Re: Griffin's impact on the off-season FA/draft
 

30Gut, I guess we see our talent at WR differently. I don't see upside or improvement coming from Gaffney (although he could replicate '11) or Moss (who I think we could replace his projected production with a younger, cheaper player).

Armstrong fell out of the rotation because he is route limited and can't beat press coverage effectively. He's a legit deep threat but he's got to get off the line first. At 29 this year, again, I think someone younger can replace his projected production.

Our TD passes were either long (30+ yards) or short (10 yards or less). Once we got inside the 20 we had no chance to get into the endzone unless we got inside the 10. To wit, we had 3 touchdown passes last season that were more than 10 yards but less than 30 yards. That has a lot to do with limited redzone options in the WR corp.

I'm all in on developing Hankerson, he may have #1 WR potential with a full season and offseason. Unfortunately he's recovering from hip surgery and will miss most of the offseason program. I don't think we should push him down the depth chart but develop him at the right pace. I've got really high hopes and expectations for him.

Agreed on Garcon to this point about being a secondary option. It's a projection to bump him into the next level of WR, but at his age, with his experience it's a measured risk. He put up good numbers with crappy QB last season so he's not reliant on Manning to produce which is encouraging.

I read a few times late last season they aren't looking at Helu as a feature back and aren't sold on Hightower as a feature as well. They may go into '12 with those three, but I wouldn't be shocked by an addition of another RB to be 'the guy'. Not a big buck Forte/Rice type but an upgrade from what we have.

I'm not trying to push Fletcher out of town but many reports say he's looking to get around $7-$9 mil a year but that's above what we're willing to pay. Tandler said on Twitter earlier that we won't hesitate to talk to other LB at 4:01pm Tuesday if Fletcher isn't signed. I hope he is back but again, won't be shocked if he's not.

Re: Griffin's impact on the off-season FA/draft
 

[quote=Lotus;895532]I agree that there is a bunch of safeties. But the issue I mentioned concerned whether they really were all that good. The list you gave is an impressive list of "just a guy."

It may be that Shanny sees Gomes as potentially more than "just a guy."[/quote]

gomes seems like just a guy, and our safety play was really terrible, so id be okay with average.

Re: Griffin's impact on the off-season FA/draft
 

I'm with anyone against signing Garcon. Peyton absolutely made him the player he was. You could say the same about Reggie Wayne, but Garcon isn't even close to the player Wayne is/was.

[QUOTE=TheMalcolmConnection;895604]I'm with anyone against signing Garcon. Peyton absolutely made him the player he was. You could say the same about Reggie Wayne, but Garcon isn't even close to the player Wayne is/was.[/QUOTE]

Garcon had a good year with painter my man

Re: Griffin's impact on the off-season FA/draft
 

[quote=TheMalcolmConnection;895604]I'm with anyone against signing Garcon. Peyton absolutely made him the player he was. You could say the same about Reggie Wayne, but Garcon isn't even close to the player Wayne is/was.[/quote]

Garcon is not a #1 WR. We need a VJax/Colston type of player. Sounds like we may finally get VJax.

[QUOTE=Ruhskins;895608]Garcon is not a #1 WR. We need a VJax/Colston type of player. Sounds like we may finally get VJax.[/QUOTE]

He is on our team w out VJ imo but I'm glad we will have a big time WR for once

Re: Griffin's impact on the off-season FA/draft
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;895607]Garcon had a good year with painter my man[/quote]

Exactly.

Peyton is great no doubt, but he did have some legit receivers. Wayne, Clark, Harrison, etc. I wouldn't put Garçon quite in the class of those guys, but he's not a scrub either.

Re: Griffin's impact on the off-season FA/draft
 

Kevin Acee from the San Diego Tribune is reporting the Vincent Jackson to the skins is almost a lock to happen, since we will show more money than Chicago.

Re: Griffin's impact on the off-season FA/draft
 

[quote=Ruhskins;895608]Garcon is not a #1 WR. We need a VJax/Colston type of player. Sounds like we may finally get VJax.[/quote]

Yup, sounds like we're all in for VJ.

I like it, VJ is a big play guy, and RGIII excels at going deep. Could be deadly.

Re: Griffin's impact on the off-season FA/draft
 

[quote=TheMalcolmConnection;895604]I'm with anyone against signing Garcon. Peyton absolutely made him the player he was. You could say the same about Reggie Wayne, but Garcon isn't even close to the player Wayne is/was.[/quote]

[B] G`GS Rec Yds Avg Lng TD[/B]
16 16 70 947 13.5 87T 6

and that was without Manning...

Re: Griffin's impact on the off-season FA/draft
 

[quote=TheMalcolmConnection;895604]I'm with anyone against signing Garcon. Peyton absolutely made him the player he was. You could say the same about Reggie Wayne, but Garcon isn't even close to the player Wayne is/was.[/quote]

Didn't Pierre Garcon just have his most productive season [I]without[/I] Manning?

Re: Griffin's impact on the off-season FA/draft
 

[quote=Mattyk;895613]Yup, sounds like we're all in for VJ.

I like it, VJ is a big play guy, and RGIII excels at going deep. Could be deadly.[/quote]

I like VJ too, but I'm worried that if we pay him big bucks he'll be another brandon lloyd. When/if we sign VJ we better put in his contract that if he gets caught drinking and driving we don't owe him anything and can cut him immediately.

[QUOTE=804_skins;895621][B] G`GS Rec Yds Avg Lng TD[/B]
16 16 70 947 13.5 87T 6

and that was without Manning...[/QUOTE]

Team was bad but garcon was not

Re: Griffin's impact on the off-season FA/draft
 

I don't know... Curtis Painter is pretty good :laughing2

Re: Griffin's impact on the off-season FA/draft
 

[quote=REDSKINS4ever;895624]Didn't Pierre Garcon just have his most productive season [I]without[/I] Manning?[/quote]

Even with Wayne he was basically the #1 receiver. Not only that, he was still the beneficiary of double coverage with a declining Wayne. I really want that number one guy.

I don't think anyone can say that Garcon is going to be your featured guy. Can he help some? Sure. Gaffney helped. We need someone so explosive that they are constantly double-covered.

Re: Griffin's impact on the off-season FA/draft
 

[quote=Ruhskins;895608]Garcon is not a #1 WR. We need a VJax/Colston type of player. Sounds like we may finally get VJax.[/quote]

After which PFT will run a story on tampering in regards to the Skins and VJAX. By the way when was the last tampering case in the NFL that resulted in anything?

Re: Griffin's impact on the off-season FA/draft
 

Id rather take the money that Vincent Jackson would require and sign Royal and Mecheam instead.

Re: Griffin's impact on the off-season FA/draft
 

We need to build around RGIII We have anywhere from 35-40mil in cap space.

Resign Tim Hightower
Sign Vincent Jackson or Pierre Garcon or Braylon Edwards (if healthy)
Sign Eddie Royal, Maybe bring back Devin Thomas (lol) we need weapons, youth players that can run and get open, make the catch. In the draft I am looking at Ryan Broyles and Juron Criner.

Rebuild the line. We have to be able to effectively run and protect against the pass. Free agent number 1 should be either Carl Nicks or Ben Grubbs. I would also draft Philip Blake in the draft. I really think Willie Smith can step into the right tackle spot. Quality depth behind him

I also think we need that explosive runner with soft hands like LaMichael James although I think he will be gone in the second.

Re: Griffin's impact on the off-season FA/draft
 

[quote=Dirtbag59;895635]After which PFT will run a story on tampering in regards to the Skins and VJAX. [B] By the way when was the last tampering case in the NFL that resulted in anything?[/B][/quote]

I don't know, but I still remember how the Parcell's-led Dolphins signed Justin Smiley about 10 to 15 minutes into free agency a couple of years ago.

Re: Griffin's impact on the off-season FA/draft
 

[quote=CultBrennan59;895625]I like VJ too, but I'm worried that if we pay him big bucks he'll be another brandon lloyd. [B]When/if we sign VJ we better put in his contract that if he gets caught drinking and driving we don't owe him anything and can cut him immediately[/B].[/quote]

Probably imagine it would be the same BS language Fred Davis will see in his next contract. or atleast it should be.

Re: Griffin's impact on the off-season FA/draft
 

[quote=Dirtbag59;895635]After which PFT will run a story on tampering in regards to the Skins and VJAX. [B]By the way when was the last tampering case in the NFL that resulted in anything?[/B][/quote]

49ers and Briggs?

Re: Griffin's impact on the off-season FA/draft
 

[quote=Paintrain;895598]30Gut, I guess we see our talent at WR differently. I don't see upside or improvement coming from Gaffney (although he could replicate '11) or Moss (who I think we could replace his projected production with a younger, cheaper player).[/quote]I think you're misunderstanding my view.
I don't view Gaffney as having upside nor room for improvement but his level of production is useful.
And I think you greatly discredit/discount Moss's level of production.
If it was easy to replace Moss's production from 2010 then every team would simply plug in any receiver and just throw to them a whole bunch.
Moss's 2010 production is not easily replaceable and its not something to take for granted.

Will the WR need to upgraded in the future? Sure.
But right now we have Moss under contract we have a FA WR in Gaffney that is productive and knows the system and some young WR to develop.
They were part of a middle of the pack receiving corps that was held back by both poor QB play and shotty pass protection.
I would be willing to ride out the season with an upgraded RT, upgraded vertical passing game and playmaking that Griffin should provide and see how the Hankerson and the young WRs develop with Gaffney and a healthy Moss and Armstrong.

I don't see the reason to make it a priority before its turn when there are clearly underperforming units/positions that desperatley need an upgrade to aid the success of the Griffin.
And for me it starts with pass protection.
Imo there are only a set amount of effective FA moves that can be made from both a dollar and a continuity stand point to the point where a FA move in one area [I]may[/I] preclude a FA move in another area.

[quote]Armstrong fell out of the rotation because he is route limited and can't beat press coverage effectively. He's a legit deep threat but he's got to get off the line first. At 29 this year, again, I think someone younger can replace his projected production.[/quote]Those 2 statements seem incongruent.
How can a WR that can't get off press coverage be a viable deep threat to the tune of 44 catches 800(ish) yards and 19.8 YPC?
Again, I think you're discounting Armstrong talent/production again 19.8 YPC isn't a fluke nor is it something to take for granted.

[quote]I'm all in on developing Hankerson, he may have #1 WR potential with a full season and offseason. Unfortunately he's recovering from hip surgery and will miss most of the offseason program. I don't think we should push him down the depth chart but develop him at the right pace. I've got really high hopes and expectations for him.[/quote]We agree.
But every FA receiver we bring in delays the develop that much more because the incoming FA receivers will need reps to learn the offense.


[quote]Agreed on Garcon to this point about being a secondary option. It's a projection to bump him into the next level of WR, but at his age, with his experience it's a measured risk. He put up good numbers with crappy QB last season so he's not reliant on Manning to produce which is encouraging.[/quote]Tana has been the No.1 option on a team completely devoid of talent at WR and at QB yet has consistently produced at equal or higher level then Garcon.(excluding this past injured marred season)

[quote]I read a few times late last season they aren't looking at Helu as a feature back and aren't sold on Hightower as a feature as well. They may go into '12 with those three, but I wouldn't be shocked by an addition of another RB to be 'the guy'. Not a big buck Forte/Rice type but an upgrade from what we have.[/quote]I don't put a lot of stock in anything I read from or about this regime.
I believe what I see and when Helu was given enough carries the offense was effective and Helu was easily in the 100 yard range.
Evan Royster ran well too.
Shanny/Turner will go with the hot hand at RB until one distinguishes themselves from the pack.

[quote]I'm not trying to push Fletcher out of town but many reports say he's looking to get around $7-$9 mil a year but that's above what we're willing to pay.[/quote]Again, I don't put a lot of stock in the reports (our beat reporters aren't very well connected considering that every meaningful report comes from an outside source).
London is a smart dude that knows how the game works, the DMV area is great it sells itself unless we insult him with the contract he'll be back.

Re: Griffin's impact on the off-season FA/draft
 

Hey man, if things fall the way you think it would save us some big money and we will see a resurgence of our passing game. I simply think we had one of the least talented group of receivers last season and don't see any individuals who would cause a defensive coordinators to gameplan for them in 2012 if we didn't upgrade.

I think Armstrong peaked in 2010 and teams learned how to defend him. I think Moss is in a decline. For the record I think many can replicate his projected production, not his production from 2010. I doubt he has 91 career catches left, much less in a season. With Gaffney, I doubt he produces as much as he did in '11 again but he's a piece of the puzzle probably best suited as a #3 or #4 WR on a good team.

I'll put it this way, would any of our WR crack the top three of any team in our division at the end of last season or going into 2012 camp?

NYG-Nicks, Cruz, Manningham
PHI-Jackson, Maclin, Avant
DAL-Austin, Bryant, Robinson

An argument could be made that a healthy Moss would be the #3 receiver on any of those teams but for our "#1" to be compared to the third best on every one of our division foes, I don't see how WR isn't a major need.

Re: Griffin's impact on the off-season FA/draft
 

[quote=GTripp0012;895404]You know who would be a good pickup in FA? Steve Smith, the one most recently of the Eagles.[/quote]

Yes please.

Re: Griffin's impact on the off-season FA/draft
 

[quote=GTripp0012;895404]You know who would be a good pickup in FA? Steve Smith, the one most recently of the Eagles.[/quote]

He didn't do anything last year though

Re: Griffin's impact on the off-season FA/draft
 

Good times ahead
[YT]xaXRkIiKplE[/YT][YT]zCYxKp9rjRw[/YT]

Re: Griffin's impact on the off-season FA/draft
 

[quote=diehardskin2982;895641]We need to build around RGIII We have anywhere from 35-40mil in cap space.

Resign Tim Hightower
Sign Vincent Jackson or Pierre Garcon or Braylon Edwards (if healthy)
Sign Eddie Royal, Maybe bring back Devin Thomas (lol) we need weapons, youth players that can run and get open, make the catch. In the draft I am looking at Ryan Broyles and Juron Criner.

Rebuild the line. We have to be able to effectively run and protect against the pass. Free agent number 1 should be either Carl Nicks or Ben Grubbs. I would also draft Philip Blake in the draft. I really think Willie Smith can step into the right tackle spot. Quality depth behind him

[B]I also think we need that explosive runner with soft hands like LaMichael James although I think he will be gone in the second[/B].[/quote]


Roy Helu is a burner and lets remember he has the record for most catches in a game for a Redskin (14).

Re: Griffin's impact on the off-season FA/draft
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;895708]Roy Helu is a burner and lets remember he has the record for most catches in a game for a Redskin (14).[/quote]

After Torain's unexplained dropoff I find myself nervous in regards to our running back stable. Like how long until Royster or Helu underacheives.

Speaking of which anyone know who the 3rd-6th round zone backs are? Remember the key words in scouting reports. Vision and anything with the word 'cut.'

Re: Griffin's impact on the off-season FA/draft
 

[quote=Dirtbag59;895711]After Torain's unexplained dropoff I find myself nervous in regards to our running back stable. Like how long until Royster or Helu underacheives.

Speaking of which anyone know who the 3rd-6th round zone backs are? Remember the key words in scouting reports. Vision and anything with the word 'cut.'[/quote]

Did Torain start with us as a rookie?

Re: Griffin's impact on the off-season FA/draft
 

[quote=Ruhskins;895717]Did Torain start with us as a rookie?[/quote]

Denver, then out for a year, then us, I believe.

Re: Griffin's impact on the off-season FA/draft
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;895706]He didn't do anything last year though[/quote]

More a product of the overall dysfunction of the Eagles, then anything he did or didn't do.

Re: Griffin's impact on the off-season FA/draft
 

[quote=Dirtbag59;895707]Good times ahead
[YT]xaXRkIiKplE[/YT][YT]zCYxKp9rjRw[/YT][/quote]

In watching these clips I've become more open to accept that VJ might sign with us. He's a #1 WR; He's big (6'5 230), has deceptive speed, is a good route runner, and had 18.4 YPC last season. Still, my main concern is that he's just [B]1[/B] more DUI/DWI away from being kicked out for a season; and age 29 for a WR, is not young, so one could argue that his best football years were in San Diego.

Re: Griffin's impact on the off-season FA/draft
 

[quote=Dirtbag59;895707]Good times ahead
[YT]xaXRkIiKplE[/YT][YT]zCYxKp9rjRw[/YT][/quote]

When he goes all out VJ balls with the best of them. It would be nice seeing a WR in a Skins uniform getting that kind of seperation either using their strength or speed like Jackson does. I know he's gonna cost a lot of money but Griffin needs someone like that on the outside and even though I do like Garcon, Royal, or Morgan, none of them are on the same level as Jackson is.

Re: Griffin's impact on the off-season FA/draft
 

So will we be switching to a read-option offense?

Re: Griffin's impact on the off-season FA/draft
 

[quote=REDSKINS4ever;895624]Didn't Pierre Garcon just have his most productive season [I]without[/I] Manning?[/quote]

So did Jabar Gaffney. Similar stats actually and for the same reasons. They were always behind and gotta throw to someone. He's not worth nearly what he's asking. Dime a dozen guy.

Re: Griffin's impact on the off-season FA/draft
 

I think we'll address the WR, CB and OL through FA. I really hope we re-sign Hightower. Yes, he's an injury concern but moving him into the same role he excelled at with the Cardinals...3rd down and goal-line duty (TD vulture), he'll be a great duo with Helu as the starter and Royster as his backup. Those 3 RBs will make one of the best backfield trios in the NFL. They're all capable starters. Darrel Young has been a great surprise at FB too.

We should use our highest pick on a safety. Kevin Barnes should be moved to free safety, he performed GREAT there when he filled in. Hopefully Atogwe can stay on the field at strong safety. But draft one or two safeties, we need depth there!

I also believe we'll still have a wild draft day and end up with about 8-10 picks, a lot like last year's wizardry. Just because we traded the draft farm for RG3...doesn't worry me. I know what this FO can do on draft day in making a lot out of what looked like nothing.

Re: Griffin's impact on the off-season FA/draft
 

With Vincent Jackson his best years have already been played out. Once he gets paid you think he won't get in any trouble? Very likely he goes out to celebrate. Almost 30 years old. He is not worth the money. Having a big number one receiver is very overrated. Big free agents rarely work out because you are paying for what they have done and not what they are going to do. Got to be smart and pay more attention to the draft. A lot of good quality receivers.

Re: Griffin's impact on the off-season FA/draft
 

[quote=donofriose;895800]With Vincent Jackson his best years have already been played out. Once he gets paid you think he won't get in any trouble? Very likely he goes out to celebrate. Almost 30 years old. He is not worth the money. Having a big number one receiver is very overrated. Big free agents rarely work out because you are paying for what they have done and not what they are going to do. Got to be smart and pay more attention to the draft. A lot of good quality receivers.[/quote]

You can't have given up so much to get your franchise QB without giving him weapons to use. Besides, we already have a promising young WR in Hankerson and I am sure we can get another in this draft. However, everything must be done with balance, and in the NFL you need to have a good combination of drafted players and free agents.

Besides, if the team signs another FA to big money and doesn't work out, that falls on the team's leadership, as much as it does on the player himself.

Re: Griffin's impact on the off-season FA/draft
 

[quote=Ruhskins;895803]You can't have given up so much to get your franchise QB without giving him weapons to use. Besides, we already have a promising young WR in Hankerson and I am sure we can get another in this draft. However, everything must be done with balance, and in the NFL you need to have a good combination of drafted players and free agents.

Besides, if the team signs another FA to big money and doesn't work out, that falls on the team's leadership, as much as it does on the player himself.[/quote]

I agree but what I notice about the superbowl teams is what separates them from the rest is the depth that they have at a lot of positions. The best way to build depth is through the draft You can go after young free agents like a Mario Williams but what you don't want is to build a team where free agents are the main components. Every player on the packers offense was drafted. The ravens defense was almost entirely drafted. You build through the draft but you add key components through free agency. You sign under the radar guys or veterans that want to win a superbowl and are not in it for the money since they already have a lot. Signing one of the top free agents rarely works out unless they are in their mid 20's and even then it doesn't work out a lot of the time. Draft is less risky then free agency because of the money involved. Two D words that always go hand in hand Dynasty: Draft

Re: Griffin's impact on the off-season FA/draft
 

[quote=NM Redskin;895722]More a product of the overall dysfunction of the Eagles, then anything he did or didn't do.[/quote]


Not at all , the reason the Giants didn't throw money at him was becuase of his devastating knee injury and they wanted to see how he would heal well looks as if the Giants were correct in their medical evaluation of him,basicly he stole 2 million from the Eagles.



P.S.

Terrel Thomas will resign with the Giants they are very close to a deal.