Re: Ongoing CBA discussions
 

^ The owners want Judge Doty off the case and that happens on March 4. That means until March 4 the owners will inflexibly avoid real negotiations even if it means acting irrationally. Let's see what happens after March 4. Maybe talks will suddenly become more productive.

Re: Ongoing CBA discussions
 

[quote=hooskins;784841]Deal isn't happening. I am ready for no football. Or at least I tell myself that to mentally prepare.[/quote]

[url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/02/16/AR2011021603846.html]Sally Jenkins - NFL owners want guarantees no other business provides[/url]

Re: Ongoing CBA discussions
 

[quote=Longtimefan;784883][url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/02/16/AR2011021603846.html]Sally Jenkins - NFL owners want guarantees no other business provides[/url][/quote]


This is a good article and I suggest fans shelling out money to read it. It's probably one of the sole reasons why I'll never be a season ticket holder.

Re: Ongoing CBA discussions
 

With all that money that is spent on season tickets, I would much rather take that money and invest in a top of the line HDTV. As good as technology is nowadays, it's almost like being there anyways.

Re: Ongoing CBA discussions
 

[quote=Longtimefan;784883][url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/02/16/AR2011021603846.html]Sally Jenkins - NFL owners want guarantees no other business provides[/url][/quote]

As long as you just want to read vitriol against the owners, that's a pretty good read. She kind of lost me with this:

[quote]But in what other industry do business owners act so entitled to make money every year into the limitless future? [/quote]

Umm, maybe she is focusing on the word entitled, but as far as I know, EVERY business owner, and industry attempts to maximize their profits every year, and for the projected future. (and that's before we even start talking about the government's ability to feel entitled to our money)

Re: Ongoing CBA discussions
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;784891]Umm, maybe she is focusing on the word entitled, but as far as I know, EVERY business owner, and industry attempts to maximize their profits every year, and for the projected future. (and that's before we even start talking about the government's ability to feel entitled to our money)[/quote]

Most big businesses answer to stock holders so they have the obligation to maximize profits. These aren't small business owners scraping pennies to make good, they are raking in money hand over fist and *gasp*...wanting more.

At the end of the day, the product on the field are why people shell out that money. That product happens to be people that put their health on the line every week to entertain the masses. (much like old gladiators) I want the money going to those guys, not the assholes that sit in the owners box.


If they really want to "maximize profits" like you claim, then they wouldn't be handing out record breaking contracts like they did to Seymour, Haynesworth, and Asomugha.

Re: Ongoing CBA discussions
 

Some of you guys may have never heard this quote before, but in the south, they have this quote "being too big for your britches". I think the NFL has gotten "too big for their britches". Honestly, building these mega huge stadiums sounds all well and good, but let's face it, the bigger the stadium, the less enjoyable it's going to be watching the game live. That's my opinion. I think it takes away from the intimate atmosphere of the older stadiums, that were smaller, but the fans were more a part of the game. Honestly, while I did enjoy my time at my first Redskins game this year (Christmas present) I would have traded that time and those seats to have watched a game at RFK. May not have been nearly as comfortable, but heck, just seems like I would have been more a part of the game. Does that make sense?

So, with that said, I wished they would forget about building these mega stadiums and focus more on the product itself. Make sure those players are taken care of in regards to their health during the career and after their careers are over. There needs to be a better retirement plan for these players. Yes, they make millions upon millions, but I betcha that a lot of them don't know the first thing about investing that money for the future. Look, if your team is winning on a regular base, your fans are going to enjoy the experience even if the stadium only holds 12,000 people. Fans want a quality product on the field, not just a quality experience of the stadium itself.

Re: Ongoing CBA discussions
 

[quote=NC_Skins;784901]Most big businesses answer to stock holders so they have the obligation to maximize profits. These aren't small business owners scraping pennies to make good, they are raking in money hand over fist and *gasp*...wanting more.

At the end of the day, the product on the field are why people shell out that money. That product happens to be people that put their health on the line every week to entertain the masses. (much like old gladiators) I want the money going to those guys, not the assholes that sit in the owners box.


If they really want to "maximize profits" like you claim, then they wouldn't be handing out record breaking contracts like they did to Seymour, Haynesworth, and Asomugha.[/quote]

I don't think gladiators were driving golden chariots (but maybe they were)

The product on the field is a result of a unique cooperation between the owners and players for the last 20 years.

As for where the money goes, I would rather both sides take a cut and give it back to the fans, but since that ain't happening, whether the players get that billion, or the owners get that billion, seems to me they ought to find a way to work it out. To paint it as all on the owners or the players is ridiculously simplistic, and in the end it falls on both sides.

As Andrew Brandt's article said very well, this is all about a lack of trust between the two sides. I believe all the other topics are just symptoms springing from that basic fact.

Re: Ongoing CBA discussions
 

I agree with the stadiums being too big and impersonal but I would call that a flaw in the design. I have to imagine its possible to build a large stadium that has the same feel as the old time ones like RFK or Arrowhead. The problem I would think is that too much of the best available room in the stadiums blue prints is used up by luxury suites.

Re: Ongoing CBA discussions
 

Hope this is a good thing:

[QUOTE]SBJLizMullen Liz Mullen
by FO_DougFarrar
Federal Mediator George Cohen statement: NFL & NFLPA have agreed "the ongoing negotiations will now be conducted under my auspices"
[/QUOTE]

Re: Ongoing CBA discussions
 

[url=http://www.fmcs.gov/internet/itemDetail.asp?categoryID=39&itemID=22981]FMCS :: Who We Are :: FMCS Today :: News[/url]

Re: Ongoing CBA discussions
 

Mediation huh. At least there will be a referee to call the personal fouls and keep score.

Im guessin its non-binding. Im guessin one side will walk away from the process. Im hoping the mediator is neutral.

At least this is something, at least it brings them back to the table but honestly it comes off as both sides needing a baby sitter imo.

Re: Ongoing CBA discussions
 

I just hope that it gives both sides perspective.

Re: Ongoing CBA discussions
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;784979]Hope this is a good thing:[/quote]

Thanks for posting that CRed. It has the appearance of being a positive development.

Re: Ongoing CBA discussions
 

[url=http://voices.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/collective-bargaining-negotiat/salaries-for-washington-redski.html]Redskins Insider - Asst. coaches worry about pay during a lockout[/url]

Re: Ongoing CBA discussions
 

It's funny that the owners are refusing to show their accounting books. Now, accounting is not the most intuitive subject on the planet(I'm having some difficulties myself), but a lot of it revolves around recording transaction info through the following paradigm:

Assets = Liabilities + Owner's equity.

Equity = revenues - expenses - dividends.

For example, I pay $100 to buy some paper. Cash (an asset) decreases and Supplies(also an asset) increases. When that paper is used up, it becomes an expense. Supplies decrease(asset used up) and expenses increase.

It looks like they have something to hide.
-----------------------------------------
Net profit is described here. [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Net_profit]Net profit - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/url]

Re: Ongoing CBA discussions
 

[quote=SirClintonPortis;785007]It's funny that the owners are refusing to show their accounting books. Now, accounting is not the most intuitive subject on the planet(I'm having some difficulties myself), but a lot of it revolves around recording transaction info through the following paradigm:

Assets = Liabilities + Owner's equity.

Equity = revenues - expenses - dividends.

For example, I pay $100 to buy some paper. Cash (an asset) decreases and Supplies(also an asset) increases. When that paper is used up, it becomes an expense. Supplies decrease(asset used up) and expenses increase.

[B]It looks like they have something to hide. [/B]
-----------------------------------------
Net profit is described here. [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Net_profit"]Net profit - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/URL][/quote]

This is one of the more interesting factors in this. The media - who observe these organizations as closely as any outsiders - have so far indicated that the owners do have something to hide and don't want the NFLPA to be able to spin it to the public.

Re: Ongoing CBA discussions
 

The article I linked to from Andrew Brandt had a part where he basically said that the owners don't trust the NFLPA to handle the detailed information in a "honorable"(my word not his) way. The NFLPA has the breakdown of revenues, assets, expenditures on a league wide scale, they simply don't want to show team by team details. In an atmosphere of distrust I guess that is understandable.

I can't necessarily wrap my head around what the NFLPA might misuse, but when Smith says it's a "war" then I imagine the owners aren't thrilled to give away any ammunition.

This is an analogy that I kinda understand, but it is far from perfect since no one thinks there is illegality on either side:

Lets say 2 people were together from 3am - 7am, they were smoking pot. One of them (Mr. O) still has some on him when he leaves. Walking down the street another person witnesses a police officer stopping Mr. O and asking him if he can search him in reference to a robbery that occured at 5am. Mr. O says no (because he has the pot on him, which is not involved in the situation at all), but says his friend will vouch for his whereabouts. The observer thinks that Mr. O is guilty, based primarily on his refusal to be searched. The police officer is highly suspicious. How it plays out, depends on how the officer and Mr. O co-operate, and how reliable Mr. O's friend appears.

In the CBA drama, the Owners clearly don't want to show the books because of something that may or may not be relevant. If the aggregate numbers are reliable, and give reasonable substantial agreement to the Owners assertions then the bottomline comes down to how well the Owners and NFLPA co-operate and the trust they both have in the other

Re: Ongoing CBA discussions
 

Someone posted Sally's article at another message board and all I kept seeing was the fans bashing the owners. Maybe I'm the 1 in a million who is not taking sides with the players. I can tell you the game was just a good prior to the CBA and it will be just as good with out one in the future, but I'm sure that won't happen.

Personally if the players don't like making their $400,000 + a year "playing" a game then they can utilize their education that was either payed for or they payed for making only a fraction of what they are making now. The other option is to simply walk away and play for the UFL or Canada. If the fans are all about the players then the fans will follow the players to where ever they go. If the fans are about the team then the fans will stay and watch the scrubs. Honestly I kinda enjoyed the first Lockout with the scrubs playing. As long as the talent level is even across the board then all teams have an even chance and the play on the field is fun to watch because they are of the same caliber.

It's one thing if the employees (players) are making 8 or 9 dollars and hour and are screaming that they can't make a living and need more money. It's quite another thing to have millionairs fighting for more millions. Maybe, since as someone else has said "the NFL has gotten too big for it's britches", the NFL should look at what the average cost is to keep and run a stadium a long with marketing. Then have the bigger markets put a % of their income into a fund to help the smaller markets so their $$$ are equal to what the larger markets are using. Then the rest of the money can be split in half. The owners get their half to do what they want with it ie; pocketing it or purchasing practice bubbles or uniforms or equipement or paying the non essential employees. The other half is to be used on player salaries.

I think with the millions flying around the NFLPA should be able to find a decent health insurance co. and have all the players use it to lower their costs and have each player pay for their own insurance.... as any normal business does. As far as retirement .... I really don't feel sorry for anyone making millions simply squandering their money. They have every opportunity to put money into an IRA or investment so they will have retirement money after football. People want to bring up the older players and although they didn't make as much money they too had the same opportunities to save or invest their money. Plus after their average 10 to 15 yrs playing I'm sure most went out and got another job at 30 or 40 yrs old in order to work on a retirement or atleast they should have.

Re: Ongoing CBA discussions
 

CRedskinsRule,

Your observation is probably correct. One would think that if the owners walked into the meetings showing where all the money is going and it all adds up and it still shows the owners are hurting and that due to inflation and costs to keep the stadiums etc. etc. they need to take more from the players cut then in order to keep their jobs the players might say "ok". However there are only few businesses that open their books to the employees to see where the money is going and who's getting the bigger slice of the pie. As you said it's a trust issue. The players don't buy the owners complaining about needing more money to run facilities either practice areas or stadiums. The owners don't want the players having the knoweledge of exactly what dollar amount is coming in because they are afraid the NFLPA will fight to take more of the pie.

Personally if I owned a business and the employees agreed to work for $10 an hour then they should work and get paid for the $10 an hour. If the employee doesn't think he's getting paid enough or wants better pay he obviously can speak with me about it and if I say no then he has a choice... he can stay making the same amount or he can look for another job. This is reality. This is the real world. No way am I going to open my books to show them or explain to them or to prove to them what I'm paying in employee salaries, what I'm paying in product to keep my business going, and what I'm pocketing each month. Plus people don't go into business to fail or just get by. Most go into business with the thought that their business will make money and they will become rich. Even if most business owners will tell you don't go into business with that thought.

I really hope the fans are not buying into the thought that if the owners get more money or more of the pie then ticket prices will go down. That ain't happening. Why would any business owner lower his prices on any product when he already has people paying what the cost is now? They only lower their prices when the volume of customers starts to lower in order to entice more customers to purchase their product. But you better believe somewhere else the price will be a lot higher; ie; ticket prices drop but beer and food prices get raised. Most business owners know what the bottom line is to run their business and they have to make that money no matter what. Yeah a gas station has the lowest gas in town but they do that in hopes that your butt will enter the store and pay for the outragous beer cost or soda cost or cigerett cost.

Bottom line... I personally feel the players have options... either play for what monies your agent lobbied for you to get or go elsewhere. Maybe an owner puts 70% of his income towards players salaries and he has all the best big names players but a horrible facility. Oh well. Maybe an owner puts only 30% of his income towards players but has an awesome facility and practice equipement. But in the end if a player wants 30 mill for the next 6 yrs then either the team pays it or he finds another team.

Re: Ongoing CBA discussions
 

[quote=over the mountain;784983]Mediation huh. At least there will be a referee to call the personal fouls and keep score.

Im guessin its non-binding. Im guessin one side will walk away from the process. Im hoping the mediator is neutral.

At least this is something, at least it brings them back to the table but honestly it comes off as both sides needing a baby sitter imo.[/quote]


Mediators do not "call fouls" or "keep score". What mediators do is to try to find common ground between the two sides and to get them to build on those things they can both agree on - - - until a full-blown CBA can happen.


THEN, the mediator has to HOPE LIKE HELL that the lawyers for both sides do not screw things up. Remember, those lawyers earn more money by keeping their clients very suspicious of everything that the other side thinks is a good idea and that is why eacn ahd every word of every sentence has to be argued over.

Getting both sides to agree to mediation is a positive step - - because it means they both agreed to something. But this is still a long way from over...

Re: Ongoing CBA discussions
 

With both sides adhering to Federal Mediator Cohen's request to not speak with the media very little is known of the progress. Jets' Richardson today however did comment that talks were "going well". We can only hope that this issue is resolved sooner than later and with about 25 hours of talks since Friday I'm cautiously optimistic.

So, if a big sticking point is the opening of the books, and the lack of trust that goes with that, does anyone know the answer to this:

Can the federal mediator offer to be a go between. In other words can the nflpa ask him to look at the books for with their questions in mind and then evaluate the books (assuming the owners are willing to show them to a neutral 3rd party) and present relevant answers? Or is that more detail and hands on then a federal mediator?

Re: Ongoing CBA discussions
 

Any chance BA can save the day?

Rich_Campbell Rich Campbell
Lockout averted in 3, 2, 1... RT @AlbertBreer: Another interesting name that just walked through those doors: Redskins GM Bruce Allen.

Re: Ongoing CBA discussions
 

Sam Farmer has a very good column in today's [I]LA Times [/I]that gives a brief and understandable overview of the labor talks between the union and the league.

Recommend it as a sort of tutorial on what is going on...


[url=http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-nfl-labor-20110222,0,7150073.story]When talking NFL labor negotiations, a primer comes in handy - latimes.com[/url]

Re: Ongoing CBA discussions
 

[url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/02/23/AR2011022305999.html]Sally Jenkins - No matter what happens in NFL labor negotiations, the players pay the price[/url]

Re: Ongoing CBA discussions
 

[QUOTE]AlbertBreer

Cohen in statement: "Some progress was made, but very strong differences remain on the all-important core issues that separate the parties. ...(Cohen cont): "... Nonetheless, I have recommended and the parties have agreed to resume the mediation process in my office ... March 1."
2 minutes ago
[/QUOTE]
7 days and this is what you get

Re: Ongoing CBA discussions
 

CRedskinsRule:

Do not be too dismayed by the statements of the mediator. Mediation is a process that is a complete failure until it becomes a total success. At the moment it is a complete failure - - but the two sides have not quit the process and the mediator is still willing to expend his good offices to try to bring them together. So there is a light at the end of the tunnel - - even though it may be a gorilla with a flashlight.

That means the process is still working - - even though it is a complete failure to this point.

My gut tells me that mediation at this point is not going to work and that the CBA will expire before there is a new agreement. [SIZE="1"][B][They may agree to an extension of the current CBA to be sure, but I really doubt there will be a new CBA by 4 March][/B][/SIZE] However, this mediation process - - even if it does not create a new CBA making it a complete failure - - COULD set the stage for a future mediation that will create the new CBA sometime down the road.

Yes, I have done some mediation work in the past - - although nothing nearly as big or as public as this mediation. I think about what the mediator is going through and thank my lucky stars that he and I cannot trade places.

Re: Ongoing CBA discussions
 

Nothing happens until the final hour is approaching. I would bet on them extending the deadline out a week or two.

Re: Ongoing CBA discussions
 

[quote=sportscurmudgeon;785348]Mediators do not "call fouls" or "keep score". What mediators do is to try to find common ground between the two sides and to get them to build on those things they can both agree on - - - until a full-blown CBA can happen.


..[/quote]

I know, I do 2-3 mediations a month in DC (as an atty, not med). My point was, using loose language, that they need(ed) to bring a neutral party for an airrance of grievances since I assume each side thought they were talking to deaf ears. Just didnt feel like going all lawyer talk on a football message board.

Re: Ongoing CBA discussions
 

[quote=over the mountain;786074]I know, I do 2-3 mediations a month in DC (as an atty, not med). My point was, using loose language, that they need(ed) to bring a neutral party for an airrance of grievances since I assume each side thought they were talking to deaf ears. Just didnt feel like going all lawyer talk on a football message board.[/quote]

over the mountain:

My apologies.

Like you, I have done some mediating and took your words literally since I had no idea you had been involved in the process yourself. Bad assumption on my part. [I]Mea culpa.[/I]

As the saying goes, when you ASSUME, you make an ASS out of U and ME.

[goes and sits in the corner...]

Re: Ongoing CBA discussions
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;786067]7 days and this is what you get[/quote]

The optimist in me remembers that things like franchise tags arose as creative solutions to impasses in previous negotiations. Maybe the few days off will lead to other creative solutions.

Re: Ongoing CBA discussions
 

[quote=Mattyk;786071]Nothing happens until the final hour is approaching. I would bet on them extending the deadline out a week or two.[/quote]

Pretty much this. It's a staring contest to see who blinks first.

Re: Ongoing CBA discussions
 

ESPN's Chris Mortensen reported tonight on NFL live that in the big Coaches and GM's meting today, they were told none of the coaching staffs or teams can do any class room work with their players until further notice. This really hurts the new coaches looking to implement a new system or playbook. No exceptions. They will be heavily fined. This is insane. There are something like 7 or 8 new head coaches or interim coaches that are now told they can not implement their new playbooks or schemes. They can not even meet with their player to talk about X's and O's.
There are also some teams like the Rams that have a new offensive coordinator and trying to install a new system and now can not.
What this tells me is the owners are set to have a work stopage. They want it and are preparing for it. It seems this closed doors meeting today where all of the coaches and GM's where in attendance, was about the possible work stoppage and to get them the ground rules.
Several of the panelists on the ESPn NFL Live show thought this was bordering on mean spirited by the owners and they are trying to stick it to the players.
The only thing the NFL will allow is rehab of injured players. That is it.
I am not sure why the owners would do this?
Maybe someone can give a good reason?
I am not sure how giving time to the weak teams with new coaches staffs to implement their new playbooks and do some class room work with the players is going to damage the labor talks for the owners? Anyone?

Re: Ongoing CBA discussions
 

[quote=Defensewins;786151]ESPN's Chris Mortensen reported tonight on NFL live that in the big Coaches and GM's meting today, they were told none of the coaching staffs or teams can do any class room work with their players until further notice. This really hurts the new coaches looking to implement a new system or playbook. No exceptions. They will be heavily fined. This is insane. There are something like 7 or 8 new head coaches or interim coaches that are now told they can not implement their new playbooks or schemes. They can not even meet with their player to talk about X's and O's.
There are also some teams like the Rams that have a new offensive coordinator and trying to install a new system and now can not.
What this tells me is the owners are set to have a work stopage. They want it and are preparing for it. It seems this closed doors meeting today where all of the coaches and GM's where in attendance, was about the possible work stoppage and to get them the ground rules.
Several of the panelists on the ESPn NFL Live show thought this was bordering on mean spirited by the owners and they are trying to stick it to the players.
The only thing the NFL will allow is rehab of injured players. That is it.
I am not sure why the owners would do this?
Maybe someone can give a good reason?
I am not sure how giving time to the weak teams with new coaches staffs to implement their new playbooks and do some class room work with the players is going to damage the labor talks for the owners? Anyone?[/quote]

With negotiations going on you don't want coaches & players meeting & potentially discussing things that might impact the negotiations for either side.

Re: Ongoing CBA discussions
 

[quote=Defensewins;786151]ESPN's Chris Mortensen reported tonight on NFL live that in the big Coaches and GM's meting today, they were told none of the coaching staffs or teams can do any class room work with their players until further notice. This really hurts the new coaches looking to implement a new system or playbook. No exceptions. They will be heavily fined. This is insane. There are something like 7 or 8 new head coaches or interim coaches that are now told they can not implement their new playbooks or schemes. They can not even meet with their player to talk about X's and O's.
There are also some teams like the Rams that have a new offensive coordinator and trying to install a new system and now can not.
What this tells me is the owners are set to have a work stopage. They want it and are preparing for it. It seems this closed doors meeting today where all of the coaches and GM's where in attendance, was about the possible work stoppage and to get them the ground rules.
Several of the panelists on the ESPn NFL Live show thought this was bordering on mean spirited by the owners and they are trying to stick it to the players.
The only thing the NFL will allow is rehab of injured players. That is it.
I am not sure why the owners would do this?
Maybe someone can give a good reason?
I am not sure how giving time to the weak teams with new coaches staffs to implement their new playbooks and do some class room work with the players is going to damage the labor talks for the owners? Anyone?[/quote]

The greatest leverage that the owners have is a work stoppage where players do not get paid. The more players work, the more owners lose leverage. Therefore, mean spirited or not, the owners are motivated to cut off all forms of work including study time.

I'm not defending this practice, just sayin'.

Re: Ongoing CBA discussions
 

At this point it's best to keep both sides as seperated as possible.

Re: Ongoing CBA discussions
 

I think at this point it's best for everyone to get their heads out their butts and make a deal so we can play some freakin' football....

Re: Ongoing CBA discussions
 

[url=http://nfl.fanhouse.com/2011/02/25/source-were-nowhere-on-nfl-cba-talks/]Source: 'We're Nowhere' on NFL CBA Talks -- NFL FanHouse[/url]

Re: Ongoing CBA discussions
 

[URL="http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=6161468"]Sources: NFLPA to decertify by March 3[/URL]