Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

I think Lorenzo and Jackson both get deals in the 2MM/year range for 2013, with significant increases in 2014 when we have cap room again. We're gonna have to work hard to meet the cap minimum in 2014.

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

Redskins will most likely have to spend more money than they half in order to keep both.I would choose Orakpo but redskins will most likely lose Jackson

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

[quote=12thMan;983234]You can't just say the defense has raised it's game in vacuum. Rob Jackson is a big part of that reason. You can't dismiss that. And when Orakpo was starting the Redskins were abysmal in the turnover category.

[B]Are we conflating better athlete with better football player?[/B][/quote]

You are exactly right. This post hits it on the head.
This very same thing that happened on our offense. A so called "better player" Fred Davis went down and a perceived "lesser player" [B]Logan Paulsen[/B] had to take over and the team improved. Coincidence? No.
Team Chemistry is so important, sometimes it is a small tiny unappreciated skill that can solidify a unit. Hardly anyone appreciates a run blocking TE on offense, it is all receiving as the measurable for TE's. On defense nobody appreciates an OLB that can cover over one that gets more sacks.

We talk and preach about balance, but we do not have as much balance on defense when both of our OLB's are similar strong pass rush guys but neither is a great coverage LB. You can't rush both OLB's on every play, they have to cover at some point. Yes we give up sacks to our sack total with out Rak and Jackson in his place. But sacks is just one phase of the game and we are winning with Jackson. With Jackson we gain a compliment to the defense and a skill set that was missing at the OLB position that in turn helps solidify the defense.
Winning is more important than stats and having a solid def and off units is more important than leading the league in sacks. There is so much more to football than one stat.

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

[quote=Defensewins;983296]You are exactly right. This post hits it on the head.
This very same thing that happened on our offense. [B]A so called "better player" Fred Davis went down and a perceived "lesser player" [B]Logan Paulsen[/B] had to take over and the team improved. Coincidence? No.[/B]
Team Chemistry is so important, sometimes it is a small tiny unappreciated skill that can solidify a unit. That is what happened, nobody appreciates a run blocking TE on offense, it is all passing. On defense nobody appreciates an OLB that can cover over sacks.
We talk and preach about balance, but we do not have balance on defense when both of our OLB's are similar strong pass rush guys but neither is a great coverage LB. You can't rush both OLB's on every play, they have to cover at some point. Yes we give up sacks to our sack total with out Rak and Jackson in his place. But sacks is just one phase of the game and we are winning with Jackson. With Jackson we gain a compliment to the defense and a skill set that was missing at the OLB position that in turn helps solidify the defense.[/quote]please

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;983276]Why, when we have solid depth, does the question become "Do we need xxx?" Granted there are salary cap concerns, and if Jackson pushes for an unworkable deal, we may have to let him go, but within the constraints that are the modern salary cap, we should keep both of them, and be glad that we are producing solid talent, with good attitudes.[/quote]


Agreed, 100%. A depth player coming off the bench and doing his job at an acceptable level doesn't automatically make an elite talent expendable. Also, the only thing that Jackson does at an above average level is cover in the flat. I doubt that will draw starting OLB money.

Few things are more aggravating than watching this organization let talented(homegrown) players walk. I recognize there are valid reasons for letting certain players go, and the Orakpo situation will need to be assessed due to his recent injury history. However in a perfect world and hindsight being what it is, I would rather have a defense with the services of Brian Orakpo, Laron Landry, and Carlos Rogers, than Rob Jackson, Madieu Williams, and Josh Wilson.

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

Jackson's probably played himself to a better contract than Lorenzo but neither should be getting a starter's deal. Lorenzo is a Lego you put in 6 different places and you know he'll be solid. Jackson seems to be a good guy with solid football smarts and a dash of football-player athleticism thrown in but he isn't an every down force. He's a fantastic depth player who can start for you in a pinch. Good teams develop players like that, lose them when they perform, replace them with someone similarly skilled and develop that new person.

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

[quote=FRPLG;983305]Jackson's probably played himself to a better contract than Lorenzo but neither should be getting a starter's deal. Lorenzo is a Lego you put in 6 different places and you know he'll be solid. Jackson seems to be a good guy with solid football smarts and a dash of football-player athleticism thrown in but he isn't an every down force. He's a fantastic depth player who can start for you in a pinch. Good teams develop players like that, lose them when they perform, replace them with someone similarly skilled and develop that new person.[/quote]

That is exactly what Rob Jackson is, a player you develop and replace.

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;983279]What about Lorenzo? Do you keep him too?[/quote]

Absolutely. He is unlikely to create cap problems and is precisely the lunch pail type of player that every locker room needs.

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

Maybe I am crazy, but I see Orkapo and Kerrigan excelling at playing as down linemen, Jackson playing great as a coverage LB... so how about the 4-3?

Starters:

DE: Kerrigan, Orkapo
DT: Cofield, Jenkins
LB: Jackson (O), Fletcher*(M), Riley (O)
S: Draft, Draft :(
CB: Hall, Wilson


* - If Fletcher retires then it's a camp toss up

I like the look of that front 7.

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

I like all angles of the discussion. But no one can convince me that Brian Orakpo is an elite talent at this point in his career. He has solid sack totals, but that's it. And not to diminish his talent and contribution to the team, but freak of nature doesn't get it for me. Now I'm not saying dump the guy or trade him or any of that, but I think we get caught up and miss the point at times.

Mario Williams accumulated a lot of sacks in Houston, but they aren't missing him one bit down there.

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

The better question is what is Orakpo? A one trick pony that is only good at pass rush with only one pass rush move? Or is he finally going to take the next step, stay healthy and develop into the next great OLB. He has not done that later yet.

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

[quote=Mayor;983310]Maybe I am crazy, but I see Orkapo and Kerrigan excelling at playing as down linemen, Jackson playing great as a coverage LB... so how about the 4-3?

Starters:

DE: Kerrigan, Orkapo
DT: Cofield, Jenkins
LB: Jackson (O), Fletcher*(M), Riley (O)
S: Draft, Draft :(
CB: Hall, Wilson


* - If Fletcher retires then it's a camp toss up

I like the look of that front 7.[/quote]

Just cause it looks good on paper doesn't mean its going to work on the field. We're doing fine in the 3-4. Why fix something that ain't broken? Our weakness is in the secondary, and 3-4, 4-3, 5-2, 1-6, it doesn't matter what defense you play you have always 4 guys starting in the secondary.

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

[quote=12thMan;983311]I like all angles of the discussion. But no one can convince me that Brian Orakpo is an elite talent at this point in his career. [/quote]

I called him an elite talent, but he has not produced at an elite level. Certainly above average, though. I don't think it's too much of a stretch to call him the most naturally gifted player on the defense, which is why I'd rather keep him. "Try Hards" are fine, but every legit defense in the NFL has at least a few exceptionally talented players.

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

[quote=12thMan;983311]I like all angles of the discussion. But no one can convince me that Brian Orakpo is an elite talent at this point in his career. He has solid sack totals, but that's it. And not to diminish his talent and contribution to the team, but freak of nature doesn't get it for me. Now I'm not saying dump the guy or trade him or any of that, but I think we get caught up and miss the point at times.

Mario Williams accumulated a lot of sacks in Houston, but they aren't missing him one bit down there.[/quote]

Our pass rush has been impacted significantly since he has been out of the lineup. I think his impact has been pretty clear.

I think his injury is the biggest variable in this discussion. It could linger the rest of his career, therefore we need to resign Jackson. I dont think he will be demanding high money, his biggest reason to leave might be an opportunity to be a full time starter somewhere.

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

Do you think Orakpo makes that INT that Jackson did this past weekend? Hell, do you think he makes any of those INTs that Jackson has this year? (probably not since he hasn't had a INT since he's been in the league) He's got 4.5 sacks, but didn't start 2 of those games. He's better in passes defensed, INTs, but doesn't bring the pressure that Orakpo does.