Re: Brunell and Redskins Reportedly Close to Restructured Deal
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10;280903]I think you are overrating Gibbs' current opinion of Brunell. The team needs salary cap space and went to Brunell to get it. They could have cut him and gained $2.1 million in space, or they could ask him to take a paycut and gain even more space.

Gibbs is the team president. He went to Brunell knowing that at the very least, he was going to get that $2.1 million in space. That's what is motivating Brunell to accept the paycut. Brunell knows that he's not worth much on the open market these days, and that whatever he could get from the Skins in this restructured deal would be the most $ he could get in 2007. What was the catalyst to make Brunell realize that? The team, and it's team president, had to make it real clear: "Mark, accept a pay reduction so we can save more than $2.1 million. Or we're going to cut you and save the $2.1 million. Those are your options."

In the words of AC/DC, "listen to the money talk." It says it all. When Brunell was signed to a $42 million deal, we all knew what that meant for Patrick Ramsey, and look what happened to him. Now, Gibbs is cutting Brunell's salary. Campbell is the guy.[/QUOTE]


I understand MB's motivation for taking the deal but I dont understand the Redskins' motivation for the offer. It seems that the $ saved by restructure or cut is about the same so why was option 1 needed? IMO, because Gibbs loves MB and still thinks he can play.

Re: Brunell and Redskins Reportedly Close to Restructured Deal
 

[quote=irish;280904]I did and for once I was wrong (LOL).

I think when JC was brought in last year the season was over and the team had nothing to lose no matter how he played. Now in 2007 the slate is clean and in Sept everyone will have a shot again so JC's play will be looked at with a different mindset by Gibbs. I believe that Gibbs will be a little quicker to pull the pin on JC if he sees the offense sputter and the season looks like its slipping away. I'm sure the switch has been made to JC but I'm not sure thats its permanent.[/quote]

For once? ;) At least you can admit it, there are plenty of people here that don't.

Gibbs let him work through his struggles last year so I don't see why he would have a quick hook with him this year. Besides, I think Campbell is going to be so improved that Gibbs won't even have to think twice about it.

Brunell is 37 and coming off shoulder surgery... I think even Gibbs can see the writing on the wall. Gibbs wants to win at any cost, and I think it's clear Campbell gives the team the best shot at winning. Campbell is in year 3 and he's a guy that Gibbs gave up alot to get... it's time to see if this investment is going to pay off.

Re: Brunell and Redskins Reportedly Close to Restructured Deal
 

he is a good locker room precense and our focus this year is rebuild the defense and keep the offense the same

Re: Brunell and Redskins Reportedly Close to Restructured Deal
 

[quote=irish;280906]I understand MB's motivation for taking the deal but I dont understand the Redskins' motivation for the offer. It seems that the $ saved by restructure or cut is about the same so why was option 1 needed? IMO, because Gibbs loves MB and still thinks he can play.[/quote]

Are you mathematically challenged? The difference between $2.1 million (savings if cut) and $3.5 million (savings under my restructure scenario) is big. $1.4 million to be exact.

$3.5 million is 67% more than $2.1 million. About the same? Wha??

You can do a lot with $1.4 million. You can fit the first year of a 2nd round pick's contract in that amount of space.

Re: Brunell and Redskins Reportedly Close to Restructured Deal
 

[quote=irish;280906]I understand MB's motivation for taking the deal but I dont understand the Redskins' motivation for the offer. It seems that the $ saved by restructure or cut is about the same so why was option 1 needed? IMO, because Gibbs loves MB and still thinks he can play.[/quote]

He saves us more by restructuring vs. cutting him.

Re: Brunell and Redskins Reportedly Close to Restructured Deal
 

[quote=Schneed10;280909]Are you mathematically challenged? The difference between $2.1 million (savings if cut) and $3.5 million (savings under my restructure scenario) is big. $1.4 million to be exact.

$3.5 million is 67% more than $2.1 million. About the same? Wha??

You can do a lot with $1.4 million. You can fit the first year of a 2nd round pick's contract in that amount of space.[/quote]

Seriously, that's a huge difference.

Re: Brunell and Redskins Reportedly Close to Restructured Deal
 

Let's also consider it adds one less need to our offseason by keeping Brunell. If we cut him we'd have to sift through the scrap heap of NFL backups, bring him in and get him up to speed in this offense that by Collins' account takes a year to learn.

Re: Brunell and Redskins Reportedly Close to Restructured Deal
 

If Brunell reasonably reworks his deal (and he will), only a F... idiot cuts him. Put it to bed

Re: Brunell and Redskins Reportedly Close to Restructured Deal
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10;280909]Are you mathematically challenged? The difference between $2.1 million (savings if cut) and $3.5 million (savings under my restructure scenario) is big. $1.4 million to be exact.

$3.5 million is 67% more than $2.1 million. About the same? Wha??

You can do a lot with $1.4 million. You can fit the first year of a 2nd round pick's contract in that amount of space.[/QUOTE]

I was only looking at post 39 where you say it costs 2.1 to cut or 2.1 to sign. There is a difference and that savings is nice and maybe if the redskins ever hold onto a 2nd round pick that $ will come in handy.

Re: Brunell and Redskins Reportedly Close to Restructured Deal
 

[quote=Mattyk72;280915]Let's also consider it adds one less need to our offseason by keeping Brunell. If we cut him we'd have to sift through the scrap heap of NFL backups, bring him in and get him up to speed in this offsense that by Collins' account takes a year to learn.[/quote]

So are we going to keep Brunell and Collins until they are 50 just becasue they know the offense? Eventually we are going to have to bring in someone else to back-up JC.

Re: Brunell and Redskins Reportedly Close to Restructured Deal
 

Matty, Schneed (or anyone else) Can one of you please write the inevitable "The only reason Brunell is still on the team and will probably be the starting QB by week 3 is because he and Gibbs believe in God and go to church together"

We all know someone will create that retarded "religion" argument. Could we just get it out of the way? Thanks

Re: Brunell and Redskins Reportedly Close to Restructured Deal
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;280907]For once? ;) At least you can admit it, there are plenty of people here that don't.

Gibbs let him work through his struggles last year so I don't see why he would have a quick hook with him this year. Besides, I think Campbell is going to be so improved that Gibbs won't even have to think twice about it.

Brunell is 37 and coming off shoulder surgery... I think even Gibbs can see the writing on the wall. Gibbs wants to win at any cost, and I think it's clear Campbell gives the team the best shot at winning. Campbell is in year 3 and he's a guy that Gibbs gave up alot to get... it's time to see if this investment is going to pay off.[/QUOTE]

I think Gibbs let him work because the season was basically toast anyway. 2007 is a new year and I think Gibbs is kind of desperate so he wont let the season get away from him like he did last year and any player not getting it done will be benched.

I think at the end of this season we will now for sure if the Skins are sold on JC as their starter.

Re: Brunell and Redskins Reportedly Close to Restructured Deal
 

[quote=TAFKAS;280920]Matty, Schneed (or anyone else) Can one of you please write the inevitable "The only reason Brunell is still on the team and will probably be the starting QB by week 3 is because he and Gibbs believe in God and go to church together"

We all know someone will create that retarded "religion" argument. Could we just get it out of the way? Thanks[/quote]

I guess this would be appropriate "THANK GOD"

Re: Brunell and Redskins Reportedly Close to Restructured Deal
 

[quote=skinsfan69;280919]So are we going to keep Brunell and Collins until they are 50 just becasue they know the offense? Eventually we are going to have to bring in someone else to back-up JC.[/quote]

Eventually... of course, that goes without saying. But for now I don't see why it would make any sense, both from a cap perspective and from a common sense standpoint.

Re: Brunell and Redskins Reportedly Close to Restructured Deal
 

[quote=irish;280922]I think Gibbs let him work because the season was basically toast anyway.[/quote]

Not to keep harping on this but that's what most of us said last year when the change was made but you insisted Gibbs would bring MB back in. Going back to MB didn't make any sense last year and I don't see where anything has changed regarding that.

We'll see.

Re: Brunell and Redskins Reportedly Close to Restructured Deal
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;280926]Not to keep harping on this but that's what most of us said last year when the change was made but you insisted Gibbs would bring MB back in. Going back to MB didn't make any sense last year and I don't see where anything has changed regarding that.

We'll see.[/QUOTE]

I really did think MB would come back because of how much Gibbs loves him but you are correct that it would not have made any sense (but when has that stopped this team?). I agree that it still does not make sense to go back but I still believe that if JC struggles a little and we hit Oct and it looks like the season is slipping away (like last year) Gibbs will make the switch in a last ditch attempt to salvage the season.

I hope I'm wrong and like you said, we'll see.

Re: Brunell and Redskins Reportedly Close to Restructured Deal
 

[quote=irish;280918]I was only looking at post 39 where you say it costs 2.1 to cut or 2.1 to sign. There is a difference and that savings is nice and maybe if the redskins ever hold onto a 2nd round pick that $ will come in handy.[/quote]

You misread post 39. I said:

[QUOTE]"Mark, accept a pay reduction so we can save [B]more than[/B] $2.1 million. Or we're going to cut you and save the $2.1 million. Those are your options."[/QUOTE]

Doesn't have to be a 2nd round pick. It can be two guys playing for the vet minimum. It can go towards finding enough space for Nate Clements and London Fletcher. Etcetera.

This is how the 'Skins always do it. Trim $1.4 million here, trim $1 million there. Cut bums like John Hall and Troy Vincent, trim a few million there. It's how they always avoid the "cap hell."

Re: Brunell and Redskins Reportedly Close to Restructured Deal
 

[quote=irish;280927]I really did think MB would come back because of how much Gibbs loves him but you are correct that it would not have made any sense (but when has that stopped this team?). I agree that it still does not make sense to go back but I still believe that if JC struggles a little and we hit Oct and it looks like the season is slipping away (like last year) Gibbs will make the switch in a last ditch attempt to salvage the season.

I hope I'm wrong and like you said, we'll see.[/quote]

If we struggle, I highly doubt the QB position is going to be the reason. I saw enough of Campbell to feel like he can do enough to get a team to the playoffs. My questions are all on the defense: can we stop the run, can we prevent the deep pass, and can we generate a turnover or two.

Re: Brunell and Redskins Reportedly Close to Restructured Deal
 

[quote=Schneed10;280930]If we struggle, I highly doubt the QB position is going to be the reason. I saw enough of Campbell to feel like he can do enough to get a team to the playoffs. My questions are all on the defense: can we stop the run, can we prevent the deep pass, and can we generate a turnover or two.[/quote]

I definitely agree.

Just like Saunders recently said, what JC did last year with very limited experience in this offense and virtually no time working with the first team was amazing.

I'm really expecting big things from JC and this offense, I'm really not worried about the O. The D is the big question mark headed into next season.

Re: Brunell and Redskins Reportedly Close to Restructured Deal
 

Wow. The hate for MB always amazes me. Yes, he had/has his physical limitations and some of the blame for a losing season has to fall on him. But, lordy, some of you act like he is evil incarnate.

Oh wait, maybe YOU are evil incarnate and you cannot help but hate on a god-fearing noodle armed QB.

Re: Brunell and Redskins Reportedly Close to Restructured Deal
 

[quote=Schneed10;280898]Let's shed a little salary cap light on the subject. Cutting Brunell would save the team $2.1 million in 2007.

But if he drops his base salary down from $5 million to the vet minimum, he saves us $4 million. Then of course you have to add in any incremental signing bonus he's getting as part of this restructure. If it's a $2 million bonus, then we can spread that over the 4 years he's still with us, adding $500 K to his cap figure. All in all, this method would create $3.5 million in cap space, that's quite a bit more than the $2.1 we'd get from axing him.

Doesn't make sense to cut the guy. Not when he's still more than capable of playing a backup role very well. All you can ask of a backup QB is to come in when you need him and not lose games. You can have a McNabb and Garcia situation for half a year, but if your backup is that good, you either can't afford him or he finds a starting job. Brunell is a solid backup, and this has all the makings of the smartest move possible given the circumstances.[/quote]

Good analysis & great point. I hadn't figured in the cost of cutting him.
I think you have to add his shoulder surgery to the equation though. Gibbs must believe that he'll recover fully or near it. My concern w/keeping a roster space for him is that he realistically may be only a 3rd string qb when the season starts due to his recovery.
I know the team knows better than us, but it also seems that they've let him play through some pain when it may have been to the detriment of the team.
Just hope JC doesn't get hurt!

Re: Brunell and Redskins Reportedly Close to Restructured Deal
 

[quote=freddyg12;280934]Good analysis & great point. I hadn't figured in the cost of cutting him.
I think you have to add his shoulder surgery to the equation though. Gibbs must believe that he'll recover fully or near it. My concern w/keeping a roster space for him is that he realistically may be only a 3rd string qb when the season starts due to his recovery.
I know the team knows better than us, but it also seems that they've let him play through some pain when it may have been to the detriment of the team.
Just hope JC doesn't get hurt![/quote]

I didn't get the sense that the injury was so major that he would have any problem coming back.

Carson Palmer came back from a destroyed knee in 8 months. Now Brunell's no spring chicken like Palmer, but arthroscopic shoulder surgery? This isn't a major deal. I think he'll be OK.

Re: Brunell and Redskins Reportedly Close to Restructured Deal
 

[quote=skinsfan69;280877]In fairness to the team, and the offense, I hope Gibbs let's Collins compete for the #2. Brunell should not have the back-up job handed to him just becase he has game experience.[/quote]

collins is probably going to opt out of his deal and leave.

Re: Brunell and Redskins Reportedly Close to Restructured Deal
 

[quote=Schneed10;280936]I didn't get the sense that the injury was so major that he would have any problem coming back.

Carson Palmer came back from a destroyed knee in 8 months. Now Brunell's no spring chicken like Palmer, but arthroscopic shoulder surgery? This isn't a major deal. I think he'll be OK.[/quote]

He'll probably be limited in camps but as the starter JC would get the majority of the reps anyway. Besides, rest is probably the best thing for him.

Re: Brunell and Redskins Reportedly Close to Restructured Deal
 

[QUOTE=TAFKAS;280864]I was really hoping he'd go (or be let go) so that he wouldn't have to continue to put up with mindless crap from the fans. He could literally pay Dockery's, Springs, Clements', and Fletcher's contracts, discover a cure for cancer, bring peace to the Middle East, and joy to Mudville...and people would [I]still[/I] complain about him.[/QUOTE]

Or, he could take a team with a great wideout, a solid TE, Clinton Portis and a top ten offensive line, complete 11-25 passes, 65 yards, 0 tds, 0 ints, throw the ball out of bounds on third down and lose 19-3 -- and some people will wonder why fans are so hard on him; so much so in fact, that they're worried his feelings might be hurt and maybe he should just leave town.

Re: Brunell and Redskins Reportedly Close to Restructured Deal
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10;280936]I didn't get the sense that the injury was so major that he would have any problem coming back.

Carson Palmer came back from a destroyed knee in 8 months. Now Brunell's no spring chicken like Palmer, but arthroscopic shoulder surgery? This isn't a major deal. I think he'll be OK.[/QUOTE]

You may want to talk to somebody that has had arthroscopic shoulder surgery about it not being a big deal. I know 2 guys in their 30s that have had it and said it is the most painful thing they have ever experienced. In fact one of the guys said if he had to have it again he'd just tell the Dr to chop his arm off (LOL) because the apain was unbelievable. No matter how you sit stand or lay it hurts.

Re: Brunell and Redskins Reportedly Close to Restructured Deal
 

[quote=Beemnseven;280948]Or, he could take a team with a great wideout, a solid TE, Clinton Portis and a top ten offensive line, complete 11-25 passes, 65 yards, 0 tds, 0 ints, throw the ball out of bounds on third down and lose 19-3 -- and some people will wonder why fans are so hard on him; so much so in fact, that they're worried his feelings might be hurt and maybe he should just leave town.[/quote]

Well, as we've discussed many times over you can't pin everything on him, I think that's the basic point here. The year before he did help guide the team to the playoffs. Last year was a disaster across the board.

Re: Brunell and Redskins Reportedly Close to Restructured Deal
 

[quote=irish;280959]You may want to talk to somebody that has had arthroscopic shoulder surgery about it not being a big deal. I know 2 guys in their 30s that have had it and said it is the most painful thing they have ever experienced. In fact one of the guys said if he had to have it again he'd just tell the Dr to chop his arm off (LOL) because the apain was unbelievable. No matter how you sit stand or lay it hurts.[/quote]

Of course there's pain associated with any type of surgery, but arthroscopic surgery is pretty tame compared to a major reconstruction.

Re: Brunell and Redskins Reportedly Close to Restructured Deal
 

Brunell may only be 36, but has been beaten up like he was 10 years older... I like the idea of having a former starting QB as a back up and mentor to Campbell... but come on... we need someone we can count on. Remember, we started Campbell because Brunell could not get it done.

Re: Brunell and Redskins Reportedly Close to Restructured Deal
 

[quote=irish;280959]You may want to talk to somebody that has had arthroscopic shoulder surgery about it not being a big deal. I know 2 guys in their 30s that have had it and said it is the most painful thing they have ever experienced. In fact one of the guys said if he had to have it again he'd just tell the Dr to chop his arm off (LOL) because the apain was unbelievable. No matter how you sit stand or lay it hurts.[/quote]

I don't care what the pain is like. The pain is temporary. Every injured player deals with post-op pain.

I care about the structure of the joint. To my knowledge, it was a partially torn labrum. Pitchers come back from that in 8 months all the time, I see no reason Brunell can't.

It's not like his arm fell off or his knee has been reconstructed.

Re: Brunell and Redskins Reportedly Close to Restructured Deal
 

[QUOTE=irish;280959]You may want to talk to somebody that has had arthroscopic shoulder surgery about it not being a big deal. I know 2 guys in their 30s that have had it and said it is the most painful thing they have ever experienced. In fact one of the guys said if he had to have it again he'd just tell the Dr to chop his arm off (LOL) because the apain was unbelievable. No matter how you sit stand or lay it hurts.[/QUOTE]

Speaking from personal experience, shoulder pain is nothing to scoff at. I have a partially torn rotator cuff and need to have surgery. Mine is so small that you can barely see it on an MRI and I will have a 6 month rehab. It hurts so much sometimes that I can't raise my arm to shoulder level without it almost bringing me to tears. I've had knee injuries, ankle injuries, pulled muscles and broken bones (no, I'm not Taylor Jacobs) and nothing compares to the shoulder pain.

Re: Brunell and Redskins Reportedly Close to Restructured Deal
 

I'm so happy we are keeping MB!!! :)

Re: Brunell and Redskins Reportedly Close to Restructured Deal
 

[quote=hesscl34;280970]I'm so happy we are keeping MB!!! :)[/quote]

THAT'S humor!

Re: Brunell and Redskins Reportedly Close to Restructured Deal
 

Good grief! People are so worried that Brunell is going to step out on the field. Lord forbid he does and leads this team to the Super Bowl. Maybe saying the name "Mark Brunell" should be added to the list of the "PC" movement instead of Redskin. Just sounds like to me that a few get offended whenever he does something to help the team. The guy is a team player and has contributed alot of positives to this thing. For ever negative he has contributed can be said for all of our other players this past year as well. The fact of the matter is, I trust Mark Brunell a whole heck of a lot more as our #2 guy than somebody like Todd Collins who is up there in age as well and has hardly thrown a ball in the NFL that mattered to anybody.

Re: Brunell and Redskins Reportedly Close to Restructured Deal
 

[quote=Beemnseven;280948]Or, he could take a team with a great wideout, a solid TE, Clinton Portis and a top ten offensive line, complete 11-25 passes, 65 yards, 0 tds, 0 ints, throw the ball out of bounds on third down and lose 19-3 -- and some people will wonder why fans are so hard on him; so much so in fact, that they're worried his feelings might be hurt and maybe he should just leave town.[/quote]I'm pretty sure this nor a situation similar to this ever happened.

Re: Brunell and Redskins Reportedly Close to Restructured Deal
 

[quote=That Guy;280938]collins is probably going to opt out of his deal and leave.[/quote]

Why? Where in the hell is he going to go? His only option would probably be back to KC.

Re: Brunell and Redskins Reportedly Close to Restructured Deal
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;280932]Wow. The hate for MB always amazes me. Yes, he had/has his physical limitations and some of the blame for a losing season has to fall on him. But, lordy, some of you act like he is evil incarnate.

Oh wait, maybe YOU are evil incarnate and you cannot help but hate on a god-fearing noodle armed QB.[/quote]

LOL! Noodle armed QB? Looks like your doing some hating too. In a good way of course.

Re: Brunell and Redskins Reportedly Close to Restructured Deal
 

This makes sense both financially and for the football side, as Schneed pointed out. Brunell could be very effective as a spot reliever. Without the pressure of being the starter he would be more willing to take chances. It' a whole different psychology.

If this comes off as reported without a big hoo-ha it will be a credit to the leadership of Gibbs and hopefully indicative of a more measured and reasoned approach to personell decisions.

To those who say Brunell is inadequate as a backup, I say "Name me someone else."

Re: Brunell and Redskins Reportedly Close to Restructured Deal
 

[quote=skinsguy;280976]Good grief! People are so worried that Brunell is going to step out on the field. Lord forbid he does and leads this team to the Super Bowl. Maybe saying the name "Mark Brunell" should be added to the list of the "PC" movement instead of Redskin. Just sounds like to me that a few get offended whenever he does something to help the team. The guy is a team player and has contributed alot of positives to this thing. For ever negative he has contributed can be said for all of our other players this past year as well. The fact of the matter is, I trust Mark Brunell a whole heck of a lot more as our #2 guy than somebody like Todd Collins who is up there in age as well and has hardly thrown a ball in the NFL that mattered to anybody.[/quote]

Perhaps "HE who shall not be named"

Re: Brunell and Redskins Reportedly Close to Restructured Deal
 

I would hope they dont make a trade for Bly. that would mean giving up a future pick, or a player that we need. The safest bet is to pick Smoot back up. Word is he is going to get released by next week. My bet is he will willingly sign with Washington since he found the grass wasn't greener on the other side. Plus, he was in GW system and wouldn't have to learn another and fact he was loved in the DC area.

I think that may put a damper on the Clements thing. I dont know that Smoot would sign knowing he is a backup, and if Rogers is benched he will become a problem. Springs will more than likely be let go. I dont see him restructuring. He could be one of those releases that sign back once he see's he isn't worth what he thinks.