Re: Rex Grossman on NFL Radio Sunday
 

[quote=fanarchist;806167]I anticipated us trading back several times in the draft. That should have come as no surprise when you consider how they accumulated picks the previous year in the late rounds of the draft.

It's relatively easy to admit fault when it's already public knowledge that the fault belongs to you. Much more difficult to have the foresight to avoid a precarious situation before it blows up in your face. It wasn't a noble act for Shanny to create all that cryptic subterfuge after the first McNabb benching. LJ, Galloway and Parker never should have been on the team in the first place and this was my contension during last offseason. Sorry I don't have written proof to confirm that this is true, but you'll have to take my word for it. If a layman like me can make that distinction shouldn't the head coach be able to do the same. I'm not trying to boast. I'm just being honest.

I don't doubt Kyle's ability as an offensive coordinator, however I'm not convinced McNabb got a fair shake either.

As far as Grossman is concerned, the guy has done nothing meritorious in this league. [B]Even in his best year he threw equally as many interceptions as he did TDs in an offense heavily predictated on the run[/B]. If you can't avoid throwing interceptions when you're consistently staring at 8 man fronts there is something inherently wrong with your game. Then again I believe we never should have traded JC, but that's just me.[/quote]

Actually he threw 23 TD vs 20 INT

Re: Rex Grossman on NFL Radio Sunday
 

Well in 2010 Matt Schuab had 24 TD's and 12 INT. Is it the style of offense and QB taking chances or is it just the QB?

Re: Rex Grossman on NFL Radio Sunday
 

[quote=Mattyk;806174]Actually he threw 23 TD vs 20 INT[/quote]

You're right. I suppose I could have been perfectly concise by going to NFL.com and looking up the precise stats, but 3 more TDs than ints doesn't really discredit the point.

Re: Rex Grossman on NFL Radio Sunday
 

I hear ya, but that was 5 years ago and he's now in a much more QB friendly offense. He threw 7 TD vs 4 INT last year in just 3 starts. A much better ratio.

Re: Rex Grossman on NFL Radio Sunday
 

I just saw this posted by Kelli Johnson on Twitter, given the current discussion I was curious to hear what people thought about it:

"Let me say this.. I like Kyle, I like McNabb..What I don't like is the redkins looking for another scapegoat after they make another bad decision. They knew what they were getting in McNabb(he has 12 years of tape) So if he's not a good fit, don't trade for him! I'm done."

Re: Rex Grossman on NFL Radio Sunday
 

[quote=Mattyk;806195]I hear ya, but that was 5 years ago and he's now in a much more QB friendly offense. He threw 7 TD vs 4 INT last year in just 3 starts. A much better ratio.[/quote]

If you veiw it in those terms that's true. But I find it difficult to extrapolate playing 4 times as many games based on the result of 3. Reversing the ratio would make it easier to define. If he had played 12 games you could average out last 3 or 4. I don't know if it really works the other way around.

Re: Rex Grossman on NFL Radio Sunday
 

[quote=Ruhskins;806204]I just saw this posted by Kelli Johnson on Twitter, given the current discussion I was curious to hear what people thought about it:

"Let me say this.. I like Kyle, I like McNabb..What I don't like is the redkins looking for another scapegoat after they make another bad decision. They knew what they were getting in McNabb(he has 12 years of tape) So if he's not a good fit, don't trade for him! I'm done."[/quote]

Kelli Johnson for GM!

Re: Rex Grossman on NFL Radio Sunday
 

[quote=Ruhskins;806204]I just saw this posted by Kelli Johnson on Twitter, given the current discussion I was curious to hear what people thought about it:

"Let me say this.. I like Kyle, I like McNabb..What I don't like is the redkins looking for another scapegoat after they make another bad decision. They knew what they were getting in McNabb(he has 12 years of tape) So if he's not a good fit, don't trade for him! I'm done."[/quote]

The lovely Kelli Johnson hit the nail on the head.

Re: Rex Grossman on NFL Radio Sunday
 

[quote=Ruhskins;806204]I just saw this posted by Kelli Johnson on Twitter, given the current discussion I was curious to hear what people thought about it:

"Let me say this.. I like Kyle, I like McNabb..What I don't like is the redkins looking for another scapegoat after they make another bad decision. They knew what they were getting in McNabb(he has 12 years of tape) So if he's not a good fit, don't trade for him! I'm done."[/quote]

I don't they're scapegoating McNabb. They were looking for one guy and got another. It goes beyond the play on the field. It was the work ethic and the lack of dedication to his craft beyond the scenes. If you look at the tape, I'm willing to bet Shanahan thought he could help him fix some of his probems.

When you're trying to rebuild a team and trying to change the culture, and you're having a very public spat with another player over [i]their[/i] laziness, it doesn't help when your supposed quarterback [i]also[/i] has those issues.

It's not the player. I think they could've worked with the player. It was the guy. That's where the real problem came in.

Re: Rex Grossman on NFL Radio Sunday
 

Hard to "scapegoat" a guy that simply didn't play all that well and wasn't a great fit in this offense. Lesson learned hopefully everyone can move on.

Re: Rex Grossman on NFL Radio Sunday
 

[quote=NLC1054;806220]I don't they're scapegoating McNabb. They were looking for one guy and got another. It goes beyond the play on the field. It was the work ethic and the lack of dedication to his craft beyond the scenes. If you look at the tape, I'm willing to bet Shanahan thought he could help him fix some of his probems.

When you're trying to rebuild a team and trying to change the culture, and you're having a very public spat with another player over [i]their[/i] laziness, it doesn't help when your supposed quarterback [i]also[/i] has those issues.

It's not the player. I think they could've worked with the player. It was the guy. That's where the real problem came in.[/quote]


They are publicly blame shifting. Turning the focus from a poor system/player/personality evaluation to McNabb not wanting to wear a wristband, or McNabb not practicing with great urgency. If Shany would accept his portion of the blame I would consider it reciprocal fault, but he hasn't for the sake of maintaining appearences. Sounds like scapegoating to me.

Either that or Shanahan simply can't admit to himself, because of his own egocetricities, that he made a mistake.

If they wouldn't have publicly leaked this information his image would have remainded relatively untarnished and so would McNabb's. I think the fact that it came to light actually does more harm them good to Mike's image and to DMs stock. The fact that he couldn't motivate a guy that is obviously respected league wide indicates that he isn't as great of a leader of men as we initially thought.

Re: Rex Grossman on NFL Radio Sunday
 

I have a hard time believing that Mike and the organization would leak anything to disparage McNabb.

What does Mike have to gain by tarnishing McNabb's image? McNabb already has a nye-untradeable contract, but with teams panicky about the lockout and getting a veteran quarterback, some team might be desperate enough to cough up a few mid-round draft picks for him. It certainly doesn't help McNabb's trade value to leak [i]anything[/i] to the press.

Nor has Mike Shanahan ever come out publicly and bashed McNabb, and neither has Kyle for that matter. Everything we know about the situation has come from unnamed sources and what little the players have been willing to reveal about the situation. Mike Shanahan has commended McNabb's professionalism on numerous occasions.

And in a press conference (probably the season ending one), he did come out and say, as it pertained to McNabb's situation, that he wish he'd been more honest about the whole thing.

And the idea that Mike isn't a leader is kind of insulting to him. He did when two Super Bowls as a head coach, and I know he had John Elway, but let's not forget, Elway lost three Super Bowls before him. He had Terrell Davis, but TD was a sixth round draft pick. He's taken medicore quarterbacks and gotten to the playoffs. John Elway and Steve Young have both credited him with their success and their ability to win Super Bowls.

The guys here now clearly buy in, otherwise you wouldn't have such great player turnouts at this workouts. The players who didn't buy in will be gone. Accountability has returned to Redskins Park. He's managed to keep Dan Snyder out of Redskins Park in his offense.

I mean...think about this. Was anyone in Philly upset that he was leaving? I mean his teammates. Did anyone speak out against it? Did any players that mattered step and say "this is a bad move by Andy Reid and the organization". When Donovan came back to Philly in Week 5, the Eagles barely seemed phased by all the "revenge game" hype. No one seemed to be affected. They also stayed noticeably mum during both benching fiascos.

And out of that lockerroom, all the rumors that have come out about Donovan's lack of work habits, his lack of conditioning, his attitude...this is all stuff that played out in Philly. It just didn't explode the way it did here.

But Donovan, time and time and time again, gets the benefit of the doubt over his fellow players and his coaches.

I think what we're seeing now says more about Donovan than it does about Mike, or Kyle, or anyone in the front office. To paraphrase Katt Williams, no one says something about you for fifteen years if there's not some part of it that's true.

Re: Rex Grossman on NFL Radio Sunday
 

[quote=NLC1054;806285]I have a hard time believing that Mike and the organization would leak anything to disparage McNabb.

[B]What does Mike have to gain by tarnishing McNabb's image? [/B]McNabb already has a nye-untradeable contract, but with teams panicky about the lockout and getting a veteran quarterback, some team might be desperate enough to cough up a few mid-round draft picks for him. It certainly doesn't help McNabb's trade value to leak [i]anything[/i] to the press.......[/quote]

It helps to protect his sons reputation. Kyle made a great name for himself in Houston. However it has become very clear that offense in Houston is great with or with out Kyle. Kyle's first year in Washington did not go as expected. Say what you want about McNabb, but there has been a lot of negative information that has leaked out of Redskins headquarters. But I guess you think that is a coincidence.
It is also no secret that Mike wants Kyle to be the next Head Coach in DC. Don't need a road map to figure out what happened.

Re: Rex Grossman on NFL Radio Sunday
 

Kyle had the same problems McNabb had to deal with; he didn't have the offensive line they had in Houston, nor the weapons, and on top of all that, he was saddled with a quarterback that Mike traded for, [i]against his wishes[/i].

So he doesn't have any of the things that helped him succeed to begin with. He has a quarterback that not only doesn't really fit his scheme, but also has issues with work ethic and wants the offense to run more like the one he wants in Philly. And then he adds the things he doesn't really want in his offense (the screens, that stupid friggin' shovel pass that I hate with a fiery, deadly passion), and the guy [i]still[/i] has trouble with the offense.

Plus he doesn't talk to Kyle on the sidelines, doesn't practice hard during the week, doesn't put in all the film study he needs to...

It's kind of a two way street. I'm not saying Kyle wasn't part of the problem; I'm saying that Donovan McNabb was a part of the problem that no one wants to talk about.

And again; the same things we're hearing now are things that we heard about him in Philly. It's just amplified because this is the Redskins and it's apparently funny to watch the Redskins fail, or something.

The work ethic, the lack of conditioning, issues with wristbands and clock management problems, trouble spitting out the playcalls, the bad practice habits. None of this is really new news.

I don't think pretending Kyle's rep matters to Mike much, and if Kyle wasn't the right guy for the job, we'd have another offensive coordinator or Mike would take over as the coordinator by now.

And has Mike ever said he wants Kyle to be the next head coach in Washington?

At what point does McNabb also shoulder some of the blame is the only thing I want to know.

Re: Rex Grossman on NFL Radio Sunday
 

He might be the most productive QB for us out of all those Florida QBs that Spurrier coached. haha

Re: Rex Grossman on NFL Radio Sunday
 

I didn't say Mike leaked the story. I used the word they, meaning whom ever the unnamed but reliable sourses close to the redskins organization were. But just because it doesn't come from the mouth of the man doesn't mean the man was not involved.

If you leak something positive I guarantee it wouldn't hurt McNabb's stock. But that rarely occurs in the NOVA DC Metro area sports media.

I didn't say Mike Shanahan was not a leader. If you're going to critique my posts please don't infuse your own interpretation of my words and then critique yourself masquerading as me. What I said was....ah, no use in repeating myself it's right there in plain text for you to reread. And I'm well aware of his accomplishments, but thanks for the unnecessary history lesson.

I also never said Donovan was blameless. I said I was looking for a little equilibrium in the disbursement of blame. And perhaps a little more balance from you as well.

If the attitude problems all played out in Philly, why weren't our coaches able to speak to former teammates or former coaches to assess McNabb's personality issues prior to trading for him? Being that MS has been in the league for as many years as he has I'm certain he's built a rapport with several people who could give him an accurate depiction of McNabb's personal work habits.

Re: Rex Grossman on NFL Radio Sunday
 

For all we know, it could have been camp McNabb who leaked the info so that the Shanahans would be forced to cut him and thus he can choose where to go.

Re: Rex Grossman on NFL Radio Sunday
 

[quote=SirClintonPortis;806297]For all we know, it could have been camp McNabb who leaked the info so that the Shanahans would be forced to cut him and thus he can choose where to go.[/quote]

He's under contract. We're not really being forced to do anything. Especially with everthing at a stand still. But you never know.

Re: Rex Grossman on NFL Radio Sunday
 

[quote=fanarchist;806278]They are publicly blame shifting. Turning the focus from a poor system/player/personality evaluation to McNabb not wanting to wear a wristband, or McNabb not practicing with great urgency. If Shany would accept his portion of the blame I would consider it reciprocal fault, but he hasn't for the sake of maintaining appearences. Sounds like scapegoating to me.[/quote]I find the 'leaks' to be the most troubling part of the McNabb vs Kyle fiasco.
[quote=NLC1054;806285]But Donovan, time and time and time again, gets the benefit of the doubt over his fellow players and his coaches.[/quote]Benefit of the doubt?
McNabb's career speaks for itself.
Men lie.
Women lie.
Numbers don't.

Re: Rex Grossman on NFL Radio Sunday
 

[quote=NLC1054;806291]It's kind of a two way street. I'm not saying Kyle wasn't part of the problem; I'm saying that [I]Donovan McNabb was a part of the problem that no one wants to talk about[/I].[/quote]You might be new here so maybe you didn't know.
But, I do believe you the order mixed up.
Most Redskin's fans readily talk about and blame McNabb.
And conversely most fans give Kyle a pass.

[quote]I don't think pretending Kyle's rep matters to Mike much, and if Kyle wasn't the right guy for the job, we'd have another offensive coordinator or Mike would take over as the coordinator by now.[/quote]Just out of curiosity do you have kids?
There is no way Mike would take over as playcaller, and if it did happen there is no way that would get leaked.
Mike isn't going end his own sons coaching career by stripping him of playcalling duties, ain't gonna happen.

Re: Rex Grossman on NFL Radio Sunday
 

[quote=30gut;806309]You might be new here so maybe you didn't know.
But, I do believe you the order mixed up.
Most Redskin's fans readily talk about and blame McNabb.
And conversely most fans give Kyle a pass.

Just out of curiosity do you have kids?
There is no way Mike would take over as playcaller, and if it did happen there is no way that would get leaked.
Mike isn't going end his own sons coaching career by stripping him of playcalling duties, ain't gonna happen.[/quote]

Thank you 30gut, you beat me to the reply. I am not sure where NLC1050 has been the last 9 months, but majority of the blame has been on McNabb. It really does not matter if it is right or wrong, it just is the truth. As pretty as we want the Shanahan family partnership/experiment to be, nepotism unfortunately has many down sides.

Re: Rex Grossman on NFL Radio Sunday
 

[quote=fanarchist;806278][B]They are publicly blame shifting. Turning the focus from a poor system/player/personality evaluation to McNabb not wanting to wear a wristband, or McNabb not practicing with great urgency.[/B] If Shany would accept his portion of the blame I would consider it reciprocal fault, but he hasn't for the sake of maintaining appearences. Sounds like scapegoating to me.

Either that or Shanahan simply can't admit to himself, because of his own egocetricities, that he made a mistake.

If they wouldn't have publicly leaked this information his image would have remainded relatively untarnished and so would McNabb's. I think the fact that it came to light actually does more harm them good to Mike's image and to DMs stock. The fact that he couldn't motivate a guy that is obviously respected league wide indicates that he isn't as great of a leader of men as we initially thought.[/quote]

Sorry for being late to the party but .... I don't see it as shifting blame, it's simply more information coming out. They came out and said this is why we benched him, then some how the wrist band incident came out, I'd guess there might have been maybe a couple of other issue's that we fans just don't know about. We fans need to stop making excuses for McNabb and look at the whole picture. McNabb did have all these issue's. Heck, some of us here were against the team picking up McNabb and some of us pointed out flaws we were concerned with him and they showed up on the field, ie; he's no longer the elusive QB he used to be due to his knees, he has no sense of urgency, he has no clock management for the 2 min. drill, etc. etc. These qualities are not the type MS or KS needed to run their scheme.

I won't put all the blame on McNabb though our OL sucked, only 1 WR, terrible run blocking.....

Re: Rex Grossman on NFL Radio Sunday
 

[quote=SBXVII;806336]Sorry for being late to the party but .... I don't see it as shifting blame, it's simply more information coming out. They came out and said this is why we benched him, then some how the wrist band incident came out, I'd guess there might have been maybe a couple of other issue's that we fans just don't know about. We fans need to stop making excuses for McNabb and look at the whole picture. McNabb did have all these issue's. Heck, some of us here were against the team picking up McNabb and some of us pointed out flaws we were concerned with him and they showed up on the field, ie; he's no longer the elusive QB he used to be due to his knees, he has no sense of urgency, he has no clock management for the 2 min. drill, etc. etc. These qualities are not the type MS or KS needed to run their scheme.

I won't put all the blame on McNabb though our OL sucked, only 1 WR, terrible run blocking.....[/quote]


I don't feel like I'm making excuses for McNabb. I've addressed the topic in previous posts. Saying I don't think McNabb is blameless in this senario. Even in my post that you quoted I go on to use the phrase "reciprocal fault", meaning that I feel both parties shoulder a portion of the responsibility for the maladriot fashion in which our offense functioned. However, I don't consider it an honorable move to deride and defame McNabb in the mainstream media, regardless of who it was who actually leaked the information. The way I percieve it, it's an underhanded tactic used to distort a well rounded focus on all the contributing factors in our poor offensive production, to shifting the blame to a single man. It's fine if you don't see it that way. You're entitled to your perspective.

I still contend that McNabb is the best QB on our roster. Just like I believed Campbell was the best QB on our roster before we traded for McNabb. Where's JC now, sweeping divisions on the west coast in his first season. Granted it's not as dominant of a division, but they still face the Chargers twice a season. A team that last year was top 10 in both passing offense and defense. No small feat. Do I know what the future holds for Beck or Grossman in this offense, no. But if it comes down to either of them playing starting QB for the Redskins, I'll be right there hoping for both prosperity and success. All I'm doing is stating what is currently an irrefutable fact. McNabb is the best QB on our roster.

Re: Rex Grossman on NFL Radio Sunday
 

He may be the best QB on the roster but more importantly he's shown he's not the best fit for this offense.

Re: Rex Grossman on NFL Radio Sunday
 

[quote=Mattyk;806352]He may be the best QB on the roster but more importantly he's shown he's not the best fit for this offense.[/quote]

With the * that Kyle wasn't keen on having him run the offense from the beginning. I don't feel like your statement is an irrevocable truth when you consider the possibility that he wasn't given all the tools he needed to succeed. I think great coaches have to adapt to the personel that they are given, or that they inherit. I think that instead of working in concert for the betterment of the collective whole, there was an underlying power struggle between McNabb and Kyle. Both parties effected the outcome, but it's a coaches job to make his players feel comfortable, welcome and like there is an open line of communication, not simply to impose their will without any outside input.

Re: Rex Grossman on NFL Radio Sunday
 

Kyle added stuff to the offense that clearly was more like stuff they run in Philly than it was stuff that he ran in Houston. In the second half of the season (after the benching), there were a lot more plays that "McNabb would be comfortable with" called.

It might be a coaches' job to make his players feel comfortable, but it's a player's job to go out and execute the plays as called. Donovan just didn't execute the way he was supposed to.

And there probably was a power struggle, but I think it had as much to do with veteran hard-headedness as it did with Kyle being slow to change his offense.

It's give and take. Even not wanting McNabb, I very much believe Kyle wanted to make it work. It didn't.

Re: Rex Grossman on NFL Radio Sunday
 

[quote=fanarchist;806362]With the * that Kyle wasn't keen on having him run the offense from the beginning. I don't feel like your statement is an irrevocable truth when you consider the possibility that he wasn't given all the tools he needed to succeed. I think great coaches have to adapt to the personel that they are given, or that they inherit. I think that instead of working in concert for the betterment of the collective whole, there was an underlying power struggle between McNabb and Kyle. Both parties effected the outcome, but it's a coaches job to make his players feel comfortable, welcome and like there is an open line of communication, not simply to impose their will without any outside input.[/quote]

Obviously for whatever reasons Kyle S. and McNabb just didn't mesh. I'm not going to pretend to know who's more at fault or more to blame, at this point it's just best for both parties to chalk it up as a mistake and move on.

Re: Rex Grossman on NFL Radio Sunday
 

[quote=Mattyk;806377]Obviously for whatever reasons Kyle S. and McNabb just didn't mesh. I'm not going to pretend to know who's more at fault or more to blame, at this point it's just best for both parties to chalk it up as a mistake and move on.[/quote]

Agreed.

Re: Rex Grossman on NFL Radio Sunday
 

[quote=NLC1054;806372]Kyle added stuff to the offense that clearly was more like stuff they run in Philly than it was stuff that he ran in Houston. In the second half of the season (after the benching), there were a lot more plays that "McNabb would be comfortable with" called.

It might be a coaches' job to make his players feel comfortable, but it's a player's job to go out and execute the plays as called. Donovan just didn't execute the way he was supposed to.

And there probably was a power struggle, but I think it had as much to do with veteran hard-headedness as it did with Kyle being slow to change his offense.

It's give and take. Even not wanting McNabb, I very much believe Kyle wanted to make it work. It didn't.[/quote]


You're right. Eventually Kyle implemented a screen game. My question is why didn't he concede to doing it earlier in the season when we were having some fundamental problems in the run game? Not to say that screens cure all that ails, but it's definitely a proven and effective method to manifest some of the yards lost from forcing the run. They also help to expand a condensed and over persuing defense opening the middle of the field for quick slants and drag routes across the middle. The Saints use them. So do the Patriots and Indy runs designed wheel routes out of the backfield which essentially serves the same purpose. The Chargers, the Jags, Dallas. Obviously Philly uses the screen with great frequency and success.

I believe this is the forth time now that I'm saying that McNabb played his part in the downward spiraling.

If Kyle truly wanted to make it work he would have recognized DMs skill set and adapted his offense earlier.

Re: Rex Grossman on NFL Radio Sunday
 

Well I don't think it's like we didn't run screens at all before then. We just didn't run them with the frequency that we did later in the season.

You have to look at the circumstances of the game. The first Dallas game was just a struggle no matter what was the case. Versus the Texans, we were ripping their secondary to shreds, so the screen game becomes less neccessary.

Versus the Rams, the run game was functional enough that they did need to use the screen game. Torain exploded versus the Eagles the next week.

The Packers killed us defensively, and maybe using more screens would've been key there. But then you have Torain running for over 100 yards for Indy the next week (where they still ran some screen plays), and then he rushed for 100 versus the Bears in a team that's not suspetible to getting fooled by screens.

I think the Lions game is where we start to see them used more frequently, which is apparently where all the trouble really started to take place.

The screens worked to great effectiveness versus the Titans the following week, but the Giants were ready for it the next week and completely killed the screen game, which seemed like it was our whole gameplan. The same thing goes for the Vikings game the week after that. And then the next week you have Torain bulldozing every one in Tampa.

So when you go back and look at the game situations and how the team did and looked offensively, McNabb had trouble running the offense that Kyle wanted. And then when Kyle implemented more things McNabb was more comfortable with, McNabb [i]still[/i] had more trouble with it.

Once teams figured out we were going to be running more screen passes, they did a better job of stopping us from using them. And that forced McNabb to play more within the regular offense, which he couldn't execute.

Re: Rex Grossman on NFL Radio Sunday
 

fanarchist,
[QUOTE] However, I don't consider it an honorable move to deride and defame McNabb in the mainstream media, regardless of who it was who actually leaked the information. The way I percieve it, it's an underhanded tactic used to distort a well rounded focus on all the contributing factors in our poor offensive production, to shifting the blame to a single man.[/QUOTE]

Honestly, I don't think any of us really have any idea what actually went on. Unless you work for the team and stood there and observed everything you really don't know. What were the play calls? what was McNabb supposed to do? where was the ball supposed to go? did the OL break down? did the WR run the right route? etc. etc. etc. The only people who know what was right and wrong with each play is the coaching staff and the players. Maybe it is all one sided.... maybe it is all McNabb? We don't know.

In regards to the public issue's, people can't have it two ways. I loved Gibbs and how he coached. I grew up with that. Anything went wrong it was on him. Even when we fans knew that it might have been specific players on different plays Gibbs told the media it was he who screwed up. I'm totally with you on the not putting the dirty laundry through the media. However Shanahan is not that type of coach. No one cares that Haynesworth's crap is happening through the media because he's a douche. The only reason people are upset about McNabb's dirty laundry being aired through the media is because he's a nice guy. Doesn't mean the info is not true it just means his talent level is diminishing due to age and because he's a nice guy people are upset about it being made public.

Matty,
[QUOTE]He may be the best QB on the roster but more importantly he's shown he's not the best fit for this offense.[/QUOTE]

Totally agree with you. Except the best QB is on the downward slide and if Grossman is picked back up then we have a QB who is stagnant. Then you have Beck.... who now is supposed to be "the man."

fanarchist,
[QUOTE]I think great coaches have to adapt to the personel that they are given, or that they inherit.[/QUOTE]

Totally with you. What sets coach's apart is how well they use their players talents. Except I would still argue that although our coaching staff said the Skins were not "rebuilding" and did not dump everyone and start anew by "rebuilding" I still feel they are "rebuilding." Had it not been then the offense might have been the same somewhat because Zorn already implimented the WCO but the defense was a 4-3 and the team would have continued to use that and only dabbled with the 3-4 until they got the right personell. Instead they went all in as in "rebuilding" and implimented the 3-4 in hopes that most of the players will understand it better and that they would only have to change a few pieces.

NLC,
[QUOTE]It might be a coaches' job to make his players feel comfortable, but it's a player's job to go out and execute the plays as called. [B]Donovan just didn't execute the way he was supposed to.[/B][/QUOTE]

and there in lies the problem. Although coach's should use the talent they have, players must be adaptable also. I'm sure the player adapted from little league to high school. They adapted from high school to college. and they adapted from college to the pro's. They should be able to adapt from one scheme to the next but we all need to remember McNabb was under one system for how long? He's getting old and starting to wear down. Right now McNabb's perfect situation would be to be on a team with an excellent OL to block for him and give him all day in the pocket to throw. Unfortunatly Shanahan's system is not that, it's got more roll outs and the second issue is our OL sucked, why? new scheme and new blocking style.

Re: Rex Grossman on NFL Radio Sunday
 

[quote=NLC1054;806396]Well I don't think it's like we didn't run screens at all before then. We just didn't run them with the frequency that we did later in the season.

You have to look at the circumstances of the game. The first Dallas game was just a struggle no matter what was the case. Versus the Texans, we were ripping their secondary to shreds, so the screen game becomes less neccessary.

Versus the Rams, the run game was functional enough that they did need to use the screen game. Torain exploded versus the Eagles the next week.

The Packers killed us defensively, and maybe using more screens would've been key there. But then you have Torain running for over 100 yards for Indy the next week (where they still ran some screen plays), and then he rushed for 100 versus the Bears in a team that's not suspetible to getting fooled by screens.

I think the Lions game is where we start to see them used more frequently, which is apparently where all the trouble really started to take place.

The screens worked to great effectiveness versus the Titans the following week, but the Giants were ready for it the next week and completely killed the screen game, which seemed like it was our whole gameplan. The same thing goes for the Vikings game the week after that. And then the next week you have Torain bulldozing every one in Tampa.

So when you go back and look at the game situations and how the team did and looked offensively, McNabb had trouble running the offense that Kyle wanted. And then when Kyle implemented more things McNabb was more comfortable with, McNabb [I]still[/I] had more trouble with it.

Once teams figured out we were going to be running more screen passes, they did a better job of stopping us from using them. And that forced McNabb to play more within the regular offense, which he couldn't execute.[/quote]

Also the screen is usually used against teams with aggressive defenses. The reason it was used more frequently might have been that other teams realized our OL sucked and they had pretty good chances at getting to the QB so the QB might have changed what ever play was called to a screen if he saw the rush was coming.

Might also be why KS favored Grossman over McNabb.

Re: Rex Grossman on NFL Radio Sunday
 

There are very few Qb's that can come into a new system, new team, with new teammates that are frankly substandard and expect do well. Not only did our offensive line, Rb's and Wr's suck last year [B]and the year before[/B], but our defense was awful. I think the expectation level placed on McNabb on the part of the Shanahan's, the press and the fans was unrealistic. There was this unspoken and unrealistic expectation that McNabb was going to make us a playoff team. I think the people that are still bashing Mcnabb still believe we are a Qb away from being a playoff team. We are not.
But then again when are the expectation levels of the Redskins fans realistic? The part that gets to me about this whole situation is in less than one season the Shanahan's made up their mind about Donovan and they did not allow for the normal learning curve process to take place. Then add to that the mysterious leaks that nobody has MAN-ed up to. The guy that made the leaks is still hiding like a big pussy.
At least Haslett has the balls to man up about his recent comments on AH.

Re: Rex Grossman on NFL Radio Sunday
 

Wasn't one of the things McNabb used to be renowned for is making a bunch of unknown and less than talented receivers look like star talent?

And that doesn't explain how Rex friggin' Grossman, with the same weapons, with the same bad o-line, with the same playcaller, was able to come in, after not playing for a year (whether he knew the offense or didn't) and was able to at least appear to play well and milk more production out of those weapons.

Jay Cutler had to learn a completely different offense, coming off a bad year, with a bad offensive line, and only one Pro Bowl receiver, and the other favorite target he had was benched by the offensive coordinator. He struggled at first, but over the course of the year, you saw that he was getting more and more comfortable with the offense.

Mike Martz molded his offense to things Jay was more comfortable doing, and Jay became more comfortable running Martz offense.

This notion that Donovan didn't have enough time in the offense is silly. We traded for him in April. He was at every OTA, every minicamp, had a whole training camp, two preseason games and thirteen regular season games to get a handle of the offense. Kyle added things he was more comfortable with and he still couldn't run it. He just wasn't a fit here, and was apparently a little hard-headed and wanted to do things his way.

The best offensive coordinator/quarterback relationships come from a willingness to work together. At some point, it became clear that there wasn't going to be a middle ground found between the two.

I am under no delusions that we are anywhere close to being a playoff team. Far friggin' from it. I think we're closer to being decent than we are from being cellar dwellers, but playoff teams are built, and we still have a lot of building to do.

And rather than getting upset about who leaked what, why not get upset by the fact that, instead of being interested in winning football games and being better, McNabb was more concerned with the fact that wearing an wristband would make him "look bad".

Why not get upset that he didn't practice hard? That he's the last guy on the practice field instead of the first? That he wasn't in the best condition?

I respect what McNabb has done in the past, and I think the organization had a hand in some of the shennigans that happened, but McNabb had more than his fair share to do with it. That's all anyone is saying.

The blame is shared.

Re: Rex Grossman on NFL Radio Sunday
 

[quote=NLC1054;806428]Wasn't one of the things McNabb used to be renowned for is making a bunch of unknown and less than talented receivers look like star talent?

And that doesn't explain how Rex friggin' Grossman, with the same weapons, with the same bad o-line, with the same playcaller, was able to come in, after not playing for a year (whether he knew the offense or didn't) and was able to at least appear to play well and milk more production out of those weapons.

Jay Cutler had to learn a completely different offense, coming off a bad year, with a bad offensive line, and only one Pro Bowl receiver, and the other favorite target he had was benched by the offensive coordinator. He struggled at first, but over the course of the year, you saw that he was getting more and more comfortable with the offense.

Mike Martz molded his offense to things Jay was more comfortable doing, and Jay became more comfortable running Martz offense.

This notion that Donovan didn't have enough time in the offense is silly. We traded for him in April. He was at every OTA, every minicamp, had a whole training camp, two preseason games and thirteen regular season games to get a handle of the offense. Kyle added things he was more comfortable with and he still couldn't run it. He just wasn't a fit here, and was apparently a little hard-headed and wanted to do things his way.

The best offensive coordinator/quarterback relationships come from a willingness to work together. At some point, it became clear that there wasn't going to be a middle ground found between the two.

I am under no delusions that we are anywhere close to being a playoff team. Far friggin' from it. I think we're closer to being decent than we are from being cellar dwellers, but playoff teams are built, and we still have a lot of building to do.

And rather than getting upset about who leaked what, why not get upset by the fact that, instead of being interested in winning football games and being better, McNabb was more concerned with the fact that wearing an wristband would make him "look bad".

Why not get upset that he didn't practice hard? That he's the last guy on the practice field instead of the first? That he wasn't in the best condition?

I respect what McNabb has done in the past, and I think the organization had a hand in some of the shennigans that happened, but McNabb had more than his fair share to do with it. That's all anyone is saying.

The blame is shared.[/quote]
This.

I hate that this devolved into a blame game between Kyle and Donovan because at the end of the day it's meaningless.

Here's the forward spin, Kyle will be here in 2011 (and beyond) and Donovan won't. With what Grossman said, are we in good hands with a QB who is totally bought in and experienced in the system-as flawed as he is?

Re: Rex Grossman on NFL Radio Sunday
 

[quote=NLC1054;806428][B]Wasn't one of the things McNabb used to be renowned for is making a bunch of unknown and less than talented receivers look like star talent?[/B]

And that doesn't explain how Rex friggin' Grossman, with the same weapons, with the same bad o-line, with the same playcaller, was able to come in, after not playing for a year (whether he knew the offense or didn't) and was able to at least appear to play well and milk more production out of those weapons.

Jay Cutler had to learn a completely different offense, coming off a bad year, with a bad offensive line, and only one Pro Bowl receiver, and the other favorite target he had was benched by the offensive coordinator. He struggled at first, but over the course of the year, you saw that he was getting more and more comfortable with the offense.

Mike Martz molded his offense to things Jay was more comfortable doing, and Jay became more comfortable running Martz offense.

This notion that Donovan didn't have enough time in the offense is silly. We traded for him in April. He was at every OTA, every minicamp, had a whole training camp, two preseason games and thirteen regular season games to get a handle of the offense. Kyle added things he was more comfortable with and he still couldn't run it. He just wasn't a fit here, and was apparently a little hard-headed and wanted to do things his way.

The best offensive coordinator/quarterback relationships come from a willingness to work together. At some point, it became clear that there wasn't going to be a middle ground found between the two.

I am under no delusions that we are anywhere close to being a playoff team. Far friggin' from it. I think we're closer to being decent than we are from being cellar dwellers, but playoff teams are built, and we still have a lot of building to do.

And rather than getting upset about who leaked what, why not get upset by the fact that, instead of being interested in winning football games and being better, McNabb was more concerned with the fact that wearing an wristband would make him "look bad".

Why not get upset that he didn't practice hard? That he's the last guy on the practice field instead of the first? That he wasn't in the best condition?

I respect what McNabb has done in the past, and I think the organization had a hand in some of the shennigans that happened, but McNabb had more than his fair share to do with it. That's all anyone is saying.

The blame is shared.[/quote]

Yes, when he has a good offensive line in front of him that can pass protect, something he did not have last year.
How long has Rex Grossman been in Kyle Shanhan's system? Grossman, who was with the Houston Texans with Kyle Shanahan in 2009 and came to Washington with him last year, is much more familiar with the system and the way the coordinator wants it executed.

How funny that you mention Cutler. He is exactly what I am talking about being given a second year to get used his new offense system. McNabb and Cutlers numbers are near identical their first year with the new team.

Culter in 2009 (first year with Chicago):
QB rating of 76.8, threw 26 interceptions and was sacked 35 times

Donovan in 2010:
QB rating 77.1, threw 15 interceptions and was sacked 37 times.

[url=http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/06/07/kyle-shanahan-emerges-as-a-full-blown-control-freak/related/]Kyle Shanahan emerges as a full-blown control freak | ProFootballTalk[/url]

Re: Rex Grossman on NFL Radio Sunday
 

[QUOTE=NLC1054;806396]Well I don't think it's like we didn't run screens at all before then. We just didn't run them with the frequency that we did later in the season.

You have to look at the circumstances of the game. The first Dallas game was just a struggle no matter what was the case. Versus the Texans, we were ripping their secondary to shreds, so the screen game becomes less neccessary.

Versus the Rams, the run game was functional enough that they did need to use the screen game. Torain exploded versus the Eagles the next week.

The Packers killed us defensively, and maybe using more screens would've been key there. But then you have Torain running for over 100 yards for Indy the next week (where they still ran some screen plays), and then he rushed for 100 versus the Bears in a team that's not suspetible to getting fooled by screens.

I think the Lions game is where we start to see them used more frequently, which is apparently where all the trouble really started to take place.

The screens worked to great effectiveness versus the Titans the following week, but the Giants were ready for it the next week and completely killed the screen game, which seemed like it was our whole gameplan. The same thing goes for the Vikings game the week after that. And then the next week you have Torain bulldozing every one in Tampa.

So when you go back and look at the game situations and how the team did and looked offensively, McNabb had trouble running the offense that Kyle wanted. And then when Kyle implemented more things McNabb was more comfortable with, McNabb [i]still[/i] had more trouble with it.

Once teams figured out we were going to be running more screen passes, they did a better job of stopping us from using them. And that forced McNabb to play more within the regular offense, which he couldn't execute.[/QUOTE]

I don't have every piece of game film from last season at my immediate disposal so I can't offer undeniable proof that we didn't run designed screens early on, but I'm guessing neither do you. I do, however, distincly recall asking myself early on in the season why we weren't running more screens in warrented senarios when I thought it should have been a weapon in a balanced offensive attack. What I do know is that in the win loss column McNabb was 4-4 (not superlative, but not wretched either) prior to the week 8 move into a more frequently used screen attack afterwhich his record plummeted to a feeble 1-4. In the 4-4 early stretch when we weren't running as many screens only 1 of the 4 games you could say was determined by RB output. In the other three we never rushed for 100 yds. Anytime an offense becomes one demensional and predictable you're going to get your card pulled.

I don't think the designed RB screens or the flanker screens or RB wheel routes or single read quick check downs are the way you win football games. I believe that they are simply a tool that should be used situationally to keep a defense off balance and guessing. When we became a predominant screen team it tended to be more pandering and excessive then it should have been. It became a central focal point and not a finite aspect of a larger concept. If you could win with McNabb prior to a screen game and without a dominant run game, which his record proves possible, why can't you win with him after employing a screen game. Perhaps it's because the play calling changed and it became overkill in Kyle's gameplan. I don't know for certain. I don't think McNabb was in the huddle changing plays or audiblizing to screens at the line.

You can't justifiably give a very generic and basic overview of every game and exclaim with any true conviction that we could have used screens in this game, but not in this one. The screen is a situational call. Just like a series of specific conditions must be present to brew the perfect storm. You can't just say, oh, look it's cloudy out there's probably going to be a tornado.

Re: Rex Grossman on NFL Radio Sunday
 

[quote=Paintrain;806441]This.

I hate that this devolved into a blame game between Kyle and Donovan because at the end of the day it's meaningless.

Here's the forward spin, Kyle will be here in 2011 (and beyond) and Donovan won't. With what Grossman said, are we in good hands with a QB who is totally bought in and experienced in the system-as flawed as he is?[/quote]

I'm sorry you hate the de-evolution of this conversation. But some people are looking to define their opinions on whether or not Kyle directly contributed to Donovan's downfall in DC. If he sabotaged a guy who some of us consider a capable QB. I can't deny that McNabb won't be here and Kyle will. I'm more curious as to whether McNabb will join another team and be yet another name in a long list of former redskins players who were released prematurely, criticized to harshly and regained their glory on someone elses roster.

At some point you have to learn from past mistakes. Just seems like we hire different faces to make the same ones.

Re: Rex Grossman on NFL Radio Sunday
 

To me having a bad line shows me a QB's floor. I wouldn't expect McNabb to put up Peyton Manning type numbers given the level of play up front for most of the year however he still should have been able to put up much more respectable numbers then he did last year. QB ratings might be overrated and granted two of his int's were Hail Mary's at the end of the first half.

However he still threw a terribly low amount of TD passes, which wouldn't have been so bad, if he wasn't throwing for a virtually equal amount of Int's. Seriously if you're going to throw 14 touchdowns in a pass happy offense, with a defense on the other side that as shaky as they were at times, was designed to get turnovers and create a short field, well lets just say I expected more from someone that was the same caliber as McNabb.

Also we keep talking about how bad the receivers were, yet he still had Moss, Cooley, and Armstrong this past year along with Keiland on check downs. Not world beaters by any means but lets not try to pass this off as he didn't have anyone to throw to. And further more people may want to say that Armstrong was a product of McNabb, fact of the matter is he got better when Grossman got the job.

Even Cutler with his regrettable 2009 season was able to post 27 TD's (to 26 Int's) with a lesser receiving corps and line. Obviously not ideal, however if you're going to throw a bunch of Int's you better give me a bunch of TD's as well.

Re: Rex Grossman on NFL Radio Sunday
 

[quote=Paintrain;806441]
Here's the forward spin, Kyle will be here in 2011 (and beyond) and Donovan won't. With what Grossman said, are we in good hands with a QB who is totally bought in and experienced in the system-as flawed as he is?[/quote]

You know...I kinda always thought Rex go a raw deal in Chicago. That run the Bears made to the Super Bowl, the Bears has a top flight defense, sure. But they also had the number one scoring [i]offense[/i].

There's no doubt he struggled, and maybe he wasn't as dedicated to his craaft as he should've been there. But the Bears also never seem overly concerned with developing their quarterbacks (see: not drafting Jay Cutler a single wide receiver in this year's draft) and instead are keen to rely on their defense, sometimes to the detriment. I mean, who's the last franchise quarterback the Bears had?

But he strikes me as a guy who needs a new start, and this system seems to suit what he does well. His decision is still damn near baffling sometimes, but looking at the situations from this season, I can really only think of two interceptions that were really his fault, and better offensive line play might help us to avoid that nasty problem he has with fumbling.

(And to his credit, when he did fumble the ball, most of the times it seems like he was making an effort to cover up the ball, when he wasn't getting blindsided by the rush).

He's older, wiser, he knows what Mike and Kyle expect out of their starting quarterback. He might not take us to a Super Bowl, but as a one or two year stop gap, I'm fine with him. I think he's willing to put the work in and can be effective, and if anyone can help mold a quarterback into a more productive player, it's Mike Shanahan.

I mean he took Gus Ferrotte to the friggin' playoffs, after all.