Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

The better question is what is Orakpo? A one trick pony that is only good at pass rush with only one pass rush move? Or is he finally going to take the next step, stay healthy and develop into the next great OLB. He has not done that later yet.

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

[quote=Mayor;983310]Maybe I am crazy, but I see Orkapo and Kerrigan excelling at playing as down linemen, Jackson playing great as a coverage LB... so how about the 4-3?

Starters:

DE: Kerrigan, Orkapo
DT: Cofield, Jenkins
LB: Jackson (O), Fletcher*(M), Riley (O)
S: Draft, Draft :(
CB: Hall, Wilson


* - If Fletcher retires then it's a camp toss up

I like the look of that front 7.[/quote]

Just cause it looks good on paper doesn't mean its going to work on the field. We're doing fine in the 3-4. Why fix something that ain't broken? Our weakness is in the secondary, and 3-4, 4-3, 5-2, 1-6, it doesn't matter what defense you play you have always 4 guys starting in the secondary.

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

[quote=12thMan;983311]I like all angles of the discussion. But no one can convince me that Brian Orakpo is an elite talent at this point in his career. [/quote]

I called him an elite talent, but he has not produced at an elite level. Certainly above average, though. I don't think it's too much of a stretch to call him the most naturally gifted player on the defense, which is why I'd rather keep him. "Try Hards" are fine, but every legit defense in the NFL has at least a few exceptionally talented players.

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

[quote=12thMan;983311]I like all angles of the discussion. But no one can convince me that Brian Orakpo is an elite talent at this point in his career. He has solid sack totals, but that's it. And not to diminish his talent and contribution to the team, but freak of nature doesn't get it for me. Now I'm not saying dump the guy or trade him or any of that, but I think we get caught up and miss the point at times.

Mario Williams accumulated a lot of sacks in Houston, but they aren't missing him one bit down there.[/quote]

Our pass rush has been impacted significantly since he has been out of the lineup. I think his impact has been pretty clear.

I think his injury is the biggest variable in this discussion. It could linger the rest of his career, therefore we need to resign Jackson. I dont think he will be demanding high money, his biggest reason to leave might be an opportunity to be a full time starter somewhere.

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

Do you think Orakpo makes that INT that Jackson did this past weekend? Hell, do you think he makes any of those INTs that Jackson has this year? (probably not since he hasn't had a INT since he's been in the league) He's got 4.5 sacks, but didn't start 2 of those games. He's better in passes defensed, INTs, but doesn't bring the pressure that Orakpo does.

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

[quote=Mayor;983310]Maybe I am crazy, but I see Orkapo and Kerrigan excelling at playing as down linemen, Jackson playing great as a coverage LB... so how about the 4-3?

Starters:

DE: Kerrigan, Orkapo
DT: Cofield, Jenkins
LB: Jackson (O), Fletcher*(M), Riley (O)
S: Draft, Draft :(
CB: Hall, Wilson


* - If Fletcher retires then it's a camp toss up

I like the look of that front 7.[/quote]

I don't. It would make our front 7 much worse. Carriker and Bowen (whom you are not in your lineup) are much better players than Jenkins and Jackson. Your proposal also leaves us little depth behind the starters. I think the lineup you described would be a nice defensive look to mix things up, but it's a weaker base defense than what we have now.

I also don't like any lineup that has hall an window as our primary corners.

In addition, you have us starting two rookie safeties. Considering our first two picks will be in the bottom of the 2nd and 3rd rounds, the idea of starting two rookies is even more preposterous. Overall, I think your lineup would result in a weaker defense than what we had this year.

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

[quote=NC_Skins;983319]Do you think Orakpo makes that INT that Jackson did this past weekend? Hell, do you think he makes any of those INTs that Jackson has this year? (probably not since he hasn't had a INT since he's been in the league) He's got 4.5 sacks, but didn't start 2 of those games. He's better in passes defensed, INTs, but doesn't bring the pressure that Orakpo does.[/quote]

We won the NFC East with out Orakpo's pass rush pressure. How critical is that pressure?

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

Why not kick Rob Jackson inside with Perry Riley when Fletcher decides to hang it up?

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

[quote=KJHJ2;983325]Why not kick Rob Jackson inside with Perry Riley when Fletcher decides to hang it up?[/quote]

This makes sense to me. Jackson doesn't generate a big pass rush, which is more a function of an OLB. An ILB needs to be a sure tackler, and if he can pluck errant passes out of the air, so much the better. And Jackson can do that (just as Fletcher did this year too). I realize that they're different positions, but I would imagine that Jackson is a solid enough player to make the transition, and who better to teach him than Fletcher?

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

[quote=CultBrennan59;983315]Just cause it looks good on paper doesn't mean its going to work on the field. We're doing fine in the 3-4. Why fix something that ain't broken? Our weakness is in the secondary, and 3-4, 4-3, 5-2, 1-6, it doesn't matter what defense you play you have always 4 guys starting in the secondary.[/quote]

While I get your point, my point is putting you talent in a position where they are most beneficial to the team is a good strategy. Orkapo is a good pass rusher, Jackson is a ball hawk, I was just presenting an option that puts them both on the field in a position where they excel.

In fact, we have been fighting for years now to pigeonhole Kerrigan and Orkapo into 3-4 LB positions when their natural talents are in the 4-3 DE position. Why not build the defense around our best players best skills?

Adjusting your scheme to the skills of your players is what winning franchises do. Getting rid of a good player because they don't fit in your scheme is what losing franchises do.

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

Shannahan wanted the 3-4 defense and changed us to it. It isn't going to change anytime soon.

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

[quote=Mayor;983327]While I get your point, my point is putting you talent in a position where they are most beneficial to the team is a good strategy. Orkapo is a good pass rusher, Jackson is a ball hawk, I was just presenting an option that puts them both on the field in a position where they excel.

In fact, we have been fighting for years now to pigeonhole Kerrigan and Orkapo into 3-4 LB positions when their natural talents are in the 4-3 DE position. Why not build the defense around our best players best skills?

Adjusting your scheme to the skills of your players is what winning franchises do. Getting rid of a good player because they don't fit in your scheme is what losing franchises do.[/quote]

Your proposal gets rid of carriker and Bowen, who are better players than Jackson and Jenkins. So you are suggesting the skins do what a losing organization would do. I would like it if you were the defensive coordinator for the cowboys.

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

[quote=Mayor;983327]While I get your point, my point is putting you talent in a position where they are most beneficial to the team is a good strategy. Orkapo is a good pass rusher, Jackson is a ball hawk, [B]I was just presenting an option that puts them both on the field in a position where they excel.[/B]

In fact, we have been fighting for years now to pigeonhole Kerrigan and Orkapo into 3-4 LB positions when their natural talents are in the 4-3 DE position. Why not build the defense around our best players best skills?

Adjusting your scheme to the skills of your players is what winning franchises do. Getting rid of a good player because they don't fit in your scheme is what losing franchises do.[/quote]while taking bowen and carriker off the field, from a position in which they excel

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

[quote=Defensewins;983324]We won the NFC East with out Orakpo's pass rush pressure. How critical is that pressure?[/quote]

That's really something I cannot answer. Definitely something the coaches will have to decide.

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;983330]Your proposal gets rid of carriker and Bowen, who are better players than Jackson and Jenkins. [B]So you are suggesting the skins do what a losing organization would do[/B]. I would like it if you were the defensive coordinator for the cowboys.[/quote]

What?

You can have Jackson and Orakpo on the field at the sametime, his alignment is a little off, but it can easily be done.

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

[quote=los panda;983332]while taking bowen and carriker off the field, from a position in which they excel[/quote]

Bowen off the field in pass rush situations is no big loss at all.

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

[quote=KJHJ2;983325]Why not kick Rob Jackson inside with Perry Riley when Fletcher decides to hang it up?[/quote]

Because you're forgetting about Keenan Robinson

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;983338]Because you're forgetting about Keenan Robinson[/quote]i did, i forgot he was ir'd

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

We could kick Jackson inside on purely passing situations, kind of like how the Giants play DE's at DT in passing situations.

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

[quote=Defensewins;983324]We won the NFC East with out Orakpo's pass rush pressure. How critical is that pressure?[/quote]

Winning the NFC East does not discount the fact the Redskins still have to 28th ranked defense in the league. The rest of the team isn't so perfect that they can afford to disregard a principle of NFL defenses. They should be able to create pressure without having to rush six defenders, but since Orakpo went down that hasn't happened.

Ask the 2007 and 2011 Giants if a pass rush is critical.

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

[quote=Mayor;983310][B]Maybe I am crazy[/B], but I see Orkapo and Kerrigan excelling at playing as down linemen, Jackson playing great as a coverage LB... so how about the 4-3?

Starters:

DE: Kerrigan, Orkapo
DT: Cofield, Jenkins
LB: Jackson (O), Fletcher*(M), Riley (O)
S: Draft, Draft :(
CB: Hall, Wilson


* - If Fletcher retires then it's a camp toss up

I like the look of that front 7.[/quote]

You are. The 4-3 ship left the port in 2009 with Greg Blache.. We are a 3-4 team now and for the forseeable future.

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;983338]Because you're forgetting about Keenan Robinson[/quote]

Also because you're forgetting Jackson is a DE converted to OLB who then you would be converting to ILB. This isn't Madden where you can just go to another screen and change a player's position. Jackson has very limited lateral quickness, especially for an ILB. Not discounting any of his plays but did you see how long it took him to build any forward momentum on his INT vs the Browns?

He's maximizing the role he's playing in the defense but let's quit being prisoners of the moment and making him into something he's not.

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

Also, Jackson and Rak are almost the same exact size. Rak is definitely more chiseled and is stronger.

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

[quote=firstdown;983280]Orakpo has not been the same sense he did those bad Geico comercials.[/quote]

:laughing2That's good shit.

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

Yes. I was watching number 72 Stephen Bowen and there was a few plays I saw him just give up and lightly jog and lollygag basically. Let one of them take his spot even though Bowen is listed as DE. Either one of them would be better starting over Bowen. Just venting a bit but I'm proud of them so far.

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

[quote=Sonny9TD;983381]Yes. I was watching number 72 Stephen Bowen and there was a few plays I saw him just give up and lightly jog and lollygag basically. Let one of them take his spot even though Bowen is listed as DE. Either one of them would be better starting over Bowen. Just venting a bit but I'm proud of them so far.[/quote]

I'm not sure that I entirely agree with your post. But you do get 10 points for using the underused word "lollygag."

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

I'm not entirely sure we use Jackson and Orakpo the same ways. I think we're using Kerrigan more like we used Orakpo and Jackson more like we used Kerrigan before. Might be wrong though.

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

[quote=Chico23231;983336]What?

You can have Jackson and Orakpo on the field at the sametime, his alignment is a little off, but it can easily be done.[/quote]

I wasnt critical of hte idea of having jackson, orakpo, (and kerrigan) on the field at the same time. His proposal put Jackson and Jenkins on the field in a 4-3 instead of Bowen and Carriker on the field in a 3-4. I think Bowen and Carriker are much better 3-4 players than Jackson and Jenkins are 4-3 players. His scheme put two backups on the field instead of two more talented starters. It also put in two rookies as safeties with Hall and Wilson still our starting CBs. it was a completely stupid proposal in every way.

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

[quote=Lotus;983388]I'm not sure that I entirely agree with your post. But you do get 10 points for using the underused word "lollygag."[/quote]

I don't think the 10 points you awarded were warranted because the word "lollygagging" is a baseball term.

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

pretty sure lollygagging is just English and had nothing to do with baseball.

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

bird-dog

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

[url=http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/lollygag]Lollygag - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary[/url]

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

Rob Jackson is a beast. Brian Orakpo is a beast. If I were Bruce Allen, I would definitely stronger consider trading Orakpo and re-signing Jackson. I'm not saying Bruce should trade Orakpo. I'm saying that he should consider trading him. Jackson has turned out to be a force on defense.

Rob Jackson's stock has definitely increased greatly.

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

[quote=REDSKINS4ever;983423]Rob Jackson is a beast. Brian Orakpo is a beast. If I were Bruce Allen, I would definitely stronger consider trading Orakpo and re-signing Jackson. I'm not saying Bruce should trade Orakpo. I'm saying that he should consider trading him. Jackson has turned out to be a force on defense.

Rob Jackson's stock has definitely increased greatly.[/quote]not much of a buy low-sell high kind of guy, are you?

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

I don't think we should expect Carriker to automatically be the same player when he returns. He's a bit long in the tooth and coming off a nasty injury, so it won't surprise me if he doesn't regain starter status for the 2013 season.

We already run a hybrid 3-4, switching between 4-3 looks and 3-4 looks pretty regularly. Our 4-3 package could be Kerrigan, Cofield, Turd Ferguson, Orakpo on the line and Riley, Fletch and Jackson behind em. The 3-4 look is Jenkins/Carriker, Cofield, Bowen on the line and Kerrigan, Fletcher, Riley, Orakpo/Jackson behind them.

We can keep both guys without breaking the bank. Orakpo's injury and lack of elite production works in our favor, and Jackson can be kept too.

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

[quote=REDSKINS4ever;983423]Rob Jackson is a beast. Brian Orakpo is a beast. If I were Bruce Allen, I would definitely stronger consider trading Orakpo and re-signing Jackson. I'm not saying Bruce should trade Orakpo. I'm saying that he should consider trading him. Jackson has turned out to be a force on defense.

Rob Jackson's stock has definitely increased greatly.[/quote]

It's a good idea, but could be hard getting a high pick for Orakpo given injury issues and lack of elite production. If we keep him, albeit on more favorable terms, and Jackson too we could see Orakpo pushed a little bit. Much like the Giants at their peak with a ton of talent along the front 7.

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

[quote=Southpaw;983357]Winning the NFC East does not discount the fact the Redskins still have to 28th ranked defense in the league. The rest of the team isn't so perfect that they can afford to disregard a principle of NFL defenses. They should be able to create pressure without having to rush six defenders, but since Orakpo went down that hasn't happened.

Ask the 2007 and 2011 Giants if[B] a pass rush is critical[/B].[/quote]

Winning does trumps all. We play to win, win division titles and Superbowls, not to lead the NFL in sacks stat.
If a pass rush and sacks are so "critical" (using your words), why is that of the [B]top 13 teams that led the NFL in sacks in 2012[/B] over half (eight) of them [B]did not even make the playoffs[/B]?
[url=http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/defense/sort/sacks]2012 NFL Team Defense Stats - National Football League - ESPN[/url]

I am not trying to discount the importance of sacks, just trying to say that it is a fraction of the game and they are not as critical as you and the media want to make it out to be. Stopping the run and running the ball take a back seat in the media coverage of the NFL that wants and tries to make it a Qb driven league and all that Bull Shit. Lost in all of this is our defense is ranked 5th at stopping the run and we are the #1*team at running the ball on offense.

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;983338]Because you're forgetting about Keenan Robinson[/quote]

To quote Alicia Silverstone in Clueless "My Bad!"

I guess we will just have to get rid of him because we just cannot tolerate that much talent on the defensive side of the ball.

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

[quote=Defensewins;983324]We won the NFC East with out Orakpo's pass rush pressure. How critical is that pressure?[/quote]

We'd still be better off with his pass rushing abilities.

We also won without Fred Davis and a number of key guys. Are they any less valuable going forward?

Re: Is there room for Orakpo and Rob Jackson?
 

cut their asses if they haven't been a part of this 7 game win streak, that's how i feel about it.