend. So by your own words he is a bad person. The lord forgives everyone. So i hear you about forgiveness but it doesnt make it ok. Also again - teammates remembering Belcher is a far cry from a tribute in hus locker. If i was the father of the girlfriend my God would i be on THE WARPATH about the "honoring" of the man that just shot my daughter.[/quote]

But this is my point too- Tom Jackson has no right to say anything as an outsider, but as the father of the victim - he has every right to speak out against anything his teammates say or do. I think it's a big difference.

[QUOTE=Mattyk;972157]Having a tribute in his locker does not mean they are saying what he did was right.

It's just a way of remembering the person they knew.

I'm sure there's a lot of conflicted emotions in that locker room.

Again, as many have already said it's a tragedy with a lot of layers. Too many people are trying to make it a black and white issue when it's clearly far from that.[/QUOTE]

But Matty as an organization there has to be enough clarity on the situation to say this guy murdered an innocent person and maybe a tribute will rub prople the wrong way. Especially people who knew her - since apparently only people who know a murderer can judge that particular murderer. Lol. In my mind a murderer is a p.o.s - thought this was mainstream thinking. This was not Sean Taylor - ok - this was the opposite. Victims deserve tributes not killers. And you can call that black and white thinking because it is totally that. Some things are black and white.

Re: KC Chiefs' Player Commits Murder-Suicide
 

[quote=punch it in;972156]So lets be perfectly clear here. If my best friend kills your brother tomorrow in cold blood. Nobody should judge my best friend but me and i should memorialize the man who shot and killed your brother fir all the world to see? Make no bones about it - that is exactly what happened here. Tom Jackson is so incredibly rite on with his take on this situation that it makes me sick.[/quote]

I probably would be too angry if I was in that situation to care about right or wrong. I wouldn't say anything but I would be offended if Tom Jackson had anything to say about that situation(scenario you described) if I was in it.

Re: KC Chiefs' Player Commits Murder-Suicide
 

... He wouldn't know anything about my brother to have any say about anything.

[QUOTE=warriorzpath;972158]But this is my point too- Tom Jackson has no right to say anything as an outsider, but as the father of the victim - he has every right to speak out against anything his teammates say or do. I think it's a big difference.[/QUOTE]

Im just really not understanding you. We have the facts here. The facts are he killed someone and it was no accident. Why do i have to know him to say that what he did was wrong? What layers am i missing? What facts am i missing? The son of sam i believe blamed his dog for making him kill people? The son of sam might have been a cool guy when he was younger? At the end of the day neither of these two people hold human life with any regard. It is a shame that his friends and teammates have to live with that. A real shame. Not nearly as much a shame as what the victims family has to live with. No way. No how.

[QUOTE=warriorzpath;972161]I probably would be too angry if I was in that situation to care about right or wrong. I wouldn't say anything but I would be offended if Tom Jackson had anything to say about that situation(scenario you described) if I was in it.[/QUOTE]

But it would just be wrong if that happened to your brother is my point. There is no rite! I didnt know anybody in 9-11 but surely u dont have a problem with me saying bin laden was wrong? On a mucch smaller scale of world affairs there is no difference here. I said before one human life is as valuable as 1 million.

Re: KC Chiefs' Player Commits Murder-Suicide
 

No one has the right to dictate how you feel about anything in this life.

Re: KC Chiefs' Player Commits Murder-Suicide
 

[quote=punch it in;972164]Im just really not understanding you. We have the facts here. The facts are he killed someone and it was no accident. Why do i have to know him to say that what he did was wrong? What layers am i missing? What facts am i missing? The son of sam i believe blamed his dog for making him kill people? The son of sam might have been a cool guy when he was younger? At the end of the day neither of these two people hold human life with any regard. It is a shame that his friends and teammates have to live with that. A real shame. Not nearly as much a shame as what the victims family has to live with. No way. No how.[/quote]

I think my basic point is that Tom Jackson has no right to say anything. He doesn't know the killer or the killer's victim. Son of Sam is a totally different situation. Tom Jackson is just talking bullsh*t. I don't remember Tom Jackson doing anything in life to contribute to positivity - but he had the balls to comment on this?

[QUOTE=RedskinRat;972168]No one has the right to dictate how you feel about anything in this life.[/QUOTE]

More importantly nobody has the rite to take a life leaving u unable to form opinions whatsoever.

Re: KC Chiefs' Player Commits Murder-Suicide
 

I think some of you (one of you) are forgetting that many of the information we know have the Chiefs didn't necessarily have on Sunday morning when they decided to hang his jersey in his locker room.

And again, there was no public moment of silence, no vigil for Belcher, nothing like that

I think some of you (one of you) think it's way too easy to spend hours a day with someone, maybe know that he's having problems with his baby mama (but let's not kid ourselves how many pro athletes don't) and then one day you find that he killed himself and his girlfriend/baby mama...and you expect his teammates to just wipe every memory they have of him clean. Absurd.

Incredibly arrogant for some of you (one of you) to think it's not a full spectrum of emotions his teammates are going through-why did he do this? what could I have done? why didn't he come to us first? how well do I know everyone else in this locker room? did the violence of the game make him do this? could this happen to me?-and so on

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;972173]I think some of you (one of you) are forgetting that many of the information we know have the Chiefs didn't necessarily have on Sunday morning when they decided to hang his jersey in his locker room.

And again, there was no public moment of silence, no vigil for Belcher, nothing like that

I think some of you (one of you) think it's way too easy to spend hours a day with someone, maybe know that he's having problems with his baby mama (but let's not kid ourselves how many pro athletes don't) and then one day you find that he killed himself and his girlfriend/baby mama...and you expect his teammates to just wipe every memory they have of him clean. Absurd.

Incredibly arrogant for some of you (one of you) to think it's not a full spectrum of emotions his teammates are going through-why did he do this? what could I have done? why didn't he come to us first? how well do I know everyone else in this locker room? did the violence of the game make him do this? could this happen to me?-and so on[/QUOTE]

Well Tom Jackson and one of me , and others in this thread, never said that the teammates dont have a rite to be shocked and saddened by what occured. Also if you read this last couple pages it has morphed into whether i have the rite as an outsider to say what belcher did is wrong? If im arrogant for saying it is than so be it. If the fact of the matter is that the organization and team was not aware if the murder when they hung up his jersey than i personally have no problem with it. However when the information was there at gametime and they did have the facts they should have taken the jersey down.

Re: KC Chiefs' Player Commits Murder-Suicide
 

[quote=punch it in;972166]But it would just be wrong if that happened to your brother is my point. There is no rite! I didnt know anybody in 9-11 but surely u dont have a problem with me saying bin laden was wrong? On a mucch smaller scale of world affairs there is no difference here. I said before one human life is as valuable as 1 million.[/quote]

The situation is different. We're talking about oranges and apples. Bin laden is a mass murderer and has threatened the lives of every American - but we can go on and on about situations- and every one of them is different. That's how I'm honoring them by recognizing that. You can be angry about belchers actions and express them passionately but why?... and why stop there? I know there's a recent murder in every big city - why not look all of those up and immerse yourself in that and post your opinions everywhere you can about it? Those lives are just as important as belchers girlfriend to be upset about and express.

[QUOTE=punch it in;972180]Well Tom Jackson and one of me , and others in this thread, never said that the teammates dont have a rite to be shocked and saddened by what occured. Also if you read this last couple pages it has morphed into whether i have the rite as an outsider to say what belcher did is wrong? If im arrogant for saying it is than so be it. If the fact of the matter is that the organization and team was not aware if the murder when they hung up his jersey than i personally have no problem with it. However when the information was there at gametime and they did have the facts they should have taken the jersey down.[/QUOTE]

Edit: SS - usually through my rants whether you agree or disagree i get the impression that you atleast read them but in this case im surprised. I must have said atleast three times that i myself - if this were my own brother - would not erase the memories i have for him. Your totally putting words in my mouth and although you didnt mention me by name - i think its safe to assume you were pretty much talking directly to me
Edit: whoops quoted nyself instead of modifying my post - my apologies to Bucket.

Re: KC Chiefs' Player Commits Murder-Suicide
 

[quote=RedskinRat;972065]And we're back to reading comprehension......

I stated "[I][B][U]it wouldn't be a stretch to suggest[/U][/B] that an aggressive athlete that has had multiple injuries to this part of the brain may be more susceptible to rage[/I]." but thanks for the convenient partial quote.[/quote]
do you not see what you said? youre suggesting something without any evidence.

[quote=]If you rage you lose the ability to control, you're not about to recognize that.[/quote]
I agree. But my point was that Belcher hasnt been in a rage without control his entire life. By all reports, Belchers problems with his girlfriend were ongoing and, at minimum, he'd talked to players and coaches about his problems. He could have taken actions to prevent himself from being in situations where he could get in a rage. he didnt. He's 100% responsible for his actions.

[quote=][I]One of the most common effects of frontal damage can be a dramatic change in social behavior. A person's personality can undergo significant changes after an injury to the frontal lobes, especially when both lobes are involved. There are some differences in the left versus right frontal lobes in this area. Left frontal damage usually manifests as pseudodepression and right frontal damage as pseudopsychopathic (Blumer and Benson, 1975).[/I]

There's ton of research out there which I'm not filling the forum with, Google it yourself.[/quote]

whats your point in providing that information? I never questioned that damage to any particular part of the brain could affect a persons thinking abilitiy. All i did was state there was no evidence that this was the case with Belcher. Youre arguing points you dont need to argue and thereby implying i hold beliefs that i dont.


[quote=]Proving your point? No, I wasn't but if you choose to use that tired old rhetorical trick, feel free.

First you said the person needs to recognize they're raging, then you're saying "Society is to blame"? It's purely on the poor impulse control of the person, not society.[/quote]

You completely miss my point. Because society is so tolerant of unacceptable behavior, becuase society make excuses for peoples behavior, because society so liberal in assigning mental illnesses to people to explain bad behavior, people dont feel the need to control their behavior. People reason, "yeah people say i have an anger problem, but its not my fault. Chemicals are unbalanced in my brain." or "Im the way i am because my dad beat me when i was a kid." People make excuses for their behavior, and so they dont get the help they need or work as hard as they should to make changes.

To take it to the extreme in the other direction, if justice were swift and harsh for minor crimes, people would get in line. For example, lets say the law says that if youre driving under the influence, and you get caught, the police will immediately execute you. How many people would drink and drive? Not many. Im not suggesting we have laws like that, but just making the point that [B]people's behavior is influenced by what they know society will tolerate. [/B]


[quote=]Should Bi-polar/schizophrenics seek out treatment? I doubt most are capable without the intervention/help of others.[/quote]

True schizophrenia is extremely, extremely rare. the vast majority of people identified as schizophrenic are faking and/or mis-diagnosed. (on [I]a side note, if you havent seen it, watch a movie called Take Shelter, which is about the disease. Michael Shannon should have won an oscar for his performance. [/I])

There are several types of bi-polar disorder and it cant really be diagnosed until someone is in their late 30s. Psycholigists used to diagnose people much younger, but found that they ended up medicating people that didnt need it. The problem with bipolar disorder, as you alluded to, is the persons dont beleive their bipolar. Those around them have to identify the problem and basically force them to get help. Finding the right cocktail of medicines for an indivdual person takes years. I know because i'm married to someone with the disorder. I also know that there is no sense trying to reason with someone when they are in an "episode" as their brain is in a "fight or flight" mode. But bipolar people are generally non-violent (the wrong medication and/or alcohol can change that though). There is no evidence Belcher suffered from any sort of real mental disorder.

Like you, i think i'm done arguing this particular topic. As someone else mentioned, we're not going to change eachothers opinions, and, on the off chance that youre one of the small percentage of the population with an actual rage-inducing mental disorder, i dont want to piss you off ;)

Re: KC Chiefs' Player Commits Murder-Suicide
 

I saw you wrote "if my brother was a drug dealer who was killed" but I see you also gave the "if my brother was a murderer" scenario

Re: KC Chiefs' Player Commits Murder-Suicide
 

Anyhow, it's been suggested by a few of you and I agree that this thread is taking a turn we don't need.

So...thread locked

Re: KC Chiefs' Player Commits Murder-Suicide
 

:doh: