Re: KC Chiefs' Player Commits Murder-Suicide
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;972003]Although internally, it might be hard for them to reconcile what their friend and team mate did, having a tribute at his locker is incredibly inappropriate.

If one of your friends from work were secretly a terrorist and strapped c4 to his body, walked on a schoolbus, and blew everyone up, would you hold a memorial for him at work? You knew him as a nice guy, and it would be hard for you to reconcile your friendship with him with his last actions, but out of respect for those he killed and general human decency, you wouldnt memorialize him in any public way.

its understandable that theyre having a hard time coping with Belchers actions and death, but by setting up a tribute at Belchers locker, the Chiefs have shown gross disrespect to his victims family.[/quote]

I think there is a big different between someone being a terrorist and someone having something go wrong in their mind to commit a murder/suicide. And I keep saying that something went wrong with his mind, because I don't think a rational/sane person would do what he did.

If I am not mistaken, both families (Perkins' and Belcher's) are mourning both of their deaths.

Re: KC Chiefs' Player Commits Murder-Suicide
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;972003]Although internally, it might be hard for them to reconcile what their friend and team mate did, having a tribute at his locker is incredibly inappropriate.

If one of your friends from work were secretly a terrorist and strapped c4 to his body, walked on a schoolbus, and blew everyone up, would you hold a memorial for him at work? You knew him as a nice guy, and it would be hard for you to reconcile your friendship with him with his last actions, but out of respect for those he killed and general human decency, you wouldnt memorialize him in any public way.

its understandable that theyre having a hard time coping with Belchers actions and death, but by setting up a tribute at Belchers locker, the Chiefs have shown gross disrespect to his victims family.[/quote]

Thought Eric Winston said it well

"He was a player on this team. We're all struggling to reconcile the conflicting emotions we have about a family member, a teammate and the tragic events that took place yesterday. It's hard."

But, this is like the deal with Snyder saying "I hate those mother****ers!" about the Giants in the locker room. The locker room should not be seen as a public place. They did not have a moment of silence for him before the game in front of the fans. There was no vigil. There was no public memorializing

And, I don't know why, but they set up Belcher's locker the same way they have Kevin Boss' locker (IR-concussion)

Re: KC Chiefs' Player Commits Murder-Suicide
 

[quote=FRPLG;972011]I hadn't heard they had a tribute to him. I'd have to see what "tribute" meant. But I can definitely see how it could be disrespectful. My point is that it isn't just a binary decision. You are what you've done. ALL of what you've done.

BTW...in my opinion equating murdering in the heat of the moment to executing a premeditated terrorist attack that kills dozens of innocent bystanders is a little off. Not that either is "better" but they're not the same thing at all. One takes actual pure evil...the other takes...well whatever it takes in whatever the given circumstance is.[/quote]

I couldnt disagree more with your second point. Both require pre-meditation. You dont shoot someone 9 times randomly in the heat of the moment. Think about someone very close to you. Can you envision a situation where you shot him/her 9 times? Probably not. To get to the point where youre take the life of another human being, you have to develop and cultivate a hatred for them. You probably fantasize about it. You dont think that you'll ever do it, but you hate that person and wish they were dead. You let those feelings build up in you for a long time, simmering. Then, one day when youre fighting, you actually think, "you know what, i'm going to do it. I hate this person and i'm going to get rid of them." And then you do it. Thats pure evil. Belcher killed the mother of his child in cold blood. Then, he killed himself because he was too much of a coward to face the consequences of his actions.

If he hadnt killed himself, its possible, in time, he could have repented (and i'm not speaking in a religious sense) and attoned for what he had done. He could have tried to make ammends to the best of his ability. He could have tried to do some good to society. In that situation, you could look at him as a 70 year old man and say, "you were a murderer, but thats not ALL you are. You've changed, and you've done good to your fellow man." But Belcher denied himself that chance. His last act, before killing himself, was to take the life of another human being. Nothing he did prior to that matters, because that last act was so heinous and evil that it overshadows everything else.

Re: KC Chiefs' Player Commits Murder-Suicide
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;972024]I couldnt disagree more with your second point. Both require pre-meditation. You dont shoot someone 9 times randomly in the heat of the moment. Think about someone very close to you. Can you envision a situation where you shot him/her 9 times? Probably not. To get to the point where youre take the life of another human being, you have to develop and cultivate a hatred for them. You probably fantasize about it. You dont think that you'll ever do it, but you hate that person and wish they were dead. You let those feelings build up in you for a long time, simmering. Then, one day when youre fighting, you actually think, "you know what, i'm going to do it. I hate this person and i'm going to get rid of them." And then you do it. Thats pure evil. Belcher killed the mother of his child in cold blood. Then, he killed himself because he was too much of a coward to face the consequences of his actions.

If he hadnt killed himself, its possible, in time, he could have repented (and i'm not speaking in a religious sense) and attoned for what he had done. He could have tried to make ammends to the best of his ability. He could have tried to do some good to society. In that situation, you could look at him as a 70 year old man and say, "you were a murderer, but thats not ALL you are. You've changed, and you've done good to your fellow man." But Belcher denied himself that chance. His last act, before killing himself, was to take the life of another human being. Nothing he did prior to that matters, because that last act was so heinous and evil that it overshadows everything else.[/quote]

Now we're into philosophical differences. We're just going to disagree on this.

Re: KC Chiefs' Player Commits Murder-Suicide
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;972024]I couldnt disagree more with your second point. Both require pre-meditation. You dont shoot someone 9 times randomly in the heat of the moment. Think about someone very close to you. Can you envision a situation where you shot him/her 9 times? Probably not. To get to the point where youre take the life of another human being, you have to develop and cultivate a hatred for them. You probably fantasize about it. You dont think that you'll ever do it, but you hate that person and wish they were dead. You let those feelings build up in you for a long time, simmering. Then, one day when youre fighting, you actually think, "you know what, i'm going to do it. I hate this person and i'm going to get rid of them." And then you do it. Thats pure evil. Belcher killed the mother of his child in cold blood. Then, he killed himself because he was too much of a coward to face the consequences of his actions.

If he hadnt killed himself, its possible, in time, he could have repented (and i'm not speaking in a religious sense) and attoned for what he had done. He could have tried to make ammends to the best of his ability. He could have tried to do some good to society. In that situation, you could look at him as a 70 year old man and say, "you were a murderer, but thats not ALL you are. You've changed, and you've done good to your fellow man." But Belcher denied himself that chance. His last act, before killing himself, was to take the life of another human being. Nothing he did prior to that matters, because that last act was so heinous and evil that it overshadows everything else.[/quote]

So you are saying that someone who murders a loved one and kills themselves is completely sane and rational?

I am not trying to justify what Belcher did or disregard the victim that he killed. But don't you think something really f*cked up must have happened in his mind to do this? Serial killers, terrorists, criminals, are typically pretty f*cked in their mind, but they plan on killing people and in some case relish on the act and the notoriety that comes from their heinous acts.

Some guy going insane, killing his significant other, killing himself, and orphaning his child, in my opinion, is not in that same level.

Re: KC Chiefs' Player Commits Murder-Suicide
 

[quote=Ruhskins;972019]I think there is a big different between someone being a terrorist and someone having something go wrong in their mind to commit a murder/suicide. And I keep saying that something went wrong with his mind, because I don't think a rational/sane person would do what he did.

If I am not mistaken, both families (Perkins' and Belcher's) are mourning both of their deaths.[/quote]

He definitely had issues, the Chiefs had been dealing with it behind close doors for months

Re: KC Chiefs' Player Commits Murder-Suicide
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;972024]I couldnt disagree more with your second point. Both require pre-meditation. You dont shoot someone 9 times randomly in the heat of the moment. [/quote]

Surprisingly uninformed statement. So a raging person <stabs/shoots/bludgeons> once and immediately calms down?

<point_laugh>

Re: KC Chiefs' Player Commits Murder-Suicide
 

[quote=RedskinRat;972037]Surprisingly uninformed statement. So a raging person <stabs/shoots/bludgeons> once and immediately calms down?

<point_laugh>[/quote]

Surprisingly lack of ability to read. At no point did i comment on the speed at which a person calms down after stabbing/shooting/bludgeoning someone.

My point was that even a murder "in the heat of the moment" requires a level of pre-meditation. Even if a person doesnt specifically plan the act well in advance, he cultivates evil desires/feelings in his heart. Therefore, when he does get in a rage, he's more likely to ACT on it.

Re: KC Chiefs' Player Commits Murder-Suicide
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;972051]Surprisingly lack of ability to read. At no point did i comment on the speed at which a person calms down after stabbing/shooting/bludgeoning someone.

My point was that even a murder "in the heat of the moment" requires a level of pre-meditation. Even if a person doesnt specifically plan the act well in advance, he cultivates evil desires/feelings in his heart. Therefore, when he does get in a rage, he's more likely to ACT on it.[/quote]

Then you're arguing semantics. Exactly 'how' premeditated was it?

You can quite easily kill someone with no premeditation if you snap. For example: You're having a bad day, you get into a situation that exacerbates it in traffic on the way home, walk in the door and someone says the wrong thing. You then <stabs/shoots/bludgeons> that person, no premeditation need occur. Some people have incredibly poor impulse control centers, the frontal lobe of the brain is the part that does the reasoning and it wouldn't be a stretch to suggest that an aggressive athlete that has had multiple injuries to this part of the brain may be more susceptible to rage.

Much better explanation that 'evil'.

Re: KC Chiefs' Player Commits Murder-Suicide
 

[quote=Ruhskins;972030]So you are saying that someone who murders a loved one and kills themselves is completely sane and rational?

I am not trying to justify what Belcher did or disregard the victim that he killed. But don't you think something really f*cked up must have happened in his mind to do this? Serial killers, terrorists, criminals, are typically pretty f*cked in their mind, but they plan on killing people and in some case relish on the act and the notoriety that comes from their heinous acts.

Some guy going insane, killing his significant other, killing himself, and orphaning his child, in my opinion, is not in that same level.[/quote]

There are people who are born with legitimate mental defects, but the vast majority of us chose what type of persons we will be. We are not all dealt the same deck of cards (family, money, education, opportunity), but we all chose how we response to the hands were dealt. We all have a conscience and an innate sense of right and wrong.

There is absolutely no evidence that Belcher was insane. Although temporary insanity is used as a defense in courts of law, i think its BS, for the reasons i've outlined already.

The problem with our society, one of them anyways, is that we foster a culture of unaccountability. We look for excuses to prevent holding ourselves and others accountable for our/their actions:

"I'm getting Divorced. My wife and i just grew apart. We dont love eachother anymore. Its no ones fault." Bull crap. One or both of you got lazy and stopped WORKING on your marriage. Because of your selfishness, your kids will grow up in a broken home.

"I'm behind on my mortgage payments and the evil bank is foreclosing. its not fair. They never should have given me my loan." Bull crap. The bank paid for your home and you signed a contract promising to pay the bank back. You didnt keep your promise, so they have to take your house and try to re-sell it so they don't just lose all the money they spent buying your house. Yeah, you might have lost your job or gone through hard times, but thats not the banks fault.

A man shots the mother of his child 9 times, and everyone is trying to make excuses for him. "he must not have been in his right mind... he must have been insane... he was in a rage... it was in the heat of the moment. they were arguing." BULL CRAP. Its been reported he was having issues with his girlfriend for months. They'd been fighting. This wasnt just some spur of the moment accident. It was MONTHS of anger and animosity building. By chosing to allow those feelings to build, continuing to fight and argue, Belcher cultivated a mindset that was capeable of murder. when things reached a boling point, he acted on it.

Is there a difference between someone like Belcher and a serial killer who [I]takes pleasure[/I] in murdering people? Is therre a difference between Belcher and terrorist who blows up a building because his religous/political beleifs make him think its the right thing to do? Sure. But theyre all evil and they all made conscious decisions to cultivate and act on wrong thoughts.

Re: KC Chiefs' Player Commits Murder-Suicide
 

from the ESPN AFC Blog. Just a little disconcerting after the Belcher incident:

[QUOTE]RAVENS: Linebacker Terrell Suggs returned to practice Thursday after sitting out the day before. He remains a game-time decision, and doesn't plan to wear a brace for his torn biceps if he does play, according to the team's official website. In other news, Suggs had to surrender several firearms stemming from a domestic case involving his girlfriend, Suggs' attorney told The Baltimore Sun on Thursday. Court records indicate Suggs filed a custody complaint against Candace Williams on Nov. 19, and that Williams filed a complaint against him after that. Two 911 calls were received from Suggs' address on Nov. 21, but did not yield any reports, police told The Sun. [/QUOTE]

Re: KC Chiefs' Player Commits Murder-Suicide
 

I don't know, doubt anyone here does either, what Belcher's mental state was. And I especially know that I'm in no position to understand how his teammates are coping or how they should feel

Re: KC Chiefs' Player Commits Murder-Suicide
 

[quote=RedskinRat;972054]Then you're arguing semantics. Exactly 'how' premeditated was it?

You can quite easily kill someone with no premeditation if you snap. For example: You're having a bad day, you get into a situation that exacerbates it in traffic on the way home, walk in the door and someone says the wrong thing. You then <stabs/shoots/bludgeons> that person, no premeditation need occur. Some people have incredibly poor impulse control centers, the frontal lobe of the brain is the part that does the reasoning and it wouldn't be a stretch to suggest that an [b]aggressive athlete that has had multiple injuries to this part of the brain may be more susceptible to rage[/B].

Much better explanation that 'evil'.[/quote]

Please provide evidence supporting your statement that Belcher had multiple injuries to his brain that affected the ipulse control center of his brain, making him more susceptible to rage.

Please also explain how being more susceptible to rage makes you less responsible for your own actions. In my opinion, if you, for any reason, are more susciptable to rage, then you are responsible for working harder than most people at controlling it.

As to your first statement regarding having a bad day, you've acutally proved my other point. You might not premediate murdering that particular peson, but by chosing to react to all those situations the way that you do, and let that anger bulid up inside you, youre cultivating a mindset that makes you more likely to act on it. If a person has impulses like that, they are responsible for working extra hard to control them - not using it as an excuse for when they do snap.

People "snap" because society tolerates that behavior and makes excuses for it. If it didnt, i think you would find alot less people would "snap."

Re: KC Chiefs' Player Commits Murder-Suicide
 

[quote=SmootSmack;972060]I don't know, doubt anyone here does either, what Belcher's mental state was. And I especially know that I'm in no position to understand how his teammates are coping or how they should feel[/quote]

I agree with both of those statements. I just beleive it doesnt matter what mental state he was in. he is responsible for allowing himself to get in whatever state it was that allowed him to murder another human being. I also dont think we can dictate how other people should FEEL when coping with a situation like this. My opinion is just that a tribute at his locker is disrepectful.

Re: KC Chiefs' Player Commits Murder-Suicide
 

[quote=SmootSmack;972060]I don't know, doubt anyone here does either, what Belcher's mental state was. And I especially know that I'm in no position to understand how his teammates are coping or how they should feel[/quote]

Right...and I'd add.

I don't think a single one of us is in any position to judge how evil someone is when everyone's definition is different and we have so little information to go on. I don't agree at all with BHA really but I also don't think he's "wrong". It's just not how I look at this situation. Trying to convert someone's opinion on a deeply complicated and nuanced subject such as this is useless.

Re: KC Chiefs' Player Commits Murder-Suicide
 

[quote=SmootSmack;972021]Thought Eric Winston said it well

"He was a player on this team. We're all struggling to reconcile the conflicting emotions we have about a family member, a teammate and the tragic events that took place yesterday. It's hard."

[B]But, this is like the deal with Snyder saying "I hate those mother****ers!" about the Giants in the locker room. The locker room should not be seen as a public place.[/B] They did not have a moment of silence for him before the game in front of the fans. There was no vigil. There was no public memorializing

And, I don't know why, but they set up Belcher's locker the same way they have Kevin Boss' locker (IR-concussion)[/quote]
Bringing it back to the football angle, you're completely right. The lines between public access/privacy in sports are increasingly blurred. Regardless of how we feel about what happened for those 52 other men, coaches, staff, etc. they are dealing with the immediate and violent loss of someone they saw on a daily basis, ate with, traveled with, shared meetings with, shared hotel rooms with and much more. As awful as his acts were on that day, his physical presence is missed (by nothing more than it's absence) by those who interacted with him daily. While the team certainly isn't honoring him, it may be compounding the trauma to those in the locker-room to immediately erase all signs of his existence.

Re: KC Chiefs' Player Commits Murder-Suicide
 

And we're back to reading comprehension......

I stated "[I][B][U]it wouldn't be a stretch to suggest[/U][/B] that an aggressive athlete that has had multiple injuries to this part of the brain may be more susceptible to rage[/I]." but thanks for the convenient partial quote.

If you rage you lose the ability to control, you're not about to recognize that.

[I]One of the most common effects of frontal damage can be a dramatic change in social behavior. A person's personality can undergo significant changes after an injury to the frontal lobes, especially when both lobes are involved. There are some differences in the left versus right frontal lobes in this area. Left frontal damage usually manifests as pseudodepression and right frontal damage as pseudopsychopathic (Blumer and Benson, 1975).[/I]

There's ton of research out there which I'm not filling the forum with, Google it yourself.

Proving your point? No, I wasn't but if you choose to use that tired old rhetorical trick, feel free.

First you said the person needs to recognize they're raging, then you're saying "Society is to blame"? It's purely on the poor impulse control of the person, not society.

Should Bi-polar/schizophrenics seek out treatment? I doubt most are capable without the intervention/help of others.

This conversation isn't going anywhere productive. I'm done. I feel sorry for everyone concerned including the shooter.

OMFG, it's NOT ****ing *EVIL*! :soapbox:

No such thing!

Re: KC Chiefs' Player Commits Murder-Suicide
 

[quote=SmootSmack;972060]I don't know, doubt anyone here does either, what Belcher's mental state was. And I especially know that I'm in no position to understand how his teammates are coping or how they should feel[/quote]

Regardless of mental state, Belcher is certainly not a victim. Lets be clear.

Chiefs, family and team has handled this about as well as anyone could have. Its a tough, sad situation for all.

[QUOTE=BigHairedAristocrat;972061]...

People "snap" because society tolerates that behavior and makes excuses for it. If it didnt, i think you would find alot less people would "snap."[/QUOTE]
as you said, please provide evidence to support this. We don't know near enough about the limits of the brain capacities to say what makes someone snap. The whole point of saying someone snapped means they went past a point where there mental capacity to respond rationally was there. Explain please how societal pressure at that moment would make a hill of beans difference. The answer is in that moment it doesn't. Geez. Don't make me snap!

Re: KC Chiefs' Player Commits Murder-Suicide
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;972062]I agree with both of those statements. I just beleive it doesnt matter what mental state he was in. he is responsible for allowing himself to get in whatever state it was that allowed him to murder another human being. I also dont think we can dictate how other people should FEEL when coping with a situation like this. My opinion is just that a tribute at his locker is disrepectful.[/quote]

I think you are trying to make a complicated situation into something simple.

Oh and those disrespectful people who you are dictating how should feel and cope [URL="http://www.sfgate.com/sports/article/Trust-established-for-KC-Chiefs-player-s-child-4099882.php"]just created a trust fund for that little girl[/URL].

[QUOTE=FRPLG;971966]Because to them he was a friend, a teammate, a family member...someone who mattered to them. Ultimately what he did in the end defines him but to the people who knew him there's no switch to forget all the stuff they loved.

To you, someone who didn't know him, its easy to just define him as a killer because that's all you know of him.[/QUOTE]

I include the teammates when i say people he traumatized. I feel horrible for them and the fact that they had to digest all of this and play that day. If a friend of mine or my brother killed my sister in law in front of my mother i do not think i could just go to work the next day. However i would still have to face the fact that my brother was a cold blooded killer and i probably would not be building a monument of sorts in his honor.

[QUOTE=Ruhskins;971985]Very well said.

I'm sick of these mindless babbling morons that talk about him being a coward, a killer, etc., etc. all to win an argument on the internet (you should see the comments section on ESPN.com, ridiculous).

This whole situation is a tragedy for everyone involved. Part of that tragedy is whatever went wrong in the mind of Belcher that drove him to commit such terrible act.

It's just sad situation all around.[/QUOTE]

It is sad that Belcher did this in every aspect including Belcher as a person. But before you call anyone a moron for calling him a killer - which he is by the way. Ask yourself one question. What if it was your friend, daughter , or sister? What if that was your niece or granddaughter he orphaned. Because they were those things to other people. Would you than say - oh he was a good person who made one horrible mistake? No you would think of him only as a coward and a killer. Im putting myself and my thoughts in the shoes and minds of the true victims here.
Edit: i can only imagine what some people are saying. I have never walked in Belchers shoes and for all i know he was completely out of his head mentally to do what he did. So was Rae Carruth im sure. Somewhere Belchers soul is realizing what he did and he must live with it for all of eternity. That is what i believe. Im sure the guy was slightly (obviously an understatement) unstable . However he was stable enough to drive himself to the stadium and thank his coach and gm for everything they did for him so it sounds like he was pretty aware of his actions. The tribute in his locker was in horrible taste and the true victims here are the friends and family of the girlfriend and daughter.

Im sorry for the rants here but im confused about something. What makes Belcher different than any other person who has ever killed an innocent person? My brothers best friend and wife were gunned down by a maniac killer after the man slit his granddaughters throat in front of his daughter. Believe when i tell you that the fact the guy was a psychopath means nothing to my brother or us or the family members. For the absolute life of me i cannot comprehend that the Chiefs hung his jersey in his locker and paid tribute to him. Columbine was a sad situation, but has anyone ever thought "gee its a shame about that boy and what he must have been going through?" What exactly makes Belchers situation different than anyother cold blooded killer? Imo one life is as valuable as one million lives.

Re: KC Chiefs' Player Commits Murder-Suicide
 

squawk should be spelled sqwawk right?

[QUOTE=Gary84Clark;972106]squawk should be spelled sqwawk right?[/QUOTE]

No its squawk and im very passionate about this particular thread because i have been affected personally by a murderer. So again im sorry for my rants but i just dont get the fact that their seems to be a gray area here. The man killed - he is a killer, and other than - "this scumbag took a life and hurt alot of people (including his teammates" - imo there is nothing else to say about it! It is no different than any other murder!
Im done.

Re: KC Chiefs' Player Commits Murder-Suicide
 

[quote=punch it in;972108]No its squawk and im very passionate about this particular thread because i have been affected personally by a murderer. So again im sorry for my rants but i just dont get the fact that their seems to be a gray area here. The man killed - he is a killer, and other than - "this scumbag took a life and hurt alot of people (including his teammates" - imo there is nothing else to say about it! It is no different than any other murder!
Im done.[/quote]

I think that you and everyone involved being angry about the personal experiences that you described is natural and a given but by you grouping senseless or unthinkable killings together trivializes your own experiences with it - because I think that each person needs to take their own situation as uniquely their own - that way you can honor it. I don't think there's a gray area with belchers act, but it is unique to those affected by it. Saying one murder is like any other murder dishonors anyone affected that ever had to experience something like this.

[QUOTE=warriorzpath;972121]I think that you and everyone involved being angry about the personal experiences that you described is natural and a given but by you grouping senseless or unthinkable killings together trivializes your own experiences with it - because I think that each person needs to take their own situation as uniquely their own - that way you can honor it. I don't think there's a gray area with belchers act, but it is unique to those affected by it. Saying one murder is like any other murder dishonors anyone affected that ever had to experience something like this.[/QUOTE]

I meant the act of murder - is the same. Of course if my brother was murdered trying to buy drugs, it is different than if my brother was shot senselessly while playing with his daughter at a playground. In the first example he was somewhere he shouldnt have been, and the second is strait up tragic. I hear you. The guy that pulled the trigger in each example is just as wrong - taking a life is taking a life. That is all i meant.

Re: KC Chiefs' Player Commits Murder-Suicide
 

[quote=punch it in;972123]I meant the act of murder - is the same. Of course if my brother was murdered trying to buy drugs, it is different than if my brother was shot senselessly while playing with his daughter at a playground. In the first example he was somewhere he shouldnt have been, and the second is strait up tragic. I hear you. The guy that pulled the trigger in each example is just as wrong - taking a life is taking a life. That is all i meant.[/quote]

What I'm trying to say is - what the friends and family members of jovan belcher say or do in response to what he did is in no way related to what you or your friends and family experienced. If they speak kindly about javon belcher or remember him in a different light- this is in no way related to the psychopath that you described in your own experiences. They aren't speaking about or for all killers. They are just remembering someone they knew.

[QUOTE=warriorzpath;972125]What I'm trying to say is - what the friends and family members of jovan belcher say or do in response to what he did is in no way related to what you or your friends and family experienced. If they speak kindly about javon belcher or remember him in a different light- this is in no way related to the psychopath that you described in your own experiences. They aren't speaking about or for all killers. They are just remembering someone they knew.[/QUOTE]

I clearly said that it must be hard for all of them to do that. I do not ever want to get a phone call that a friend or familymember of mine has done something like this. Also in no way am i insinuating that you just forget about how he was a good person at one point or throw away the memories you have of the good times. I can tell you that - and i believe i said this - that if it were my brother i would in no way be making a tribute to him - ala the shirt hanging in the locker. There is a big difference between a tribute and talking about the person you once knew as a good person before he committed such a terrible act. That is natural and understood. There would be no easy way to ever say " my brother is a murderer" or live with that fact. But i would have to do so.
Edit: you are rite - what i went through is different - we were the victims of a senseless act - i have much in common with the girlfriends friends and family. We both lost a beloved friend to a senseless act. If it were you i find it hard to believe you would be so understanding about the "renemberance and "honoring" of the person that took your friends life.

Re: KC Chiefs' Player Commits Murder-Suicide
 

[quote=warriorzpath;972125]What I'm trying to say is - what the friends and family members of jovan belcher say or do in response to what he did is in no way related to what you or your friends and family experienced. If they speak kindly about javon belcher or remember him in a different light- this is in no way related to the psychopath that you described in your own experiences. They aren't speaking about or for all killers. They are just remembering someone they knew.[/quote]

I agree.

Belcher is a killer in technical sense of the word, but like I said way earlier in this thread, rational people don't just go off and shoot people. Belcher obviously had issues of some sort.

Before he was a "killer" he was someone's son, a little girl's father, a teammate and a friend. There's nothing wrong with people remembering him as that and that only. Only WE know Belcher as a cold-blooded killer.

While his acts were detestable, because he took an innocent soul from this world, that doesn't mean he was a horrible man or father. From all accounts he was an otherwise decent (that doesn't mean he didn't F up) guy.

Sometimes otherwise normal people do horrible things. The only person who may have known what was wrong is dead and the only person who REALLY knew what was going on is also dead.

I hope everyone involved eventually finds peace from such a horrible incident.

[QUOTE=DynamiteRave;972132]I agree.

Belcher is a killer in technical sense of the word, but like I said way earlier in this thread, rational people don't just go off and shoot people. Belcher obviously had issues of some sort.

Before he was a "killer" he was someone's son, a little girl's father, a teammate and a friend. There's nothing wrong with people remembering him as that and that only. Only WE know Belcher as a cold-blooded killer.

While his acts were detestable, because he took an innocent soul from this world, that doesn't mean he was a horrible man or father. From all accounts he was an otherwise decent (that doesn't mean he didn't F up) guy.

Sometimes otherwise normal people do horrible things. The only person who may have known what was wrong is dead and the only person who REALLY knew what was going on is also dead.

I hope everyone involved eventually finds peace from such a horrible incident.[/QUOTE]

Actually Rave if you kill someone you are a horrible person. If you rape someone you are a horrible person. If you beat someone to s bloody pulp you are a horrible person. If those things dont make you horrible what does? Doesnt mean Belchers friends should not remember the "good " Belcher - but ill ask you the same thing i asked Warriorz- if someone killed your sister/best friend - would you be ok with that person being memorialized or honored?

Re: KC Chiefs' Player Commits Murder-Suicide
 

[quote=punch it in;972134]Actually Rave if you kill someone you are a horrible person. If you rape someone you are a horrible person. If you beat someone to s bloody pulp you are a horrible person. If those things dont make you horrible what does? Doesnt mean Belchers friends should not remember the "good " Belcher - but ill ask you the same thing i asked Warriorz- if someone killed your sister/best friend - would you be ok with that person being memorialized or honored?[/quote]

As someone who HAS been raped and who HAS had people taken from me, yeah, I can understand because people have lives beyond said incidents. Intent means a lot in regards to what people do. People rape and regret it. People kill and regret it. Then there are those who have no remorse for their actions. Those that don't have remorse, ARE the horrible people.

Oddly enough, sometimes people make terrible decisions and act irrationally without thought.

Re: KC Chiefs' Player Commits Murder-Suicide
 

But, punch_it_in- I understand why you would be so mad about what you experienced - cause from just reading what you described, I feel angry at the killer and sadden for everyone affected by it.

Re: KC Chiefs' Player Commits Murder-Suicide
 

Maybe I'm in the minority, but I'm willing to forgive those who make poor choices. If you lived a good life before and after the incident, I can chalk it up to some godless behavior and in time, forgive.

I think to make a sweeping generalization that Belcher is now a horrible person is kind of narrow. I've never done anything criminal in my life, but if I go out and hit and kill someone with my car, I don't think that makes me killer.

If I go out decide to mow down people with my car... Then I'll say I'm a bad person.

Re: KC Chiefs' Player Commits Murder-Suicide
 

[quote=DynamiteRave;972139]Maybe I'm in the minority, but I'm willing to forgive those who make poor choices. If you lived a good life before and after the incident, I can chalk it up to some godless behavior and in time, forgive.

I think to make a sweeping generalization that Belcher is now a horrible person is kind of narrow. I've never done anything criminal in my life, but if I go out and hit and kill someone with my car, I don't think that makes me killer.

If I go out decide to mow down people with my car... Then I'll say I'm a bad person.[/quote]did he accidentally shoot her?

Re: KC Chiefs' Player Commits Murder-Suicide
 

[quote=SmootSmack;972060]I don't know, doubt anyone here does either, what Belcher's mental state was. And I especially know that I'm in no position to understand how his teammates are coping or how they should feel[/quote]

Quoted for post strength.

Re: KC Chiefs' Player Commits Murder-Suicide
 

[quote=los panda;972142]did he accidentally shoot her?[/quote]

Only he knows that.

It wasn't like there was a struggle with the gun, but I'm assuming because he killed himself afterward, he probably realized he F'ed up big time.

Premeditation means a lot in cases like this.

Re: KC Chiefs' Player Commits Murder-Suicide
 

[quote=DynamiteRave;972139]Maybe I'm in the minority, but I'm willing to forgive those who make poor choices. If you lived a good life before and after the incident, I can chalk it up to some godless behavior and in time, forgive.

I think to make a sweeping generalization that Belcher is now a horrible person is kind of narrow. I've never done anything criminal in my life, but if I go out and hit and kill someone with my car, I don't think that makes me killer.

If I go out decide to mow down people with my car... Then I'll say I'm a bad person.[/quote]

But see that's my point in all of this- whoever knew belcher and was affected by his act has a right to say or do anything in response to it (breaking laws and all of that excluded). But you have to respect it - good or bad. If you are an outsider you have no right to judge anyone's words or actions that were affected. Sort of calling the kettle black at this point - but Tom Jackson was wrong to say anything about what his team members were saying or doing.

Re: KC Chiefs' Player Commits Murder-Suicide
 

[quote=warriorzpath;972148]But see that's my point in all of this- whoever knew belcher and was affected by his act has a right to say or do anything in response to it (breaking laws and all of that excluded). But you have to respect it - good or bad. If you are an outsider you have no right to judge anyone's words or actions that were affected. Sort of calling the kettle black at this point - but Tom Jackson was wrong to say anything about what his team members were saying or doing.[/quote]

I agree with you. :)

[QUOTE=DynamiteRave;972135]As someone who HAS been raped and who HAS had people taken from me, yeah, I can understand because people have lives beyond said incidents. Intent means a lot in regards to what people do. People rape and regret it. People kill and regret it. Then there are those who have no remorse for their actions. Those that don't have remorse, ARE the horrible people.

Oddly enough, sometimes people make terrible decisions and act irrationally without thought.[/QUOTE]

Well first of all i am sorry you had such an awful thing happen to you. I dont really know you but i love u and think you come across as an awesome person. Much love.
As for the rapist To do it and than regret it. In my mind - too late. Too ****ing late.