Re: 8th Circuit Court Grants Stay, Lockout Continues
 

[quote=NC_Skins;803443]That doesn't say they offered to open their books to a third party. The "audited' information that they offering is going to hide any personal expenses they may be masking as their business expenses. This isn't the real information needed to ascertain whether the owners are lying about their claim of loss of profits. THIS is what the owners don't want players seeing because it'll kill their very plea that they are losing money when in fact they are blowing it for personal gain. (See the LA Dodgers for a prime example) Now, most owners aren't going to go all out like the McCourts but I will bet you my life that owners do use their business stuff for personal use and write it off as a "business expense". In fact, every owner I know in America does this. Goes back to my idea that you can't expect the players to take cuts all because you run your business horribly.
[/quote]

It would have most likely been audited by a public firm, companies which ever since the fall of Arthur Anderson and Enron are under intense scrutiny (which is an understatement) to audit statements correctly. They already know 99% of the tricks companies use to either inflate earnings for stock purposes or report losses for tax purposes.
[quote]
What's amazing, and what shows the absolute distrust the players have for the owners, is that the NFL offered the players to have an independent auditor -- to be determined by both sides -- study the audited financial statements. The independent auditor would have studied the statements, then reported to the union the year-by-year profit-and-loss statements for each team. Theoretically, that would have shown whether teams were becoming less profitable in the past two or three years, a core argument of the ownership.

Read more: [url=http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/peter_king/03/11/fallout.from.decision/index.html#ixzz1MkcLBeYH]Full access to financial statements at core of NFL labor issues - Peter King - SI.com[/url][/quote]

In short if the owners try to pull a fast one it would most likely be discovered by the auditors and corrected. Remember these aren't the accountants employed by the teams or the NFL. This would be done by an outside firm that would be putting it's reputation on the line in the interest of providing accurate financial reports.

And also remember this is a very public case thats being watched closely by the government, no accounting firm in their right mind is going to help the owners, or the players for that matter, cook the books.

Bottom line I would fully expect the third party audits to be accurate. What I wouldn't trust is the players getting their hands on these reports and not trying to toy around with the numbers to help their case. As has been said before the players are obsessed with obtaining leverage, as are the owners but the players seem to be under more pressure, and pressure is one of the key motivators when it comes to potential fraud.

Re: 8th Circuit Court Grants Stay, Lockout Continues
 

They didn't exactly offer to open the books. They offered to open a couple of pages of the book. Pages that likely didn't answer the players' questions

Re: 8th Circuit Court Grants Stay, Lockout Continues
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;803341]I imagine that you are quite capable of the math, but I guess the off season is ripe for mathematics

59% of 9B = 5.31Bill
53% of 10B = 5.3Bill

59% of 10B = 5.9Bill
53% of 11B = 5.83Bill

59% of 11B = 6.49Bill
53% of 12B = 6.36Bill

etc
extra credit
(suppose the additional 1b credit was issued then what % are we talking about)
start at 9B, subtract 2B = 7B (note the NFL has moved off the 2B number)
now use 59% (as that is the % after the exemption) = 4.13B
now find new % (4.13B/9B)*100 = 47% (approx)
that is the % the NFL initially asked the players to accept using the TGR system.

or something along those lines.[/quote]

Let's recap...if they players take the 59% proposal, they are getting the short end of the stick compared to the last CBA...if the players take the 53% they care getting screwed in the long run compared to the 59% proposal. On top of that they can't look at the books and If they don't take any deal they get locked out.


Sounds like the players are #winning.

CRedskinsRule, what would you do differently from the players?

Re: 8th Circuit Court Grants Stay, Lockout Continues
 

[quote=Dirtbag59;803448]In short if the owners try to pull a fast one it would most likely be discovered by the auditors and corrected. Remember these aren't the accountants employed by the teams or the NFL. This would be done by an outside firm that would be putting it's reputation on the line in the interest of providing accurate financial reports.
[/quote]


You still aren't getting it. You obviously don't understand what a "audited" version of their books is, but they are basically offering a watered down version of their numbers that will not show any improper financial entries.

Something like this.

Revenue : $900 million
Player Cost: $285 million
Business Costs: $600 million
----------------------------------------------
Profit: 15 million

From this, you can't tell diddly squat about those "business expenses". You know that trip he took his private jet overseas with for a vacation? Yup, wrote it off as a "business trip" since he had a business meeting for 1 hour out of the 2 weeks he was there.

It's stuff like that are being hidden in "audited" numbers that the players want to see, and they have that right to see it if they are being asked to cut 1 billion from their payroll.


edit: D. Smith (and other players) have said they have gotten more information about the teams financial data from the Wall Street Journal reports than they have from the teams themselves. Again, I say open your books (unedited and unaudited) to a 3rd party and let them decide.

Re: 8th Circuit Court Grants Stay, Lockout Continues
 

There are things called income statements, balance sheets, statement of retained earnings, and statement of cash flows.

That is what the audit would probably tell them.

Re: 8th Circuit Court Grants Stay, Lockout Continues
 

[quote=SirClintonPortis;803466]There are things called income statements, balance sheets, statement of retained earnings, and statement of cash flows.

That is what the audit would probably tell them.[/quote]

Right hypothetically they should be giving the third party access to information that they won't let the NFLPA see for themselves. From that the Third Party should determine weather or not the records are accurate and not a repeat of Mike Browns "General Manager Bonus" or the Eagles Owner $7 million salary being counted as a general expense.

Maybe I need to look into this more as I can't find an article that says either or, but what I'm hearing the third party would be able to see the details while the NFLPA would have to settle for the basic summary.

[quote]For months, the NFL has refused to provide the players’ union with financial information. Now, the league has offered to crack the books open, [B]but the NFLPA wants the information to be fully disclosed[/B].

In our view, the union wants too much.

Per a league source (some of this has been reported elsewhere, including by Albert Breer of NFL Network), the league offered on Tuesday to provide collective profitability information over the past five years, [B]and to have that information verified by an independent, mutually-selected firm.[/B] The league also offered to identify the number of teams that have experienced reduced profits.[/quote]

Maybe I'm reading it wrong but having information verified in accounting usually means seeing the source documents. Receipts, expense reports, etc.

[QUOTE=saden1;803453]Let's recap...if they players take the 59% proposal, they are getting the short end of the stick compared to the last CBA...if the players take the 53% they care getting screwed in the long run compared to the 59% proposal. On top of that they can't look at the books and If they don't take any deal they get locked out.


Sounds like the players are #winning.

CRedskinsRule, what would you do differently from the players?[/QUOTE]

I don't understand your first part. The 59/53 numbers are from the 2006 CBA. The owners refer to 59 because it makes the players side nearly 60%. The players use the 53 because they want the whole pot considered. I would say when owners of a business are accepting less than half of their businesses revenue that is a win for the employees(players). that isn't all the employees either coaches league officials, team staff, all come fro the owners half as well.

As for what I would do if I were a player. First as NC_SKINS points out, I really can't imagine that bargaining position. But since you asked, I will give it a shot.

1) hire a corporate lawyer who is skilled in negotiating not a diehard litigator. [The time for that was as soon as the owners opted out]

2). Focus on positive messages and positive results. For example, rather than harping on not getting 10 years of data, refer to data shared as a good start, but more would be better.

3). Be ready to respond to an owner bullet list with specific alternatives.

4). Lose the high strung rhetoric, for example refer to the owners march 11th as a disappointment but certainly now we can have a dialogue. Not "its the worst offer in the history of sports". That simply creates untenable positions on both sides.

5). Knowing the owners were intent on locking us out, prep the players for that fact and in the end I may still have decertified like they did, but I would have been in intense dialogue before march and if necessary making very frequent public calls for negotiations. Including times places and set asides to meet.

6). And in the end I would be prepared to compromise and make sure that the union members got a) the best deal that avoided a long lockout and b) not incite them but help them understand the realities and benefits to avoiding lockout/litigation. Yes the most high paid players might balk but a cash floor, better health and a minimal reduction of the salary cap could and would be sold to the bulk of the players as a better deal. I would take a tough stance on 18 games not included at all, tough stances on many non cash but quality of life issues such as OTAs, voluntary work outs etc.

Hope that makes sense.

And on #5 above, I would certainly have enlisted the FMRC long before, and if the owners weren't responsive I would have pushed for the FRMC to find or declare an impasse and have it on record for any litigation to follow. If the FRMC had formally found that the NFL was not bargaining in good faith the positions now would be much different.

And just for fun if I were the owners this is what I would have done differently:

1). Once we opted out, focus our internal intentions and goals. Start with underlying assumptions that players today a) will have competent representation and as such prepare full fledged briefs, P/L statements, charts and projections that explain and show the stated concerns. Don't hire a lawyer who brought hockey through a year long lock out as a primary attorney, though put him on as a consultant.

2). Get past the past history question, find a reputable accounting firm, and let them make representative case books. Show a merged high, med and low rev team. And present that to the players early on. Let that be known publicly, so there is little reason for distrust.

3). If you believe a lockout is inevitable, again be forceful about getting to a FRMC mediation. Make every effort to have intense mediation dates. If the players are not going to budge at all then atleast have it on record that you were trying your hardest.

4). The tv deal is a hindsight thing. Chances are when being done most felt or atleast let themselves be convinced it was just reasonable measures. At this point I would obviously say don't make those deals.

5). If DSmith was a stumbling block, appeal to player reps directly. At first there might be pushback, but the owners know these guys and vice versa. Have Saturday and Irsay talk, have kraft and their player rep talk, etc. Obviously this is early on and has to be handled delicately, but reach out and listen to the players side. While maintaining the message that somethings have to change, find out what non cash issues resonate with the players and the reps.

6) don't threaten lockout 2years out, focus on moving points through negotiation.

7) finally, make sure the deal is a solid one for the longterm

And of course both players and owners should always stay at a holiday inn the night before mediation,

Re: 8th Circuit Court Grants Stay, Lockout Continues
 

[url=http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/05/19/league-launches-effort-to-get-players-to-focus-on-dollars-not-percentages/]League launches effort to get players to focus on dollars, not percentages | ProFootballTalk[/url]


[url=http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/05/19/league-finds-no-improper-lockout-contact/]League finds no improper lockout contact | ProFootballTalk[/url]

Re: 8th Circuit Court Grants Stay, Lockout Continues
 

[quote=Dirtbag59;803469]Right hypothetically they should be giving the third party access to information that they won't let the NFLPA see for themselves. From that the Third Party should determine weather or not the records are accurate and not a repeat of Mike Browns "General Manager Bonus" or the Eagles Owner $7 million salary being counted as a general expense.

Maybe I need to look into this more as I can't find an article that says either or, but what I'm hearing the third party would be able to see the details while the NFLPA would have to settle for the basic summary.



Maybe I'm reading it wrong but having information verified in accounting usually means seeing the source documents. Receipts, expense reports, etc.[/quote]You won't know the nitty gritty until you learn the basics of accounting wholesale, like I have. I'm no expert, but I do have some sense of what they the players will and certain tricks that can change up the numbers a bit see.

There are two branches of accounting. [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_accountancy"]Financial accouting[/URL] is the branch of in which the accountants prepare statements for [I]public[/I] viewing.

Then there is [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Management_accounting"]managerial accouting[/URL], which is intended to be viewed only within the company. What is in the managerial accounting books are what the players want to see.

I actually will doubt they'll see the actual receipts, just that the statements will match whatever is being claimed. However, since it's third party, there is at least [I]some[/I] incentive to not fudge too much.

Re: 8th Circuit Court Grants Stay, Lockout Continues
 

[quote=SirClintonPortis;803722][B]You won't know the nitty gritty until you learn the basics of accounting wholesale[/B], like I have. I'm no expert, but I do have some sense of what they the players will and certain tricks that can change up the numbers a bit see.

There are two branches of accounting. [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_accountancy"]Financial accouting[/URL] is the branch of in which the accountants prepare statements for [I]public[/I] viewing.

Then there is [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Management_accounting"]managerial accouting[/URL], which is intended to be viewed only within the company. What is in the managerial accounting books are what the players want to see.

I actually will doubt they'll see the actual receipts, just that the statements will match whatever is being claimed. However, since it's third party, there is at least [I]some[/I] incentive to not fudge too much.[/quote]

You do realize I was an Acccounting Major at one point right? :D And I'll have you know I got an A in both Survey and Financial Accounting, a B in Managerial but still. And I mean sure I took Survey after Financial to boost my GPA but thats NOT THE POINT HERE SCP. Don't make me go passive aggressive on you again because I'll do it. I swear.

Re: 8th Circuit Court Grants Stay, Lockout Continues
 

[url=http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=6570486]MLB, NBA, NHL unions file brief in lockout suit - ESPN[/url]

With the NHL owners supporting the NFL owners, you knew this was going to happen...lol

Re: 8th Circuit Court Grants Stay, Lockout Continues
 

One of my closest friends is a NY Jets fan and season ticket holder. Over the course of the next 6 months, the Jets will be taking $342/month out of his checking account. He'll get a refund if there's no season, but still, that's freaking ridiculous. The owners lockout the players, then proceed to rake the fans for ticket money?? How does that make any sense? Greedy SOB's.

Re: 8th Circuit Court Grants Stay, Lockout Continues
 

[quote=GMScud;803906]One of my closest friends is a NY Jets fan and season ticket holder. Over the course of the next 6 months, the Jets will be taking $342/month out of his checking account. He'll get a refund if there's no season, but still, that's freaking ridiculous. The owners lockout the players, then proceed to rake the fans for ticket money?? How does that make any sense? Greedy SOB's.[/quote]

Because fans allow it. Now owners get to make interest off that money they are collecting from the fans. They say there is a sucker born every minute, and NFL fans prove that statement to be correct.

Re: 8th Circuit Court Grants Stay, Lockout Continues
 

[quote=NC_Skins;803908]Because fans allow it. Now owners get to make interest off that money they are collecting from the fans. They say there is a sucker born every minute, and NFL fans prove that statement to be correct.[/quote]


....does that include you?

Re: 8th Circuit Court Grants Stay, Lockout Continues
 

[quote=Giantone;803910]....does that include you?[/quote]


Hell no....lol

1) not buying season tickets
2) not buying NFL ticket (dont even have direct TV)
3) not buying gear


So I'm doing my part. :P If I were a season ticket holder, I certainly would not pay them my invoice with a lockout in progress.

Re: 8th Circuit Court Grants Stay, Lockout Continues
 

[quote=NC_Skins;803912]Hell no....lol

1) not buying season tickets
2) not buying NFL ticket (dont even have direct TV)
3) not buying gear


[B]So I'm doing my part. :P If I were a season ticket holder, I certainly would not pay them my invoice with a lockout in progress.[/B][/quote]

Unfortunately, someone else probably would. They would just cancel your subscription and say "Fine, will the next wise investor please step forward!" [Please note: the invisible sarcasm font was on for "wise investor"].

Re: 8th Circuit Court Grants Stay, Lockout Continues
 

[quote=NC_Skins;803912]Hell no....lol

1) not buying season tickets
2) not buying NFL ticket (dont even have direct TV)
3) not buying gear


So I'm doing my part. :P If I were a season ticket holder, I certainly would not pay them my invoice with a lockout in progress.[/quote]


Well, you probably didn't buy season tickets before. Did you have NFL Ticket before, or direct TV? So, mostly they are losing the revenue from any gear you might buy, specifically the net profit of anything you might buy.

I see Snyder and Jones trembling in their accounting shoes now :cheeky-sm

Re: 8th Circuit Court Grants Stay, Lockout Continues
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;803922]Well, you probably didn't buy season tickets before. Did you have NFL Ticket before, or direct TV? So, mostly they are losing the revenue from any gear you might buy, specifically the net profit of anything you might buy.

I see Snyder and Jones trembling in their accounting shoes now :cheeky-sm[/quote]

Actually I think DirectTV has already paid the NFL. It's hard to imagine them not collecting on the Sunday Ticket subscriptions after giving the NFL so much up front for the rights.

Re: 8th Circuit Court Grants Stay, Lockout Continues
 

I have a question that I hope someone here can answer. If the 8th DCofA upholds its stay, and the lockout continues, can the NFLPA re-decertify at the 6month mark which the CBA speaks of, and invalidate the NFL's claim of a sham? I would think so. Then if the NFL can't argue sham, they could no longer lockout the players, correct?

Basically, what I am saying - but don't know if I am right - is that on 9-11(or 9-12 since 9-11 is a Sunday) the NFLPA, could re-form by vote of the players, and officially de-certify. Once they do that in accordance with the 2006 CBA, the owners would no longer be able to claim sham, and thus could not invoke labor law tools such as a lockout. If that is true, and I am right on that, then all this legal maneuvering now would simply have been a waste on both parties, which doesn't make sense to me, but I can't figure out why the above statements would not be true. Finally, if that's the case, then really we have wasted 2 1/2 months of this lockout that could have been spent negotiating, with out changing either sides legal position. After all, if the NFLPA had stayed as a union, the NFL locked them out, and they continued negotiating, what would have changed legally, or financially, for the players. And on Sep12th, if no deal was reached the NFLPA could have de-certified and the owners would have no recourse through the NLRB, or the courts, to fault it.

If all that is right, and I am not sure it is, this whole thing seems even more like the huge screw up that we all already know it as.

Re: 8th Circuit Court Grants Stay, Lockout Continues
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;804182]I have a question that I hope someone here can answer. If the 8th DCofA upholds its stay, and the lockout continues, can the NFLPA re-decertify at the 6month mark which the CBA speaks of, and invalidate the NFL's claim of a sham? I would think so. Then if the NFL can't argue sham, they could no longer lockout the players, correct?

Basically, what I am saying - but don't know if I am right - is that on 9-11(or 9-12 since 9-11 is a Sunday) the NFLPA, could re-form by vote of the players, and officially de-certify. Once they do that in accordance with the 2006 CBA, the owners would no longer be able to claim sham, and thus could not invoke labor law tools such as a lockout. If that is true, and I am right on that, then all this legal maneuvering now would simply have been a waste on both parties, which doesn't make sense to me, but I can't figure out why the above statements would not be true. Finally, if that's the case, then really we have wasted 2 1/2 months of this lockout that could have been spent negotiating, with out changing either sides legal position. After all, if the NFLPA had stayed as a union, the NFL locked them out, and they continued negotiating, what would have changed legally, or financially, for the players. And on Sep12th, if no deal was reached the NFLPA could have de-certified and the owners would have no recourse through the NLRB, or the courts, to fault it.

If all that is right, and I am not sure it is, this whole thing seems even more like the huge screw up that we all already know it as.[/quote]

Can the NFLPA re-decertify? They are already decertified, how can they re-decertify if they are already decertified? I'm confused.

If the courts find that the NFLPA's decertification is invalid then that mean's those Anti-Trust suits will also be invalid as well. It means the NFLPA would have to bargain as a union and the owners would have all the leverage. A lockout is going to occur with or without a union. That much is guaranteed.

Re: 8th Circuit Court Grants Stay, Lockout Continues
 

[url=http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/blog/shutdown_corner/post/NFL-slashes-more-employee-salaries-raises-repli?urn=nfl-wp2150&active_dimension=carousel_ept_sports_nfl_experts&ysp_frm_woah=1]NFL slashes more employee salaries, raises replica jersey prices - Shutdown Corner - NFL Blog - Yahoo! Sports[/url]

LOL.....these guys are such douchebags.

I would say I'm shocked people still hand them money, but the truth is, people wait in long lines and countless waiting lists to hand these guys money. Our country has no hope anymore. :(

Re: 8th Circuit Court Grants Stay, Lockout Continues
 

[quote=NC_Skins;804244]Can the NFLPA re-decertify? They are already decertified, how can they re-decertify if they are already decertified? I'm confused.

If the courts find that the NFLPA's decertification is invalid then that mean's those Anti-Trust suits will also be invalid as well. It means the NFLPA would have to bargain as a union and the owners would have all the leverage. A lockout is going to occur with or without a union. That much is guaranteed.[/quote]

The NFLPA disclaimed interest, the media keeps saying decertified. A disclaimer of interest can be undone in a heart beat of a vote. A true de-certification vote has procedures, and then the union is barred from recertifying for a year.

I don't think that is right about the lockout, because the owners contention is that they are in their rights to lockout BECAUSE the decertification was a sham. But if the union follows the CBA clause of 6 months then the NFL can't claim it's a sham, and the whole process starts over, without a lockout in place. The main thing it would mean is we just wasted this time in getting a deal done.

Re: 8th Circuit Court Grants Stay, Lockout Continues
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;804248]The NFLPA disclaimed interest, the media keeps saying decertified. A disclaimer of interest can be undone in a heart beat of a vote. A true de-certification vote has procedures, and then the union is barred from recertifying for a year.

I don't think that is right about the lockout, because the owners contention is that they are in their rights to lockout BECAUSE the decertification was a sham. But if the union follows the CBA clause of 6 months then the NFL can't claim it's a sham, and the whole process starts over, without a lockout in place. The main thing it would mean is we just wasted this time in getting a deal done.[/quote]

Well, they had to file the decertification in the court by 5pm that day the CBA expired. That's why they walked out 6 hours early. They are technically decertified as of right now.

Re: 8th Circuit Court Grants Stay, Lockout Continues
 

[quote=NC_Skins;804250]Well, they had to file the decertification in the court by 5pm that day the CBA expired. That's why they walked out 6 hours early. They are technically decertified as of right now.[/quote]

No. They did not legally decertify. CR is right. They filed a disclaimer of interest which the media has repeatedly purported as decertification. Which it is not. By law. Different things legally. I have no read on the case-law but commonsense says the 8th isn't going to all the trouble they have been so far to simply let them off on a technicality like that. But the law isn't always based in commonsense.

Re: 8th Circuit Court Grants Stay, Lockout Continues
 

[quote=FRPLG;804273]No. They did not legally decertify. CR is right. They filed a disclaimer of interest which the media has repeatedly purported as decertification. Which it is not. By law. Different things legally. I have no read on the case-law but commonsense says the 8th isn't going to all the trouble they have been so far to simply let them off on a technicality like that. But the law isn't always based in commonsense.[/quote]

To clarify my point. Legal de-certification is an indepth process, which couldn't be done with just a letter to the judge like the NFLPA did. However, they certainly now have time to go through and file the appropriate paperwork if they so choose. The main differences, one the disclaimer can be revoked quickly if needed. The 2nd part and what I wonder, is that the disclaimer had to be filed before the CBA was expired, or else they fell under the 6month rule. Now we are eating away at those 6months that were supposed to be a kick in everybody's butt to get one last gasp of a deal done. Instead, we are watching both sides run around in the legal process, and by the time it all gets resolved, the NFLPA will be able to decertify.

Re: 8th Circuit Court Grants Stay, Lockout Continues
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;804276]Now we are eating away at those 6months that were supposed to be a kick in everybody's butt to get one last gasp of a deal done. Instead, we are watching both sides run around in the legal process, and by the time it all gets resolved, the NFLPA will be able to decertify.[/quote]

Admittedly and thankfully I havent been following this thing but I have a similar concern. To my understanding the 8th circuit or any other court is not going to tell them how to split the 9 bil, the court is just there to decide whether or not the negotiating tactics are legal (can the NFLPA decertify, can the NFL lockout the players, was the tv deal done in bad faith to give the owners insurance in case of a lockout, etc...).

At the end of the day, after the courts rulings are final and many months of non-negotiating has passed, the NFL and NFLPA still need to sit down and come to an agreement on how to split the 9 bil.

If, in the end, they just basically split the 9 bil 50/50, all this crap and grand standing was done for nothing.

One side better win and make this drawn out legal battle worth it. I think Goddell was right, this thing isnt going to be decided in court but at the negotiating table. The court cant force the 2 sides to agree.

They should just split the 9 bil and be done with this crap. If thats what they do in the end, really eff them both.

Re: 8th Circuit Court Grants Stay, Lockout Continues
 

For what it's worth. In my opinion the huge win that was out there for the players was all the non cash benefits they could get from the owners in exchange for a larger exemption. No books need be shown (win for owners) for any of these type ideas:

reduce restricted free agency to 3 years.
impose a 1 year maximum on franchise tags
reduce or eliminate mandatory ota's, even changing bonus structures so that they can't be used as hammers
increased health benefits post career (on this one, the owners would probably ask to enlarge the exemption, but it seems worth it to me)
remove 18 games completely (heck we all figure the owners through that in as a bargaining chip, so use it for best gains)

there are probably more ways too. So rather than scream show us the books, just use it as a tool- no books, ok, healthcare for everyone. 1.4b exemption ok pensions start at age 50, not 55. 1.5b, ok, unrestricted after 3 years for everyone.

I believe the owners were expecting and willing to handle that negotiation, but instead we get a steady diet of war, books, and lawsuits, that none of the owners are going to buy into as a negotiation.

Dang it, put me at a table with a bunch of vet min/RFA guys, and we will get a deal done!!!

Re: 8th Circuit Court Grants Stay, Lockout Continues
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;804372]reduce restricted free agency to 3 years.
impose a 1 year maximum on franchise tags
reduce or eliminate mandatory ota's, even changing bonus structures so that they can't be used as hammers
increased health benefits post career (on this one, the owners would probably ask to enlarge the exemption, but it seems worth it to me)
remove 18 games completely (heck we all figure the owners through that in as a bargaining chip, so use it for best gains)

there are probably more ways too. [B]So rather than scream show us the books, just use it as a tool- no books, ok, healthcare for everyone. 1.4b exemption ok pensions start at age 50, not 55. 1.5b, ok, unrestricted after 3 years for everyone. [/B]

I believe the owners were expecting and willing to handle that negotiation, but instead we get a steady diet of war, books, and lawsuits, that none of the owners are going to buy into as a negotiation.[/quote]Its really quite simple when you think about it.

Re: 8th Circuit Court Grants Stay, Lockout Continues
 

[quote=GTripp0012;804393]Its really quite simple when you think about it.[/quote]

I think there are so many ways this deal could have gotten done, and so few that lead us to where we are now. It's really a shame.

Re: 8th Circuit Court Grants Stay, Lockout Continues
 

About time this happened...

"RT @judybattista NFL coaches association filed amicus brief in support of players, asking 8th Circuit to affirm injunction and lift lockout."

I'm curious how the owners will fell about this.

Re: 8th Circuit Court Grants Stay, Lockout Continues
 

Interesting brief, [url]http://www.ca8.uscourts.gov/nfl/ca8_live.11.cv.1898.3791315.0.pdf[/url]

I thought the coaches were represented by a union, but in fact they are a trade organization.

Re: 8th Circuit Court Grants Stay, Lockout Continues
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;804480]Interesting brief, [url]http://www.ca8.uscourts.gov/nfl/ca8_live.11.cv.1898.3791315.0.pdf[/url]

I thought the coaches were represented by a union, but in fact they are a trade organization.[/quote]

Thanks for this link. I guess since some coaches are considered management, they wouldn't be able to be represented by a union? I thought I read that somewhere (or I could be wrong).

Re: 8th Circuit Court Grants Stay, Lockout Continues
 

[quote=GTripp0012;804393]Its really quite simple when you think about it.[/quote]-

No, it's really not.I'm not as eloquent typing as some of you please just listen when I say contract and Union negotiations...really are not as simple as you may think,yeah we hear things and think hell sounds good to me but remember these guys are not dealing with a game ...this is business to both sides.I've gone though 6 now at my place of work and things change from day to day,basically both sides must be fortune tellers and see into the future.

Re: 8th Circuit Court Grants Stay, Lockout Continues
 

[quote=NC_Skins;804244]Can the NFLPA re-decertify? They are already decertified, how can they re-decertify if they are already decertified? I'm confused.

If the courts find that the NFLPA's decertification is invalid then that mean's those Anti-Trust suits will also be invalid as well. It means the NFLPA would have to bargain as a union and the owners would have all the leverage. A lockout is going to occur with or without a union. That much is guaranteed.[/quote]


I know I'm behind on the discussion trying to catch up, but I recall someone here mentioning that the Players did not decertify, but had filed an intent to decertify. Don't get me wrong I thought they did, the owners talk as if they did but it was after something I asked and another fan here said the players had not actually decertified but had only filed an intent to decertify. So could they recind the intent and wait then file? or was the other fan incorrect and they Players did decertify?

Re: 8th Circuit Court Grants Stay, Lockout Continues
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;804248]The NFLPA disclaimed interest, the media keeps saying decertified. A disclaimer of interest can be undone in a heart beat of a vote. A true de-certification vote has procedures, and then the union is barred from recertifying for a year.

I don't think that is right about the lockout, because the owners contention is that they are in their rights to lockout BECAUSE the decertification was a sham. But if the union follows the CBA clause of 6 months then the NFL can't claim it's a sham, and the whole process starts over, without a lockout in place. The main thing it would mean is we just wasted this time in getting a deal done.[/quote]

The only question I would have is would the Owners have a claim of damage? Loss of revenue, Attorney's costs due to what the players have done?

Re: 8th Circuit Court Grants Stay, Lockout Continues
 

Just watching NFL Network and god I'm soo tired of yet another owner or CEO or whoever saying .... " We need to get back to the negotiations table." So what is the problem? It seems that the owners are all saying we need to get to the negotiations table and everytime I hear from the players side it's all about whatever happens June 3rd or June 6th.

So why can't the Players tell their reps to get at the table and keep trying? I mean if they are cable of getting something done then all the law suits could be dropped.

Damn players. ;)

Re: 8th Circuit Court Grants Stay, Lockout Continues
 

[quote=SBXVII;804499]The only question I would have is would the Owners have a claim of damage? Loss of revenue, Attorney's costs due to what the players have done?[/quote]

No way no how. They in fact locked their own income out by their own doing. There is no way in hell they could make a claim like that. Their revenue loss is squarely on their own accord.