Re: Who Stays And Who Goes? Perceptions Changing?
 

[quote=Chico23231;636272]I really dont see how you hold on to Zorn or Vinny at this point..the collaspe end of last season and 3-9 this season? Vinny has had his 10 years...1. We need to hire a GM 2. Snyder needs to keep from making football decisions...When it comes down to long term, I think this the best thing for the team at this point. Just because we have played better the last 3 games hasnt change my perception of what this team is: 3-9 and long out of the playoff race.[/quote]
Yeah, I mean people are championing behind Zorn once he's had the least control since he's been with the organization. To me that doesn't scream "head coach material" by any means. I can see where people are coming from on a continuity discussion but that's about it. Zorn's limited playcalling is still a bit too Gibbs for me; settling for the FG with no real intention to get a TD unless we get lucky shouldn't be in the game plan against a team like the Saints. We had some good red zone playcalling and some that worked that could've gone either way (DT stiff-arm and tip-toeing down the sideline) as well though; why not do what was working and show trust in your players to make the plays that they're paid to make?

Re: Who Stays And Who Goes? Perceptions Changing?
 

[quote=pg86;636308]Yeah I got more bad news about this weekend....Were 37 point underdogs in Oakland :([/quote]
I think that this is a joke but I don't get it or whatever context that it's related to.

We're actually favored though, but only by 1.

Re: Who Stays And Who Goes? Perceptions Changing?
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;635974]If you look at the schedule of games played this year this team has been in every game. The worst loss was to Atlanta by 14 points and that was when during the 1st half the team looked as if had quit, after the second half these team has been playing a lot better despite all the injuries, turmoil and last minute heartbreaking losses. It would be dumb to let Campbell walk, we should fire Vinny get another GM, keep Zorn as HC and Sherm Lewis as OC, promote Jerry Gray to DC, build the OL, draft a LB and RB and we are on our way.[/quote]

I could not agree more....trust me...if we draft a QB this year we will look like the jets.....remember sanchize????? We will be at the bottom of the barrel AGAIN without any hope in sight...at least now we are seeing our squad play HARD on offense if JC has time....oh yeah...he is reading the blitz very well now

Re: Who Stays And Who Goes? Perceptions Changing?
 

[quote=tryfuhl;636319]I think that this is a joke but I don't get it or whatever context that it's related to.

We're actually favored though, but only by 1.[/quote]
I've been to 2 Skins games in Cali..this will make 3..I desperately wanna see a win live of course if we do win my dad and I will probably have to run to the B.A.R.T.

These guys did beat the Steelers I just hope we as hard as they have been playing if not harder they deserve a win I don't think they will go winless on the road this year.

Re: Who Stays And Who Goes? Perceptions Changing?
 

Keep Campbell and fix the O Line. He has shown that if he is given time, like any qb in this league he can do good things. If we go into the offseason and just address the qb issue and ignore the line again we will be in this same spot next year.

Re: Who Stays And Who Goes? Perceptions Changing?
 

.....Blow this shit up!

We've had 15 yrs of "were just one or two players away."
Out of the last 6 HC's only two were worth a crap; Marty and Gibbs.
Norv
Robiski
Marty
Spurrier
Gibbs
Zorn

[B]QB:[/B] JC is gone unless we tag him or something. Mentally he's just a tad slow. 1 great game out of a 5 yr contract does not fool me. Dump Collins. Either draft a great QB or look to FA and pick up someone servicable to the scheme we are running. Pick one up a year from now if needed. Is Chase Daniels still available to compliment Colt?

[B]RB:[/B] Their all old. Time for new blood. I'm a Mason fan and he's finally lost me. Ganther has been running, blocking, and catching great. Pick up another in the draft.

[B]OL:[/B] Major focus for next yr. Hello OL, come one come all. We need you. Get rid of the old and bring in the young and healthy.

[B]TE:[/B] Set.

[B]WR:[/B] Set. Hopefully we have a more qualified position coach.

[B]LB:[/B] Pick up a true SLB. Maybe pick up an undrafted LB.

[B]CB:[/B] Bye Carlos. Pick up another CB for developement. Keep Hall (obviously), Tryon, Barnes, Westbrook, Horton, ???.

[B]S:[/B] I think Landry needs to move to SS with Doughty and Moore. Pick up a true FS or two.

[B]DL:[/B] Keep all the young guys. Get rid of the old broken guys. Obviously keep Haynesworth.

[B]K:[/B] Can we find a great kicker?

[B]P:[/B] Kinda satisfied, but if a better ones available then pick them up.

If we are going to blow this up now is a good time. Heard a "rumor" that Shanahan is a done deal ready to be announced. Heard it on 106.7 with Arrington. If anytime is good it's now so he can bring in his talent scoutes, his position coaches, hopefully his coach that helped him with the OL that made Denver such a great rushing team, and bring in a bunch of new OL to build with.

Re: Who Stays And Who Goes? Perceptions Changing?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;635922]This is the challenge we seem to face every year. We always believe we're just around the corner. And when you look around the league it's not hard to think that.

Still, I think now is as good a time to make some tough decisions. I'd start by moving on from Jason Campbell. I like him and think he'll be a good to great QB in the NFL. Still, it doesn't look like a long-term commitment is in the cards for either side. And with so many QBs available in the draft this year it seems to make the most sense to move forward now.

Great thread[/quote]
thank you SS & SBXVII I was wondering if everybody was drinking that same old Kool Aide, thanks for bringing a little reality back after that hard fought emotional win. We still need a QB who doesn't throw that pick.

Re: Who Stays And Who Goes? Perceptions Changing?
 

I think the absolute best thing we can do as soon as the season is over is to hand over total control of football decisions to a new GM. From there, let this man decide where we're going.

The biggest part of what we can and can't do in the offseason hinges on the status of the CBA. The best thing that can happen to us is an uncapped year. We can dump garbage contracts (i.e. Portis), and it gives us more leverage with Campbell. Without a new CBA, JC is a RFA. If it's a capped year, he's unrestricted.

No salary cap and a new GM is far and away the best thing for the Skins in 2010. If it's not Zorn as HC (probably shouldn't be), I think we should still try to stay West Coast, especially if JC comes back. That's the best way to bring in new leadership and still maintain some continuity. There isn't a FA or top draft pick QB that is going to make us better in 2010. I like the idea of a guy like Pike or Lefevour after the 1st round. I would be thrilled if we shipped our high 1st round pick for multiples later in the draft. That would allow us to get a QB (regardless of JC's status), a RB, and more than one O-lineman, all before the 5th round. We're gonna need to look at LB as well, but I think we can make it one more year with Rocky, London, HB, Orakpo, and a FA or two.

On a side note, all the injuries and adversity have given us a good chance to evaluate some depth.

Re: Who Stays And Who Goes? Perceptions Changing?
 

[quote=GMScud;636369]I think the absolute best thing we can do as soon as the season is over is to hand over total control of football decisions to a new GM. From there, let this man decide where we're going.

The biggest part of what we can and can't do in the offseason hinges on the status of the CBA. The best thing that can happen to us is an uncapped year. We can dump garbage contracts (i.e. Portis), and it gives us more leverage with Campbell. Without a new CBA, JC is a RFA. If it's a capped year, he's unrestricted.

No salary cap and a new GM is far and away the best thing for the Skins in 2010. If it's not Zorn as HC (probably shouldn't be), I think we should still try to stay West Coast, especially if JC comes back. That's the best way to bring in new leadership and still maintain some continuity. [B]There isn't a FA or top draft pick QB that is going to make us better in 2010.[/B] I like the idea of a guy like Pike or Lefevour after the 1st round. I would be thrilled if we shipped our high 1st round pick for multiples later in the draft. That would allow us to get a QB (regardless of JC's status), a RB, and more than one O-lineman, all before the 5th round. We're gonna need to look at LB as well, but I think we can make it one more year with Rocky, London, HB, Orakpo, and a FA or two.

On a side note, all the injuries and adversity have given us a good chance to evaluate some depth.[/quote]

That right there is what should drive our draft strategy. There will be no one on the board or out there that can come here and right the ship immediately. Which is why I fully endorse both Campbell and Zorn staying for at least another year.

Re: Who Stays And Who Goes? Perceptions Changing?
 

Is the idea to be better in 2010 or better in 2010, 2011, 2012, etc? Can Sam Bradford, for example, be a better QB in 2010 than Campbell? Maybe not. But will he be a better than one than him two-three years from now? That's the question we really need to answer

Re: Who Stays And Who Goes? Perceptions Changing?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;636406]Is the idea to be better in 2010 or better in 2010, 2011, 2012, etc? Can Sam Bradford, for example, be a better QB in 2010 than Campbell? Maybe not. But will he be a better than one than him two-three years from now? That's the question we really need to answer[/quote]

But will the Jason Campbell we have right now be better in two-three years from now?

Re: Who Stays And Who Goes? Perceptions Changing?
 

[quote=12thMan;636408]But will the Jason Campbell we have right now be better in two-three years from now?[/quote]

I'm not sure he will be. I think he's sort of plateaued and what you see is what you get. I really don't have a problem with committing to him. I do have a problem with not making a decision one way or the other heading into his 6th NFL season.

Re: Who Stays And Who Goes? Perceptions Changing?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;636410]I'm not sure he will be. I think he's sort of plateaued and what you see is what you get. I really don't have a problem with committing to him. I do have a problem with not making a decision one way or the other heading into his 6th NFL season.[/quote]

Good post.. I still really believe that we should give Campbell another chance, he deserves it, after all stuff Redskins FO made him to go through.. I didn't expect to see Campbell throwing 350's yesterday, beside the interception play, he played great.. Like I said couple days ago, Campbell is developing rapport with Thomas and Davis - in other words, he's starting to trust them.. Keep the offense intact, just until we have everything else positioned; if the offense doesn't get better by then, then we can change find a replacement for Campbell (That won't be the situation, but big IF)..

I really believe that's the way to keep Redskins in the hunt for playoffs next year..

Re: Who Stays And Who Goes? Perceptions Changing?
 

[quote=GridIron26;636414]Good post..[B] I still really believe that we should give Campbell another chance, he deserves it, after all stuff Redskins FO made him to go through[/B].. I didn't expect to see Campbell throwing 350's yesterday, beside the interception play, he played great.. Like I said couple days ago, Campbell is developing rapport with Thomas and Davis - in other words, he's starting to trust them.. Keep the offense intact, just until we have everything else positioned; if the offense doesn't get better by then, then we can change find a replacement for Campbell (That won't be the situation, but big IF)..

I really believe that's the way to keep Redskins in the hunt for playoffs next year..[/quote]
This really isn't much of an "I owe you" type league though. If you can find a better solution you go with it.

Re: Who Stays And Who Goes? Perceptions Changing?
 

[quote=SBXVII;636364].....Blow this shit up![/quote]

Your boy Marty doesn't agree with blowing things up. And he even thinks Zorn should stay.

Re: Who Stays And Who Goes? Perceptions Changing?
 

[quote=Mattyk72;636453]Your boy Marty doesn't agree with blowing things up. And he even thinks Zorn should stay.[/quote]

What the hell do I know ...Marty's an idiot. :)

Just kidding. Well any coach in his right mind would be an idiot to say cut ties with any other HC in public. The only ones not affraid are the ones happy to be in the booth on some tv station. I'll agree that any HC should be given 3-4 yrs to get his system across to the players, however there must be some sign of improvement. Zorn came in and lit it up the first 8 games then when other teams figured out what he was doing he bombed. The team comes back healthy and one would think if it was all about injuries they would have started lighting it up again cause the OL was healthy. Instead they start out bad, injuries start picking up again, Zorn shows no improvement to his system or playcalls. The team goes out and brings in a "consultant" and basically the "consultant" takes over the job.

If you want to keep anyone from this coaching staff I would keep Sherm Lewis. He seems to have fixed or straightened out what the original coaching staff could not....how to put points on the board. If Zorn was a decent HC he should have found a way to figure this out. Gibbs did in his first tenure. He tanked the first 5 games, takes a look at his system and the players he has and made adjustments. They went what 8-8. Then the following season had a better record. That's showing improvement.

Ya want to keep the WCO to keep some form of continuity fine. You want to bring in a new HC, fine. You want to sweet talk the new HC into possibly keeping Lewis as OC or somewhere on the team....president? fine. In my oppinion the team has endured 15 yrs of "hey we are not that far off, we are only one player away from a SB." I'm ready, with the advent of no CBA, to finally blow this up and "Rebuild". Personally I like JC. I like his personality. I do have issues with his playing though but if the team decided to retain him for another year it most likely would be the best scenario at this point. But if we are blowing it up we might as well start off with a new QB as well and not throw JC into yet another change in terminology and scheme. If people are stating JC's growth has been stunted due to all the changes another change will not help him.

I think we need him one more yr though cause Collins needs to go. Colt is unproven and we have no one else worth their weight in gold. I did think Chase Daniels had a lot of up side. Apparently so do the Saints. I just wish we could get him back and let a new HC and staff work with these guys. Perhaps even JC if he's retained.

Re: Who Stays And Who Goes? Perceptions Changing?
 

[quote=Mattyk72;636453]Your boy Marty doesn't agree with blowing things up. And he even thinks Zorn should stay.[/quote]
I wonder if that's because he believes that Zorn might have it.. or if he knows what being prematurely ushered out here is like.

Re: Who Stays And Who Goes? Perceptions Changing?
 

[quote=tryfuhl;636468]I wonder if that's because he believes that Zorn might have it.. or if he knows what being prematurely ushered out here is like.[/quote]

I think Marty knows the value of continuity and he knows you can't build a consistent winner by changing your master plan every 2-3 years.

Re: Who Stays And Who Goes? Perceptions Changing?
 

[quote=Mattyk72;636472]I think Marty knows the value of continuity and he knows you can't build a consistent winner by changing your master plan every 2-3 years.[/quote]
I can get with that. Worse coaches have lasted longer elsewhere I suppose.

Re: Who Stays And Who Goes? Perceptions Changing?
 

No coach is going to suggest another team fire its current coach. That's plain disrespectful

Re: Who Stays And Who Goes? Perceptions Changing?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;636480]No coach is going to suggest another team fire its current coach. That's plain disrespectful[/quote]

True, but his point was more about building continuity and taking what we do well and building on that. He made it pretty clear he doesn't think the Skins need to blow things up and start over.

Re: Who Stays And Who Goes? Perceptions Changing?
 

[quote=Mattyk72;636483]True, but his point was more about building continuity and taking what we do well and building on that. He made it pretty clear he doesn't think the Skins need to blow things up and start over.[/quote]

From a small perspective that correct. Looking at the big picture....

If next year is a no cap year then we would be stupid to not blow it up. Get rid of all the old players and their contracts. Bring in youth. Start building around the draft and stop trading out picks for a has been. Start actually developing players we draft (as long as they get good scouts to pick good players). Stop constantly picking BPA unless we have no drastic needs at any one position, then pick BPA.

Get rid of VC. Even if DS did all I said above and said he was retaining Zorn and Co. though ...I would almost except if as long as he got rid of VC and the Scouts. If he did this I would almost say Ok I'm fine with this for right now for continuity sake. Bring in a true GM and hopefully better talent scouts.

Na, never mind, blow it up. I hope that if everything changes but DS keeps VC people chant, and chant, and chant, and chant...."VC must go" at every game.

Re: Who Stays And Who Goes? Perceptions Changing?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;636410]I'm not sure he will be. I think he's sort of plateaued and what you see is what you get. I really don't have a problem with committing to him. I do have a problem with not making a decision one way or the other heading into his 6th NFL season.[/quote]

I disagree. I've seen more improvement in Campbell in the last 4 games (since Zorn had more time to work with him) than in the prior 2 years before that. He completed multiple touch passes in a single game for the first time ever, he was hitting down-field receivers in something other than a crossing route, and he was making decisions more quickly.

As far as Vinny, it looks like the draft choices from the last 2 years are starting to work out. We always talk about building for the future. If the inside plan was: this year is a year which we just want to survive, and the next we build the offensive line, then it's not too bad. While our offensive line is a disaster, the defensive line has been fixed (one of the top priorities) and the receiver corps is in the best shape in years. The defensive secondary is in very good shape considering the loss of (and need to "replace") Sean Taylor unexpectedly. (The Celtics were terrible for years after they lost Bias.) The Jason Taylor attempt was unfortunate, but we were in a very bad bind at that point as injuries had reduced our defensive line to a shambles. I think we have improved greatly since the days when we were giving draft picks for Duckett and obtained Archuleta, etc. As far as QB goes, it looks like things are starting to work out. Four weeks ago I wanted to sit Campbell and try Collins to see how much was the line and how much was the QB. His play since then has improved to a remarkable degree. We now need him to get his mojo back at the end of a game.

Here is what I am looking for:
I want to see them start putting teams away when they can. (They don't have many easy games left.) When they actually won by 10 against Denver I was amazed. It probably lost a lot of money for the cardiologists in Washington. It seemed to me that they also had it right against the Saints. Every time the Saints would score to get it to a one-score game, they came right back and scored again to make it a two-score game. (Except for Suisham.) In the past it's always been scoring from behind. So if they stop playing "down to" the level of the opposition, that will be the first time we have seen that in years. I remember the year when Mara died, we only lost 1 regular season game by more than 1 TD, but we had only 1 win by more than a TD until Collins came in.

If they can put other teams away and they play well I think we should hang on to Zorn et al. If Vinny's plan was to survive this year and fix the OL next year, then I'm OK with keeping him. I am saying that with the proviso that that was the plan before this football season began.

We will see what the next few weeks bring. Hopefully some good football and healthy young players showing that they have to stuff to succeed.

Dan Snyder also has a reputation for getting rid of coaches too quickly. But it didn't start that way. He kept Norv Turner way too long. So maybe he's starting to get it.

Lastly, several weeks ago most people were saying all sorts of horrible things about the Bingo caller and how Zorn should feel about it. (And it's a total fail that Sherm doesn't talk to Campbell during the week.) The official report was that Zorn had too much on his plate and this was devised to solve that problem. Until they got these guys, Zorn probably had more on his plate than any other head coach, and was still learning the job. Maybe we have to consider that they meant what they said. I'm a scientist. I don't give a damn (in fact I like it) if a solution to a problem is different from what's normally done, but most people don't appreciate that.

For the first half of the year I didn't make my family watch the Redskins. (My wife is from Mexico, and my kids are 9,7,3, and 1.) But now they're more interested, and my wife was yelling during an exciting part of a game recently (a first.)

As an aside, I find it amusing that we have only gone up one place in the FoxSports power ranking in the last 4 games. (That was after we beat Denver.) First they dropped the Broncos to avoid raising us, then they dropped the Eagles for the same reason, then after a while they didn't need to drop anybody, they just left us where we were.

As a last aside, please root for Army this weekend, since my cousin's kid is their (freshman!) starting QB. Thanks!

Re: Who Stays And Who Goes? Perceptions Changing?
 

^^ very well thought out post

Re: Who Stays And Who Goes? Perceptions Changing?
 

[quote=mike340;636918]

Dan Snyder also has a reputation for getting rid of coaches too quickly. But it didn't start that way. He kept Norv Turner way too long. So maybe he's starting to get it.
[/quote]
Snyder didn't keep Norv around too long. Not quite two years; I guess that you're referring to the years that Norv was here before Snyder's ownership too?

Re: Who Stays And Who Goes? Perceptions Changing?
 

[quote=tryfuhl;636934]Snyder didn't keep Norv around too long. Not quite two years; I guess that you're referring to the years that Norv was here before Snyder's ownership too?[/quote]

You may very well be right. I just remember feeling it took them way too long for them to get rid of him. I think if I had taken over the team at that time I would have gotten rid of him right away.

Re: Who Stays And Who Goes? Perceptions Changing?
 

I gotta say Campbell stays at this point. We aren't gonna get a QB in the draft who will play any better for at least a few years, especially if we stick with the WCO. Build the line, fire Vinny, get a real GM, and stick with the west coast, Zorn or not.

And Ganther needs to be around next year, too. He could be a Ryan Grant kind of player for us. One team's garbage is another teams treasure kind of thing.