Re: Gibbs vs. Spurrier -- stats about even?
 

[QUOTE=Beemnseven]I don't know that the Skins were all that much improved talent wise from 2002 to 2003, the two game difference proves that. If you look at the stats from each of the two years that TAFKAS posted, you'll see that Spurrier suffered from a bad defense especially when Marvin Lewis left.

One more thing, season two for Gibbs isn't over yet...[/QUOTE]

The only way Gibbs and Spurrier's ultimate stat (W-L) is even after two years is if we lose out. Man, you have no faith in this team.

Re: Gibbs vs. Spurrier -- stats about even?
 

[QUOTE=Beemnseven]I don't know that the Skins were all that much improved talent wise from 2002 to 2003, the two game difference proves that. If you look at the stats from each of the two years that TAFKAS posted, you'll see that Spurrier suffered from a bad defense especially when Marvin Lewis left.

One more thing, season two for Gibbs isn't over yet...[/QUOTE]

That's some backwards logic: you can't say they lost two fewer games in spite of more talent because the fact that they lost two fewer games proves that they didn't have more talent.

I think the additions of Coles, Randy Thomas, Dave Fiore, Chad Morton, Jesse Armstead, and John Hall were pretty significant (am I forgetting anybody?). Although Trung didn't turn out to be anything resembling an upgrade for Davis, you would have to fault Spurrier for that because he ran Davis out of town - a player who turned around and rushed for 1400 while taking his team to the superbowl that year. While it is clear in retrospect that George Edwards was not an adequate replacement for Marvin Lewis, we made enough upgrades on offense at the time for us to have reasonably expected them to give a better performance than we got.

But this whole thread is ridiculous. Anyone who seriously argues the teams are equal under the two coaches probably hasn't actually seen many games. And no, I am not a Gibbs apologist...

Re: Gibbs vs. Spurrier -- stats about even?
 

under spurrier 12-20
under gibbs 12-16

but beyond the records, gibbs team is trending upwards, SS's went downhill. JG's team doesn't point fingers, has better talent evaluation, etc. I don't know why this even came up.

Re: Gibbs vs. Spurrier -- stats about even?
 

Wow. I would not have imagined there would be so much debate on this topic. To me, it is clear that Gibbs in the superior coach and that the team is doing better now than under Spurier. And I think there are clear reasons to believe so:

First, Spurier inherited a fairly disciplined .500 team that had been trending in the right direction under Shottenheimer. Gibbs inherited an undisciplined below .500 team that was falling apart at the end of the Spurier era. I don't think we can underestimate how much Gibbs had to undo to get this team anywhere close to where he wanted it to be.

Second, Spurier's first 7-9 season, which held some promise, was largely ghost-written by Marvin Lewis. Once Lewis left, not only did the defense sour, but the team seemed to lose whatever discipline it had had the year before. As good a college coach as Spurier may be, it just flat out looked over his head in the NFL and without Lewis on the sidelines, that became very obvious in the second season. I remember seeing Spurier on TV looking confused, lost and even disinterested during games. Add to that reports from Lavar Arrington that players were "casual" about loses and didn't seem to care. Contrast that with the discipline, determination and the general sense of calm professionalism that comes from this team, even in the face of adversity.

Third, Spurier's version of the Skins tanked in the second year, rapidly losing ground from the year before. Gibbs' team, however, has improved steadily. It did so at the end of last season and has done so this season. In Spurier's second year, the team felt like an out-of-control car heading for a wreck. Does anyone really get that feeling from this team?

In my humble opinion, Spurier took over a decent team on the right track when he replaced Shottenheimer (Synder's biggest mistake, I think, was firing Shottemheimer after one season) and wrecked it. Gibbs, however, took over a broken team (think of the Cardinals or Lions) and is steadily rebuilding it.

Re: Gibbs vs. Spurrier -- stats about even?
 

The biggest difference between JG and OBC is that JG has front office support and trust, OBC did not. I think if OBC had this kind of support he would have been successful.

Re: Gibbs vs. Spurrier -- stats about even?
 

Guys, realistically, next year is our year. I will not be very disappointed if we don't make the playoffs this year, because at the beginning of the year I had hopes for the playoffs, but kind of figured we might end up 8-8 or 9-7, which is probablly where we will be. If we can make the one or two significant player pickups we need for next year, we will be better. I also see a fall off coming next year with the Cowboys and the Eagles. The Giants, unfortunatley will continue to get better because of Eli.

Re: Gibbs vs. Spurrier -- stats about even?
 

[QUOTE=irish]The biggest difference between JG and OBC is that JG has front office support and trust, OBC did not. I think if OBC had this kind of support he would have been successful.[/QUOTE]


Huh? OBC had all the support from the front office. Snyder did everything he could to get the players OBC wanted. How did he not have the support?

OBC quit. Nuff said!

Re: Gibbs vs. Spurrier -- stats about even?
 

[QUOTE=Redskins_P]Huh? OBC had all the support from the front office. Snyder did everything he could to get the players OBC wanted. How did he not have the support?

OBC quit. Nuff said![/QUOTE]

OBC did quit and I lost a ton of respect for him because of that.

The front office would not let OBC draft who he wanted and forced him to draft players they wanted. If you recall OBC did not want to draft Ramsey, OBC wanted an O lineman but Snyder said no. Snyder meddled in everything OBC tried to do and OBC did not like having all his decisions approved and potentially changed by someone who knows nothig about football. JG has not had to put up with this kind of questioning and meddeling and if JG ever has another high round draft pick I'm sure he will take who he wants not who Snyder wants.

Re: Gibbs vs. Spurrier -- stats about even?
 

The thing is Spurrier didn't want much to do with the front office and acquisitions initially. He said he just wanted to coach. He admittedly didn't know much about the players in the NFL so he took a backseat to that aspect. It's not like he got bullied around. He just wasn't a knowledgeable source to be heavily involved in player acquisitions.

After all, this is a guy who brought us the likes of Matthews and Wuerffel and coined the phrase "cheap and available". Not exactly the kind of guy I'd want to turn to if I was Snyder.

Re: Gibbs vs. Spurrier -- stats about even?
 

I haven't been on here in a few days so thought I would jump right in on the comparisons of the two most recent coaches. I brought this up a week or so ago, saying record wise we are no better than we were 3 years, or 4 years ago. I do believe if you gave spurrier the personel we have now, and GW as the D-coach we would be the same if not better than we are. No doubt Ramsey would be our guy throwing it around. Think about Moss, and probably Gardner, or Jacobs and what Portis would be doing. Its pretty interesting to think of the possabilities. Plus if we had a decent defense we could win alot of games. Spurrier lost alot of games by few points and giving up points on teams final drives, does that sound familiar?

Re: Gibbs vs. Spurrier -- stats about even?
 

Bottom line is this - Gibbs has the record, presence and respect that means players listen and respond and Snyder lets him run the team. Spurrier didn't. While Spurrier clearly had talent and might have flourished in a different team, he was the wrong man under Snyder. Gibbs is probably one of only a handful of coaches that can operate under Snyder without interference.

Is there any other coach in the NFL that you really think could have turned the Skins around any quicker?

Re: Gibbs vs. Spurrier -- stats about even?
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]The thing is Spurrier didn't want much to do with the front office and acquisitions initially. He said he just wanted to coach. He admittedly didn't know much about the players in the NFL so he took a backseat to that aspect. It's not like he got bullied around. He just wasn't a knowledgeable source to be heavily involved in player acquisitions.

After all, this is a guy who brought us the likes of Matthews and Wuerffel and coined the phrase "cheap and available". Not exactly the kind of guy I'd want to turn to if I was Snyder.[/QUOTE]

But he's exactly the guy Snyder wanted to turn to. After he fired Norv, all Snyder talked about was wanting to get OBC to coach the redskins and tried everything he could to lure him away from UF but OBC did not want to leave so Snyder hired Marty. The minute OBC said he was leaving UF, Snyder dumped Marty like a bad habit and hired OBC. Thats what confused me so much about the Snyder-OBC relationship, Snyder wanted OBC more than any coach in the USA and the minute he got him seemed to not trust any decision OBC made.

Re: Gibbs vs. Spurrier -- stats about even?
 

What I mean by turn to, was turn to in respect to player acquisitions and evalutations.

Spurrier was brought in for his offense, not his ability to contribute to the front office.

Re: Gibbs vs. Spurrier -- stats about even?
 

Yes, I agree and in the interview he did with Sports Illustrated a month or so ago he said that one of his biggest mistakes with his time in the NFL was that he relinquished too much control of player acquisition to others.

Re: Gibbs vs. Spurrier -- stats about even?
 

Lets also remember that besides undoing 10 years of bad coaching he's had to redo this roster.finding the guys that play his kind of football hard all out and smart.he's still got a few players he needs to get this team where he wants it.but they are playing with more heart and fight and they are slowly and painfully learning how to win ie closing out games.building teams is not easy but we have a proven architech in charge. we just need to give him time.spurrier kind kind of threw it up against the wall to see what stuck.i'll take gibbs.under norv and spurrier this team rolled over and had no heart soo many times. this team won't do that.

Re: Gibbs vs. Spurrier -- stats about even?
 

[QUOTE=#56fanatic]I haven't been on here in a few days so thought I would jump right in on the comparisons of the two most recent coaches. I brought this up a week or so ago, saying record wise we are no better than we were 3 years, or 4 years ago. I do believe if you gave spurrier the personel we have now, and GW as the D-coach we would be the same if not better than we are. No doubt Ramsey would be our guy throwing it around. Think about Moss, and probably Gardner, or Jacobs and what Portis would be doing. Its pretty interesting to think of the possabilities. Plus if we had a decent defense we could win alot of games. Spurrier lost alot of games by few points and giving up points on teams final drives, does that sound familiar?[/QUOTE]

You make a good point here. If Portis and Williams and everyone else had been brought into Spurrier's system (not saying this would have happened, but just as an intellectual exercise) how would the team have faired last year. With that D I don't think it would be unreasonable to suggest they could have won at least 6 games, maybe more. At least we wouldn't have had a "1992" offense." I don't know though. It is obvious Spurrier didn't have the respect of the team. Anyway, interesting to think about.

Re: Gibbs vs. Spurrier -- stats about even?
 

I will always believe that a strong work ethic from a coach and the ability to surround yourself with the right coaching staff is what tells the tale when it comes to who's a good coach and who isn't. It goes far beyond X's and O's. While Spurrier has the ability to draw up the plays, he lacks in the willingness to put in the work ethic it takes to be successful in the NFL. He also didn't have the ability to surround himself with a good supporting cast as far as coaches are concerned. For instance, look at Bill Belichick. He surrounded himself with a great supporting cast of coaches - guys who now are head coaches either in college or in the NFL - and look how successful New England has been. Look how it has hurt them since those guys left. Remember, Joe Gibbs brought Gregg Williams in for our defense - and the other coaches who have had success in this league at one point or another. While people still want to compare the two - which I believe is idiotic - there is absolutely no comparsion. This team is on its way back to being a playoff team once more. Maybe not this season, but we're closer to it now than what we ever were with Steve Spurrier.

I will tell you this, if I had my choice between the other coaches who have coached this team, besides Gibbs, I would pick Marty Schottenhiemer.

Re: Gibbs vs. Spurrier -- stats about even?
 

[QUOTE=#56fanatic].I do believe if you gave spurrier the personel we have now, and GW as the D-coach we would be the same...[/QUOTE]

stop right there... GW is ONLY here because of gibbs, OBC/SS would have NEVER been able to land him.

Re: Gibbs vs. Spurrier -- stats about even?
 

[QUOTE=skinsguy]I will always believe that a strong work ethic from a coach and the ability to surround yourself with the right coaching staff is what tells the tale when it comes to who's a good coach and who isn't. ...

I will tell you this, if I had my choice between the other coaches who have coached this team, besides Gibbs, I would pick Marty Schottenhiemer.[/QUOTE]

I agree. Look at the coaches who followed Gibbs. Richie Pettibon never really had a chance to get his feet under him, which was surprising since his hiring was a promotion and he came in knowing the system and the players. Norv Turner never really seemed to have the fire and determination it takes to win in the NFL and his teams seemed to reflect his own personality. Decent but no grit. Spurier, like I said before, may be a good college coach, but his whole approach was just too laid back, too soft for the NFL.

Of the whole bunch, Schottenhiemer was the only one who tried to instill discipline, determination and consistency in the Skins. And, for that reason, his firing stands as Synder's biggest mistake.

If anyone wants to play "what if" imagine what might have been if Schottenhiemer had come back for a second year to build on the strong finish of his first season. And what might have been in a third year? Who might we have drafted? Where might we have been?

The only bright side to Schottenhiemer's firing, I think, is that it ultimately led to Gibbs coming back.

Re: Gibbs vs. Spurrier -- stats about even?
 

[QUOTE=That Guy]stop right there... GW is ONLY here because of gibbs, OBC/SS would have NEVER been able to land him.[/QUOTE]

OBC had Marvin Lewis who last time I checked was a heck of a D coordinator and not a bad head coach (better than GW in both areas I think). Had Lewis not left for the Cincy job, who knows how this team would have done.

Another problem OBC had was that he thought he was dealing with pros that did not need to be treated like kids and would do what the coach wanted. Unfortunately OBC found out thats not the case and in reality he was not dealing with the mature adults he thought he was. Gibbs is a much better leader of men that have to be handled like little kids.

Re: Gibbs vs. Spurrier -- stats about even?
 

[QUOTE=That Guy]stop right there... GW is ONLY here because of gibbs, OBC/SS would have NEVER been able to land him.[/QUOTE]

that is what everyone said when Danny went out and hired Marvis Lewis. No way is he going to work for a College coach, and he did.

Re: Gibbs vs. Spurrier -- stats about even?
 

[QUOTE=#56fanatic]that is what everyone said when Danny went out and hired Marvis Lewis. No way is he going to work for a College coach, and he did.[/QUOTE]

And left after one year. Obviously Marvin Lewis wasn't interested in staying in Washington at all.

Re: Gibbs vs. Spurrier -- stats about even?
 

[QUOTE=skinsguy]And left after one year. Obviously Marvin Lewis wasn't interested in staying in Washington at all.[/QUOTE]

He left to take the head job in Cincy. It was not about staying in Wash it was about accepting a head coach job which just about every guy coaching in the NFL wants to do.

Re: Gibbs vs. Spurrier -- stats about even?
 

On a little different vein. One of the reasons I think Spurrier REALLY let us down. I like many of you was stoked about Spurrier coming to DC. The guy had INCREDIBLE college creds. Like, the ONLY guy to win the Heisman, win the national title as a collegiate player. NFL QB with Tampa, Won the National title as a collegiate coach! (I'm probably missed something) Nothing but success!!!!!!! He killed himself almost from the beginning, then quits---------I was in shock. However, like many things, it had a huge silver lining!

Re: Gibbs vs. Spurrier -- stats about even?
 

[QUOTE=Hog1]On a little different vein. One of the reasons I think Spurrier REALLY let us down. I like many of you was stoked about Spurrier coming to DC. The guy had INCREDIBLE college creds. Like, the ONLY guy to win the Heisman, win the national title as a collegiate player. NFL QB with Tampa, Won the National title as a collegiate coach! (I'm probably missed something) Nothing but success!!!!!!! He killed himself almost from the beginning, then quits---------I was in shock. However, like many things, it had a huge silver lining![/QUOTE]

He quit because Danny wanted him to fire his entire staff. He stuck up for his guys and said he wasn't going to fire them, thats why he walked away. Trust me, Spurrier isn't the kind of person to just quit, he is far too competative. and said from the beginning, after 3 years if I am still losing then I would walk away my self. Danny left him no choice but to quit. Would you fire the people that you brought on, that you won with in college, that knows you and you system, I dont think so. Joe wouldn't do that. and GW would n't be here if Petibone would have said yes to coming back with all the other guys.

Re: Gibbs vs. Spurrier -- stats about even?
 

[QUOTE=irish]He left to take the head job in Cincy. It was not about staying in Wash it was about accepting a head coach job which just about every guy coaching in the NFL wants to do.[/QUOTE]


The point is, Marvin never really said that he was in it for the long haul with Spurrier. Gregg Williams probably could have easily gotten a head coaching job this year if he wanted to.... i.e Cleveland or Miami.....but Williams has said that he wants to stay here and see things through.

Re: Gibbs vs. Spurrier -- stats about even?
 

I am not pointing at anyone on saying names, but some people are just blind to the way things work in the NFL. It is a business, and if the right job comes open GW will leave for a head coaching job. No way is he going to stay an assistant for 3 more years. His stock is high, and of the two jobs that were open last year, I dont think he was going to get back into the same situation like buffalo. He is one of the most talked about people getting a shot at coaching again. being an assistant is a constant audition for the next Head Coaching position out there. Stop thinking there is some sort of loyalty with the people that come here. Marvin said he was going to see our team through, but left for Cincy, which at the time looked stupid. But how many teams passed over him when he should have been a head coach years before. He had to take the Cincy job, nobody was offering him anything else.

Re: Gibbs vs. Spurrier -- stats about even?
 

[QUOTE=#56fanatic]He quit because Danny wanted him to fire his entire staff. He stuck up for his guys and said he wasn't going to fire them, thats why he walked away. Trust me, Spurrier isn't the kind of person to just quit, he is far too competative. and said from the beginning, after 3 years if I am still losing then I would walk away my self. Danny left him no choice but to quit. Would you fire the people that you brought on, that you won with in college, that knows you and you system, I dont think so. Joe wouldn't do that. and GW would n't be here if Petibone would have said yes to coming back with all the other guys.[/QUOTE]


But you're comparing apples to oranges. Spurrier's staff was not getting it done in the NFL. Look how the offensive line had completely no protection at all for the quarterback - look how terrible the defense was in Spurrier's last year. It is one thing to have a staff you won with in college, but it is something entirely different to stand up for a staff that has won in the NFL.

Re: Gibbs vs. Spurrier -- stats about even?
 

[QUOTE=#56fanatic]I am not pointing at anyone on saying names, but some people are just blind to the way things work in the NFL. It is a business, and if the right job comes open GW will leave for a head coaching job. No way is he going to stay an assistant for 3 more years. His stock is high, and of the two jobs that were open last year, I dont think he was going to get back into the same situation like buffalo. He is one of the most talked about people getting a shot at coaching again. being an assistant is a constant audition for the next Head Coaching position out there. Stop thinking there is some sort of loyalty with the people that come here. Marvin said he was going to see our team through, but left for Cincy, which at the time looked stupid. But how many teams passed over him when he should have been a head coach years before. He had to take the Cincy job, nobody was offering him anything else.[/QUOTE]

I'm not really sure how we got off on the tangent of Marvin Lewis and Gregg Williams, but what I said cannot be denied as fact. The fact is, Joe Gibbs knows more about picking the right kind of people to surround him on the coaching staff and he's got proof with success. There cannot be any comparision between the two - don't even compare Steve Spurrier in college to Joe Gibbs in the NFL - it's apples and oranges.

Re: Gibbs vs. Spurrier -- stats about even?
 

[QUOTE=skinsguy]I'm not really sure how we got off on the tangent of Marvin Lewis and Gregg Williams, but what I said cannot be denied as fact. The fact is, Joe Gibbs knows more about picking the right kind of people to surround him on the coaching staff and he's got proof with success. There cannot be any comparision between the two - don't even compare Steve Spurrier in college to Joe Gibbs in the NFL - it's apples and oranges.[/QUOTE]

I am not comparing the two coaches. It was brought up about Spurrier walking out or quiting on the Redskins. I was pointing out that "the Danny" left him no choice. He said, either you fire all your staff, and take what I give you, Or leave. He stood up for the guys he brought here and left. Just like when Danny decided to fire Norv, danny asked Ray Rhodes to step in and he said no. He was loyal to Norv and wouldn't do that to him.

Re: Gibbs vs. Spurrier -- stats about even?
 

[QUOTE=skinsguy]The point is, Marvin never really said that he was in it for the long haul with Spurrier. Gregg Williams probably could have easily gotten a head coaching job this year if he wanted to.... i.e Cleveland or Miami.....but Williams has said that he wants to stay here and see things through.[/QUOTE]

If you think GW is hanging around with the skins out of the goodness of his heart or for some larger purpose you are highly mistaken. If memory serves I cant recall his name even being mentioned for any of the jobs you noted (maybe that has to do with his poor performance as Bills head coach). When the right offer comes along GW will thank JG and the redskins for their help and move on.

Re: Gibbs vs. Spurrier -- stats about even?
 

GW is being paid very well here, so if another team is interested the catch is they're gonna have to top what he's making here to lure him away. How badly other teams are interested is the key question.

Re: Gibbs vs. Spurrier -- stats about even?
 

[QUOTE=irish]If you think GW is hanging around with the skins out of the goodness of his heart or for some larger purpose you are highly mistaken. If memory serves I cant recall his name even being mentioned for any of the jobs you noted (maybe that has to do with his poor performance as Bills head coach). When the right offer comes along GW will thank JG and the redskins for their help and move on.[/QUOTE]

So what is your point Irish? How can we compare Spurrier's coaching staff to the coaching Staff Gibbs has had (and has) in the NFL? There is no comparsion.

Re: Gibbs vs. Spurrier -- stats about even?
 

[QUOTE=skinsguy]So what is your point Irish? How can we compare Spurrier's coaching staff to the coaching Staff Gibbs has had (and has) in the NFL? There is no comparsion.[/QUOTE]

What I am saying in response to That Guy's post back on page 6 or 7 is that he says no way could OBC have had as good a coach as GW on his staff and what I say is that he had a better one in the form of Marvin Lewis. IMO a comparison of those coaches shows ML to be the better coach. As far as a top to bottom comparison of staffs, I'll give the edge to Gibbs' staff.

Re: Gibbs vs. Spurrier -- stats about even?
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]GW is being paid very well here, so if another team is interested the catch is they're gonna have to top what he's making here to lure him away. How badly other teams are interested is the key question.[/QUOTE]

Marvin Lewis was also paid very well here. In fact he was paid more as an assistant than some head coaches in the league. He was lured away by the prospect of being a head coach. I dont think he would have left for another assistant's job, it was the job title he left for.

If someone offers GW a head coach job it wont matter what the redskins pay, he will go to be the head man.

Re: Gibbs vs. Spurrier -- stats about even?
 

[QUOTE=irish]If someone offers GW a head coach job it wont matter what the redskins pay, he will go to be the head man.[/QUOTE]

I would think the pay would have to at least be similar. I doubt he would take a huge pay cut to be a HC again.

Re: Gibbs vs. Spurrier -- stats about even?
 

lewis was mad he didn't get our HC job (which he should have gotten btw), and he didn't make any bones about wanting to be a HC no matter what and as soon as possible.

Re: Gibbs vs. Spurrier -- stats about even?
 

[QUOTE=That Guy]lewis was mad he didn't get our HC job (which he should have gotten btw), and he didn't make any bones about wanting to be a HC no matter what and as soon as possible.[/QUOTE]

Well remember that just before we brought in Lewis is what widely expected that the Bucs would name him their head coach. At the last second they changed their mind. And ultimately traded for Gruden

Re: Gibbs vs. Spurrier -- stats about even?
 

Is there a stat for lockerroom? Seems Spurrier had lost controll of his team internally. Allowing the players to dictate the mood in the locker room. Gibbs is the boss and what he says goes. We are so much more competative with Gibbs. Is this really a question that needs to be asked? If you ask it maybe you should just go cheer for the gamecocks or how about the cowgurls.

Re: Gibbs vs. Spurrier -- stats about even?
 

What it all boils down to is this: When Steve Spurrier comes back to the NFL and wins at least 2 Super Bowls, let alone with different quarterbacks and running backs, then I'll agree that it would be somewhat feasible to compare Spurrier to Gibbs. Until then, I can't see the logic in such a comparision.