Re: FOX - Botched trade will put pressure on Redskins
 

[quote=redskins1974;544716]so your allowed to make arguements for JC, but I cannot make arguements against JC...
i see how things work[/quote]

Other people may sugarcoat it but the truth is....your arguments suck. Lots of people have made solid arguments against JC. And you even, in one of your posts, you talked somewhat intelligently about how he needs to step up and win games more often when things around him aren't perfect. In other words, do more than "not lose" games.

But your first post about how he was a deadbeat, loser, etc. and talking about his record while clamoring for Cutler who has essentially the same record was so poor that it will take a while for you to earn your credibility. You can climb out of your hole, but you just have to understand that since you came out of the gates with an apparent personal hatred toward Campbell has most people here (even those who agree with your general sentiment that Campbell is nothe answer) aren't going to take you seriously...not yet at least.

Re: FOX - Botched trade will put pressure on Redskins
 

what free agent QB's will be available next year?

Re: FOX - Botched trade will put pressure on Redskins
 

I don't think the botched trade adds anymore pressure than was already there. I think a little bit of that "screw you" attitude, that hopefully Jason will get out of this, will actually be helpful. I'd like to see him play the way he's capable of without thinking so much. Of course, the longer he's in the system the more that will happen, but I'd like to see him, not necessarily take more chances, but maybe impose his will a little more. By that I mean make the pass when a receiver doesn't look that open but show how good your arm is and zip that sucker right in there. Don't go all vigilante but show what you got. I think Jason has the tools but it seems he's been reigned in by the constant change in offensive systems. You have to work with what you have, but there is nothing wrong with getting in a guys ear if he's not doing his job. Take over Jason. If you do go down, go down swinging brother.

Re: FOX - Botched trade will put pressure on Redskins
 

[quote=SmootSmack;544730]Other people may sugarcoat it but the truth is....your arguments suck. Lots of people have made solid arguments against JC. And you even, in one of your posts, you talked somewhat intelligently about how he needs to step up and win games more often when things around him aren't perfect. In other words, do more than "not lose" games.

But your first post about how he was a deadbeat, loser, etc. and talking about his record while clamoring for Cutler who has essentially the same record was so poor that it will take a while for you to earn your credibility. You can climb out of your hole, but you just have to understand that since you came out of the gates with an apparent personal hatred toward Campbell has most people here (even those who agree with your general sentiment that Campbell is nothe answer) aren't going to take you seriously...not yet at least.[/quote]


The Cutler arguement was poor? Their records as starters are similar, but having a 5th ranked D versus a 30th ranked D has an enormous impact. That was the point. So tell me what would the Skins record would have been if we had the 30th ranked D?

Re: FOX - Botched trade will put pressure on Redskins
 

[quote=redskins1974;544735]what free agent QB's will be available next year?[/quote]Mark Brunell
David Carr
Kellen Clemens
Jake Delhomme (not sure if he's been extended recently)
Jeff Garcia
Joey Harrington
Tarvaris Jackson
Jon Kitna
Eli Manning (if his extension doesn't get done)
Kyle Orton
Patrick Ramsey
Andrew Walter
Charlie Whitehurst

And then Matt Moore and Troy Smith are RFAs.

Re: FOX - Botched trade will put pressure on Redskins
 

[quote=redskins1974;544737]The Cutler arguement was poor? Their records as starters are similar, but having a 5th ranked D versus a 30th ranked D has an enormous impact. That was the point. So tell me what would the Skins record would have been if we had the 30th ranked D?[/quote]

But you didn't say any of that in your first post, did you?

Plus who knows, if we couldn't rely on our defense as much maybe Campbell would have been launching passes everywhere and padding his stats so they looked as impressive at Cutler's...yet still had the same record.

Re: FOX - Botched trade will put pressure on Redskins
 

[quote=redskins1974;544737]The Cutler arguement was poor? Their records as starters are similar, but having a 5th ranked D versus a 30th ranked D has an enormous impact. That was the point. So tell me what would the Skins record would have been if we had the 30th ranked D?[/quote]
What would Denvers record have been with our receivers and o-line? Wasn't Jason sacked like 38 times? Cutler less than half that many?

Re: FOX - Botched trade will put pressure on Redskins
 

[quote=redskins1974;544737]The Cutler arguement was poor? Their records as starters are similar, but having a 5th ranked D versus a 30th ranked D has an enormous impact. That was the point. So tell me what would the Skins record would have been if we had the 30th ranked D?[/quote]Here's the thing. Having the 5th ranked defense doesn't mean anything. Especially when taken out of context. So, your answer is 8-8.

Now, if you are asking how bad our record would have been if our defense was as pourous as the Broncos...that's a separate argument. We were about five notches above the Broncos defense last year. Much like their offensive system and talent is about five steps above ours. They aren't running Moss, Randle El, Rabach, Jansen, Heyer, Fabini excetera out every week much like we aren't running the Kenny Petersons, Niko Koutivides', Dre Blys, and Marquand Manuels of the world out on defense every week.

But yeah, at least try to make a strong contextual argument. As SS pointed out, you aren't going to enjoy it here if you don't find common ground very soon.

Re: FOX - Botched trade will put pressure on Redskins
 

If our defense was as unable to stop the opponent as the Broncos were last year, we probably would have been "ranked" 17th or 18th by the NFL ypg system. And the Broncos 30th. Same ineptitude. But when your defense is facing an average of 8.5 series per game, and their defense is facing an average of 13.0 series per game, they are going to give up a shit ton more yards. It's basically all opportunity cost.

Re: FOX - Botched trade will put pressure on Redskins
 

Gtripp, im not on here looking to find common ground. I am looking to discuss different points of view.

ok - forget comparing O-lines, Defense, QB rating and team won / loss records.

so tell me the reason Denver turned down two #1 picks AND JC for Cutler? why did no team pickup JC for the skins 2nd round pick, when it was on the table? his lack of market value should tell you something - other nfl teams dont really want him. forget my personal opinion, but this was even discussed on the NFL network.

Re: FOX - Botched trade will put pressure on Redskins
 

Refusing to send a 2nd round pick for Campbell is less about Campbell than it is about leverage. For one thing, we don't know that Campbell was shopped to the entire league and not just a few teams. Further, if you know a team is shopping a QB for a 2nd rounder that they may not even re-sign after the upcoming season is over wouldn't you counter with a lesser offer?

My guess is the Redskins said let's see if team x, y, and z will take Campbell for a 2nd rounder. If they say no (which they probably will) we'll just pull him off the table. We're not looking to negotiate a trade here, just see if someone will take him for a 2nd rounder.

Re: FOX - Botched trade will put pressure on Redskins
 

[quote=redskins1974;544767]Gtripp, im not on here looking to find common ground. I am looking to discuss different points of view.

ok - forget comparing O-lines, Defense, QB rating and team won / loss records.

so tell me the reason Denver turned down two #1 picks AND JC for Cutler? why did no team pickup JC for the skins 2nd round pick, when it was on the table? his lack of market value should tell you something - other nfl teams dont really want him. forget my personal opinion, but this was even discussed on the NFL network.[/quote]Well, of course other teams don't want him. He's not a whiny brat like Jay Cutler, nor is he an established talent.

If teams acted 100% rationally, there would have been no market for Jay Cutler. It would have been "okay, our project QB and a third round pick for your project QB". That would have been the market. Teams don't always act rationally. The Redskins being there 1) drove up the price, and 2) defined the player (Cutler) as a proven commodity, as opposed to a young, promising QB, which is what Cutler is.

Understand that the Redskins COULD have done something similar with Jason Campbell had that been their goal (to artifically inflate his value and then trade him to a team that really wants a franchise QB). It would never have gotten to the levels the Cutler sweepstakes got to, but it's all cognitive dissonace theory. We spend a month talking up Campbell, defending his statistics, placing the blame for his failures elsewhere, just generally acting like he's the greatest QB we've had since Theismann and all of a sudden we say "Colt Brennan is our Quarterback". There's a huge market for Jason Campbell's services, then. If the perception is that you are willing to trade a young franchise QB, the reality is that someone will pay you accordingly.

The point is, we never bothered to [I]treat[/I] Jason Campbell like the future of our franchise, so other teams don't value him more highly than we do. He still might be the future, but at this point, he's unquestionably the present. We can't trade him for anything right now because of the way we acted around Cutler. A year from now, he'll probably have a ton of trade value, but we might be betteer off holding onto him anyway.

Re: FOX - Botched trade will put pressure on Redskins
 

[quote=SmootSmack;544771]Refusing to send a 2nd round pick for Campbell is less about Campbell than it is about leverage. For one thing, we don't know that Campbell was shopped to the entire league and not just a few teams. Further, if you know a team is shopping a QB for a 2nd rounder that they may not even re-sign after the upcoming season is over wouldn't you counter with a lesser offer?

My guess is the Redskins said let's see if team x, y, and z will take Campbell for a 2nd rounder. If they say no (which they probably will) we'll just pull him off the table. We're not looking to negotiate a trade here, just see if someone will take him for a 2nd rounder.[/quote]

Good post. I think people tend to over simplify the argument. JC was shopped for a 2nd rounder and nobody bit...nobody likes Jason Campbell.

Umm, it's not quite that simple.

Re: FOX - Botched trade will put pressure on Redskins
 

[quote=redskins1974;544737]The Cutler arguement was poor? Their records as starters are similar, but having a 5th ranked D versus a 30th ranked D has an enormous impact. That was the point. So tell me what would the Skins record would have been if we had the 30th ranked D?[/quote]

Thats a Good point, and I still think Kiper may be right on Mark Sanchez. Don't be shocked if we draft him.

Re: FOX - Botched trade will put pressure on Redskins
 

[quote=Mattyk72;544782]Good post. I think people tend to over simplify the argument. JC was shopped for a 2nd rounder and nobody bit...nobody likes Jason Campbell.

Umm, it's not quite that simple.[/quote]The Redskins would have been exponentially better off shopping him with an asking price of a 1st and a 4th. Of course, nobody would have done that, but it would have sent a message to other teams that we're perfectly alright holding on to Campbell if you aren't going to play our game, and since we're your most serious suitor, you might want to come talk turkey with us.

Of course, Snyder's biggest issue has always been that he operates in the here and now, and at that very moment, a 2nd round pick was more valuable to him than Jason Campbell was, so he kind of screwed himself over to an extent. I'm not at all surprised that the deal didn't get done given the information, and I still have no idea how Snyder can seem so ignorant of most principles of business and remain so successful.

I mean, Pat Bowlen, every word out of his mouth was "Jay Cutler is a fantastic player", and here's Snyder trying to sell low on Campbell and wondering why there's such a discrepancy in the perceived value of the two. Bowlen, even in the face of a mismanaged situation, still managed to make other owners play his game. That's very impressive.

Re: FOX - Botched trade will put pressure on Redskins
 

[quote=Paintrain;544625]Drunk and stupid. Never a good look.[/quote]
but sometimes the fit is perfect

Re: FOX - Botched trade will put pressure on Redskins
 

[quote=Mattyk72;544678]What do you say guys, thumbs up (live) or down (die)? You make the call.[/quote]
I don't think he's done enough to deserve the boot. Some people have bad days, some people have a different way of arguing, some are more reactionary.

As a site administrator you want activity. I don't find his obnoxious; booting him would make this site look too clique-driven, which it can definitely be at times. Then again, definitely don't want this being ES Jr. either; not to mention they're coming up with new excuses daily to ban people and restrict their permissions.

Re: FOX - Botched trade will put pressure on Redskins
 

[quote=tryfuhl;544807]I don't think he's done enough to deserve the boot. Some people have bad days, some people have a different way of arguing, some are more reactionary.

As a site administrator you want activity. I don't find his obnoxious; booting him would make this site look too clique-driven, which it can definitely be at times. Then again, definitely don't want this being ES Jr. either; not to mention they're coming up with new excuses daily to ban people and restrict their permissions.[/quote]

I don't care about what he's saying, I'm asking whether we should boot him due to the fact he may be a moron that was previously banned posting under a new name. He basically admitted to it but has since backtracked.

Re: FOX - Botched trade will put pressure on Redskins
 

[quote=tryfuhl;544807]I don't think he's done enough to deserve the boot. Some people have bad days, some people have a different way of arguing, some are more reactionary.

As a site administrator you want activity. I don't find his obnoxious; booting him would make this site look too clique-driven, which it can definitely be at times. Then again, definitely don't want this being ES Jr. either; not to mention they're coming up with new excuses daily to ban people and restrict their permissions.[/quote]

...Or THN where it's a gaggle of Campbell haters, people with 70,000+ posts and signatures with a bunch of annoying banners and quotes a mile long.

Re: FOX - Botched trade will put pressure on Redskins
 

[quote=Mattyk72;544810]I don't care about what he's saying, I'm asking whether we should boot him due to the fact he may be a moron that was previously banned posting under a new name. He basically admitted to it but has since backtracked.[/quote]

Ahh, yeah.. well if he had something more to bring to the table than his Campbell arguments I'd definitely turn the other cheek. Otherwise, if that's all that he wants to do here, I really have no opinion.

A little geolocation searching, other clues such as similar emails, birthdays, etc against banned members might lead you to a clue. Are most bans here permanent?

Re: FOX - Botched trade will put pressure on Redskins
 

[quote=SmootSmack;544771]Refusing to send a 2nd round pick for Campbell is less about Campbell than it is about leverage. For one thing, we don't know that Campbell was shopped to the entire league and not just a few teams. Further, if you know a team is shopping a QB for a 2nd rounder that they may not even re-sign after the upcoming season is over wouldn't you counter with a lesser offer?

My guess is the Redskins said let's see if team x, y, and z will take Campbell for a 2nd rounder. If they say no (which they probably will) we'll just pull him off the table. We're not looking to negotiate a trade here, just see if someone will take him for a 2nd rounder.[/quote]

Smoot, good points. I'm a little tired of hearing how the skins couldn't get a 2nd for Campbell too. We don't know how many teams they contacted, and Danny & Vinny would only trade him contingent upon getting Cutler first. For all we know there could've been a very serious trade partner, but it all became irrelevant once Cutler went to Chicago.

It wasn't like Mike Ditka in 99 saying publicly 'I'll trade all my picks for ricky williams!' It was only reported through an "nfl source" that Jason C. was offered up.

Re: FOX - Botched trade will put pressure on Redskins
 

[quote=Mattyk72;544810]I don't care about what he's saying, I'm asking whether we should boot him due to the fact [B]he may be a moron that was previously banned posting under a new name[/B]. He basically admitted to it but has since backtracked.[/quote]

The moron part I'm pretty sure about but only you know if he's been banned before Matty. If so, give him the boot. I'm pretty tired of the Campbell bashing myself. There's more than enough on here already. If that's[B] all[/B] he has to offer....can his ass!

Re: FOX - Botched trade will put pressure on Redskins
 

wow im hurt. really.. lol

Re: FOX - Botched trade will put pressure on Redskins
 

[quote=Mattyk72;544782]Good post. I think people tend to over simplify the argument. JC was shopped for a 2nd rounder and nobody bit...nobody likes Jason Campbell. [/quote]

I'll eat spoiled milk before i believe Campbell was shopped to anyone for a second round pick. That just can't be so.

Re: FOX - Botched trade will put pressure on Redskins
 

[quote=53Fan;544836]The moron part I'm pretty sure about but only you know if he's been banned before Matty. If so, give him the boot. I'm pretty tired of the Campbell bashing myself. There's more than enough on here already. If that's[B] all[/B] he has to offer....can his ass![/quote]

For real.. I tried to engage/bait him into bringing more to the table but can him and let him go over to ES where he will fit in just fine with the other morons.

Re: FOX - Botched trade will put pressure on Redskins
 

I think this is pretty simple. JC has shown several deficiencies. However, it is tough to argue that he has had a true chance to become a long term option. How many "systems" has Peyton Manning been in? How many for Brady? JC isn't in the same sentence as them but the point is pretty clear. Bringing in a new offense every year and then expecting improvement is pretty moronic if you ask me.

Now, JC was 6-2 and then 2-6. In the first half of the season our runningback was #1 in the league and we even had former Eagles calling JC the MVP. This is well known but what changed in the second half? The o-line disintegrated. So anyone who comes on this site or sits next to you in a bar and says that JC is THE problem needs to order another mind eraser. You show me a QB who can lose an all-pro tackle, count on a left guard who has to miss a day of practice every week, play behind a right guard with a broken neck and count on an right tackle coming off an exorcist ankle injury. We are younger on the left side so let's get this guy a monster rookie right tackle and see if JC is worth keeping. Cutler was sacked 10 times and is a primadonna diabetic who cannot drink enough. JC was running for his life all season and posted decent stats while getting sacked 36 times. Hell, the first play of the season which they worked on for weeks was a sack.

So if you in your heart truly believe it is worth two first round picks, switching a 3 for a 5 plus Jason Campbell for Cutler, well, maybe you should forget about discussing football and try to run six flags.

Re: FOX - Botched trade will put pressure on Redskins
 

[quote=Pocket$ $traight;545090]I think this is pretty simple. JC has shown several deficiencies. However, it is tough to argue that he has had a true chance to become a long term option. How many "systems" has Peyton Manning been in? How many for Brady? JC isn't in the same sentence as them but the point is pretty clear. Bringing in a new offense every year and then expecting improvement is pretty moronic if you ask me.

Now, JC was 6-2 and then 2-6. In the first half of the season our runningback was #1 in the league and we even had former Eagles calling JC the MVP. This is well known but what changed in the second half? The o-line disintegrated. So anyone who comes on this site or sits next to you in a bar and says that JC is THE problem needs to order another mind eraser. You show me a QB who can lose an all-pro tackle, count on a left guard who has to miss a day of practice every week, play behind a right guard with a broken neck and count on an right tackle coming off an exorcist ankle injury. We are younger on the left side so let's get this guy a monster rookie right tackle and see if JC is worth keeping. Cutler was sacked 10 times and is a primadonna diabetic who cannot drink enough. JC was running for his life all season and posted decent stats while getting sacked 36 times. Hell, the first play of the season which they worked on for weeks was a sack.

So if you in your heart truly believe it is worth two first round picks, switching a 3 for a 5 plus Jason Campbell for Cutler, well, maybe you should forget about discussing football and try to run six flags.[/quote]

Good post :food-smil

Re: FOX - Botched trade will put pressure on Redskins
 

[quote=Pocket$ $traight;545090]I think this is pretty simple. JC has shown several deficiencies. However, it is tough to argue that he has had a true chance to become a long term option. How many "systems" has Peyton Manning been in? How many for Brady? JC isn't in the same sentence as them but the point is pretty clear. Bringing in a new offense every year and then expecting improvement is pretty moronic if you ask me.

Now, JC was 6-2 and then 2-6. In the first half of the season our runningback was #1 in the league and we even had former Eagles calling JC the MVP. This is well known but what changed in the second half? The o-line disintegrated. So anyone who comes on this site or sits next to you in a bar and says that JC is THE problem needs to order another mind eraser. You show me a QB who can lose an all-pro tackle, count on a left guard who has to miss a day of practice every week, play behind a right guard with a broken neck and count on an right tackle coming off an exorcist ankle injury. We are younger on the left side so let's get this guy a monster rookie right tackle and see if JC is worth keeping. Cutler was sacked 10 times and is a primadonna diabetic who cannot drink enough. JC was running for his life all season and posted decent stats while getting sacked 36 times. Hell, the first play of the season which they worked on for weeks was a sack.

So if you in your heart truly believe it is worth two first round picks, switching a 3 for a 5 plus Jason Campbell for Cutler, well, maybe you should forget about discussing football and try to run six flags.[/quote]

:laughing2 I wish I would of said that. Pocket$ $traight NAILED it!

Re: FOX - Botched trade will put pressure on Redskins
 

you make it sound like it was a one sided topic. There were alot of Skins fans that wanted that trade to happen.....

Re: FOX - Botched trade will put pressure on Redskins
 

[url=http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/2009/04/browns-looking-to-make-a-splash/]The National Football Post | Browns Looking To Make A Splash?[/url]

I hope the Skins aren't the team offering their 1st round pick for Brady Quinn.