Re: Redskins Win In Appeals Court
 

[quote=steveo395;557965]Why do people keep suing the Redskins for their name? Who really cares. Is it really going to make these peoples lives any better if there is no team named the Redskins anymore? If somebody really gets offended that easily I think they have bigger problems.[/quote]


Same applies to the N word. who really cares... get over it

Re: Redskins Win In Appeals Court
 

[quote=bigm29;558076]Same applies to the N word. who really cares... get over it[/quote]

Thats kinda the problem. Just like the N word is a racist remark towards blacks the word Redskin is a racist remark towards Indians. If you were a Indian living in Washington DC are you telling me you wouldnt be offended at Redskin fans wearing t-shirts and caps that say Redskins? It would be like a Africian-American living in DC and seeing the N word on t-shirts and hats.

Now when I say this im just giving a different point of view. I know Redskin fans respect and honor Indians. We all wear our Burgundy & Gold in pride. Im happy we won another case that lets us keep the name Redskins, logo, etc. Im just giving a different point of view from the other side. If I was a Indian I would probably be offended in todays society seeing the word Redskins as a team of a US Pro Football Franchise.

I know not all Indians care about the name but I can understand the other point of view of the Indians that do.

Re: Redskins Win In Appeals Court
 

[quote=tryfuhl;558011]Can we see your research?[/quote]



[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7GKtUDOPkM]YouTube - Redskins-A 500 Year Hate Crime (quick preview)[/ame]

Re: Redskins Win In Appeals Court
 

I think the word Redskin may offend a few Indians but as a total population how many are sitting around hoping that they have to change the name and logo. I think of the word Redskin as a fearce warrior that will never surrender.
I'm African American, Irish, and Indian and in California the Indians have their on land ( Reservation)that we can't even go into. They have casino's and their on land what do they really have to compalin about. They can choose to live on a reservation or any other place in America. How much money do they get in government aid. Good luck with this law suit it will be red tape for many years in the court system. Some African Americans think we should be reimbursts for reperations from Slavery. At least they got their on land so be happy and move on. HTTR.

Re: Redskins Win In Appeals Court
 

[quote=Brian Orakpo;558016]Actually the colors were one of many reasons why I started liking the Redskins as a kid. I don't understand why you would hope not?[/quote]

I meant I hope Redskins fans aren't supporting the team only because of the colors.. But really, it doesn't matter any fans are welcome :)

Re: Redskins Win In Appeals Court
 

[quote=Giantone;558087][url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7GKtUDOPkM]YouTube - Redskins-A 500 Year Hate Crime (quick preview)[/url][/quote]

Your "YouTube" video does not count as research. Anyone can put whatever they want on there and try to call it factual. There is no substance to that video what so ever. Try again...

Re: Redskins Win In Appeals Court
 

I couldnt imagine how i would feel if we had to change our team name and logo.

Re: Redskins Win In Appeals Court
 

[quote=Giantone;557995]NO, not close!
To many Native Americans ...the word Redskin ...has the same connotation as the "N" word does for African Americans ,to them it's not trivial.........not by a long shot![/quote]
In our ultra-sensitive world it is natural to assume this, but take the Florida Seminoles for example. Same type of thing. AND many whites get all crazy about sueing them to change, /trivializing, and degrading Native Americans, etcs.
Last year I heard one of the heads of the Seminole Nation answer questions on the matter. Although the white interviewer tried.....desperately to enrage the Seminole leader on the issue. The NA's response was "I personally am proud to have our name thought of in such high regard. I consider it a complement that so many non NA's would consider it so"
Oh well.............

Re: Redskins Win In Appeals Court
 

[quote=Brian Orakpo;558082]Thats kinda the problem. Just like the N word is a racist remark towards blacks the word Redskin is a racist remark towards Indians. [B]If you were a Indian living in Washington DC are you telling me you wouldnt be offended at Redskin fans wearing t-shirts and caps that say Redskins? It would be like a Africian-American living in DC and seeing the N word on t-shirts and hats. [/B]

I know not all Indians care about the name but I can understand the other point of view of the Indians that do.[/quote]

The Redskins are a private entity. Things don't have to change just because it offends some people. If the Redskins were a government body then by all means have at it and change anything you like to suit everybody.

Being a private company the Redskins aren't obligated to please every person. It's obviously is not hurting them financially because FedEx is sold out until 3026.

If the American Indians have such a problem with the name then please don't give the Redskins any patronage, including bringing attention to the team with various lawsuits.

The word "Redskin" only gets said more when your lawsuits are broadcast on national television.

Re: Redskins Win In Appeals Court
 

[quote=Giantone;557995]NO, not close!
To many Native Americans ...the word Redskin ...has the same connotation as the "N" word does for African Americans ,to them it's not trivial.........not by a long shot![/quote]

If your living in squalor on some Indian Reservation, the name and trademarks of a football team 1000 miles away are the very definition of trivial. Non-trivial things might include food, clean water, medicine, shelter, etc.

Re: Redskins Win In Appeals Court
 

[quote=[COLOR=red][B][SIZE=4][COLOR=black]Giant[/COLOR][/SIZE][/B][/color]one;558008]if anyone is interested.


[URL="http://www.petitiononline.com/wr3s6651/petition.html"]The Demise and Removal of the Washington Redskins Logo Petition[/URL][/quote]
I find the use of my peoples namesake to be degrading and hurtful!
---Rubeus Hagrid

Re: Redskins Win In Appeals Court
 

[quote=Skinny Tee;558111]The Redskins are a private entity. Things don't have to change just because it offends some people. If the Redskins were a government body then by all means have at it and change anything you like to suit everybody.

Being a private company the Redskins aren't obligated to please every person. It's obviously is not hurting them financially because FedEx is sold out until 3026.

If the American Indians have such a problem with the name then please don't give the Redskins any patronage, including bringing attention to the team with various lawsuits.

The word "Redskin" only gets said more when your lawsuits are broadcast on national television.[/quote]

Yeah I can see your point. I think both sides have valid points. The Redskins havent done anything that would be considered racist since GPM owned the team. The Redskins organization honors Indians imo and means no disrespect. On the other hand I do see what Indians are saying about the team name, logo, etc.

Re: Redskins Win In Appeals Court
 

Did changing the name from the Bullits to the Wizards hurt the team?

Re: Redskins Win In Appeals Court
 

[quote=Redskins8588;558095]Your "YouTube" video does not count as research. Anyone can put whatever they want on there and try to call it factual. There is no substance to that video what so ever. Try again...[/quote]


...actually there is and the pro side thinks so.

Re: Redskins Win In Appeals Court
 

[quote=Brian Orakpo;558082]Thats kinda the problem. Just like the N word is a racist remark towards blacks the word Redskin is a racist remark towards Indians. [B]If you were a Indian living in Washington DC are you telling me you wouldnt be offended at Redskin fans wearing t-shirts and caps that say Redskins? It would be like a Africian-American living in DC and seeing the N word on t-shirts and hats. [/B]

Now when I say this im just giving a different point of view. I know Redskin fans respect and honor Indians. We all wear our Burgundy & Gold in pride. Im happy we won another case that lets us keep the name Redskins, logo, etc. Im just giving a different point of view from the other side. If I was a Indian I would probably be offended in todays society seeing the word Redskins as a team of a US Pro Football Franchise.

I know not all Indians care about the name but I can understand the other point of view of the Indians that do.[/quote]

To be quite honest with you I live in the outskirts and see "African Americans" as you put it walking around with T-shirts with the "N" word on it. Frankly what upsets me more is the "African Americans" who walk around calling each other the "N" word. The word is either offensive or not offensive and either everyone can say it or no one should. Being white I take pride in telling those individuals that the word offends me and to please stop using it.

Re: Redskins Win In Appeals Court
 

[quote=Giantone;558134]Did changing the name from the Bullits to the Wizards hurt the team?[/quote]

Not sure. You would have to ask the owner if there was any revinue lost from changing the name and colors. I prefered the "Bullets" name and colors more. I have not purchased anything Wizards related.

Re: Redskins Win In Appeals Court
 

[quote=SBXVII;558136]To be quite honest with you I live in the outskirts and see "African Americans" as you put it walking around with T-shirts with the "N" word on it. Frankly what upsets me more is the "African Americans" who walk around calling each other the "N" word. The word is either offensive or not offensive and either everyone can say it or no one should. Being white I take pride in telling those individuals that the word offends me and to please stop using it.[/quote]

Just like some Indians have no problem with the word Redskins some African Americans have no problem with the N word. I do understand your point and agree for the most part. I also understand the point of view from Indians who say the word Redskins is racist just like Africian Americans see the N word as racist.

Re: Redskins Win In Appeals Court
 

Def;
[B] The Macquarie Dictionary defines racism as:[/B] "the belief that human races have distinctive characteristics which determine their respective cultures, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule or dominate others."

Clearly the team is not trying to prove that it's superior then the NA or dominate them.


[B]Merriam-Webster's Dictionary defines racism as [/B]a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular racial group, and that it is also the prejudice based on such a belief.

Again the team is not trying to show any signs of superiority over any NA.

[B]According to the Oxford English Dictionary[/B], racism is a belief or ideology that all members of each racial group possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially to distinguish it as being either superior or inferior to another racial group or racial groups.

I honestly don't see why the NA are upset. No where have the Redskins tried to show they are inferior to any NA's. If nothing else perhaps they have put them on a pedistal because we all know the Redskins are the best team and are happy to have the name, which is actually showing they are superior. So why complain. LOL.

Re: Redskins Win In Appeals Court
 

Look if it makes you all feel better change the name to the Washington Crackers. I don't care. I'll still root for the local team. It's just a shame that people have nothing better to do in their lives then to take up time and energy trying to change a name of an organization instead of simply enjoying life and having fun.

I see them as the one busy boddy in the neighbor hood who can't keep his or her nose out of other peoples business and has to complain about everything cause their lives are so misserable they have to make sure no one else is happy.

I don't like the Dallas cowboys. I find them offensive. So ....I don't root for them. Let them keep their screwed up name and colors...I don't care.

[B]Edit:[/B] No different then the smoking issue(and I'm not a smoker). I can't wait until the Coffie Haters of America start sueing coffie companies cause coffie has caffine or the smell makes them sick and should not be in the work place. Caffine is a drug you know. Can't have people all hyped up.

and what about soda? Too much alcohol causes liver problems....maybe we should sue over that also and have it banned again due to medical costs.

Re: Redskins Win In Appeals Court
 

[quote=SBXVII;558142]I honestly don't see why the NA are upset. No where have the Redskins tried to show they are inferior to any NA's. If nothing else perhaps they have put them on a pedistal because we all know the Redskins are the best team and are happy to have the name, which is actually showing they are superior. So why complain. LOL.[/quote]

I dont think its because of anything about the team per say. The Redskins and their fans honor Indians. I think its because Redskins is a racial slur towards Indians.

Re: Redskins Win In Appeals Court
 

[quote=Giantone;558134]Did changing the name from the Bullits to the Wizards hurt the team?[/quote]

Well they weren't named the Bullits, but you have to understand that pro basketball is not the number one team in the DC area. Is like if they changed the name of the NY Rangers vs. changing the name of the Yankees. I'm sure some people cared, but changing the name of the Bullets/Wizards won't have the same reaction as changing the name of the Redskins.

Pesonally, I thought changing the name of Bullets was ridiculous, as I don't think changing the name made any difference in the crime that happens in DC.

Re: Redskins Win In Appeals Court
 

[quote=SBXVII;558146]Look if it makes you all feel better change the name to the Washington Crackers. I don't care. I'll still root for the local team. It's just a shame that people have nothing better to do in their lives then to take up time and energy trying to change a name of an organization instead of simply enjoying life and having fun.

I see them as the one busy boddy in the neighbor hood who can't keep his or her nose out of other peoples business and has to complain about everything cause their lives are so misserable they have to make sure no one else is happy. [/quote]

Thats one way to look at it. Or you can look at it as a group of people who dont like to see a racial slur as a team name of a football franchise.

I like our team name because we honor Indians and have alot of respect for them and their history. I can understand why some Indians have a problem with it though.

Re: Redskins Win In Appeals Court
 

[quote=Ruhskins;558148]Well they weren't named the Bullits, but you have to understand that pro basketball is not the number one team in the DC area. Is like if they changed the name of the NY Rangers vs. changing the name of the Yankees. I'm sure some people cared, but changing the name of the Bullets/Wizards won't have the same reaction as changing the name of the Redskins.

[B]Pesonally, I thought changing the name of Bullets was ridiculous, as I don't think changing the name made any difference in the crime that happens in DC.[/quote][/B]

That was just an excuse the owner used to be able to change the name. Crime stayed the same. The only difference was perhaps because the colors were mostly red and white the owner saw gang members purchasing the products, but thats no different then the NY Yankees making hats in different colors to accomodate those individuals. Or how about all the other teams that have gang members using their logos.

Re: Redskins Win In Appeals Court
 

[quote=Ruhskins;558148]Well they weren't named the Bullits, but you have to understand that pro basketball is not the number one team in the DC area. Is like if they changed the name of the NY Rangers vs. changing the name of the Yankees. I'm sure some people cared, but changing the name of the Bullets/Wizards won't have the same reaction as changing the name of the Redskins.

Pesonally, I thought changing the name of Bullets was ridiculous, as I don't think changing the name made any difference in the crime that happens in DC.[/quote]

So did I, I'm not a big basketball guy and I was really just asking , I don't know if it did or it did'nt.
MPO.....I think these groups are reaching ,but times change what wasn't offensive in the 30's and 40'..is now,we must be politicly correct.Thing is as a young kid I did study Indian folklore and there is some truth to what they say.
Should the team and Dan Snyder be held responsable for thing that happen a long time ago ....no but in todays world well ya just never know.

Re: Redskins Win In Appeals Court
 

[quote=Ruhskins;558148]Pesonally, I thought changing the name of Bullets was ridiculous, as I don't think changing the name made any difference in the crime that happens in DC.[/quote]

I never understood the name change. The reasons around the change were weak imo. Just like the Wizards name and logo since the change.

Re: Redskins Win In Appeals Court
 

[quote=Redskins8588;558095]Your "YouTube" video does not count as research. Anyone can put whatever they want on there and try to call it factual. There is no substance to that video what so ever. Try again...[/quote]

ok, how about this ?


[URL="http://www.iwchildren.org/redskinhate.htm"]REDSKIN, A HATE WORD DEFINED page 1[/URL]

P.S. this is a good article from the Washington Post in 2005.


[url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/02/AR2005100201139.html]A Linguist's Alternative History of 'Redskin'[/url]

Re: Redskins Win In Appeals Court
 

[quote=Giantone;558153]ok, how about this ?


[URL="http://www.iwchildren.org/redskinhate.htm"]REDSKIN, A HATE WORD DEFINED page 1[/URL]

P.S. this is a good article from the Washington Post in 2005.


[url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/02/AR2005100201139.html]A Linguist's Alternative History of 'Redskin'[/url][/quote]

Again all these points are moot because that is not how the team's name ever was meant. And today again it represents the name Redskin in a good way like all other sports teams try to represent their towns and logos.

So after they get rid of Redskins, do they get rid of the name cowboys because some cowboys in the past committed atrocities against Native Americans. Then it never stops. If this is how you really feel then i respect your opinion but you sound like your just taking the devil's advocate approach.

Re: Redskins Win In Appeals Court
 

Washington Reds

Re: Redskins Win In Appeals Court
 

This is racist...

[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_at9dOElQk"][yt]Y_at9dOElQk[/yt]
[/URL]

Re: Redskins Win In Appeals Court
 

[quote=SmootSmack;558009]I'm just going to repost my thoughts from the last time this topic came up.

It admittedly does get increasingly difficult to pretend that the team's name does not have some other connotation. And the really cold fact is that, because Native Americans have been so marginalized in our society (once their society), that the offensiveness passes unnoticed because there is really no one around to hear the tree fall in the forest. A name that gave that kind of depiction to Blacks or Ricans like me would get shouted down because there are enough people in that constituency with enough of a relevant voice sure to tell society that that is unacceptable.

Couple of ironies though. One is that the fact is that when you say the word "Redskins" in so-called mainstream U.S. society, what people think of first IS the football team, and NOT the ethnic group. Another is that research (which I don’t have right in front of me right now) reveals that Native Americans themselves throughout the years at all levels of sport have themselves named their teams Redskins. Hmm.

When people talked about "ni**ers" that word was laced with hatred and a misguided superiority at the time it was being said, with violence, lynchings, separate restrooms, back of the bus, you name it. But when we say the word Redskins today, there is no associated hatred or sense of
supremacy vis a vis Native Americans; the word comes out of the mouth without any associated negative baggage. Sure, it is the same "word," but the substance is not the same at all. The prevailing argument is that we should dispense with the word because it is offensive and does not
represent our society today. But since we know that it does not represent today's society, then the alleged offensive substance of the word has already been rendered meaningless !

Even on the team itself, I don't remember anyone thinking Mark Rypien was dumb or reviled as the quarterback because he was Native American; of course not. So, where is the real offensiveness? What was that we learned in school, "sticks and stones may break my bones..."

Growing up for me (and I’m sure others), the name depicted bravery and glory etc. and that, as far as the Washington Redskins were concerned specifically to be called a "true Redskin" was a badge of honor in the sports world and in the local community, as it stood for humble guys who worked hard on the field with great teamwork and gave to the community off of it. It was hardly
disparaging at all and really had nothing to do with offending Native Americans b/c again, Redskin conjured up the image of Darrell Green and Art Monk, not Sitting Bull.

As a minority myself, I sometimes find it perplexing that other minorities in the U.S. would look so quickly to self-identify as hyphenated, and to marginalize themselves by choosing to direct their collective energy to take up the cause of being offended by labels and semantics.[/quote]

Well said.

Re: Redskins Win In Appeals Court
 

I just read the decision and for those in the know, this is the David Sentelle D.C. Federal Appeals Court. There's nothing in it but a lot of kick the can down the road legaleze. The case was filed in 1992. The original court threw it out. The appeals court disagreed and told them to try again and they did. Now the appeals court approves of their decision. But the decision has nothing whatever to do with the moral acceptability of the word "Redskins". It's all about obscure questions of who has standing, laches, the attitude of Ed Williams in 1967. It's all bullshit, in other words. The court has no interest in chiming in about wether the word "Redskins" has any value at all. In fact, the whole opinion seems to me an elaborate attempt to avoid the very same. If I were to sum it up, I would do it this way: "The word Redskins may very well be offensive but that's not the Goddam business of this Court. Now we'll give you ten pages of nonsense so we don't have say it in such a vulgar way."

Re: Redskins Win In Appeals Court
 

[quote=Zerohero;558155]Again all these points are moot because that is not how the team's name ever was meant. And today again it represents the name Redskin in a good way like all other sports teams try to represent their towns and logos.

[/quote]

Like I said in an earlier post what was ok back in the 30's,40's or 50's isn't ok now.Wether like it or not the team name depicts native American skin color and no other name does that.Like it or not it makes for interesting discussion.So I guess my question to you is....pick a slur and ethnic slur and use it in a good way and tell me what happens?

Re: Redskins Win In Appeals Court
 

They will always be the Redskins to me, regardless.

Re: Redskins Win In Appeals Court
 

I lived in Atlanta in the 90's at the height of the Braves era of (alleged) dominance and I could see the Tomahawk Chop as somewhat offensive to Native Americans, mocking their war cries for a meaningless rallying cry. I know FSU does it, but they have also gone out of their way to embrace the Seminole tribe and have been very careful to their sensibilities. That being said, outside of the name and logo I've never felt the Redskins did anything to 'exploit' the Native American/Indian connection. An argument could be made about some of the Hail to the Redskins lyrics but it would be a stretch. I've never seen the correlation and being a minority I've not drawn the parallel to if they were called something derogatory to my race or any others.

Re: Redskins Win In Appeals Court
 

[quote=bigm29;558076]Same applies to the N word. who really cares... get over it[/quote]

There's a LOT of history tied to this word.. Without derailing the thread, it's comparing apples to oranges. Redskin was never universally used as a derogatory term used to oppress a race of people. Not the same thing.

Re: Redskins Win In Appeals Court
 

Washington Rednecks....will that make it any better?

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Good, keep the name that they've had for almost 90 years ..... It's not a name thats racially inclined! people take things way too seriously

Re: Redskins Win In Appeals Court
 

On the other sided of the coin.........

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fighting_Whites]Fighting Whites - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/url]

[url=http://www.cafepress.com/fightinwhite/107]Fighting the use of Native American stereotypes : Fightin Whites[/url]

Which I am reposting as well since the last time we did this........

Re: Redskins Win In Appeals Court
 

I did not anticipate - nor did I intend - for this thead to go in the direction that it did.

May I suggest to everyone here that they go and look up the legal term "Doctrine of Laches" to understand what the court ruling was and why the court made the ruling on the narrowest of terms possible?

In addition to any adrenaline-driven emotion regarding this matter, there is an interesting legal/social set of issues here which might start an interesting dialog on the matter.

Re: Redskins Win In Appeals Court
 

[quote=sportscurmudgeon;558262]I did not anticipate - nor did I intend - for this thead to go in the direction that it did.

May I suggest to everyone here that they go and look up the legal term "Doctrine of Laches" to understand what the court ruling was and why the court made the ruling on the narrowest of terms possible?

In addition to any adrenaline-driven emotion regarding this matter, there is an interesting legal/social set of issues here which might start an interesting dialog on the matter.[/quote]
[COLOR=DarkRed]
Okay. I did what you said and I still don't get it. I think it's because I need a few more hamsters in my brainwheel.[/COLOR]

[B]LACHES, DOCTRINE OF - Based on the maxim that equity aids the vigilant and not those who procrastinate regarding their rights; Neglect to assert a right or claim that, together with lapse of time and other circumstances, prejudices an adverse party. Neglecting to do what should or could, have been done to assert a claim or right for an unreasonable and unjustified time causing disadvantage to another.

Laches is similar to 'statute of limitations' except is equitable rather than statutory and is a common affirmative defense raised in civil actions.

Laches is derived from the French 'lecher' and is nearly synonymous with negligence.

In general, when a party has been guilty of laches in enforcing his right by great delay and lapse of time, this circumstance will at common law prejudice and sometimes operate in bar of a remedy which is discretionary for the court to afford. In courts of equity delay will also generally be prejudicial.

But laches may be excused from ignorance of the party's rights; from the obscurity of the transaction; by the pendency of a suit, and; where the party labors under a legal disability, as insanity, infancy and the like.[/B]