Re: Football Outsiders: Worst rated CBs in the NFL in 2010 (DeAngelo ranked #2)
 

[quote=Dogtag;789727]One has to look at statiscal analysis and ask the questions (1) Does this make sense to me? and (2) Is this painting a whole picture?[/quote]

Exactly!
Revis and Newman are on the list too. I would love to have both of those guys.

Statistics aren't based on game film and don't factor in the the most important part of good coverage, A passrush!

No cornerback can cover for an extended period of time and that includes Deion and Darrell in their prime.

I hate Dhall but these rankings are bullshit. Hall is a gambler who times when he is going to jump his route based on the blitz package and reading the route. If the blitz is picked up, He gets burned because he is out of position. If the blitz is successful and they try to make a quick throw, Dhall will pick it off. My gripe with Hall is that he plays off too much hoping for an errant throw instead of pressing the WR and forcing a perfect throw.

The Redskins had very little pressure all year and the worst free safety play in the league. I'm shocked that Rogers isn't on the list...


Also, A quote from the author:
[quote]One thing I want to make clear. Both in this article, and in Wednesday's, people seem to be confusing "presentation of numbers" with "analysis." This isn't analysis. This is presentation of numbers. The ranking in a single statistical metric does not tell you a player's worth. You need to look at the whole picture in context. I'm honestly not even trying to do that in this article.
[/quote]

Re: Football Outsiders: Worst rated CBs in the NFL in 2010 (DeAngelo ranked #2)
 

I'd be more concerned with our TEAM EFFICIENCY RATINGS - 20F-ing7th (27th)
[url=http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teameff]FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | 2010 TEAM EFFICIENCY RATINGS[/url]

Re: Football Outsiders: Worst rated CBs in the NFL in 2010 (DeAngelo ranked #2)
 

[quote=44ever;789755]I don't only like him because he is flashy. [B]I see the potential he possesses and I see what hinders it.[/B] And yes, I say build a better, more aggressive D around him, and his style will pay off.

Do I think he's the best? No. But I believe he is better than some say he is. There are other guys on the Skins that I could say the same about.[/quote]Laziness in preparation? Lack of attention to detail?

My problem with the "style" argument is that DeAngelo Hall's defenses are never, ever good no matter where he is. While it's true that safety play behind Hall has generally been quite poor, it seems weird to try to argue that as a defense -- and then look at his style as anything but problematic.

In short, Hall takes risks that generate some (though I don't think a lot of) turnovers, but the defensive teams he plays for struggle every single year anyway. Among other things, those teams need tighter coverage in the secondary. And even as he's matured, it never comes from Hall.

Re: Football Outsiders: Worst rated CBs in the NFL in 2010 (DeAngelo ranked #2)
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;789773]Way overpaid too, leave that to Vinny. I would take Rogers over Hall, he might have stone hands but at least he can cover and tackle. Can't stand his punk attitude and starting shit with his big mouth, I'd rather have Barnes and Rogers as CB's.[/quote]

Barnes as a starter over Hall?
Serioulsly?
The jury is waaaaaay out on Barnes.

Re: Football Outsiders: Worst rated CBs in the NFL in 2010 (DeAngelo ranked #2)
 

[quote=Alvin Walton;789778]Barnes as a starter over Hall?
Serioulsly?
The jury is waaaaaay out on Barnes.[/quote]

This is his 3rd year with the team, he showed potential last year. He must be given a chance, I like the fact that he is a smart player (high score on the Wonderlic test) and is not afraid to tackle unlike Hall.

[url]http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/apr/23/barnes-licks-the-wonderlic/[/url]

Re: Football Outsiders: Worst rated CBs in the NFL in 2010 (DeAngelo ranked #2)
 

This is why I believe people need to stop making excuses for Hall:

He signed with us around his 25th birthday, and even though he was jettisoned from Oakland, he was a good pickup for the rest of that season (though Vinny cut valuable depth at the same position to get him), because he played really well and Smoot was a big problem. It's not Hall's fault that Vinny overpaid the market for Hall.

But he turned 26 in 2009 and 27 in 2010. And he wasn't good either year. Theoretically, however, [B]those should have been his best years in coverage[/B]. If Hall was capable of playing with the focus he showed in the 2008 season for us, he might have justified his contract value. But this guy was a first round talent who two organizations gave up on. The fact that Vinny paid out and Hall went back to being the player he always was shouldn't have come as a surprise.

Either that's a character flaw in Hall - he can only focus on the task at hand when money is an issue, or it's not a flaw in character, but that his lack of game to game focus is more of who DeAngelo Hall is -- and has always been.

And neither line of reasoning is going to save the Redskins pass defense next year. That will take drastic measures: separating from the poor performers and aggressively trying to replace them with young talent in the front seven. Of course, that would all come at the expense of the offense, which is why I believe Hall will uphold the status quo for one more season.

Re: Football Outsiders: Worst rated CBs in the NFL in 2010 (DeAngelo ranked #2)
 

[quote=44ever;789765]I didn't hear anyone complaining about our season opener.

– DeAngelo Hall returned a fumble for a score and Graham Gano kicked two field goals, as the Redskins held on to edge the Cowboys, 13-7.

We can all thank D.Hall for the only win of the season that actually counted for anything. (Beating the Cowboys)

[IMG]http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRKw2sHZFRo2qzudhZZVFHRiQcsFAXDvAOonz_ZXtf0bQXhJ5O30A[/IMG][/quote]



NO 44! Hall haters don't care if he beat Dallas remember?????????

Re: Football Outsiders: Worst rated CBs in the NFL in 2010 (DeAngelo ranked #2)
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;789781]NO 44! Hall haters don't care if he beat Dallas remember?????????[/quote]

And Gano had 3 game winning FG's.

Re: Football Outsiders: Worst rated CBs in the NFL in 2010 (DeAngelo ranked #2)
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;789781]NO 44! Hall haters don't care if he beat Dallas remember?????????[/quote]Wasn't Hall the only player to allow a TD pass in that game?

Re: Football Outsiders: Worst rated CBs in the NFL in 2010 (DeAngelo ranked #2)
 

[quote=GTripp0012;789783]Wasn't Hall the only player to allow a TD pass in that game?[/quote]

Yes to Austin but he still made the biggest play of the game..

Re: Football Outsiders: Worst rated CBs in the NFL in 2010 (DeAngelo ranked #2)
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;789784]Yes to Austin but he still made the biggest play of the game..[/quote]He did do that.

Surely though, the heroics in that game belong to Brian Orakpo. If any one player [URL="http://wp.advancednflstats.com/weekly.php?gameid2=54876&week=1"]beat Dallas in that game[/URL], it was 98.

Re: Football Outsiders: Worst rated CBs in the NFL in 2010 (DeAngelo ranked #2)
 

I for one, saw what I expected from dhall in pass coverage this year. An up and down player. I'm fine with it though because we clearly are starving for players on D that can take anything the other way.

What I didnt expect from Dhall was just how much his tackling improved. He made a ton of key tackles and for the most part was one of the better tacklers on our team. Crazy that I'm saying that about DeAngelo.... lol

Re: Football Outsiders: Worst rated CBs in the NFL in 2010 (DeAngelo ranked #2)
 

I think the hate for D Hall is way out of hand . He is what he always has been a gambler . The problem is last season is the D as a whole was not clicking . If you have a gambler like Hall out there you need a mop up FS which is what we were missing so Halls misses don't kill you .

The reason I think we should resign Rogers is because he is a decent complement to Hall .

Barnes - I really don't understand the love . He is a 3rd year player who got to start 4 games in his career all at FS . Tyron was better .

Re: Football Outsiders: Worst rated CBs in the NFL in 2010 (DeAngelo ranked #2)
 

[quote=44ever;789765] DeAngelo Hall returned a fumble for a score and Graham Gano kicked two field goals, as the Redskins held on to edge the Cowboys, 13-7.

We can all thank D.Hall for the only win of the season that actually counted for anything. (Beating the Cowboys)[/quote]

It was D. Hall that gave up their one score. Also, on the last play of the game, Roy Williams scored a game winning touchdown that was negated by a holding call. If they were in fact playing zone, guess who got beat again? Yup. DeAngelo Hall.

Also, the mere fact he recovered a fumble recovery is pure luck. The act of stripping it is skill, the fumble recovery is pure luck. Regardless, it wasn't his abilities as a Cover Corner that scored that TD.

So we can thank D. Hall for the win and just disregard Gano FG's?


[quote=jamf;789775]Revis and Newman are on the list too. I would love to have both of those guys.

The Redskins had very little pressure all year and the worst free safety play in the league. I'm shocked that Rogers isn't on the list...
[/quote]

You realize that Revis was ranked #1 in success rate.
[url=http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2011/best-cornerback-charting-stats-2010]FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | Best Cornerback Charting Stats 2010[/url]

He only rated bad on YAC. He doesn't give up much, but seems that WRs get yards after the catch to a tune of 4.7. He still only gave up a outstanding 5.6 yards per pass. D. Hall didnt' sniff the top stats on any of the "Best of" list. He did however manage to be top 3 in all the worst categories.

As far as the Cowboys, you realize they rank poorly in pass defense right? (26th in 2010, and 20th in 2009)This coincides with the rankings as well.
[url=http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?archive=false&conference=null&role=OPP&offensiveStatisticCategory=null&defensiveStatisticCategory=TEAM_PASSING&season=2010&seasonType=REG&tabSeq=2&qualified=true&Submit=Go]NFL Stats: by Team Category[/url]

I posted stats in the other D. Hall thread from the 2007 season I believe that showed C. Rogers being one of the best in terms of coverage.

Re: Football Outsiders: Worst rated CBs in the NFL in 2010 (DeAngelo ranked #2)
 

DeAngelo Hall must be on that new drug called "Charlie Sheen" because he sure does "win" a lot for a person who contains so much suck.

NFL Player "Win"
Starter "Win"
Funble Recovery "Win"
Touchdowns "Win"
Interceptions "Win"
Pro Bowl "Win"
Pro Bowl MVP "Win"
Extra Pro Bowl Cash "Win"
Lucrative Contract "Win"
Winning "Win"

Must make you hate your life huh?

Re: Football Outsiders: Worst rated CBs in the NFL in 2010 (DeAngelo ranked #2)
 

I'll just restate what I've said in the past...Rogers is like the good friend you go to the movies and dinner with and always have a good time but you hope for something more. He'll tease you and make you think maybe this is the night, but you go home thinking well that was nice, but I feel a bit unsatisfied. Hall is Champagne with the fishnet stockings, 6 inch high-heels, and possibly a missing tooth on the corner of 14th and T Streets, NW at 1am. You may go home with a disease, but at least you know you'll get something out of Champagne

Re: Football Outsiders: Worst rated CBs in the NFL in 2010 (DeAngelo ranked #2)
 

[quote=SmootSmack;789833]I'll just restate what I've said in the past...Rogers is like the good friend you go to the movies and dinner with and always have a good time but you hope for something more. He'll tease you and make you think maybe this is the night, but you go home thinking well that was nice, but I feel a bit unsatisfied. Hall is Champagne with the fishnet stockings, 6 inch high-heels, and possibly a missing tooth on the corner of 14th and T Streets, NW at 1am. You may go home with a disease, but at least you know you'll get something out of Champagne[/quote]


Bad experiences? :censored:

Re: Football Outsiders: Worst rated CBs in the NFL in 2010 (DeAngelo ranked #2)
 

[quote=SmootSmack;789833]I'll just restate what I've said in the past...Rogers is like the good friend you go to the movies and dinner with and always have a good time but you hope for something more. He'll tease you and make you think maybe this is the night, but you go home thinking well that was nice, but I feel a bit unsatisfied. Hall is Champagne with the fishnet stockings, 6 inch high-heels, and possibly a missing tooth on the corner of 14th and T Streets, NW at 1am. You may go home with a disease, but at least you know you'll get something out of Champagne[/quote]

Thats just wrong man.:pimp:

Re: Football Outsiders: Worst rated CBs in the NFL in 2010 (DeAngelo ranked #2)
 

[quote=NC_Skins;789721]So it's fine if he beat two teams by himself and shit all over himself the other 14 games. YEAH!!!

[URL="http://www.espn980.com/blogs/chris.php"]ESPN 980 - WASHINGTON D.C.[/URL]









So the score is now 4-2 in favor of games lost over games won. So much for that being a valid reason as to why he's good.[/quote]


Funny you picked one of the best QB's and WR's in the NFL to support your argument. You also used a play where he slipped which is not fair.

Re: Football Outsiders: Worst rated CBs in the NFL in 2010 (DeAngelo ranked #2)
 

Football outsiders = Over Rated

[QUOTE=Angry;789720]I don't see how he is overrated if he single handedly won 2 games and people are still giving him crap for giving up to many completions.

I'd say he is being rated right where he needs to be because he is overrated by those who like em and underrated by those who hate em.

Hooskins, I bet if he played for UVA instead of VT you will be on the other side of the fence. Why cant us VA boys just get along?[/QUOTE]


It has nothing to do with colleges. The post I made in the other thread was just a joke to see what the response would be. As usual, people flipped out.

I have tons of friends and family that went to VT. Cody Grimm, went to VT and I'm a fan. Conversely, there are former UVA players I don't like like Aaron Brooks and Tiki Barber. I just keeps it real.

In terms of d hall I think the law of averages panned out for him this year for picks. Seasons before were horrible compounding with his poor coverage. His overall numbers for coverage haven't changed, as seen in this article and previous seasons.

Re: Football Outsiders: Worst rated CBs in the NFL in 2010 (DeAngelo ranked #2)
 

Leave D Hall alone, he gets a free pass for the rest of his career for his play against Dallas in the season opener!!!!!!!!!!!

Re: Football Outsiders: Worst rated CBs in the NFL in 2010 (DeAngelo ranked #2)
 

[quote=Angry;789816]DeAngelo Hall must be on that new drug called "Charlie Sheen" because he sure does "win" a lot for a person who contains so much suck.

NFL Player "Win"
Starter "Win"
Funble Recovery "Win"
Touchdowns "Win"
Interceptions "Win"
Pro Bowl "Win"
Pro Bowl MVP "Win"
Extra Pro Bowl Cash "Win"
Lucrative Contract "Win"
Winning "Win"

Must make you hate your life huh?[/quote]


You need to replace Win with Luck in order to make those previous statements true.

Re: Football Outsiders: Worst rated CBs in the NFL in 2010 (DeAngelo ranked #2)
 

Most times Luck is just a matter of Good Preparation & Taking advantage of opportunities.

Re: Football Outsiders: Worst rated CBs in the NFL in 2010 (DeAngelo ranked #2)
 

Making qualitative arguments are great and all, but you use the quantitative to back up specific points. Completely ignoring statistics is loser talk. Providing critical feedback and counter quantitative figures is what d-hall advocates should do. I haven't seen anything substantial yet. Or anyone really reply to Gtripps last post.

I would love to see Hall change and improve next year, but his track record shows nothing to indicate he will.

Re: Football Outsiders: Worst rated CBs in the NFL in 2010 (DeAngelo ranked #2)
 

[QUOTE=hooskins;789874]Making qualitative arguments are great and all, but you use the quantitative to back up specific points. Completely ignoring statistics is loser talk. Providing critical feedback and [B]counter quantitative figures is what d-hall advocates should do[/B]. I haven't seen anything substantial yet. Or anyone really reply to Gtripps last post.

[B]I would love to see Hall change and improve next year, but his track record shows nothing to indicate he will.[/[/B]QUOTE]

By no means take this as a vote of confidence for Hall, just want to address your statements:

1) I think those that support him have pointed out why, if you want "quantitative figures" Hall actually had them in 2010: INTs (6), TDs (2) & fumble recoveries (at least 1). I understand your statement, but remember that Hall made a pro bowl on the basis of "quantitative figures," not being a complete, every play corner. btw, he can add pro bowl MVP to his resume too.

2) I agree, I would love to see him gamble less, play every down strategically & make the mundane play that stops drives, like tackling a reciever on a quick slant short of the marker, making the qb throw to his check down due to tight coverage, etc. I have to say though, that he has improved in attitude greatly over the years from what I can tell. Sure, he still runs his mouth, but the fact that he became a captain was a big step for him. He is less "MeAngelo" than before, so I have some guarded optimism that he can still improve his game.

Overall, he is hard to evaluate, so I won't get caught up in #s that can be debated either way. I myself find it hard to label him. If I'm Jim Hassell I make it a priority to get more out of him.

Re: Football Outsiders: Worst rated CBs in the NFL in 2010 (DeAngelo ranked #2)
 

[quote=Chico23231;789869]You need to replace Win with Luck in order to make those previous statements true.[/quote]

If Luck makes you win, then so be it. What was that old cliche...

"Better lucky than good."?

"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity."?

Whichever it is you have to be somewhat good to get lucky that often.

Just ask Hugh Hefner!

[QUOTE=freddyg12;789877][QUOTE=hooskins;789874]Making qualitative arguments are great and all, but you use the quantitative to back up specific points. Completely ignoring statistics is loser talk. Providing critical feedback and [B]counter quantitative figures is what d-hall advocates should do[/B]. I haven't seen anything substantial yet. Or anyone really reply to Gtripps last post.

[B]I would love to see Hall change and improve next year, but his track record shows nothing to indicate he will.[/[/B]QUOTE]

By no means take this as a vote of confidence for Hall, just want to address your statements:

1) I think those that support him have pointed out why, if you want "quantitative figures" Hall actually had them in 2010: INTs (6), TDs (2) & fumble recoveries (at least 1). I understand your statement, but remember that Hall made a pro bowl on the basis of "quantitative figures," not being a complete, every play corner. btw, he can add pro bowl MVP to his resume too.

2) I agree, I would love to see him gamble less, play every down strategically & make the mundane play that stops drives, like tackling a reciever on a quick slant short of the marker, making the qb throw to his check down due to tight coverage, etc. I have to say though, that he has improved in attitude greatly over the years from what I can tell. Sure, he still runs his mouth, but the fact that he became a captain was a big step for him. He is less "MeAngelo" than before, so I have some guarded optimism that he can still improve his game.

Overall, he is hard to evaluate, so I won't get caught up in #s that can be debated either way. I myself find it hard to label him. If I'm Jim Hassell I make it a priority to get more out of him.[/QUOTE]

1) see my previous post. I think the picks, tds, etc. are a result of law of averages panning out. Just because those numbers are high, doesn't mean there a real change in trend. Just like how you can hit black 10 times in a row a casino, but the probability of black is still a bit below 500. In the short run results can be erradic, but after the sample size is increased dhall will return to being dhall. No consistent change from him.

2)Agree with your agreement.

Re: Football Outsiders: Worst rated CBs in the NFL in 2010 (DeAngelo ranked #2)
 

[quote=Angry;789882]If Luck makes you win, then so be it. What was that old cliche...

"Better lucky than good."?

"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity."?

Whichever it is you have to be somewhat good to get lucky that often.

Just ask Hugh Hefner![/quote]

Very true, just trying to keep our rationale consistent on the board. Any positives from a lack luster season has to be consistently sh*t on. Any "wins" need to be considered luck or well undeserved. I think someone once said "win is not really a win"

Re: Football Outsiders: Worst rated CBs in the NFL in 2010 (DeAngelo ranked #2)
 

[quote=Angry;789882]If Luck makes you win, then so be it. What was that old cliche...

"Better lucky than good."?

"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity."?

Whichever it is you have to be somewhat good to get lucky that often.

Just ask Hugh Hefner![/quote]

Luck is when you suck so bad that you get the number 1 pick in the 2012 draft.

Re: Football Outsiders: Worst rated CBs in the NFL in 2010 (DeAngelo ranked #2)
 

[quote=Dirtbag59;789915]Luck is when you suck so bad that you get the number 1 pick in the 2012 draft.[/quote]

Now that would be a Win

Re: Football Outsiders: Worst rated CBs in the NFL in 2010 (DeAngelo ranked #2)
 

So it seems that Hall has become the new Jason Campbell, as in the player that divides Redskins fans the most.

Re: Football Outsiders: Worst rated CBs in the NFL in 2010 (DeAngelo ranked #2)
 

Strip, Scoop, Score!

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CUstAk_lhc]YouTube - Washington Redskins 13 Dallas Cowboys 7 - DeAngelo Hall Fumble Return Touchdown [HD][/ame]

Re: Football Outsiders: Worst rated CBs in the NFL in 2010 (DeAngelo ranked #2)
 

[quote=Ruhskins;789988]So it seems that Hall has become the new Jason Campbell, as in the player that divides Redskins fans the most.[/quote]

Hall has been a PB player JC was never on that kind of level.. Campbell was always going to be JUST A GUY for the Redskins.

Re: Football Outsiders: Worst rated CBs in the NFL in 2010 (DeAngelo ranked #2)
 

[quote=44ever;790006]Strip, Scoop, Score!

[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CUstAk_lhc"]YouTube - Washington Redskins 13 Dallas Cowboys 7 - DeAngelo Hall Fumble Return Touchdown [HD][/URL][/quote]

IDK why 23 gets hated so much buy his own fans? Sad really if u think about it.. Hall is twice the corner Fred Smoot was IMO, Now thats a guy who was overrated.

Re: Football Outsiders: Worst rated CBs in the NFL in 2010 (DeAngelo ranked #2)
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;790012]IDK why 23 gets hated so much buy his own fans? Sad really if u think about it.. Hall is twice the corner Fred Smoot was IMO, Now thats a guy who was overrated.[/quote]

Go **** yourself sideways with a lunchbox...hater!










;)

Re: Football Outsiders: Worst rated CBs in the NFL in 2010 (DeAngelo ranked #2)
 

By the way, I never realized how much Fred Smoot looks like LaDanian Tomlinson

[url=http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/5492]Fred Smoot - Washington Redskins - NFL - Yahoo! Sports[/url]

Re: Football Outsiders: Worst rated CBs in the NFL in 2010 (DeAngelo ranked #2)
 

Lol my fault SS !!! Haha

Re: Football Outsiders: Worst rated CBs in the NFL in 2010 (DeAngelo ranked #2)
 

No one noticed DeAngelo's improved tackling and general improvement in hustle (for lack of better term)?

or are we all about the numbers?

Re: Football Outsiders: Worst rated CBs in the NFL in 2010 (DeAngelo ranked #2)
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;790011]Hall has been a PB player JC was never on that kind of level.. Campbell was always going to be JUST A GUY for the Redskins.[/quote]

Ha, Jason Campbell never close to seeing the probowl...