Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

[IMG]http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/mykraine-meme.jpg[/IMG]





[SIZE="1"]I know, substitute "Crimea" for "Ukraine"....[/SIZE]

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

[quote=Chico23231;1061694]I admit, that was a little much Ivan Walton[/quote]

I didnt LOL.
So what is it?
US Marines in the Ukraine or not?
Spare me the waffles.

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

[quote=RedskinRat;1061703][IMG]http://scontent-a-sjc.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/t1/1970676_599373716821484_689474878_n.jpg[/IMG][/quote]

jpeg spelling fail...
Credibility shot to hell....

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

Just want to clarify, the Budapest Memorandum doesn't bind any party to any action. It is only as good as the value the parties that signed it are, and in the case of the US and UK, we were just there as witnesses.

In a certain way, it's like witnesses for a marriage. If one of the two decides to get a divorce the witnesses aren't obligated to prevent it by all means necessary.

The Partnership for Peace commitments create more obligations, but even there, we aren't in a fully functional mutual defense treaty. Again, putting it in non political terms, it's more like co-signing for an adult kid's car. Yes, you are obligated to repay, but only at the pure default of the primary signatories.

We want to be sure that Putin isn't going Stalin/Hitler as he gets older, but nothing that's happened should cause us to put our forces on the ground.

All that said, I think it's hilarious that a guy like AW who will balk at the most minor military cutbacks will say that 1 billion dollars in support of Ukraine won't do nothing. Pretty sure they wouldn't spend the first 10Million on sending the Thunderbirds on a tour, they probably would actually reinforce their defenses and economic infrastructure.

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1061709]Just want to clarify, the Budapest Memorandum doesn't bind any party to any action. It is only as good as the value the parties that signed it are, and in the case of the US and UK, we were just there as witnesses.

In a certain way, it's like witnesses for a marriage. If one of the two decides to get a divorce the witnesses aren't obligated to prevent it by all means necessary.

The Partnership for Peace commitments create more obligations, but even there, we aren't in a fully functional mutual defense treaty. Again, putting it in non political terms, it's more like co-signing for an adult kid's car. Yes, you are obligated to repay, but only at the pure default of the primary signatories.

We want to be sure that Putin isn't going Stalin/Hitler as he gets older, but nothing that's happened should cause us to put our forces on the ground.

All that said, I think it's hilarious that a guy like AW who will balk at the most minor military cutbacks will say that 1 billion dollars in support of Ukraine won't do nothing. Pretty sure they wouldn't spend the first 10Million on sending the Thunderbirds on a tour, they probably would actually reinforce their defenses and economic infrastructure.[/quote]

That's some good info about the treaty and thanks for digging that up/clarifying it.
And your military cutback comment doesnt make any sense as I lean heavily towards Libertarian values.
The Ukraine/Russia thing is so convoluted that I would still prefer to spend our tax dollars (the ones I put in the coffers) towards the Thunderbirds.

America first.

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

[url=http://news.yahoo.com/big-power-talks-ukraine-crisis-little-progress-003521587--business.html]Crimea votes to join Russia, accelerating Ukraine crisis[/url]

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

I thought this cnn piece was pretty informative:

[url=http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/06/world/europe/ukraine-russia-tensions/index.html?hpt=hp_t1]Ukraine PM Yatsenyuk rejects referendum on Crimea split - CNN.com[/url]

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1061815]I thought this cnn piece was pretty informative:

[url=http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/06/world/europe/ukraine-russia-tensions/index.html?hpt=hp_t1]Ukraine PM Yatsenyuk rejects referendum on Crimea split - CNN.com[/url][/quote]

"Lavrov has criticized moves by the OSCE and NATO, which has suspended some joint undertakings with Russia, saying their actions "are not helping to create an atmosphere of dialogue and constructive cooperation."

This is the type of shit that is mind boggling. HELLOOO you invaded a fucking country with tanks, surface to air missles and 16k troops and your pissed about suspended activities. NATO should put some troops in the Ukraine, lets see what they do.

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

[url]http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/06/world/europe/for-russian-tv-channels-influence-and-criticism.html?action=click&contentCollection=Europe&module=RelatedCoverage&region=Marginalia&pgtype=article[/url]

Freedom of the Press in Russia? right

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

[quote=Chico23231;1061819] NATO should put some troops in the Ukraine, lets see what they do.[/quote]

i normally agree with you but i really think we should show restraint. I agree that russia's actions and statements are maddening and frustrating. but i believe thats exactly what russia wants .. to goad us in to bailing him out by resorting to military intervention.

the longer putin stays the provoker, the longer the heat will be on him and the longer the entire international community will further distance themselves from him.

he is looking really bad all on his own right now.

id let him stew in the hot pot he put himself in.

i think putin is wishing we would put boots on the ground to take some of the heat off him, accelerate the ultimate end solution (russia gets crimea) and he can move on acting as if this never happened.

let putin lay in the bed he shitted all by himself.

his only alternative is to keep pushing the boundaries to try and provoke a military response so then the int'l community will hold meetings, make him concessions to avoid all out war and he tries to go back to life as normal.

putin made a huge mistake, lets not give him exactly what he wants.

eventually after putin does all types of provocative stuff, we will have to announce we are moving nato troops, then everyone will negotiate but ..........lets make putin really be an indefensible ass for a few more weeks.

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

If true, these soldiers have Balls of Steel.
[URL="http://time.com/12563/belbek-crimea-ukraine-russia/"]
The Standoff at Belbek: Inside the First Clash of the Second Crimean War - Simon Shuster, TIME.com[/URL]

"After he decided Russian ultimatums to surrender were a bluff, Ukrainian base commander Yuli Mamchur played a mind game of his own by marching to a Russian-occupied airfield while carrying a Soviet flag in a gambit the Russian troops wouldn't open fire"

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

grasswire ‏@grasswire 48m
Russian forces have placed a minefield on the #Crimea border of #Ukraine . [IMG]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BiNPT9MCMAACx3B.jpg[/IMG] Photo by @EvgenyFeldman

Anyone know if Dailymail.UK is at all a legitimate news source?
[url]http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2579168/Ukraine-warns-scale-invasion-Russia-moves-artillery-close-borders-Kiev-security-chief-says-Putins-troops-run-three-hours.html[/url]

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1063441]Anyone know if Dailymail.UK is at all a legitimate news source?
[url=http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2579168/Ukraine-warns-scale-invasion-Russia-moves-artillery-close-borders-Kiev-security-chief-says-Putins-troops-run-three-hours.html]Russian Army masses troops and missile launchers on Ukraine border | Mail Online[/url][/quote]

It's hardly the NY Times, but it's far from being the NY Post. I read the online version every day, mainly for the amusing stories.

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

[URL="http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/03/13/world/europe/russia-operations-map.html?_r=0"]http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/03/13/world/europe/russia-operations-map.html?_r=0[/URL]

So, while I doubt Russia would really invade, at what point - if any - would you support use of US Force?

a) as soon as the tanks roll in
b) if tanks took over Kiev
c) if Russia held war games on the Polish border
d) never would support US forces there

Also, if you support any intervention, what's the most you would support?
a) drone surveillance
b) no fly zone over western Ukraine
c) no fly zone over all of Ukraine, UN or Nato force "peacekeepers" in Kiev
d) full protection assurances that Ukraine remains independent and sovereign

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1063818][URL="http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/03/13/world/europe/russia-operations-map.html?_r=0"]http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/03/13/world/europe/russia-operations-map.html?_r=0[/URL]

So, while I doubt Russia would really invade, at what point - if any - would you support use of US Force?

a) as soon as the tanks roll in
b) if tanks took over Kiev
c) if Russia held war games on the Polish border
d) never would support US forces there

Also, if you support any intervention, what's the most you would support?
a) drone surveillance
b) no fly zone over western Ukraine
c) no fly zone over all of Ukraine, UN or Nato force "peacekeepers" in Kiev
d) full protection assurances that Ukraine remains independent and sovereign[/quote]

US answer:

e) moment US finds out American Corporations can get richer with US invasion.

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

you need a full plan. you can't send guys in without an end game, that's what makes a quagmire.

what's the exit plan if we go in? invade russia? bomb moscow? how far are they going to go? it's pointless to put in peacekeepers if they end up getting shot at, cause then you need to commit to a full ground war or pull them out, say "my bad" and let the country get steamrolled.

the best bet is to set up independent enegry (shale) and export it to undermine their economy, which is based on high price point oil. that takes away the most direct control they have over neighboring countries and makes it very difficult to keep people happy/services running/the military on a war footing.

a shooting war is the worst thing that could happen. surveillance and intelligence sharing is fine, making sure the ukranians have high end StA and AT weapons is a good precaution (as that's the cheapest way to destroy the highest $$ worth of their military), and using it as an excuse to set up missile defense and an air base in poland could be a useful chip in getting them to de-escalate (which can be tied to abandoning those projects).

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

also the russians have to put troops in kursk and belgorod, as if a war broke out, that's an easy and unobstructed 300 mile path straight to moscow. that's part of why they want the ukraine as a puppet state, this is all about putin's 1980's cold war strategic planning mindset... i guess. maybe he's gone full retard.

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

[url=http://www.rappler.com/world/regions/europe/53109-50,000-protest-crimea-action-in-moscow]50,000 protest Crimea action in Moscow[/url]


Russians protesting in Moscow. Lots of them.



Meanwhile, Russian forces are on the move in Ukraine.

[url=http://mfa.gov.ua/en/press-center/news/19559-zajava-mzs-ukrajini-u-zvjazku-z-visadkoju-15-bereznya-desantu-zbrojnih-sil-rf-v-khersonsykij-oblasti]Statement of the MFA of Ukraine with respect to assault landing of the Russian Armed Forces in the Kherson region on March 15 - News - MFA of Ukraine[/url]

I would be shocked if this doesn't end either with an east/west Ukraine or a Russian puppet state for the whole of Ukraine.

So how does Pres Obama not attend this meeting?

Obama national security aides meet to discuss Ukraine [url]http://t.co/uF5GdgzOiC[/url]

I also don't get that the media is far more focused on the missing plane then one country invading another.

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1064232]So how does Pres Obama not attend this meeting?

Obama national security aides meet to discuss Ukraine [url=http://t.co/uF5GdgzOiC]Obama national security aides meet to discuss Ukraine | Reuters[/url]

I also don't get that the media is far more focused on the missing plane then one country invading another.[/quote]

All about ratings and "clicks". Sad world for sure

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

The missing plane has mystery about it. The Ukraine situation has the potential to make people think about world politics and how much nations lie to their own people to maintain control.

About 93% of Crimeans who took part in referendum voted for joining Russia - exit polls [url]http://t.co/pdyGEddhmN[/url]

Of course there was no option not to secede. Seems legit.

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

[url=http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26630062]BBC News - Ukraine crisis: Putin signs Russia-Crimea treaty[/url]

Russia annexing Crimea.


China withdraws support.

[url=http://www.voanews.com/content/china-splits-with-russia-over-ukraine/1873418.html]China Splits with Russia Over Ukraine[/url]

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1064310]About 93% of Crimeans who took part in referendum voted for joining Russia - exit polls [url=http://t.co/pdyGEddhmN]95.7% of Crimeans in referendum voted to join Russia - preliminary results — RT News[/url]

Of course there was no option not to secede. Seems legit.[/quote]

Hey, if you had 20,000+ troops at the polls, you'd vote the way the State wanted you to vote too.


[IMG]http://rack.1.mshcdn.com/media/ZgkyMDE0LzAzLzE2LzJhL3NsZHJzY3JtZWE5Ljk0NjM1LmpwZwpwCXRodW1iCTEyMDB4OTYwMD4/77d667f4/5ca/sldrscrmea97696.jpg[/IMG]


We've seen how voter intimidation works.

[IMG]http://neveryetmelted.com/wp-images/Panthers.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://expositor2.us/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/black-panthers.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/A6_Kx8fCIAAWoEP.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://www.lifenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/e20123.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa175/Inoljt/latinos-philadelphia-precinct-general-2008-vote.png[/IMG]

[IMG]http://www.theblaze.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/cuyahoga-precincts-2012jpg-8107831f12c11856-620x614.jpg[/IMG]





I can see this same chain of events happening one by one in each of the former Soviet states until the USSR is completely re-assembled. Our President won't intervene.

[IMG]http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/EdcPc-p_UH4/maxresdefault.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://static1.businessinsider.com/image/4b698f5e0000000000459637-480/obama-medvedev.jpg[/IMG]

[url=http://www.businessinsider.com/whoops-president-obama-caught-on-mic-telling-russian-president-that-things-will-change-after-he-wins-re-election-2012-3]WHOOPS: President Obama Caught On Mic Telling Russian President That Things Will Change AFTER He Wins Re-Election - Business Insider[/url]

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

[IMG]http://media.theweek.com/img/dir_0116/58186_cartoon_main.jpg?200[/IMG]

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

[quote=Monkeydad;1064593]Hey, if you had 20,000+ troops at the polls, you'd vote the way the State wanted you to vote too.


[url]http://rack.1.mshcdn.com/media/ZgkyMDE0LzAzLzE2LzJhL3NsZHJzY3JtZWE5Ljk0NjM1LmpwZwpwCXRodW1iCTEyMDB4OTYwMD4/77d667f4/5ca/sldrscrmea97696.jpg[/url]


We've seen how voter intimidation works.

[url]http://neveryetmelted.com/wp-images/Panthers.jpg[/url]

[url]http://expositor2.us/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/black-panthers.jpg[/url]

[url]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/A6_Kx8fCIAAWoEP.jpg[/url]

[url]http://www.lifenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/e20123.jpg[/url]

[url]http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa175/Inoljt/latinos-philadelphia-precinct-general-2008-vote.png[/url]

[url]http://www.theblaze.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/cuyahoga-precincts-2012jpg-8107831f12c11856-620x614.jpg[/url]





I can see this same chain of events happening one by one in each of the former Soviet states until the USSR is completely re-assembled. Our President won't intervene.

[url]http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/EdcPc-p_UH4/maxresdefault.jpg[/url]

[url]http://static1.businessinsider.com/image/4b698f5e0000000000459637-480/obama-medvedev.jpg[/url]

[url=http://www.businessinsider.com/whoops-president-obama-caught-on-mic-telling-russian-president-that-things-will-change-after-he-wins-re-election-2012-3]WHOOPS: President Obama Caught On Mic Telling Russian President That Things Will Change AFTER He Wins Re-Election - Business Insider[/url][/quote]



We get it. You hate Obama and have issues with minorities. That said, do you have to broadcast it in every thread not related? Also, are you going to compare armed military guys to some unarmed people standing watch over a voting facility?

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

TAKE THAT PUTIN!!!


[url=http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/borowitzreport/2014/03/us-freezes-putins-netflix-account.html]U.S. Freezes Putin's Netflix Account : The New Yorker[/url]


That'll learn them good!!!



:doh:


If Ukraine had oil, we'd already have a base established with carriers on the way.

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

[quote=NC_Skins;1064671]We get it. You hate Obama and have issues with minorities. That said, do you have to broadcast it in every thread not related? Also, are you going to compare armed military guys to some unarmed people standing watch over a voting facility?[/quote]

I hate people who interpret dissent as racism.

Not related? Sure...

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

[quote=NC_Skins;1064671]We get it. You hate Obama and have issues with minorities. That said, do you have to broadcast it in every thread not related? Also, are you going to compare armed military guys to some unarmed people standing watch over a voting facility?[/quote]

Thanks, I couldn't put an appropriately worded response together when I saw his comments. Yours was succinct and covered it.

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

[url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/charles-krauthammer-putins-ukraine-gambit/2014/02/27/93ca1b26-9fe0-11e3-9ba6-800d1192d08b_story.html]Charles Krauthammer: Putin’s Ukraine gambit - The Washington Post[/url]

I think it was a good article.

On the other hand, could you sound more emasculated then with this response?

[URL]http://news.yahoo.com/obama-us-military-not-getting-involved-ukraine-003218001.html[/URL]

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1064800]On the other hand, could you sound more emasculated then with this response?

[URL]http://news.yahoo.com/obama-us-military-not-getting-involved-ukraine-003218001.html[/URL][/quote]

From the Article:

"Obama said Putin acted out of weakness, not strength."

I just don't know how to respond to such an idiotic statement. Really. Stunned at the self-delusion.

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

[IMG]http://larussophobe.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/russiaestonia1.jpg[/IMG]

----------------------------------------------------------

[URL="http://news.yahoo.com/moscow-signals-concern-russians-estonia-170328490.html;_ylt=AwrBEiKz7ClT8TEAX6fQtDMD"]Moscow signals concern for Russians in Estonia
Reuters By Robert Evans

GENEVA (Reuters) - Russia signaled concern on Wednesday at Estonia's treatment of its large ethnic Russian minority, comparing language policy in the Baltic state with what it said was a call in Ukraine to prevent the use of Russian.

(Click on Link to read more)[/URL]

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;1064812]From the Article:

"Obama said Putin acted out of weakness, not strength."

I just don't know how to respond to such an idiotic statement. Really. Stunned at the self-delusion.[/quote]

Look back at the Obama presidency, its been like this the whole time. Basically sound bites and rhetorical quotes with little or no action. Apathetic response by the voters is even more disappointing than this President. I think he will be remembered as the most disappointing President of the modern time.

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

By modern time, you mean since 1789, right?

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

[quote=Monkeydad;1064853]By modern time, you mean since 1789, right?[/quote]

post industrial, but I would say country-wide Republican leadership at every government level (county, state, federal) is probably the worst since 1789.

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

No Russian vacations for these guys:
[url=http://bigstory.ap.org/article/us-officials-lawmakers-sanctioned-russia]US officials, lawmakers sanctioned by Russia[/url]

Re: Hey there's about to be a war in Ukraine.
 

ian bremmer ‏@ianbremmer 58m
Soft power always trumps hard power. Except when you use hard power.
#Ukraine

Someone simply forgot to tell Pres. Obama the second part.