Re: Somebody please try to convince me that the FO has a plan.
 

[quote=redsk1;536707]My example was this years draft but the FO has had a long experience of not using the draft to build a team. I bet you if I researched who has had the most picks in the last 5 years we would find the consistently good teams.

I'm not saying that just b/c you have alot of picks automatically means you are going to be successful. I'm just saying our history of not using the draft has produced what? Mediocre football. Holes, gaps, and aging players.

Hey, i'm not saying you should ever trade draft picks. It makes sense sometimes. However we've been less than frugal over DS's tenure w/ the draft.

Yes, we had 10 picks last year. That was great, but again if i do the research we probably have had the fewest picks in the NFL over the last 5-10 years.[/quote]

Last year marked a new beginning for our team. Looking at the past 5 years is not an accurate picture to look at a team unless the front office structure and philosophy has remained the same for that time period. Before last year, the prior 4 years were spent in an effort to build a team that could "win now." We traded draft picks and mortgaged the future becuase Joe Gibbs had a limited window to work with to reach the superbowl. Gibbs failed.

After Gibbs retired, the plan had to change. Because of all the moves we made during Gibbs tenure, we were left with a pretty big hole to dig our way out of: Lots of old, declining players with cap figures making them uncuttable and a lack of draft picks. Its going to take time to dig out of that hole and start building for long-term sucess.

Last year we had all our starting players coming back, so we cut our older depth players, and replaced them with younger depth players in the draft. As it stands right now, we had 10 draft picks last year and we have 4 this year. So our two-year average for draft picks is currently sitting at 7. Theres a very good chance we trade down for more picks, so that average can be pushed up further.

This offseason, we've already cut every major older veteran that could be cut and replaced them with younger, promising players. We declined to resign a 30year old average Defensive lineman and weve declined to replace Washington by signing a mediocre talent to a long-term contract. We have a need at right tackle, but we declined to sign mediocre-talented RTs. This franchise is being smart and not committing money to unproven, average players. The only three major needs the team has right now on offense and defense are RT, RDE and SLB. We still have the draft and we have the 13th overall pick. That means we will fill one of those vacancies with a star player immediately or trade down and fill two or three of those vacancies with guys who can be solid players. By all accounts, Kareem Moore, Chris Horton, Devin Thomas, Malcom Kelly, and especially Fred Davis, and maybe even Rob Jackson will contribute significantly on offense and defense this year. Tryon is getting really good at special teams. Brennan should suprlant Collins as #2 QB in the next year or two.

Next year will be uncapped so we'll be able to cut older guys like Randy Thomas and hopefully guys like Rinehart will be ready by then. If not, we've got 6 picks already and we should get a Comp pick for Evans. If Daniels and Washington sign with other teams, we may get comp picks for them as well. If we're not one of the top 8 teams in the NFL in 2009, we'll also be able to sign as many FAs as we want without having to worry about the cap.

I am generally a very skeptical person, but everything this franchise is doing shows me its moving in the right direction. This franchise dug itself into a hole that got even worse when Joe Gibbs was here. We "went all in" for Gibbs and the gamble failed. its going to take time to dig ourselves out of it. We just need to show some patience.

Re: Somebody please try to convince me that the FO has a plan.
 

[quote=SmootSmack;536697]They do a lot of things well that are overlooked by the team's fans because we all want 16-0 seasons with Lombardi trophies at the end every year.[/quote]

Hey, I'm not that greedy! How about a playoff game or a winning season for starters?

Re: Somebody please try to convince me that the FO has a plan.
 

[quote=SmootSmack;536697]-Could they be better? Of course. I'm not naive to mistakes they've made. The Duckett trade was disatrous and unneccesary, as one example. But we see a Chad Rinehart drafted in the 3rd round not starting and suddenly the thought is OMG, the Redskins suck! They don't know how to even draft a 3rd rounder...yeah, but we drafted Chris Cooley in the 3rd round, we drafted Derrick Dockery in the 3rd round (but we tend to forget that). We see Devin Thomas not playing much his first year and we think This moron was a waste of a pick! But at the same time we want the FO to build through the draft, be patient, and not go for the quick fix all the time[/quote]To this, let me say that if the Redskins wanted a seamless transition between building predominantly through FA talent to building predominantly through the draft, picking at a similar hit rate to the rest of the league isn't good enough. We need(ed?) to take low risk players at positions of need with considerable upside. Even as I write that, it sounds impossible, but I know for a fact it was a reasonable expectation.

But ultimately, I have a real problem with the FO trying to pull the wool over the eyes of the fanbase by asking them to be patient with the building through the draft process, and then not demonstrating patience in the face of the Daniels injury by dealing for Jason Taylor. That is NOT building through the draft, it's throwing away your most valuable (wage-adjusted) pick for a 34 year old former superstar. Fine, if you think it's the move that gets us over the top, I impore you to do it. Just don't turn around after the season (and to Vinny's credit, he hasn't done this publically) and be like "we'll just be patient while we build through the draft." Uh, okay. Thanks for the reassurance.

I agree that the Redskins don't have a consistent, clear, long-term plan. They do seem to seize oppertunities in the market better than the league expectation, but that might just be thanks to having a huge cash surplus as an asset, and being so close to the salary cap that they have to wait for oppertunities (like a new CBA in 06 or a last capped year) to spend themselves ahead of their competition.

Re: Somebody please try to convince me that the FO has a plan.
 

I think the plan is pray no one gets hurt. Look we just have to be patient, We're along way from the start of the season. Campbell finally gets some consistency and our 4th ranked D can only be better with Big Al. We really do have to pray for no injuries though.

Re: Somebody please try to convince me that the FO has a plan.
 

[quote=KI Skins Fan;536730]Hey, I'm not that greedy! How about a playoff game or a winning season for starters?[/quote]

Didn't we have two winning seasons and two playoff appearances (with a win) in the last five years? Not great sure, but let's not act like we're just missing the playoffs year in and year out

Re: Somebody please try to convince me that the FO has a plan.
 

[quote=GTripp0012;536731]To this, let me say that if the Redskins wanted a seamless transition between building predominantly through FA talent to building predominantly through the draft, picking at a similar hit rate to the rest of the league isn't good enough. We need(ed?) to take low risk players at positions of need with considerable upside. Even as I write that, it sounds impossible, but I know for a fact it was a reasonable expectation.

But ultimately, I have a real problem with the FO trying to pull the wool over the eyes of the fanbase by asking them to be patient with the building through the draft process, and then not demonstrating patience in the face of the Daniels injury by dealing for Jason Taylor. That is NOT building through the draft, it's throwing away your most valuable (wage-adjusted) pick for a 34 year old former superstar. Fine, if you think it's the move that gets us over the top, I impore you to do it. Just don't turn around after the season (and to Vinny's credit, he hasn't done this publically) and be like "we'll just be patient while we build through the draft." Uh, okay. Thanks for the reassurance.

I agree that the Redskins don't have a consistent, clear, long-term plan. They do seem to seize oppertunities in the market better than the league expectation, but that might just be thanks to having a huge cash surplus as an asset, and being so close to the salary cap that they have to wait for oppertunities (like a new CBA in 06 or a last capped year) to spend themselves ahead of their competition.[/quote]

Fair point. I think there needs to be balance between the trades, draft, and free agency.

Re: Somebody please try to convince me that the FO has a plan.
 

[quote=redsk1;536717]I think you are seeing thru the b&g glasses. Yes, we have had some good draft picks over the last 5 years. We have some talent. I love some of our picks. We miss on some but so does everyone. We just don't have enough picks. You make a list of our core guys, w/ most i really like but w/ some who haven't done jack. We're talking philosophy not a few good draft picks.

Since you want to compare though lets compare a team or two that i mentioned...

SD: Rivers, sproles, Cromartie, Vincent Jackson, Merriman, Michael Turner (no longer there), good oline, good dline, Gates, Castillo

That was w/out doing research.

We don't have as much talent as you might think. I like our guys too but at this moment we don't have the talent that alot of the upper tier teams do.

Bottom line, building thru the draft is a proven winner. Not building thru the draft is not a proven winner. Until i see otherwise I'll have a problem w/ throwing away draft picks.[/quote]

What's your point here?

By the way, Vincent Jackson, the late 2nd round pick...had 3 catches his rookie season

Re: Somebody please try to convince me that the FO has a plan.
 

Whats the problem? we have a new plan every year?

Re: Somebody please try to convince me that the FO has a plan.
 

I do think a team could build a strategy off of trying to hit it big in the draft with mid round draft picks: going "BPA" as they say by looking for those high upside players who tend to be overvalued, but only giving the big money to the ones that pan out.

I tend to think this is the kind of strategy that Vinny wants to use, but he just can't do it in the environment that the Redskins have. Too much pressure to trade your picks for win-now opportunities. But, unfortunately, that's the difference between having a margin for error, and needing to nail the draft every year to support the age of your team from going all 2003 Raiders on us.

Re: Somebody please try to convince me that the FO has a plan.
 

At the end of the day, how many people really care if they have a plan or not. People just want results. Cerrato could hold a press conference and say "our plan is to completely gut our team of veterans, start all the young guys, and build a team for long term success" and after a 5-11 season we'd all say Booo!!!

Or he could say "We shelled out a few hundred million for the best Pro Bowlers money can buy, mortgaged our future, but this should work for a year until we have to dismantle the team"and after a Super Bowl win we'd all say Yay!!!!

Re: Somebody please try to convince me that the FO has a plan.
 

Well, if we accidentally won a Super Bowl one year (lets say 2010) with the FO making a bunch of bad long term decisions, I'm not sure how much credit they would really be deserving of.

People know that I'm not hesitant to extend the congratulatory stick to organizations that make good long term moves, even ones that I spend the better part of four months wishing the very worst on (Eagles). I also feel that I'm not likely to confuse unexpected success for a good team building philosophy.

The silver lining is that none of the Skins relative successes have been undeserved in the last eight to ten years or so. The playoff win was the result of shrewd FA moves in 2005 that any other team could have made, but didn't.

Re: Somebody please try to convince me that the FO has a plan.
 

I think the plan is to get younger and stay competitive at the same time, with the means that are available at the present time. That appears to be what they're doing. Maybe that is oversimplifying it, but that appears to be their plan.

Re: Somebody please try to convince me that the FO has a plan.
 

[quote=53Fan;536752]I think the plan is to get younger and stay competitive at the same time, with the means that are available at the present time. That appears to be what they're doing. Maybe that is oversimplifying it, but that appears to be their plan.[/quote]Right, but then you have to adjust your draft strategy to support that, which means "Mel Kiper likes his upside" or "we just took BPA" is no longer a reasonable defense for the Devin Thomas pick.

A more reasonable defense would be "we need our third receiver this year to come from the draft. we scoured through the prospects for the most productive college receivers, and we decided that Jordy Nelson/Limas Sweed/DeSean Jackson gives us the best chance to fill that need cheaply, and we like what he adds to our special teams as well".

And I understand that Sweed (who I admit, topped my WR draft board last year, with Donnie Avery at No. 2) struggled every bit as much as Thomas last year. But you ask me who will have the better career of the two, I guarentee that it will be Sweed.

Re: Somebody please try to convince me that the FO has a plan.
 

How can a team accidentally win a superbowl?

Re: Somebody please try to convince me that the FO has a plan.
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;536763]How can a team accidentally win a superbowl?[/quote]Hypothetically:

Let's say the 2009 team goes to the playoffs on a first round bye, wins a playoff game, and gets eliminated in the NFC Championship game. In the offseason, a new CBA is agreed to by the players union and the league owners. Campbell gets the franchise tag, but Carlos Rogers signs with the Falcons for 10 million a year. In the preseason, Clinton Portis tears two ligaments in his knee and misses the year. Chris Samuels isn't healthy when the year starts. Stephon Heyer is the de facto starter at LT. Devin Thomas doesn't even make the team. We picked up the options on Carter and Randle El, who are both in decline at this point. Jansen is cut, but there's no one on the line to replace him but Heyer. Because the team finished in the top four teams the year before, we can only sign one player (to replace Rogers) and the market doesn't offer anything we like anyway. [B]Point is: clearly, this is a worse team than the 2009 version (hypotetically).[/B]

Only, the team wins 10 games anyway, and the NFC East. Jason Campbell makes the pro-bowl, and Ladell Betts has an improbable 1,200 yd season at age 31 (averging only 3.9 YPC though). The defense gives up a ton of points, but also happened to lead the league in turnovers forced. The Redskins are only +21 in pt. differential, but win the division anyway, thanks to crappy play from Eli Manning and Donovan McNabb, and a total defensive collapse in Dallas.

The team isn't expected to make a big splash in the playoffs, but wins a hard fought game against the upstart 11-win Lions during WC Weekend, and the next week, faces No. 1 seed Green Bay. Green Bay won 14 games in 2010, and is the media darling, but the Redskins win a low scoring game thanks to a complete meltdown by Aaron Rodgers, 4 INTs and a FL. The Championship game is played at FedEx field because the 2nd seed Falcons lost a nailbiter to the 9 win WC 49ers after Mark Sanchez (1:1 INT-TD rate in 2010) gets a game clinching INT dropped by Carlos Rogers. The 49ers really have no business even being in the playoffs, but thanks to back to back road wins, are Washington's opponent in the 2010 NFC Championship game. Washington wins a poorly played ball game 20-11.

Then in SB XLV, Jason Campbell has a banner day, and Norv Turner loses for the first time in his career against a former employer (yes, he's now 8-0 against the Raiders and 2-1 against the Skins). The Redskins win SB 45. And yet, are in much worse shape going forward then they currently appear to be.

That's what I mean by accidentally winning a SB. A non-super bowl champion regresses in skill, but wins a championship the next year anyway.

Re: Somebody please try to convince me that the FO has a plan.
 

[quote=GTripp0012;536758]Right, but then you have to adjust your draft strategy to support that, which means "Mel Kiper likes his upside" or "we just took BPA" is no longer a reasonable defense for the Devin Thomas pick.

A more reasonable defense would be "we need our third receiver this year to come from the draft. we scoured through the prospects for the most productive college receivers, and we decided that Jordy Nelson/Limas Sweed/DeSean Jackson gives us the best chance to fill that need cheaply, and we like what he adds to our special teams as well".

And I understand that Sweed (who I admit, topped my WR draft board last year, with Donnie Avery at No. 2) struggled every bit as much as Thomas last year. But you ask me who will have the better career of the two, I guarentee that it will be Sweed.[/quote]
By means that are available at the time I'm refering to draft, FA's, or trade. Picking Thomas did make us younger and I believe we stayed competitive despite the last half of the season. Was it a good pick? I think that is yet to be seen, but we did need help at the wideout position. With our past attempts at finding a receiver in free agency, taking a young talented one in the draft does'nt seem like such a bad idea. Taking Thomas instead of Sweed does'nt vary from the plan. I consider that more of an evaluation issue.

Re: Somebody please try to convince me that the FO has a plan.
 

[quote=53Fan;536768]By means that are available at the time I'm refering to draft, FA's, or trade. Picking Thomas did make us younger and I believe we stayed competitive despite the last half of the season. Was it a good pick? I think that is yet to be seen, but we did need help at the wideout position. With our past attempts at finding a receiver in free agency, taking a young talented one in the draft does'nt seem like such a bad idea. Taking Thomas instead of Sweed does'nt vary from the plan. I consider that more of an evaluation issue.[/quote]Well, it's evaluation, but it's also negligence.

It's not something that you can do if you are trying to use the draft to supplement an aging team. You don't have the luxury to limit your search to WRs 6'3" or taller if you are serious about taking BPA. That's only the case if you are serious about taking people who look like football players, but you aren't actually concerned with the result.

If you are going with a load up on picks and build exclusively through the draft strategy, drafting a specific body type becomes far more defensible, even if he busts. You simply just don't give him another contract. If the number of picks you have is equal to or less than the number of needs you have to fill, you can't miss. Period.

Re: Somebody please try to convince me that the FO has a plan.
 

[quote=KI Skins Fan;536618]I am one frustrated Redskins fan. Here's what I see.

We've gone back to the same bad habits that have cost us draft picks and cap space and that I believe will surely doom us to continued mediocrity. [b]The Jason Taylor fiasco, another of our customary panic moves, cost us dearly in draft picks. [/b]Albert Haynesworth, as great as he is, represents a whopping chunk of our cap space which seems to have precluded our making other FA moves.

Meanwhile, we have holes to fill - big holes. We need a RT, a SLB, a RDE, OL backups, a Kicker, a Punter, a PR, and maybe more. Right now, it looks like we might bring back Daniels and Washington. That's nice, but, at this point in their careers they're only stop-gap solutions.

Even with Haynesworth, this doesn't look to me like a team that is poised to make a playoff run in the tough NFC East. Sure, I wanted Haynesworth, but what do I know? I'm just a dumb fan who loves to watch great football players do their thing in B&G. I don't need to have a plan. But shouldn't the FO have one? If they do, I just can't see it.

If you can detect a plan in all this, clue me in. Also, what do [B]you[/B] think the plan should be?[/quote]

The move for Jason Taylor was heralded at the time. That was a serious need after that season ending injury on the first day of camp.

Besides, there was no way of knowing that JT was going to be injured for that long, he had a long track record of consecutive starts going when he came to Washington.

Re: Somebody please try to convince me that the FO has a plan.
 

[quote=SmootSmack;536746]At the end of the day, how many people really care if they have a plan or not. People just want results. Cerrato could hold a press conference and say "our plan is to completely gut our team of veterans, start all the young guys, and build a team for long term success" and after a 5-11 season we'd all say Booo!!!

Or he could say "We shelled out a few hundred million for the best Pro Bowlers money can buy, mortgaged our future, but this should work for a year until we have to dismantle the team"and after a Super Bowl win we'd all say Yay!!!![/quote]

I wouldn't. I like that plan. That's the way the Caps were built. Now, I would only want to go through that plan if Cerrato was not the architect. I am one of those that has NO, not little, but NO confidence in Vinny Cerrato. Not has he provided one shred of legitimacy.

Re: Somebody please try to convince me that the FO has a plan.
 

This got a bit interesting, though I have to admit when I first saw the title I was like 'here we go again...'

Snyder clearly has a "business plan," and maybe that's what frustrates us the most, we see that there hasn't been a true effort made to build the team patiently w/depth.

I'm not saying that he deliberately sets out to raise expectations & then field a mediocre team w/little to no depth. But the PR/marketing biz was how he got rich to start with, and his financial success w/the Redskins has only reinforced his business acumen.

I'm sure in his mind he believes that the team can be good almost every year. And I'm damn sure that in his mind the Skins have a "plan." We may not like it, but there's a plan fo sho.

Re: Somebody please try to convince me that the FO has a plan.
 

[quote=PennSkinsFan;536776]I wouldn't. I like that plan. That's the way the Caps were built. Now, I would only want to go through that plan if Cerrato was not the architect. I am one of those that has NO, not little, but NO confidence in Vinny Cerrato. Not has he provided one shred of legitimacy.[/quote]

I love the Caps, but really would Redskins fans put up with the teams being absolutely abysmal for several years the way the Caps were before now finally being legit contenders? Probably not, because most people don't care as much about the Caps, and don't realize how awful the team was for a while (overpaid veterans, no depth, etc.) .I'd wager that 4 out of every 5 people think they hired McPhee last year and this was a quick turnaround.

I think there are many people that have decided to gloss over any good moves by VC and only acknowledge them as "dumb luck" and are determined to never give Cerrato any credit no matter what. The thought that a team built by Cerrato could win really bothers them. They'd almost rather they didn't win.

Re: Somebody please try to convince me that the FO has a plan.
 

[quote=SmootSmack;536778]I love the Caps, but really would Redskins fans put up with the teams being absolutely abysmal for several years the way the Caps were before now finally being legit contenders? Probably not, because most people don't care as much about the Caps, and don't realize how awful the team was for a while (overpaid veterans, no depth, etc.) .I'd wager that 4 out of every 5 people think they hired McPhee last year and this was a quick turnaround.

I think there are many people that have decided to gloss over any good moves by VC and only acknowledge them as "dumb luck" and are determined to never give Cerrato any credit no matter what. The thought that a team built by Cerrato could win really bothers them. They'd almost rather they didn't win.[/quote]

While the Skins havent been abysmal they havent been very good either for going on 20 years now and overpaid vets and no depth are Skins trademarks. When a team built by VC wins something let me know but until then it business as usual in Redskins Park.

Re: Somebody please try to convince me that the FO has a plan.
 

[quote=GTripp0012;536766]Hypothetically:

Let's say the 2009 team goes to the playoffs on a first round bye, wins a playoff game, and gets eliminated in the NFC Championship game. In the offseason, a new CBA is agreed to by the players union and the league owners. Campbell gets the franchise tag, but Carlos Rogers signs with the Falcons for 10 million a year. In the preseason, Clinton Portis tears two ligaments in his knee and misses the year. Chris Samuels isn't healthy when the year starts. Stephon Heyer is the de facto starter at LT. Devin Thomas doesn't even make the team. We picked up the options on Carter and Randle El, who are both in decline at this point. Jansen is cut, but there's no one on the line to replace him but Heyer. Because the team finished in the top four teams the year before, we can only sign one player (to replace Rogers) and the market doesn't offer anything we like anyway. [B]Point is: clearly, this is a worse team than the 2009 version (hypotetically).[/B]

Only, the team wins 10 games anyway, and the NFC East. Jason Campbell makes the pro-bowl, and Ladell Betts has an improbable 1,200 yd season at age 31 (averging only 3.9 YPC though). The defense gives up a ton of points, but also happened to lead the league in turnovers forced. The Redskins are only +21 in pt. differential, but win the division anyway, thanks to crappy play from Eli Manning and Donovan McNabb, and a total defensive collapse in Dallas.

The team isn't expected to make a big splash in the playoffs, but wins a hard fought game against the upstart 11-win Lions during WC Weekend, and the next week, faces No. 1 seed Green Bay. Green Bay won 14 games in 2010, and is the media darling, but the Redskins win a low scoring game thanks to a complete meltdown by Aaron Rodgers, 4 INTs and a FL. The Championship game is played at FedEx field because the 2nd seed Falcons lost a nailbiter to the 9 win WC 49ers after Mark Sanchez (1:1 INT-TD rate in 2010) gets a game clinching INT dropped by Carlos Rogers. The 49ers really have no business even being in the playoffs, but thanks to back to back road wins, are Washington's opponent in the 2010 NFC Championship game. Washington wins a poorly played ball game 20-11.

Then in SB XLV, Jason Campbell has a banner day, and Norv Turner loses for the first time in his career against a former employer (yes, he's now 8-0 against the Raiders and 2-1 against the Skins). The Redskins win SB 45. And yet, are in much worse shape going forward then they currently appear to be.

That's what I mean by accidentally winning a SB. A non-super bowl champion regresses in skill, but wins a championship the next year anyway.[/quote] Wow, the short bus parked for a long time at the Imagination Station for that one!!!

If that happened, we'd all be as giddy as pigs in sh*t so even if we 'accidentally' won a Super Bowl (you forgot to mention that the Chargers were only in the Super Bowl because the Patriots plane was diverted to the island from Lost so they were substituted as the AFC runner up) people would be shouting Hallelujah all year long.

Re: Somebody please try to convince me that the FO has a plan.
 

[quote=SmootSmack;536741]What's your point here?

By the way, Vincent Jackson, the late 2nd round pick...had 3 catches his rookie season[/quote]

My post was in response to someone saying b/c we have drafted JC, LL, CC, Horton, and others that we have a long term plan. I was simply making a point that we have no long term plan. Just cause we drafted some guys here and there doesn't make it a long term plan.

I also made the point that we don't have as much talent as many think we do.

I think you missed my point.

Re: Somebody please try to convince me that the FO has a plan.
 

[quote=SmootSmack;536746]At the end of the day, how many people really care if they have a plan or not. People just want results. Cerrato could hold a press conference and say "our plan is to completely gut our team of veterans, start all the young guys, and build a team for long term success" and after a 5-11 season we'd all say Booo!!!

Or he could say "We shelled out a few hundred million for the best Pro Bowlers money can buy, mortgaged our future, but this should work for a year until we have to dismantle the team"and after a Super Bowl win we'd all say Yay!!!![/quote]

Yes, it's all about results and our results from our current "no plan" approach haven't been good. When we're a consistent winner I'll change my tune.

I too wouldn't mind a couple bad years if we were building something here. Sometimes what's best for you doesn't make you happy right now.

Re: Somebody please try to convince me that the FO has a plan.
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;536722]It was pretty obvious that it was w/out research, and I'm thinking it doesn't really prove much. At least I don't understand the point you are trying to prove and how the list you made proves, especially when the list that was written "through B&G glasses" certainly proves that we have used the draft to a certain degree and Ruhskins added a note on each player as to why he is on the list. Maybe you could expand on the one team you listed and say how that disproves Ruhskins point?[/quote]

Look just trying to make a point to compare a team that has been successful over the last few years consistently who has gotten there by using the draft wisely vs the skins who haven't been ones to use the draft to the full extent and who have been wasteful w/ picks.

Listen, i like our picks over the last few years. I really think Kelly/Davis/Thomas can do some good things for us soon. We've made some good choices.

Just think what the Skins could be w/ a combination of full drafts plus the ability to get a good FA when necessary. We have all of the assets but we don't have a long term plan.

Re: Somebody please try to convince me that the FO has a plan.
 

[quote=SmootSmack;536697]I'm not going to speak for the other mods, but for myself I think

-They do a lot of things well that are overlooked by the team's fans because we all want 16-0 seasons with Lombardi trophies at the end every year

-Sometimes it may seem like I go overboard to defend the FO, but it's sometimes to provide the other perspective to the constant bashing

-I think if people took a step back they would see that a lot of other teams (even the best) make bad decisions and have bad luck. The idea that everyone else is doing it right and we're doing it wrong is naive

-A lot of people here are loving what the Giants did this offseason (so far). But we needed to improve our offensive and defensive lines and we've taken steps to do that. The Giants needed to find a WR and what have they done to address that? It's early and I expect they'll (although they deny it) use their draft picks and/or talent on the defensive line to get that WR. But they haven't yet.

-Are they good at what they do? In many ways yes. We've made several good choices in the draft and free agency. I know the common refrain is "Well how hard is to know to draft Sean Taylor?" Well, a lot of teams have made bad choices in the first round. And I know most have written off Thomas and Kelly. Well, that really just goes back to point #1.

-Could they be better? Of course. I'm not naive to mistakes they've made. The Duckett trade was disatrous and unneccesary, as one example. But we see a Chad Rinehart drafted in the 3rd round not starting and suddenly the thought is OMG, the Redskins suck! They don't know how to even draft a 3rd rounder...yeah, but we drafted Chris Cooley in the 3rd round, we drafted Derrick Dockery in the 3rd round (but we tend to forget that). We see Devin Thomas not playing much his first year and we think This moron was a waste of a pick! But at the same time we want the FO to build through the draft, be patient, and not go for the quick fix all the time[/quote]

Good post and a fair one. I try to be objective but it seems that they make the same mistakes over and over again. I know they've made some nice moves and when they do I'll be the first one to say so. It's just that the bad ones are so bad that it's almost comical.

Re: Somebody please try to convince me that the FO has a plan.
 

I think the plan exists and sort of is a two-phase concept. We saw phase one within about 48 hrs of FA. Al and Hall were preconceived and then Dock just fell into our laps like a gift from the Almighty... like Hall did last season. I bet that if Dock wasn't cut we'd have signed a different OL guy rather quickly, maybe the kid Willis. As it turned out I think we did the right thing.

Phase two requires patience. We don't have oodles of cash to spend and frankly there isn't a plethora of coveted talent on the market anyway. We'll get Daniels or another serviceable LDE, however I'd prefer big D back. I feel very confident we sign at least one more OL guy in FA; however, it won't surprise me if we wait till after the draft as it's predictable more quality vets will be cut due to their salary and the simple fact teams will have drafted franchise OTs. Where I see uncertainty is at OLB. Contrary to some of the talk I don't think there's a ton of depth and talent at the position in this year's draft. That means we have less to choose from, it also means other teams have less to choose from so they're less likely to part w/ expensive veterans we could sign and get a few productive seasons from. For this reason I think Vinny's smart move is to take an OLB w/ our first pick. Maybe a tweener OLB/DE as GTripp has mentioned.

As to the long-term... pfff, there's no plan. We've got an unproven HC and a QB yet to establish his franchise status. I think JC makes big progress via Zorn's tutelage this season, which obviously helps the offense. But the question mark(s) at WR are undeniable and w/o serious improvement from that group we won't be a contender for anything. Success allows for a plan. Continued struggles probably engender another changeover at HC/QB. As the Zen master says...

Re: Somebody please try to convince me that the FO has a plan.
 

[quote=The Goat;536793]I think the plan exists and sort of is a two-phase concept. We saw phase one within about 48 hrs of FA. Al and Hall were preconceived and then Dock just fell into our laps like a gift from the Almighty... like Hall did last season. I bet that if Dock wasn't cut we'd have signed a different OL guy rather quickly, maybe the kid Willis. As it turned out I think we did the right thing.

Phase two requires patience. We don't have oodles of cash to spend and frankly there isn't a plethora of coveted talent on the market anyway. We'll get Daniels or another serviceable LDE, however I'd prefer big D back. I feel very confident we sign at least one more OL guy in FA; however, it won't surprise me if we wait till after the draft as it's predictable more quality vets will be cut due to their salary and the simple fact teams will have drafted franchise OTs. Where I see uncertainty is at OLB. Contrary to some of the talk I don't think there's a ton of depth and talent at the position in this year's draft. That means we have less to choose from, it also means other teams have less to choose from so they're less likely to part w/ expensive veterans we could sign and get a few productive seasons from. For this reason I think Vinny's smart move is to take an OLB w/ our first pick. Maybe a tweener OLB/DE as GTripp has mentioned.

As to the long-term... pfff, there's no plan. We've got an unproven HC and a QB yet to establish his franchise status. [B]I think JC makes big progress [/B]via Zorn's tutelage this season, which obviously helps the offense. But the question mark(s) at WR are undeniable and w/o serious improvement from that group we won't be a contender for anything. Success allows for a plan. Continued struggles probably engender another changeover at HC/QB. As the Zen master says...[/quote]

All good plans Goat! I hope your right about JC

Re: Somebody please try to convince me that the FO has a plan.
 

[quote=The Goat;536793]I think the plan exists and sort of is a two-phase concept. We saw phase one within about 48 hrs of FA. Al and Hall were preconceived and then Dock just fell into our laps like a gift from the Almighty... like Hall did last season. I bet that if Dock wasn't cut we'd have signed a different OL guy rather quickly, maybe the kid Willis. As it turned out I think we did the right thing.

Phase two requires patience. We don't have oodles of cash to spend and frankly there isn't a plethora of coveted talent on the market anyway. We'll get Daniels or another serviceable LDE, however I'd prefer big D back. I feel very confident we sign at least one more OL guy in FA; however, it won't surprise me if we wait till after the draft as it's predictable more quality vets will be cut due to their salary and the simple fact teams will have drafted franchise OTs. Where I see uncertainty is at OLB. Contrary to some of the talk I don't think there's a ton of depth and talent at the position in this year's draft. That means we have less to choose from, it also means other teams have less to choose from so they're less likely to part w/ expensive veterans we could sign and get a few productive seasons from. For this reason I think Vinny's smart move is to take an OLB w/ our first pick. Maybe a tweener OLB/DE as GTripp has mentioned.

As to the long-term... pfff, there's no plan. We've got an unproven HC and a QB yet to establish his franchise status. I think JC makes big progress via Zorn's tutelage this season, which obviously helps the offense. But the question mark(s) at WR are undeniable and w/o serious improvement from that group we won't be a contender for anything. Success allows for a plan. Continued struggles probably engender another changeover at HC/QB. As the Zen master says...[/quote]

Excellent post! Everything you wrote makes sense to me.

I only disagree with you about the ability of JC to lead this team. On a physical level I have problems with his slow release, his inaccuracy, and the flat trajectory on his deep passes. On a mental level, I don't think that he usually makes decisions quickly enough. I also question his standing as an team leader. I don't see him transmitting his passion for winning to his teammates. Lastly, he just doesn't make enough big plays. Sometimes a QB needs to make a play at a critical time of the game whether or not defenders are draped all over him.

That said, I'd like JC to prove me and the rest of his doubters wrong. That would be wonderful! Nevertheless, until JC steps up to the next level or the Redskins find the right QB to lead them they're not going to be a dominant team.

Re: Somebody please try to convince me that the FO has a plan.
 

[quote=KI Skins Fan;536853]Excellent post! Everything you wrote makes sense to me.

I only disagree with you about the ability of JC to lead this team. On a physical level I have problems with his slow release, his inaccuracy, and the flat trajectory on his deep passes. On a mental level, I don't think that he usually makes decisions quickly enough. I also question his standing as an team leader. I don't see him transmitting his passion for winning to his teammates. Lastly, he just doesn't make enough big plays. Sometimes a QB needs to make a play at a critical time of the game whether or not defenders are draped all over him.

That said, I'd like JC to prove me and the rest of his doubters wrong. That would be wonderful! Nevertheless, until JC steps up to the next level or the Redskins find the right QB to lead them they're not going to be a dominant team.[/quote]

It really doesn't matter what we think, his teammates see him as a leader so that's all that matters.

Re: Somebody please try to convince me that the FO has a plan.
 

[quote=Mattyk72;536854]It really doesn't matter what we think, his teammates see him as a leader so that's all that matters.[/quote]

No, the number of W's is all that matters. I'll make you a deal: since I'm no QB expert, I'll [B]try[/B] to hold my comments on JC and we can all judge his effectiveness during the upcoming season by the best measure I can think of - wins.

Re: Somebody please try to convince me that the FO has a plan.
 

[quote=KI Skins Fan;536875]No, the number of W's is all that matters. I'll make you a deal: since I'm no QB expert, I'll [B]try[/B] to hold my comments on JC and we can all judge his effectiveness during the upcoming season by the best measure I can think of - wins.[/quote]

So if wins is all that matters why did you bring up the leadership angle in the first place?

Re: Somebody please try to convince me that the FO has a plan.
 

I agree with Matty, all that matters is that we go to the Superbowl, and whether JC produces or not is irrelevent.

Re: Somebody please try to convince me that the FO has a plan.
 

[quote=The Goat;536793]I think the plan exists and sort of is a two-phase concept. We saw phase one within about 48 hrs of FA. Al and Hall were preconceived and then Dock just fell into our laps like a gift from the Almighty... like Hall did last season. I bet that if Dock wasn't cut we'd have signed a different OL guy rather quickly, maybe the kid Willis. As it turned out I think we did the right thing.

Phase two requires patience. We don't have oodles of cash to spend and frankly there isn't a plethora of coveted talent on the market anyway. We'll get Daniels or another serviceable LDE, however I'd prefer big D back. I feel very confident we sign at least one more OL guy in FA; however, it won't surprise me if we wait till after the draft as it's predictable more quality vets will be cut due to their salary and the simple fact teams will have drafted franchise OTs. Where I see uncertainty is at OLB. Contrary to some of the talk I don't think there's a ton of depth and talent at the position in this year's draft. That means we have less to choose from, it also means other teams have less to choose from so they're less likely to part w/ expensive veterans we could sign and get a few productive seasons from. For this reason I think Vinny's smart move is to take an OLB w/ our first pick. Maybe a tweener OLB/DE as GTripp has mentioned.

As to the long-term... pfff, there's no plan. We've got an unproven HC and a QB yet to establish his franchise status. I think JC makes big progress via Zorn's tutelage this season, which obviously helps the offense. But the question mark(s) at WR are undeniable and w/o serious improvement from that group we won't be a contender for anything. Success allows for a plan. Continued struggles probably engender another changeover at HC/QB. As the Zen master says...[/quote]

I agree with the short term plan portion, and also think Vinny and crew probably, hopefully, have looked at what veterans have roster bonuses due and are targeting one or two players for our needs. Like Goat pointed out, after the draft several teams will be re-evaluating their rosters, and hopefully, in addition to whoever we draft, we will fill out our team.
I think the long-term plan is with Zorn. DS has tried bringing in big name/high profile coaches, with little to no success, he brought back JG - still my favorite move under his ownership, and now he has a young coach, and I believe that unless Zorn just cracks, DS will do everything possible to develop this guy and therefore the team into a SB caliber contender.

Plainly stated, the Long Term plan is to develop a newb HC, understanding he is not a "legend" and will make mistakes, and let this team grow and develop under his leadership.

I doubt most fans really want to hear about long term plans: look at the recent threads "when do we cut MK & DT" in another the author of the OP of this thread who wants a plan, also wants to bring in a WR (Holt) who is in his 13th year and noticibly declining. I certainly have actions I would have liked to seen happen (Hunter, Hixon) but VC and DS, look at all the options coming up and don't always go with the fan favorite of the day. That IS a good thing.
So yes I believe there is a plan, both short and long term, I am also certain many of the choices will irritate and confuse me, because I am not privy to the details of those plans.

Re: Somebody please try to convince me that the FO has a plan.
 

[quote=redsk1;536787]My post was in response to someone saying b/c we have drafted JC, LL, CC, Horton, and others that we have a long term plan. I was simply making a point that we have no long term plan. Just cause we drafted some guys here and there doesn't make it a long term plan.

I also made the point that we don't have as much talent as many think we do.

I think you missed my point.[/quote]

I'm still not sure you had one. I didn't get the whole Chargers reference quite honestly

Re: Somebody please try to convince me that the FO has a plan.
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;536763]How can a team accidentally win a superbowl?[/quote]


See Cowboys under Barry Switzer.

Re: Somebody please try to convince me that the FO has a plan.
 

[quote=Pocket$ $traight;536932]See Cowboys under Barry Switzer.[/quote]

Nah, that was a team that won without a head coach.

Re: Somebody please try to convince me that the FO has a plan.
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;536890]I doubt most fans really want to hear about long term plans: look at the [B]recent threads "when do we cut MK & DT"[/B] in another the author of the OP of this thread who wants a plan, also wants to bring in a WR (Holt) who is in his 13th year and noticibly declining. I certainly have actions I would have liked to seen happen (Hunter, Hixon) but VC and DS, look at all the options coming up and don't always go with the fan favorite of the day. That IS a good thing. [/quote]Well, this is going to seem nitpicky, but it's important to realize that the thread came with a qualifier. It wasn't asking how quickly can we release these guys, it was basically asking how many zero production seasons we wait through before optimism gives way to reality. It's an important disctiction, because if both guys combine for 1,300 yards and 8 TDs this year, the entire thread premise is moot.

Re: Somebody please try to convince me that the FO has a plan.
 

[quote=KI Skins Fan;536618]I am one frustrated Redskins fan. Here's what I see.

We've gone back to the same bad habits that have cost us draft picks and cap space and that I believe will surely doom us to continued mediocrity. The Jason Taylor fiasco, another of our customary panic moves, cost us dearly in draft picks. Albert Haynesworth, as great as he is, represents a whopping chunk of our cap space which seems to have precluded our making other FA moves.

Meanwhile, we have holes to fill - big holes. We need a RT, a SLB, a RDE, OL backups, a Kicker, a Punter, a PR, and maybe more. Right now, it looks like we might bring back Daniels and Washington. That's nice, but, at this point in their careers they're only stop-gap solutions.

Even with Haynesworth, this doesn't look to me like a team that is poised to make a playoff run in the tough NFC East. Sure, I wanted Haynesworth, but what do I know? I'm just a dumb fan who loves to watch great football players do their thing in B&G. I don't need to have a plan. But shouldn't the FO have one? If they do, I just can't see it.

If you can detect a plan in all this, clue me in. Also, what do [B]you[/B] think the plan should be?[/quote]

...do you think the Falcons had a plan..or the Dolphins..and we didn't?...all they had was the loser's schedule and got lucky with Qbs that didn't lose more games than were won..

the plan has always been make a splash bring in the best you can and continue to sell tickets..
improve and like in any sport hope the stars align themselves ..football has 45
players..all with a role..you coach em up and play to win. ..we get a decent draw with the schedule this year...that will play as important a role as Jason Campbell proving that he wasn't just another mistake made at QB in Washington