Re: Somebody please try to convince me that the FO has a plan.
 

[quote=redsk1;536664]The FO really doesn't have long term strategy. We have, count them 4 picks in the draft this year. Let's take for example some random top performing, consistent teams in the NFL and determine how many picks they have:

Pitts: 8 1.32, 2.32, 3.32, 4.32, 5.32, 6.32, 7.17 (From TB), 7.32
Indy: 7 1.27, 2.29, 3.28, 4.27, 5.29, 6.28, 7.28
SD: 6 1.16, 3.14, 4.13, 5.12, 6.16, 7.15
Philly: 11 1.21, 1.28 (From CAR), 2.21, 3.21, 4.21, 5.5 (From CLE), 5.17 (From NYJ), 5.21, 6.21, 6.22 (From MIN), 7.21
Tenn: 6 1.30, 2.30, 3.30, 4.30, 6.30, 7.30
NE: 1.23, 2.2 (From KC), 2.15 (From SD), 2.26, 3.25, 4.24, 5.23, 6.26, 7.26

We have the lowest amount of picks in the NFL at 4. NO has 4 too. Cleveland has 5. You may say we have a different philosophy. Until I see our team as a consistent winner under said philosophy I will tell you it doesn't work. When we start being a consistently good team, i'll change my tune.

What else is there to say? We have some good talent but also have more gaps than draft picks.[/quote]


The only draft pick we're really missing from this years draft that is the result of a questionable move is the 2nd for Taylor. If Taylor had performed as most expected he would have, he would have been well worth the pick.

We lost our 4th rounder because we traded for Kendall 2 years ago - trading a 4th round pick, two years in advance, for a consistent starter and a guy who was the 2nd best lineman on the team for 2 years was a solid move.

Trading our 7th round pick for James last year was an extremely good move as well. getting a young former first round DE for a 7th round pick was a low risk/high reward move that just didnt work out. ,most of the time, guys drafted in the 5th-7th rounds dont make active rosters and fairly often, they dont even make practice squads.

You criticize the FO and say they dont have a plan because we only have 4 picks this year - well we had 10 picks last year. Save Philly, thats more than any of the teams you mention have this year. Having draft picks doesnt mean anything - its how a team uses them. We did an excellent job in the draft last year (we didnt need starters, we needed backups, special teamers, and future starters). Morocco Brown is by all appearances extremely adept at finding "hidden gems" in the lower rounds and in undrafted players - look at how many of our undrafted practice squad players were signed to other teams active rosters last year for proof. I'm confident we'll select good players this year too.

One final thing - overall, theres little difference in talent in players drafted in the 4th round and guys who are undrafted free agents anyways. We have 2 picks in rounds 1-3 and theres a very good chance we can trade down and turn that into 3 or 4 picks. What we do in those rounds will have the most significant impact on the team in 2009. Round 4-undrafted free agents is usually just practice squad/training camp material, so our only having picks in the 5th and 6th rounds shouldnt hurt us much at all.

Re: Somebody please try to convince me that the FO has a plan.
 

[quote=Mattyk72;536626]They don't have a plan. They tack up pictures of free agents and draft picks and toss darts at them. They also get a lot of their info from playing Madden and simming through the franchise mode.[/quote]

My last time playing superstar mode i was defensive player of the year after four years and the skins lowballed me in free agency, must have known i wouldn't pick another team /sigh. On a funnier note Campbell is normally out of the league within 3 years when i play franchises.

Re: Somebody please try to convince me that the FO has a plan.
 

[quote=skinsfan69;536688]Matty I'm curious to know what you or any of the other mods think of our front office. It seems like you guys take the side of the FO. Maybe I'm wrong but it just kinda seems that way. Do you actually think they're good at what they do?[/quote]

Yes we're all front runners and support the front office no matter what.

I'm not going to even bother getting into it because it's been covered plenty of times before.

If that's the way you really think you're not paying very much attention.

Re: Somebody please try to convince me that the FO has a plan.
 

[quote=skinsfan69;536688]Matty I'm curious to know what you or any of the other mods think of our front office. It seems like you guys take the side of the FO. Maybe I'm wrong but it just kinda seems that way. Do you actually think they're good at what they do?[/quote]

I'm not going to speak for the other mods, but for myself I think

-They do a lot of things well that are overlooked by the team's fans because we all want 16-0 seasons with Lombardi trophies at the end every year

-Sometimes it may seem like I go overboard to defend the FO, but it's sometimes to provide the other perspective to the constant bashing

-I think if people took a step back they would see that a lot of other teams (even the best) make bad decisions and have bad luck. The idea that everyone else is doing it right and we're doing it wrong is naive

-A lot of people here are loving what the Giants did this offseason (so far). But we needed to improve our offensive and defensive lines and we've taken steps to do that. The Giants needed to find a WR and what have they done to address that? It's early and I expect they'll (although they deny it) use their draft picks and/or talent on the defensive line to get that WR. But they haven't yet.

-Are they good at what they do? In many ways yes. We've made several good choices in the draft and free agency. I know the common refrain is "Well how hard is to know to draft Sean Taylor?" Well, a lot of teams have made bad choices in the first round. And I know most have written off Thomas and Kelly. Well, that really just goes back to point #1.

-Could they be better? Of course. I'm not naive to mistakes they've made. The Duckett trade was disatrous and unneccesary, as one example. But we see a Chad Rinehart drafted in the 3rd round not starting and suddenly the thought is OMG, the Redskins suck! They don't know how to even draft a 3rd rounder...yeah, but we drafted Chris Cooley in the 3rd round, we drafted Derrick Dockery in the 3rd round (but we tend to forget that). We see Devin Thomas not playing much his first year and we think This moron was a waste of a pick! But at the same time we want the FO to build through the draft, be patient, and not go for the quick fix all the time

Re: Somebody please try to convince me that the FO has a plan.
 

Great post Smoot. It seems alot of people arent happy no matter what the Redskins front office does. We've been hit or miss for many years but lately, we've been hitting alot more than we've been missing. The FO has shown improvement. The FO is showing patience. We [I]appear[/I] to be moving in the right direction.

Re: Somebody please try to convince me that the FO has a plan.
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;536699]Great post Smoot. It seems alot of people arent happy no matter what the Redskins front office does. We've been hit or miss for many years but lately, we've been hitting alot more than we've been missing. The FO has shown improvement. The FO is showing patience. We [I]appear[/I] to be moving in the right direction.[/quote]

I can dig it.

Re: Somebody please try to convince me that the FO has a plan.
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;536689]The only draft pick we're really missing from this years draft that is the result of a questionable move is the 2nd for Taylor. If Taylor had performed as most expected he would have, he would have been well worth the pick.

We lost our 4th rounder because we traded for Kendall 2 years ago - trading a 4th round pick, two years in advance, for a consistent starter and a guy who was the 2nd best lineman on the team for 2 years was a solid move.

Trading our 7th round pick for James last year was an extremely good move as well. getting a young former first round DE for a 7th round pick was a low risk/high reward move that just didnt work out. ,most of the time, guys drafted in the 5th-7th rounds dont make active rosters and fairly often, they dont even make practice squads.

You criticize the FO and say they dont have a plan because we only have 4 picks this year - well we had 10 picks last year. Save Philly, thats more than any of the teams you mention have this year. Having draft picks doesnt mean anything - its how a team uses them. We did an excellent job in the draft last year (we didnt need starters, we needed backups, special teamers, and future starters). Morocco Brown is by all appearances extremely adept at finding "hidden gems" in the lower rounds and in undrafted players - look at how many of our undrafted practice squad players were signed to other teams active rosters last year for proof. I'm confident we'll select good players this year too.

One final thing - overall, theres little difference in talent in players drafted in the 4th round and guys who are undrafted free agents anyways. We have 2 picks in rounds 1-3 and theres a very good chance we can trade down and turn that into 3 or 4 picks. What we do in those rounds will have the most significant impact on the team in 2009. Round 4-undrafted free agents is usually just practice squad/training camp material, so our only having picks in the 5th and 6th rounds shouldnt hurt us much at all.[/quote]

My example was this years draft but the FO has had a long experience of not using the draft to build a team. I bet you if I researched who has had the most picks in the last 5 years we would find the consistently good teams.

I'm not saying that just b/c you have alot of picks automatically means you are going to be successful. I'm just saying our history of not using the draft has produced what? Mediocre football. Holes, gaps, and aging players.

Hey, i'm not saying you should ever trade draft picks. It makes sense sometimes. However we've been less than frugal over DS's tenure w/ the draft.

Yes, we had 10 picks last year. That was great, but again if i do the research we probably have had the fewest picks in the NFL over the last 5-10 years.

Re: Somebody please try to convince me that the FO has a plan.
 

[quote=Ruhskins;536669]So you're basing this on this year alone that the FO office doesn't have a long term strategy? Ok let's take a look at the team's lack of long term strategy:

- Jason Campbell - drafted by the team, now a good starter
- Chris Cooley - drafted by the team - developed into a damn good player
- Derrick Dockery - drafted by the team - we lost him, but got him back
- Laron Landry - drafted by the team - became a starter almost immediately
- Rocky McIntosh - drafted by the team - became a starter eventually
- Chris Samuels - drafted by the team - Pro Bowl tackle
- Carlos Rogers - drafted by the team - became a solid starter
- Golston & Montgomery - drafted by the team - solid backups
- 2008 Draft Picks
* Kelly/Thomas - potential replacements for our 30something wideouts
* Davis - Can/will become a compliment to our Pro Bowl TE
*Horton - a diamond in the rough who became an immediate starter
*Brennan - potential solid back up, could become a starter some day

While the Redskins have made terrible moves in the past by giving away draft picks in the past, they have drafted and developed players as well. And last year we drafted 5 potential starters, so if that's not "future planning" I don't know what is then.[/quote]

I think you are seeing thru the b&g glasses. Yes, we have had some good draft picks over the last 5 years. We have some talent. I love some of our picks. We miss on some but so does everyone. We just don't have enough picks. You make a list of our core guys, w/ most i really like but w/ some who haven't done jack. We're talking philosophy not a few good draft picks.

Since you want to compare though lets compare a team or two that i mentioned...

SD: Rivers, sproles, Cromartie, Vincent Jackson, Merriman, Michael Turner (no longer there), good oline, good dline, Gates, Castillo

That was w/out doing research.

We don't have as much talent as you might think. I like our guys too but at this moment we don't have the talent that alot of the upper tier teams do.

Bottom line, building thru the draft is a proven winner. Not building thru the draft is not a proven winner. Until i see otherwise I'll have a problem w/ throwing away draft picks.

Re: Somebody please try to convince me that the FO has a plan.
 

[quote=redsk1;536717]I think you are seeing thru the b&g glasses. Yes, we have had some good draft picks over the last 5 years. We have some talent. I love some of our picks. We miss on some but so does everyone. We just don't have enough picks. You make a list of our core guys, w/ most i really like but w/ some who haven't done jack. We're talking philosophy not a few good draft picks.

[B]Since you want to compare though lets compare a team or two that i mentioned...

SD: Rivers, sproles, Cromartie, Vincent Jackson, Merriman, Michael Turner (no longer there), good oline, good dline, Gates, Castillo

That was w/out doing research.
[/B]
We don't have as much talent as you might think. I like our guys too but at this moment we don't have the talent that alot of the upper tier teams do.

Bottom line, building thru the draft is a proven winner. Not building thru the draft is not a proven winner. Until i see otherwise I'll have a problem w/ throwing away draft picks.[/quote]

It was pretty obvious that it was w/out research, and I'm thinking it doesn't really prove much. At least I don't understand the point you are trying to prove and how the list you made proves, especially when the list that was written "through B&G glasses" certainly proves that we have used the draft to a certain degree and Ruhskins added a note on each player as to why he is on the list. Maybe you could expand on the one team you listed and say how that disproves Ruhskins point?

Re: Somebody please try to convince me that the FO has a plan.
 

Also interesting you use SD, who has 6 picks, they are without their 2nd just like us, and have their 4th and 7th that we are missing (the 4th was for Kendall). So what are the odds that their 4th round pick fills a starting line spot immediately for 2-3 years, or that their 7th even makes the team? The draft is great for bodies, and I would always love to have all the picks, but this year that's just not the case, c'est la guerre.

Re: Somebody please try to convince me that the FO has a plan.
 

[quote=redsk1;536707]My example was this years draft but the FO has had a long experience of not using the draft to build a team. I bet you if I researched who has had the most picks in the last 5 years we would find the consistently good teams.

I'm not saying that just b/c you have alot of picks automatically means you are going to be successful. I'm just saying our history of not using the draft has produced what? Mediocre football. Holes, gaps, and aging players.

Hey, i'm not saying you should ever trade draft picks. It makes sense sometimes. However we've been less than frugal over DS's tenure w/ the draft.

Yes, we had 10 picks last year. That was great, but again if i do the research we probably have had the fewest picks in the NFL over the last 5-10 years.[/quote]

Last year marked a new beginning for our team. Looking at the past 5 years is not an accurate picture to look at a team unless the front office structure and philosophy has remained the same for that time period. Before last year, the prior 4 years were spent in an effort to build a team that could "win now." We traded draft picks and mortgaged the future becuase Joe Gibbs had a limited window to work with to reach the superbowl. Gibbs failed.

After Gibbs retired, the plan had to change. Because of all the moves we made during Gibbs tenure, we were left with a pretty big hole to dig our way out of: Lots of old, declining players with cap figures making them uncuttable and a lack of draft picks. Its going to take time to dig out of that hole and start building for long-term sucess.

Last year we had all our starting players coming back, so we cut our older depth players, and replaced them with younger depth players in the draft. As it stands right now, we had 10 draft picks last year and we have 4 this year. So our two-year average for draft picks is currently sitting at 7. Theres a very good chance we trade down for more picks, so that average can be pushed up further.

This offseason, we've already cut every major older veteran that could be cut and replaced them with younger, promising players. We declined to resign a 30year old average Defensive lineman and weve declined to replace Washington by signing a mediocre talent to a long-term contract. We have a need at right tackle, but we declined to sign mediocre-talented RTs. This franchise is being smart and not committing money to unproven, average players. The only three major needs the team has right now on offense and defense are RT, RDE and SLB. We still have the draft and we have the 13th overall pick. That means we will fill one of those vacancies with a star player immediately or trade down and fill two or three of those vacancies with guys who can be solid players. By all accounts, Kareem Moore, Chris Horton, Devin Thomas, Malcom Kelly, and especially Fred Davis, and maybe even Rob Jackson will contribute significantly on offense and defense this year. Tryon is getting really good at special teams. Brennan should suprlant Collins as #2 QB in the next year or two.

Next year will be uncapped so we'll be able to cut older guys like Randy Thomas and hopefully guys like Rinehart will be ready by then. If not, we've got 6 picks already and we should get a Comp pick for Evans. If Daniels and Washington sign with other teams, we may get comp picks for them as well. If we're not one of the top 8 teams in the NFL in 2009, we'll also be able to sign as many FAs as we want without having to worry about the cap.

I am generally a very skeptical person, but everything this franchise is doing shows me its moving in the right direction. This franchise dug itself into a hole that got even worse when Joe Gibbs was here. We "went all in" for Gibbs and the gamble failed. its going to take time to dig ourselves out of it. We just need to show some patience.

Re: Somebody please try to convince me that the FO has a plan.
 

[quote=SmootSmack;536697]They do a lot of things well that are overlooked by the team's fans because we all want 16-0 seasons with Lombardi trophies at the end every year.[/quote]

Hey, I'm not that greedy! How about a playoff game or a winning season for starters?

Re: Somebody please try to convince me that the FO has a plan.
 

[quote=SmootSmack;536697]-Could they be better? Of course. I'm not naive to mistakes they've made. The Duckett trade was disatrous and unneccesary, as one example. But we see a Chad Rinehart drafted in the 3rd round not starting and suddenly the thought is OMG, the Redskins suck! They don't know how to even draft a 3rd rounder...yeah, but we drafted Chris Cooley in the 3rd round, we drafted Derrick Dockery in the 3rd round (but we tend to forget that). We see Devin Thomas not playing much his first year and we think This moron was a waste of a pick! But at the same time we want the FO to build through the draft, be patient, and not go for the quick fix all the time[/quote]To this, let me say that if the Redskins wanted a seamless transition between building predominantly through FA talent to building predominantly through the draft, picking at a similar hit rate to the rest of the league isn't good enough. We need(ed?) to take low risk players at positions of need with considerable upside. Even as I write that, it sounds impossible, but I know for a fact it was a reasonable expectation.

But ultimately, I have a real problem with the FO trying to pull the wool over the eyes of the fanbase by asking them to be patient with the building through the draft process, and then not demonstrating patience in the face of the Daniels injury by dealing for Jason Taylor. That is NOT building through the draft, it's throwing away your most valuable (wage-adjusted) pick for a 34 year old former superstar. Fine, if you think it's the move that gets us over the top, I impore you to do it. Just don't turn around after the season (and to Vinny's credit, he hasn't done this publically) and be like "we'll just be patient while we build through the draft." Uh, okay. Thanks for the reassurance.

I agree that the Redskins don't have a consistent, clear, long-term plan. They do seem to seize oppertunities in the market better than the league expectation, but that might just be thanks to having a huge cash surplus as an asset, and being so close to the salary cap that they have to wait for oppertunities (like a new CBA in 06 or a last capped year) to spend themselves ahead of their competition.

Re: Somebody please try to convince me that the FO has a plan.
 

I think the plan is pray no one gets hurt. Look we just have to be patient, We're along way from the start of the season. Campbell finally gets some consistency and our 4th ranked D can only be better with Big Al. We really do have to pray for no injuries though.

Re: Somebody please try to convince me that the FO has a plan.
 

[quote=KI Skins Fan;536730]Hey, I'm not that greedy! How about a playoff game or a winning season for starters?[/quote]

Didn't we have two winning seasons and two playoff appearances (with a win) in the last five years? Not great sure, but let's not act like we're just missing the playoffs year in and year out