Re: Brandon Marshall anyone
 

[quote=johno;563552]no thanks. guy is a good wr, but also is batshit crazy. if we want to to blow some money or draft picks, it should be on someone for the OL. i say we keep our picks and hope for some real results from at least someone named williams, thomas, and/or kelly.[/quote]

This is a good point. Marshall is a beast but how much difference with an aging line. Plus, where are we going to find the money to pay this woman-beater?
If we were to pull the trigger, I'd offer a 2nd and a 3rd in 2011. Marshall would instantly become our undisputed No.1 WR. The guy is big, strong, fast and can flat out reel the ball in. He had 18 catches in one game last year and is averaging something like 100 catches over the past two years.
Hopefully, Thomas and or Kelly will show up this year. God knows we're going to need them. Moss and Cooooley can't do it by themselves.

Re: Brandon Marshall anyone
 

[quote=The Goat;563616]Nice observation...it's like somehow we hear JC as a reason to not bring in talent on the one hand cuz he's not up to par and then like he's the main reason we need to bring in extra talent on the other hand, again cuz he's not up to par. Whatever...

JC is on par w/ the classiest players in the game. His attitude and behavior is beyond reproach and I can think of 1) no other guy I'd rather have leading this team 2) no other guy who deserves success more.[/quote]I was about to reassure you that the Campbell haters have no influence in personnel decisions and thusly that their opinions largely do not matter...but then I thought about it a little more and decided that I should probably not go there, given the events of this offseason.

Re: Brandon Marshall anyone
 

[quote=44Deezel;563613]Exactly. Ben is a playmaker and the Steeler franchise is just solid from top to bottom. They could take our receivers and win the Super Bowl with them. [B]Ben got sacked a ton, but no one used that as an excuse for poor QB play.[/B] He kept plays alive with his feet, shed tackles and got the ball downfield.[/quote]

Well the reason Big Ben is a playmaker is because he was thrown in the fire and was allowed to play from day one. Ben has 72 career starts, so I would call him a veteran, as such he is expected to carry his team if necessary, although he has had an elite defense along the way. Unfortunately, in our team, Gibbs didn't trust Campbell as a rookie and he didn't get the same experience as Ben. Campbell has half the experience (36 starts) than Big Ben, and honestly I don't think anyone has expected him to carry the team on his back or win games. Yes, Campbell played shitty when his offensive line and running game disintegrated, but also the Redskins defense last year was not up to the level of Pittsburgh. I don't think anyone is that shallow to just say that the Redskins did not well just b/c Campbell got sacked a lot.

Furthermore, why are you guys dogging the Steelers WR group? You mean to tell me that Hines Ward, Plaxico Burress, and Santonio Holmes are not good enough to be considered part of the reason of the Steelers' success over the past couple of seasons?? I mean the Steelers have had a top 5/top 10 defense for a while, and a pretty strong running game (two back system for most of the time), but you guys make it sound like their wideouts were just some guys they got off the street or something.

Re: Brandon Marshall anyone
 

[quote=44Deezel;563613]Exactly. [B]Ben is a playmaker[/B] and the Steeler franchise is just solid from top to bottom. They could take our receivers and win the Super Bowl with them. [B] Ben got sacked a ton, but no one used that as an excuse for poor QB play.[/B] He kept plays alive with his feet, shed tackles and got the ball downfield.[/quote]These things are not mutually exclusive. A more accurate statement would be that, "when Ben Roethlisberger is getting sacked a ton, he's not very effective. But when Ben does get good protection, makes smart decisions, understands his role, etc, he's one of the most efficient passers in the NFL."

Ben Roethlisberger's career has been a bizarre mix of mistake-prone football, and historic efficiency. I really have no idea what to make out of it, except that he's been exceptionally fortunate to be on the Steelers, and not have to answer questions about his failures as a player.

Re: Brandon Marshall anyone
 

[quote=GTripp0012;563650]These things are not mutually exclusive. A more accurate statement would be that, "when Ben Roethlisberger is getting sacked a ton, he's not very effective. But when Ben does get good protection, makes smart decisions, understands his role, etc, he's one of the most efficient passers in the NFL."

Ben Roethlisberger's career has been a bizarre mix of mistake-prone football, and historic efficiency. I really have no idea what to make out of it, except that he's been exceptionally fortunate to be on the Steelers,[B] and not have to answer questions about his failures as a player[/B].[/quote]

Winning cures all doesn't it? If the team he plays for wasn't as good as it is, heck, if their defense wasn't as good as it is, I'm sure he would hear some of the same questions Campbell hears.

Re: Brandon Marshall anyone
 

[quote=Ruhskins;563558]I love how Campbell haters have to turn everything into an attack on him. :doh:[/quote]

I agree, that's been played out. Funny how they ignore the fact that they were 6-2 to start the season because the O-line was opening holes for the running game and gave him decent pass protection (notice I said DECENT). Very few, if any, QBs succeed in this league without a good/great offensive line. Just look at the Redskins glory years...3 Superbowls with 3 QBs, 3 different RB combinations but the SAME offensive line. Coincidence? I think not. Don't blame Campbell, he's played in a different offense every year so far. Every Campbell hater will be eating a huge sh*! burger next year and I'll be happy to serve them. LOL.

I apologize, I got off subject on this thread. My man-love for Jason Campbell just keeps shining through!

HAIL!

Re: Brandon Marshall anyone
 

[quote=53Fan;563655]Winning cures all doesn't it? If the team he plays for wasn't as good as it is, heck, if their defense wasn't as good as it is, I'm sure he would hear some of the same questions Campbell hears.[/quote]I would say that to an extent, Steelers fans are more willing to give the benefit of the doubt to their own players than Redskins fans are. I would say, if Campbell's career mirrored Roethlisberger's we'd be just as high on him as the Steelers are on Big Ben, even though, there's not a huge difference between the two.

If Campbell had won two super bowls in the last four years doing not a damn thing different than he has done so, he'd be a "playmaker" too. He'd also still have a long way to develop.

And for Steelers' fans sake, I hope/expect that Ben's going to improve in the future. I don't know how many more years he can plan on having the best defense in football. :)

Re: Brandon Marshall anyone
 

The Redskins FO should stand pat with the young group of WR we have. They will do just fine as long as we give JC time to get them the ball our wideouts will be tough. We have quick WR and big strong WR in Kelly and Thomas. They all have something different to bring to the offense. Remember this is their 2nd full season in the West Coast offense give them time. HTTR.
We don't need no Brandon Marshall, Plax Burress, or Chad Johnson they are big headaches.

Re: Brandon Marshall anyone
 

[quote=skins89moss;563664]The Redskins FO should stand pat with the young group of WR we have. They will do just fine as long as we give JC time to get them the ball our wideouts will be tough. We have quick WR and big strong WR in Kelly and Thomas. They all have something different to bring to the offense. Remember this is their 2nd full season in the West Coast offense give them time. HTTR.
We don't need no Brandon Marshall, Plax Burress, or Chad Johnson they are big headaches.[/quote]Ultimately, I agree with this. The best move is no move.

Re: Brandon Marshall anyone
 

[quote=Skins4Eva;563462]Brandon Marshall wants out of Denver. This is some kind of pipe dream buy could you imagine him as the Number 1 Reciever with Moss at the two and Randel El I the slot?!! The price is reportedly a first and a third in 2010. Would you guys make that trade?[/quote]
This question seems crazy. Why would you? I realize we don't have a top flight receiver but we got other needs across the board. Plus doesn't he come with alot of drama?

Re: Brandon Marshall anyone
 

Well, a 1st and 3rd is CRAZY.

BUT, I'd love to have a real #1 WR. He's 6'4" and a beast. I'd agree with giving them Moss and a 3rd or even 2nd draft pick, maybe throw in a prospect like Kelly or M.Mitchell. Marshall is only 25 and could really help out JC. His off field issues are a concern, but I'm hopeful.. Heck, we paid $100 mil for AH and he's got a ton of off-field issues some of which are still pending..

The other guys are OLD. P.Burress will be 32yo, Chad Johnson is 31yo. Not worth it.

All this being said, Denver would NEVER trade him. He's under contract, and he's an incredible weapon. They got rid of Jay Cutler because he was a whiner and the McDaniels didn't like him in his system. You can always use a good WR in any system.

Re: Brandon Marshall anyone
 

he won't be traded... I'd take Plax first atleast wee could give him a 1 year deal.

Re: Brandon Marshall anyone
 

Stay put with what we have do not i repeat do not give up any draft picks our WR will be better just give JC more time come on OL.

Re: Brandon Marshall anyone
 

[quote=GTripp0012;563479]Marshall is no where near good enough for a first and third. I mean, no one here would give a first and third for Boldin, and he seems like a much, much better complement to Santana Moss than Marshall.

We do have a need at WR, so I'd offer as much as a third and a fifth, or a third and Devin Thomas for him, but again, he's more valuable to Denver than he is to us.

Perhaps i'd do something like a second for Marshall and a fourth, but again, Denver's incentive to sell him off for that low is basically nil.[/quote]

Give them like 2-3 consecutive 2nd rounders for Marshall. 2nd rounders usually make the team and become starters. I think that would be fair for Marshall. If not give them one 1st rounder. I don't see why they wouldn't go for 3 2nd round picks.

Re: Brandon Marshall anyone
 

[quote=GusFrerotte;563857]Give them like 2-3 consecutive 2nd rounders for Marshall. 2nd rounders usually make the team and become starters. I think that would be fair for Marshall. If not give them one 1st rounder. I don't see why they wouldn't go for 3 2nd round picks.[/quote]I think, receivers like Brandon Marshall can be found in the late first round or the second round of any draft (possible exception: 2008 Draft :( ). So, no, you probably wouldn't toss multiple high picks at him.

The benefit of Marshall is that, he's already mostly through with his development, so by bringing him in now, you would get instant production. But like instant coffee, you're getting less in terms of quality than the price tag would make you think.

Re: Brandon Marshall anyone
 

Drafting WR is like gambling in Vegas, except MUCH worse odds. Just ask the Lions - or ask US (Rod Gardner, Mike Westbrook). We wasted TWO 1st rounders. I think getting good and *young* talent by free agency makes sense if you only have a 50% chance of drafting a gem. Santana Moss was a prime example, and I think most ppl like that trade.

Here's a great article about the bust-rate of draft picks:

[quote]First-Round Bust Percentages
QB -- 53 percent
RB -- 49 percent
WR -- 45 percent
DT -- 33 percent
OL -- 31 percent
DE -- 31 percent
CB -- 29 percent
LB -- 16 percent
S -- 11 percent

sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=kluck/wrapup/070425&sportCat=nfl

Crunching the Numbers: First-Round WRs, 1989-2003
Number of WRs drafted: 51
Notable busts: J.J. Stokes, Ike Hilliard, Reidel Anthony, R. Jay Soward, Marcus Nash, David Terrell, Charles Rogers
Number of busts: 23
Bust percentage: 45 percent
Number of wideouts with at least one Pro Bowl appearance: 16
Pro Bowl percentage: 31 percent
Teams with multiple busts: Broncos, Redskins

sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=kluck/receivers/070425[/quote]

Re: Brandon Marshall anyone
 

So by the numbers above, you'd be wasting a potential $30 million guaranteed money on a QB, RB or WR who only has a 50 PERCENT chance of making it in the NFL. Makes someone proven like Marshall seem worth it.

Signing a YOUNG vet like Haynesworth to $40 mil guaranteed, Hall to $20 mil guaranteed -- I think these make more sense for young proven stars. I don't disagree with the front office with this strategy. It's more expensive, but maybe more worth it. It seems like the draft is a better deal for low round picks if you can pick a gem like Horton.

[quote]"The bottom five will surprise fans most. The worst drafting team in the past three years, holding on to only a little more than half of its drafted players: the [B]New England Patriots[/B]. With three Super Bowl wins since 2001, the Patriots are the team of the decade so far. They boast a 39-9 record in the past three years. How have they maintained that excellence? Though saddled with low draft picks, the Patriots have been the masters of picking up useful veterans via trades to fill holes in their lineup (see: receivers Randy Moss and Wes Welker).

Third worst is another surprise: the world champion Pittsburgh Steelers, with only 58% of their drafted players still on the team and no All-Pros among them. Like the Patriots, the perennially contending Steelers usually have a low draft spot, but they have fulfilled their needs by finding and developing excellent undrafted rookies over the years, like running back Willie Parker and linebacker James Harrison, the 2008 defensive player of the year.

The bottom line: Drafting NFL-caliber players is very important, but it doesn't necessarily equal success on the field. Finding other strategies to plug the gaps, like the Patriots and Steelers have done, is essential. So don't judge your team's success at the end of draft day. Wait to see how it all plays out--and watch for what your team does to boost draft deficiencies."

forbes.com/2009/04/08/nfl-draft-teams-lifestyle-sports-nfl-draft.html
[/quote]

Re: Brandon Marshall anyone
 

[quote=diehardskin2982;563849]he won't be traded... I'd take Plax first atleast wee could give him a 1 year deal.[/quote]

Why bring in all the drama with Burress? He was a problem after the Giants won the Super Bowl. He was late to meetings and got fined by the Giants. Later on as we know he shot himself in the leg at the night club. HE IS NOT A ROOKIE. Burress has been in the league for at least 8 yrs and still cant figure it out yet. This guy won't change his ways cause he has been given special treatment since he could play football. Lets stay away from this type of player cause he can't be counted on. Oh yea he might be doing some prison time. I rather lose with our WR than have this fool on our team.

Re: Brandon Marshall anyone
 

[quote=ethat001;563875]So by the numbers above, you'd be wasting a potential $30 million guaranteed money on a QB, RB or WR who only has a 50 PERCENT chance of making it in the NFL. Makes someone proven like Marshall seem worth it.

Signing a YOUNG vet like Haynesworth to $40 mil guaranteed, Hall to $20 mil guaranteed -- I think these make more sense for young proven stars. I don't disagree with the front office with this strategy. It's more expensive, but maybe more worth it. It seems like the draft is a better deal for low round picks if you can pick a gem like Horton.[/quote]Well, $30 million isn't exactly the average amount of guaranteed money for a first round player. It's like, the average of the top three picks. But the bust rate in the top three is, obviously, significantly lower than in the rest of the round.

I've also found, in the past, that the way you need to define a bust to make the overall rate 50%+, seems to be more heavily based on expectations than actual results. The true bust rate in the first round seems to be closer to 20% over the last five years or so, (5-6 players per round), although, admittedly much higher at the WR position. I'm just not of the mind that a 1st round pick that produces at a 3rd round level [like Robert Gallery] for 7-8 seasons deserves the same tag as a guy who is out of the league [pick your favorite Mike Williams] in two seasons.

And then of course, the study does label guys like Koren Robinson and Peter Warrick busts, though they do meet the non-bust criteria. Still, a 40% bust rate on WRs means you do always risk drafting a non-player in the draft.

Still, unless 100 receptions is a magical, automatic sort of figure, I'd say that a guy like Marshall could still find himself on the wrong side of that 45%. Not that it's likely that a guy with consecutive 100 reception seasons can't hold his own, but nothing he's done would make it a certainty that he's going to stay near the top of the league in receiving.

The draft is an excellent value from picks 9 and on. For teams picking in the top 8...you just have to do your homework and make sure you draft a contributor. The bust rate is pretty low in the top 8 picks, and the signing bonuses are obscenely high, and this combination makes it crippling for teams to draft a bust in the top quarter of the first round. Not that I'm suggesting anything that isn't already obvious.

Re: Brandon Marshall anyone
 

Here's all the wide receivers drafted within the top three picks in the last 20 years:

1. Keyshawn Johnson
2. Charles Rogers
3. Andre Johnson
4. Larry Fitzgerald
5. Braylon Edwards
6. Calvin Johnson

11 pro bowls between these guys, with only one bust. I'd say the conversion rate on elite-level college wide receivers has been pretty good. After the first three picks though, those 30 million signing bonuses, then busts mix in pretty evenly with successful players.

Re: Brandon Marshall anyone
 

[quote=budw38;563593]Great post , I agree 100 % . We need an OL to give our Qb time to throw the ball downfield ! Maybe I trade one of our WR's straight up for BM , but NO way I give them 2010 draft pick for him .[/quote]

Big Ben was sacked more than any other QB except for Matt Cassell, but he kept plays alive and got the ball downfield. Campbell seems to need perfect pass protection in order to be successful. He either can't anticipate where the rush is coming from, or he can't evade defenders long enough to make a positive play, or both. But I think he'll be better this year whether or not the O line is much improved.

Re: Brandon Marshall anyone
 

[quote=GTripp0012;563661]I would say that to an extent, Steelers fans are more willing to give the benefit of the doubt to their own players than Redskins fans are. I would say, if Campbell's career mirrored Roethlisberger's we'd be just as high on him as the Steelers are on Big Ben, even though, there's not a huge difference between the two.

If Campbell had won two super bowls in the last four years doing not a damn thing different than he has done so, he'd be a "playmaker" too. He'd also still have a long way to develop.

And for Steelers' fans sake, I hope/expect that Ben's going to improve in the future. I don't know how many more years he can plan on having the best defense in football. :)[/quote]

There's not a huge difference between Campbell and Big Ben?!?!?! Was there a 2 for 1 sale on crack in your neighborhood? The final drive of the Super Bowl is the difference between the two. When has Campbell done anything like that? Ben flat out wins games for his team and is on his way to the HOF. Campbell is still a work in progress and could be a back-up the rest of his career if he doesn't break out in a big way this year.

Re: Brandon Marshall anyone
 

[quote=Ruhskins;563646]Well the reason Big Ben is a playmaker is because he was thrown in the fire and was allowed to play from day one. [B]Ben has 72 career starts, so I would call him a veteran, as such he is expected to carry his team if necessary, although he has had an elite defense along the way. [/B]Unfortunately, in our team, Gibbs didn't trust Campbell as a rookie and he didn't get the same experience as Ben. Campbell has half the experience (36 starts) than Big Ben, and honestly I don't think anyone has expected him to carry the team on his back or win games. Yes, Campbell played shitty when his offensive line and running game disintegrated, but also the Redskins defense last year was not up to the level of Pittsburgh. I don't think anyone is that shallow to just say that the Redskins did not well just b/c Campbell got sacked a lot.

Furthermore, why are you guys dogging the Steelers WR group? You mean to tell me that Hines Ward, Plaxico Burress, and Santonio Holmes are not good enough to be considered part of the reason of the Steelers' success over the past couple of seasons?? I mean the Steelers have had a top 5/top 10 defense for a while, and a pretty strong running game (two back system for most of the time), but you guys make it sound like their wideouts were just some guys they got off the street or something.[/quote]

Are you saying Ben wasn't really good until his 72nd start? Or even 50th start? How did he play in his first 36 games vs. Campbell? He was 13-0 as a rookie (and offensive rookie player of the year and SB winner the following year), and I don't care how you parse the stats to make the argument that Campbell is just as good. No one in their right mind can watch the two play and think they're on par with each other. For now, Ben is head and shoulders better. I like Campbell and hope he has a break-out season, but his play has been mediocre at best up to this point.

Re: Brandon Marshall anyone
 

[quote=44Deezel;563886]Big Ben was sacked more than any other QB except for Matt Cassell, but he kept plays alive and got the ball downfield. Campbell seems to need perfect pass protection in order to be successful. He either can't anticipate where the rush is coming from, or he can't evade defenders long enough to make a positive play, or both. But I think he'll be better this year whether or not the O line is much improved.[/quote] I don't disagree with your statement , I was not comparing JC & Ben . Big Ben has a knack for making big plays when he is under great pressure , lets just see what JC can deliver with more time and another year in Zorn's WC offense . IF JC plays great , we might have our Qb for years to come , if he bombs ,,,, Rivers might be coming to DC in 2010.

Re: Brandon Marshall anyone
 

[quote=GTripp0012;563885]Here's all the wide receivers drafted within the top three picks in the last 20 years:

1. Keyshawn Johnson
2. Charles Rogers
3. Andre Johnson
4. Larry Fitzgerald
5. Braylon Edwards
6. Calvin Johnson

11 pro bowls between these guys, with only one bust. I'd say the conversion rate on elite-level college wide receivers has been pretty good. After the first three picks though, those 30 million signing bonuses, then busts mix in pretty evenly with successful players.[/quote]

GTripp -- nice work on that list. I'd salivate over having one of those. I guess if you have an elite WR you'd be willing to draft top 3 & give up a $30 million bonus, they are probably worth it.

I still think with the typical draft bust percentages -- that unless your front office is better than the rest of the league at spotting top talent -- it makes more sense to get *young* free agents like Marshall. You may pay more, but you're much more likely to get a winner.

I still wouldn't just give away our draft, but I value proven *young* FA far more than risky & costly draft picks.

Re: Brandon Marshall anyone
 

Umm. Can we all keep one thing in mind when comparing JC to others......Gibbs didn't let him play right out of the box. So numbers don't mean anything. Also Big Ben has been in the same offense for his whole career JC has not. I'm not trying to make a crutch for JC, heck I was hoping we would have picked up Sanchez but I do understand the fact that he has had to learn while playing and trying to get comfortable with the offenses he's been in. Hopefully this yr he learns more and is more comfortable and has a better 2min drill.

Re: Brandon Marshall anyone
 

[quote=GTripp0012;563885]Here's all the wide receivers drafted within the top three picks in the last 20 years:

1. Keyshawn Johnson
2. Charles Rogers
3. Andre Johnson
4. Larry Fitzgerald
5. Braylon Edwards
6. Calvin Johnson

11 pro bowls between these guys, with only one bust. I'd say the conversion rate on elite-level college wide receivers has been pretty good. After the first three picks though, those 30 million signing bonuses, then busts mix in pretty evenly with successful players.[/quote]

Why don't people tout Andre Johnson more? He doesn't get in trouble and he doesn't have a huge mouth, so the media doesn't pay attention to him. They guy is a freak and as good as any offensive player in the NFL, IMO.

Re: Brandon Marshall anyone
 

[quote=44Deezel;563887]There's not a huge difference between Campbell and Big Ben?!?!?! Was there a 2 for 1 sale on crack in your neighborhood? The final drive of the Super Bowl is the difference between the two. When has Campbell done anything like that? Ben flat out wins games for his team and is on his way to the HOF. Campbell is still a work in progress and could be a back-up the rest of his career if he doesn't break out in a big way this year.[/quote]Wait, when did Campbell mess up the final drive of the super bowl? Don't compare apples to oranges.

Relax, it's just one drive, and Campbell has plenty of time to match it. Who knows, maybe this is the year? Maybe not. Roethlisberger is this off-seasons' hot thing, but the next time he has a 4 INT day, his game winning drive in the Super Bowl last year won't be worth much, and he'll have to answer to his critics, just like Campbell will.

Re: Brandon Marshall anyone
 

[quote=44Deezel;563888]Are you saying Ben wasn't really good until his 72nd start? Or even 50th start? How did he play in his first 36 games vs. Campbell? He was 13-0 as a rookie (and offensive rookie player of the year and SB winner the following year), and [B]I don't care how you parse the stats to make the argument that Campbell is just as good.[/B] No one in their right mind can watch the two play and think they're on par with each other. For now, Ben is head and shoulders better. I like Campbell and hope he has a break-out season, but his play has been mediocre at best up to this point.[/quote]

Dude, you are way off. My statements were a reaction to your following comment:

[quote=44Deezel;563613]Exactly. Ben is a playmaker and the Steeler franchise is just solid from top to bottom. They could take our receivers and win the Super Bowl with them. [B]Ben got sacked a ton, but no one used that as an excuse for poor QB play.[/B] He kept plays alive with his feet, shed tackles and got the ball downfield.[/quote]

Nowhere in my response did I say that Jason Campbell is better than Big Ben. To me your comment that "no one used that [being sacked] as an excuse for poor QB play" sounded as you were saying that unlike Campbell, Ben got sacked a lot and still got his team to the playoffs. It sounded as though you were comparing Campbell to Ben. My response was simply saying that you cannot compare the two at this point, since Ben has more experience (twice as many starts as JC) and was thrown into the starting role since his rookie year (unlike JC).

[quote=44Deezel;563887]There's not a huge difference between Campbell and Big Ben?!?!?! Was there a 2 for 1 sale on crack in your neighborhood? The final drive of the Super Bowl is the difference between the two. When has Campbell done anything like that? [B]Ben flat out wins games for his team and is on his way to the HOF. Campbell is still a work in progress and could be a back-up the rest of his career if he doesn't break out in a big way this year.[/B][/quote]

I don't necessarily agree that there is not much of a huge difference between JC and Big Ben, however this statement once again leads me to believe that you are comparing Ben to Campbell. Let's look at their differences: 72 starts vs. 36 starts; being the starting QB from rookie year vs. sitting on the bench; having Plaxico Burress/Hines Ward/Santonio Holmes vs. having just Santana Moss; having an elite defense that can win a game vs. having a bend but don't break defense. Ben has had many advantages and that makes him better than Campbell, it is not fair to compare them.

Re: Brandon Marshall anyone
 

[quote=44Deezel;563888]Are you saying Ben wasn't really good until his 72nd start? Or even 50th start? How did he play in his first 36 games vs. Campbell? He was 13-0 as a rookie (and offensive rookie player of the year and SB winner the following year), and I don't care how you parse the stats to make the argument that Campbell is just as good. No one in their right mind can watch the two play and think they're on par with each other. For now, Ben is head and shoulders better. I like Campbell and hope he has a break-out season, but his play has been mediocre at best up to this point.[/quote]Thing is, Ben may never win another SB the rest of his career, and he still might end up as a legitimate, sure-fire hall of famer. However, suggesting he's already to the point where he transcends the other players on the field to win games is a gross exaggeration.

Let's face it, for the first two years of Roethlisberger's career, he wore unbelievably large training wheels. He was very, very good in the plays that he was asked to run those years, but he was rarely asked to carry the team. Maybe a drive here and there, but he wasn't the leader of the 2004-2005 Steelers, he was just a key component in their machine who was less mistake prone than Tommy Maddox.

Then, when they took the training wheels off, he kind of floundered like any young quarterback asked to lead. He sandwiched a pro bowl season in between two below average seasons. I don't know what that means. QB rating had him over 100+ in 2007, but his TD total was inflated by a lack of a goal line running game. He had his best season as a pro in 2007, but it wasn't some historic, pro-bowl year. It was merely the best he's done.

Look, the guy is an 8.1 Y/A playoff quarterback with an 87 rating. Those are excellent numbers. More importantly, his playoff performance is NOT out of line with his regular season performance. It's not like he goes to a totally different level in the playoffs. He's always been good. Of course, these very good numbers are only a small step above where Campbell is now. Given a small increase in his offensive environment, Campbell's is arguably already at this level.

Re: Brandon Marshall anyone
 

[quote=GTripp0012;563942]Thing is, Ben may never win another SB the rest of his career, and he still might end up as a legitimate, sure-fire hall of famer. However, suggesting he's already to the point where he transcends the other players on the field to win games is a gross exaggeration.

Let's face it, for the first two years of Roethlisberger's career, he wore unbelievably large training wheels. He was very, very good in the plays that he was asked to run those years, but he was rarely asked to carry the team. Maybe a drive here and there, but he wasn't the leader of the 2004-2005 Steelers, he was just a key component in their machine who was less mistake prone than Tommy Maddox.

Then, when they took the training wheels off, he kind of floundered like any young quarterback asked to lead. He sandwiched a pro bowl season in between two below average seasons. I don't know what that means. QB rating had him over 100+ in 2007, but his TD total was inflated by a lack of a goal line running game. He had his best season as a pro in 2007, but it wasn't some historic, pro-bowl year. It was merely the best he's done.

Look, the guy is an 8.1 Y/A playoff quarterback with an 87 rating. Those are excellent numbers. More importantly, his playoff performance is NOT out of line with his regular season performance. It's not like he goes to a totally different level in the playoffs. He's always been good. Of course, [B]these very good numbers are only a small step above where Campbell is now. Given a small increase in his offensive environment, Campbell's is arguably already at this level.[/quote[/B]]

As I've mentioned before some QB's you just can't judge them by rating, comp. % and so on. Ben is one of those guys. For the most part he gets the job done when it matters. It may not look pretty but he makes enough plays for Pittsburgh's offense. I don't think he's an upper tier NFL Qb but right now he doesn't have to be. At this point he's a better QB than JC.

Re: Brandon Marshall anyone
 

[quote=skinsfan69;564119]As I've mentioned before some QB's you just can't judge them by rating, comp. % and so on. Ben is one of those guys. For the most part he gets the job done when it matters. It may not look pretty but he makes enough plays for Pittsburgh's offense. I don't think he's an upper tier NFL Qb but right now he doesn't have to be. At this point he's a better QB than JC.[/quote]Ben's had a pretty impressive early career. I wasn't really arguing that he's not better than Campbell, because the question wasn't even posed. I suggested that the gap between them is smaller than one would be led to believe by what is read and spoken about the two of them. If the price on Ben is 100 million, and the price on Campbell is 60 million, I'd take JC at the reduced price.

The only thing is, that Ben is coming off the least productive season of his career, statistically. I realize he "got it done" and I also don't really care. I saw him in the playoffs, and he was more like his old self than he looked to be in the regular season. With the Ben who showed up in the playoffs, you can win a whole bunch of games with a mediocre defense. With the Ben who played the 2008 regular season behind an inconsistent OL and WR targets, having the No. 1 (or close to No. 1) defense was a downright necessity to win more games than they lost.

We can wax poetic about the 3-4 games that Ben led drives to win in the final minutes last year, but if he had the 2008 Redskins defense instead of the Steelers defense--and the Redskins weren't a chopped liver defensive team--he's not in any of those games to win it at the end. He's got a 7-9 non playoff team instead of an eventual super bowl champion. And to put that in perspective, that would have been the second time in Big Ben's career that he would have failed to go .500.

The defense makes a huge difference in how he is perceived. And in 2008, second half specifically, our defense was a detriment to how Campbell was perceived. The phrases "Jason Campbell" and "poor second half" have appeared all over the internet, but Campbell was one of two guys on the offense who executed a higher percentage of the time in the second half of the year than in the first half. He just got no help.

I'm unconvinced that Ben will have a stronger career than Campbell, although if JC doesn't start having some 7.5-8.0 YPA seasons, he's never going to catch Big Ben, in my mind.