Re: Ukraine mega thread
 

[quote=Giantone;1315261]Bounce back to what ? No one is accepting it. Keep pushing your pro russia BS.[/quote]

Did I miss something? Has Chico been posting pro Russian stuff? If he has been backing the Russians this post could be tied to that trend, but this post in isolation isn't pro-Russia, it was just posting factual information.


"Russia's currency, the ruble, has bounced back to where it was before President Vladimir Putin ordered his troops into Ukraine.

Analysts have said it's not a reflection of the strength of the economy, but rather more of the strict controls the government has put on the financial system and tough rules on exporters.

"This is not a free market anymore," Lee Hardman, currency analyst at Japanese bank MUFG, told Insider...."

Re: Ukraine mega thread
 

[quote=nonniey;1315281]Did I miss something? Has Chico been posting pro Russian stuff? If he has been backing the Russians this post could be tied to that trend, but this post in isolation isn't pro-Russia, it was just posting factual information.


"Russia's currency, the ruble, has bounced back to where it was before President Vladimir Putin ordered his troops into Ukraine.

Analysts have said it's not a reflection of the strength of the economy, but rather more of the strict controls the government has put on the financial system and tough rules on exporters.

"This is not a free market anymore," Lee Hardman, currency analyst at Japanese bank MUFG, told Insider...."[/quote]



In understanding the poster and his agenda it brings different meaning to the post's he puts up.

Re: Ukraine mega thread
 

[quote=Giantone;1315290]In understanding the poster and his agenda it brings different meaning to the post's he puts up.[/quote]

[IMG]https://www.kindpng.com/picc/m/296-2965084_transparent-wojak-png-ding-ding-retard-meme-png.png[/IMG]

Re: Ukraine mega thread
 

[quote=Chico23231;1315300][IMG]https://www.kindpng.com/picc/m/296-2965084_transparent-wojak-png-ding-ding-retard-meme-png.png[/IMG][/quote]

The more you post the more you prove my point.

Re: Ukraine mega thread
 

[url]https://www.yahoo.com/news/photojournalist-describes-what-russia-left-behind-in-bucha-its-apocalyptic-090001901.html[/url]

Lots of really graphic photos from Bucha ...

war crimes.

"Never again will the world sit and watch ... "

Re: Ukraine mega thread
 

[quote=SunnySide;1315318][url]https://www.yahoo.com/news/photojournalist-describes-what-russia-left-behind-in-bucha-its-apocalyptic-090001901.html[/url]

Lots of really graphic photos from Bucha ...

war crimes.

"Never again will the world sit and watch ... "[/quote]

Horrible. At a loss for words. Can't believe this is happening in 2022.

Re: Ukraine mega thread
 

I haven't been posting, mainly still done with the bickering here, but I also have to say, I can't believe the world hasn't stepped in militarily to protect Ukraine's sovereignty, or for the humanitarian tragedy that is going on. Mariupol should have been this generation's Berlin Airlift. UN Peacekeepers should have stepped in when Bucha pictures were shown around the world. And when the Russian tanks travel in open columns our drones, that were so effective at destroying Arab terrorists, and our stealth bombers should have been used to destroy those tanks before more civilian destruction happened.

It's a shame, but this era will be remembered as the prelude to WWIII, and future generations will wonder why Russia wasn't stopped at this point.

For the "but russia has nukes" response, There is no realistic way the defense establishment would allow the destruction of Russia for Putin's war. But they won't act until the world stands up and calls Putin out.

Re: Ukraine mega thread
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1315368]I haven't been posting, mainly still done with the bickering here, but I also have to say, I can't believe the world hasn't stepped in militarily to protect Ukraine's sovereignty, or for the humanitarian tragedy that is going on. Mariupol should have been this generation's Berlin Airlift. UN Peacekeepers should have stepped in when Bucha pictures were shown around the world. And when the Russian tanks travel in open columns our drones, that were so effective at destroying Arab terrorists, and our stealth bombers should have been used to destroy those tanks before more civilian destruction happened.

It's a shame, but this era will be remembered as the prelude to WWIII, and future generations will wonder why Russia wasn't stopped at this point.

For the "but russia has nukes" response, There is no realistic way the defense establishment would allow the destruction of Russia for Putin's war. But they won't act until the world stands up and calls Putin out.[/quote]

The fear of a nuclear holocaust and destruction of the World will have that effect.

Re: Ukraine mega thread
 

[quote=Giantone;1315370]The fear of a nuclear holocaust and destruction of the World will have that effect.[/quote]

So you let a country that has clearly gone off the rails destroy and murder thousands or 10's of thousands of innocents. but they touch one inch of nato and all bets are off? There already is a holocaust going on, and the world stands witness to it.

We have invested trillions of dollars in our military over the last 30 years, we have built institutions (norad, Nato, and more) to prevent a successful nuclear attack. But I don't believe it would come to that in the least. Putin has used nuclear blackmail to a tee, but he also is facing more opposition within the military as well, there is no way the Russian military would launch a full nuclear strike if their territory isn't threatened.

We have more than the ability to stop the holocaust without stepping foot on Russian soil, and do it in a quick way. See Kuwait as a clear example of what a world's swift response should have looked like.

Re: Ukraine mega thread
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1315371]So you let a country that has clearly gone off the rails destroy and murder thousands or 10's of thousands of innocents. but they touch one inch of nato and all bets are off? There already is a holocaust going on, and the world stands witness to it.

We have invested trillions of dollars in our military over the last 30 years, we have built institutions (norad, Nato, and more) to prevent a successful nuclear attack. But I don't believe it would come to that in the least. Putin has used nuclear blackmail to a tee, but he also is facing more opposition within the military as well, there is no way the Russian military would launch a full nuclear strike if their territory isn't threatened.

We have more than the ability to stop the holocaust without stepping foot on Russian soil, and do it in a quick way. See Kuwait as a clear example of what a world's swift response should have looked like.[/quote]

If you swing and miss it would be a nuclear war.

To me, not supporting them with the air power agreement of moving planes to them from Poland is a major mistake.

Russia went for the throat and failed. They correctly fell back and will concentrate forces with established supply lines which are protected on the eastern front. They will encircle the very strong defense lines of the Ukraine eastern front. Once that’s done it’s over. Done.

Re: Ukraine mega thread
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1315371]So you let a country that has clearly gone off the rails destroy and murder thousands or 10's of thousands of innocents. but they touch one inch of nato and all bets are off? There already is a holocaust going on, and the world stands witness to it.

We have invested trillions of dollars in our military over the last 30 years, we have built institutions (norad, Nato, and more) to prevent a successful nuclear attack. But I don't believe it would come to that in the least. Putin has used nuclear blackmail to a tee, but he also is facing more opposition within the military as well, there is no way the Russian military would launch a full nuclear strike if their territory isn't threatened.

We have more than the ability to stop the holocaust without stepping foot on Russian soil, and do it in a quick way. See Kuwait as a clear example of what a world's swift response should have looked like.[/quote]

Ukraine don’t have oil. Therefore our inept leadership won’t give a shit. I should be posting in drunk thread. I am four deep into heavy seas double cannon and get hostile when drinking.

Re: Ukraine mega thread
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1315371]So you let a country that has clearly gone off the rails destroy and murder thousands or 10's of thousands of innocents. but they touch one inch of nato and all bets are off? There already is a holocaust going on, and the world stands witness to it.

We have invested trillions of dollars in our military over the last 30 years, we have built institutions (norad, Nato, and more) to prevent a successful nuclear attack. But I don't believe it would come to that in the least. Putin has used nuclear blackmail to a tee, but he also is facing more opposition within the military as well, there is no way the Russian military would launch a full nuclear strike if their territory isn't threatened.

We have more than the ability to stop the holocaust without stepping foot on Russian soil, and do it in a quick way. See Kuwait as a clear example of what a world's swift response should have looked like.[/quote]
Not saying I disagree with you about more help[ but you seem to want to sacrifice millions over this. A mad man has his fingers on the button to end the world, yes caution is advised.

Re: Ukraine mega thread
 

[quote=BaltimoreSkins;1315373]Ukraine don’t have oil. Therefore our inept leadership won’t give a shit. I should be posting in drunk thread. I am four deep into heavy seas double cannon and get hostile when drinking.[/quote]

Either you keep cracking beers or move to liquor. That’s a direct order!

Re: Ukraine mega thread
 

Sticking with beer tonight but kno hangover will be worse

Re: Ukraine mega thread
 

Hard to argue with the Ukranian Defense Minister:

[url]https://thehill.com/policy/international/3461135-ukrainian-defense-minister-says-international-security-organizations-have-failed/[/url]

Re: Ukraine mega thread
 

[quote=Giantone;1315374]Not saying I disagree with you about more help[ but you seem to want to sacrifice millions over this. A mad man has his fingers on the button to end the world, yes caution is advised.[/quote]

There isn't a button that Putin has a finger on. Russia has a defense complex, similar to the US and they are not going to launch nukes over Ukraine any more than the US would. Fact is, Biden was scared and inept early on, and Putin took that weakness for what weakness always is in the geopolitical realm - an opening.

A strong response (my opinion stealth bombers taking out that 40 mile column of tanks) would have blunted Putin's aggression, and as long as we stayed out of attacking Russia proper, the world would have rallied behind US leadership (again, drawing on the Kuwait parallel)

Rule 1 of international order should be - you cannot invade a non-aggressive sovereign country

Re: Ukraine mega thread
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1315380]There isn't a button that Putin has a finger on. Russia has a defense complex, similar to the US and they are not going to launch nukes over Ukraine any more than the US would. Fact is, Biden was scared and inept early on, and Putin took that weakness for what weakness always is in the geopolitical realm - an opening.

A strong response (my opinion stealth bombers taking out that 40 mile column of tanks) would have blunted Putin's aggression, and as long as we stayed out of attacking Russia proper, the world would have rallied behind US leadership (again, drawing on the Kuwait parallel)

Rule 1 of international order should be - you cannot invade a non-aggressive sovereign country[/quote]

I think you’re making the mistake of assuming Putin is a rational actor. He’s sending in conscripts with little logistical support. These aren’t the 2nd Rangers. He’s using his own as cannon fodder.

I’m as morally appalled as you are and I too want to see something done. But as long as Russia is being this ineffective there’s wisdom in letting Ukraine be the ones to give their lives grinding up the Russian war machine while NATO retains a position of strength and poise. Maintaining that readiness with no worse strategic position while Russia weakens itself points to an eye on the long game.

So far we can’t say the decision to supply Ukraine is leading to failure. If this does indeed lead to WW3 we can’t lose it, playing the long game is prudent.

Re: Ukraine mega thread
 

[quote=Schneed10;1315381]I think you’re making the mistake of assuming Putin is a rational actor. He’s sending in conscripts with little logistical support. These aren’t the 2nd Rangers. He’s using his own as cannon fodder.

I’m as morally appalled as you are and I too want to see something done. But as long as Russia is being this ineffective there’s wisdom in letting Ukraine be the ones to give their lives grinding up the Russian war machine while NATO retains a position of strength and poise. Maintaining that readiness with no worse strategic position while Russia weakens itself points to an eye on the long game.

So far we can’t say the decision to supply Ukraine is leading to failure. If this does indeed lead to WW3 we can’t lose it, playing the long game is prudent.[/quote]
I hear what you are saying, and I do agree to the extent that on the ground, Ukraine troops are doing amazing, and may maintain their own. Where my main disagreement is, is particularly the initial 40 mile column of tanks, which we could have helped take out with drones or stealth attacks that minimize the risk of full escalation, and more importantly the siege of Mariupol. My comparison of the Berlin Airlift is where I stand. send in UN planes, with supplies and rescue efforts, and put it on Russia to attack them.

Putin isn't a rational character by western standards, but he most definitely is by RealPolitik standards. He gambled that the nuclear bluff would hold the west at bay while his forces quickly drove in and took Kiev. Had Ukraine's army collapsed in those first 5 days, as Putin's intelligence said it would, they would have successfully taken over Ukraine. Once that intelligence proved false, he has played the cards he was dealt with depleted forces.

I would argue that nothing Putin has done, hasn't been telegraphed as his intentions, and the West's response to Chechnya, Georgia, and Crimea led to his RealPolitik belief that he could act with impunity in Ukraine.

Edit : Defining Rational Actor

What is the rational actor model theory?
The most widely cited foreign policy analysis approach is the rational actor model. This approach assumes that the main actor in foreign policy is a rational individual who can be relied on to make informed, calculated decisions that maximize value and perceived benefits to the state

Western Standard - actions are assumed to follow moral and ethical considerations as well as greater global welfare
(UN - 93 countries supported suspending Russia from the Human Rights council - theoretically supporting a Western Standard of rational actor)

Realpolitik Standard - a system of politics or principles based on practical rather than moral or ideological considerations.
(UN - 82 countries either voted against or abstained in the same vote)

The world doesn't revolve around Western Morality politics, and a good portion of it actually rejects it outright.

Re: Ukraine mega thread
 

Putin has proven he is anything but rational, as much as I respect your opinion many superior Military minds disagree with your theory on whether putin would push the nuclear button and yes we all know it's not one button but as you pointed out the russian Military complex will do what putin says, if he says launch them , they will.

Re: Ukraine mega thread
 

[quote=Giantone;1315387]Putin has proven he is anything but rational, as much as I respect your opinion many superior Military minds disagree with your theory on whether putin would push the nuclear button and yes we all know it's not one button but as you pointed out the russian Military complex will do what putin says, if he says launch them , they will.[/quote]

He has acted incredibly rationally if you ignore western ethics - which Putin openly mocks. His stated objective from early 2000's is to undo the greatest geopolitical tragedy of the 20th century, and restore Russian/Soviet Supremacy. That can be achieved by nuclear bluffs (they are very effective against Western Democracies) and special military operations. He is not crazy, he simply has different ethical standards (in the West's view he has no ethical standards) which allow all force that preserves or rebuilds the Russian greatness. I still believe he will use tactical nukes in western Ukraine at some point to interdict Western supply chains. But using ballistic nukes is a different ballgame, and that [B][U]WOULD[/U][/B] lead to the destruction of Russia. Which is not in his game plan.

Re: Ukraine mega thread
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1315390]He has acted incredibly rationally if you ignore western ethics - which Putin openly mocks. His stated objective from early 2000's is to undo the greatest geopolitical tragedy of the 20th century, and restore Russian/Soviet Supremacy. That can be achieved by nuclear bluffs (they are very effective against Western Democracies) and special military operations. He is not crazy, he simply has different ethical standards (in the West's view he has no ethical standards) which allow all force that preserves or rebuilds the Russian greatness. I still believe he will use tactical nukes in western Ukraine at some point to interdict Western supply chains. But using ballistic nukes is a different ballgame, and that [B][U]WOULD[/U][/B] lead to the destruction of Russia. Which is not in his game plan.[/quote]

You believe putin is rational, you believe he has "tactical nukes" and he is "ethical" in his own special way. You believe he is bluffing using Nukes on the rest of the World but will use them on Ukraine and you still call him "ethical". I'm sorry, I don't understand how anyone with any decency can try to justify what putin has done or is doing.

Re: Ukraine mega thread
 

Ok set the rational actor vs not rational actor thing aside for a second because I don’t think that’s the main point.

I’m not sure what the difference is between the Berlin Airlift and what we’re actually doing in Ukraine. Because the US and other NATO countries are supplying Ukraine and avoiding direct conflict. And in Berlin supplies were flown in to sustain the Western controlled portions of Berlin. How the supplies are arriving there, whether by land sea or air, I don’t see any relevance. And which countries are providing the supplies, also not relevant.

Further I think you continue to focus on the events of the last 50 days rather than thinking ahead to the next 50, or 500, or 5000. The US and NATO must plan for contingencies, up to and including a Russia-China alliance and co-opted military engagement, the nuclear threat, and a determined Putin who may devalue the lives of his own soldiers - he may be willing to accept more losses than most leaders would to accomplish his objective. He draws that determination from a brainwashed public who supports him.

If Russia has exposed a 40 mile column of tanks with inadequate air cover once, do you not believe they’ll do it again? Or even that the US military even needs a door to be that wide open to walk through it? Just a little ajar is all we need to severely handicap their ground force in Ukraine.

So why rush in? You’re saying we’ve lost a chance, I’m saying we need to be ready for a sustained significant war that the western world can’t lose. First things first, shore up defenses in the Balkans, the Baltics, and complete the indoctrination of Sweden and Finland assuming they do indeed intend to join. Form a plan to maintain maritime control of the Adriatic so as to pin Russia’s navy within the Black Sea. Work with Japan Australia South Korea and India to plan for contingencies should China come to Russia’s aid - requiring a naval blockade of the South China Sea. etc

Because the second we do something like strafe 40 miles of Russian tanks with 30mm cannons from a squad of A10 Thunderbolts you have to assume Russia will activate contingency plans of its own and we have to be ready to maintain the upper hand, no matter which actions they take.

So you sustain Ukraine, don’t escalate unless you have to. Keep Russia busy and bogged down there while you spend your time planning 50 ways to kill them on every front.

Re: Ukraine mega thread
 

[quote=Giantone;1315391]You believe putin is rational, you believe he has "tactical nukes" and he is "ethical" in his own special way. You believe he is bluffing using Nukes on the rest of the World but will use them on Ukraine and you still call him "ethical". I'm sorry, I don't understand how anyone with any decency can try to justify what putin has done or is doing.[/quote]

I didn't call him ethical, I said he is a student of RealPolitik which sets aside ethical concerns. I also am not justifying what Putin has done, I am saying the West should have responded even more forcefully against it.

Re: Ukraine mega thread
 

[quote=Schneed10;1315411]Ok set the rational actor vs not rational actor thing aside for a second because I don’t think that’s the main point.

I’m not sure what the difference is between the Berlin Airlift and what we’re actually doing in Ukraine. Because the US and other NATO countries are supplying Ukraine and avoiding direct conflict. And in Berlin supplies were flown in to sustain the Western controlled portions of Berlin. How the supplies are arriving there, whether by land sea or air, I don’t see any relevance. And which countries are providing the supplies, also not relevant.

Further I think you continue to focus on the events of the last 50 days rather than thinking ahead to the next 50, or 500, or 5000. The US and NATO must plan for contingencies, up to and including a Russia-China alliance and co-opted military engagement, the nuclear threat, and a determined Putin who may devalue the lives of his own soldiers - he may be willing to accept more losses than most leaders would to accomplish his objective. He draws that determination from a brainwashed public who supports him.

If Russia has exposed a 40 mile column of tanks with inadequate air cover once, do you not believe they’ll do it again? Or even that the US military even needs a door to be that wide open to walk through it? Just a little ajar is all we need to severely handicap their ground force in Ukraine.

So why rush in? You’re saying we’ve lost a chance, I’m saying we need to be ready for a sustained significant war that the western world can’t lose. First things first, shore up defenses in the Balkans, the Baltics, and complete the indoctrination of Sweden and Finland assuming they do indeed intend to join. Form a plan to maintain maritime control of the Adriatic so as to pin Russia’s navy within the Black Sea. Work with Japan Australia South Korea and India to plan for contingencies should China come to Russia’s aid - requiring a naval blockade of the South China Sea. etc

Because the second we do something like strafe 40 miles of Russian tanks with 30mm cannons from a squad of A10 Thunderbolts you have to assume Russia will activate contingency plans of its own and we have to be ready to maintain the upper hand, no matter which actions they take.

So you sustain Ukraine, don’t escalate unless you have to. Keep Russia busy and bogged down there while you spend your time planning 50 ways to kill them on every front.[/quote]

Overall I hear what you are saying. I hope that the Western world is following these thoughts. I don't think so though. I think we are falling in the same mindset that Neville Chamberlain brought to WW2. Most of the scenarios that we have witnessed up to today follow many parallels of events leading up to WW1 and WW2.

Re: Ukraine mega thread
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1315417]Overall I hear what you are saying. I hope that the Western world is following these thoughts. I don't think so though. I think we are falling in the same mindset that Neville Chamberlain brought to WW2. Most of the scenarios that we have witnessed up to today follow many parallels of events leading up to WW1 and WW2.[/quote]

I don't think so. I think they're all over it. Chairman of the Joint Chiefs Mark Milley today to CNN:

[quote]Top US Gen. Mark Milley told CNN Tuesday that he believes "what's at stake" in this war "is much greater than Ukraine."

"What's at stake is the security, for the security of Europe since the end of World War II. And indeed, you can easily make the case that what's at stake is the global international security order that was put in place in 1945," Milley, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, told CNN's Jim Sciutto. "That international order has lasted 78 years. It's prevented great war. And underlining that entire concept is the idea that large nations will not conduct military aggression against smaller nations, and that is exactly what's happened here, by Russia against a smaller nation."
Milley continued by saying that if Russia gets away with its aggression in Ukraine "cost-free," then "so goes the so-called international order."

"If that happens, then we're heading into an era of seriously increased instability," Milley added.

"So right now ... now is the time and right now is the opportunity here to stop aggression and to restore peace and security to the European continent."[/quote]

Re: Ukraine mega thread
 

CRed I think the US has a red line in mind. They're not going to say what it is. But if and once it looks like Russia has gained the upper hand in Ukraine, the US will be prepared to enter the fray. They can't say that, they can't even hint at it. But I think they're preparing for it, and behind closed doors preparing their allies for it, working to come to a consensus on what that red line is.

Until that red line is crossed, they'll continue supplying Ukraine.

Re: Ukraine mega thread
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1315416]I didn't call him ethical, I said he is a student of RealPolitik which sets aside ethical concerns. I also am not justifying what Putin has done, I am saying the West should have responded even more forcefully against it.[/quote]

I think Europe without a doubt should have done more quicker. Like him or not Biden has handled this well.

Re: Ukraine mega thread
 

[quote=Schneed10;1315451]CRed I think the US has a red line in mind. They're not going to say what it is. But if and once it looks like Russia has gained the upper hand in Ukraine, the US will be prepared to enter the fray. They can't say that, they can't even hint at it. But I think they're preparing for it, and behind closed doors preparing their allies for it, working to come to a consensus on what that red line is.

Until that red line is crossed, they'll continue supplying Ukraine.[/quote]

I think that's a lot of faith in Western Europe and DC. I generally think a red line should be invading a sovereign country without an obvious compelling case. I hesitate writing this because the US has pushed those boundaries - particularly in the middle east. BUT I think that is the standard that should be applied in all cases.

All in all, I hope that the UN/NATO political wings have the will to enforce whatever redline they have agreed on.

Re: Ukraine mega thread
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1315472]I think that's a lot of faith in Western Europe and DC. I generally think a red line should be invading a sovereign country without an obvious compelling case. I hesitate writing this because the US has pushed those boundaries - particularly in the middle east. BUT I think that is the standard that should be applied in all cases.

All in all, I hope that the UN/NATO political wings have the will to enforce whatever redline they have agreed on.[/quote]

I think your view is just a little on the utopian side, perhaps even naive, that's all. I think the US and NATO is morally outraged enough to want to take action, but they're confronted by the reality that they'll have to give tens of thousands of lives to do so. So they're making a pragmatic choice to let Ukraine continue to make the sacrifices, until there's no other choice.

Re: Ukraine mega thread
 

[quote=Schneed10;1315481]I think your view is just a little on the utopian side, perhaps even naive, that's all. I think the US and NATO is morally outraged enough to want to take action, but they're confronted by the reality that they'll have to give tens of thousands of lives to do so. So they're making a pragmatic choice to let Ukraine continue to make the sacrifices, until there's no other choice.[/quote]

I agree with this and IMO it would be "millions" of lives.

Re: Ukraine mega thread
 

[quote=Giantone;1315485]I agree with this and IMO it would be "millions" of lives.[/quote]

Meh. The nuclear threat be like

[IMG]https://c.tenor.com/GvHEPSHFxfcAAAAd/fighting-dogs-dogs.gif[/IMG]

Re: Ukraine mega thread
 

[quote=Schneed10;1315488]Meh. The nuclear threat be like

[IMG]https://c.tenor.com/GvHEPSHFxfcAAAAd/fighting-dogs-dogs.gif[/IMG][/quote]

I think this is also called arguing on the internet vs in person

Re: Ukraine mega thread
 

Since I came on venting about Mariupol, I want to say Kudos to the UN and Red Cross for getting all the women and children out of the steel plant. From what Zelensky said, it sounds like there are also ongoing talks about the remaining Ukranian military in the plant.

Re: Ukraine mega thread
 

Ukraine is slow and steady losing group on the eastern front and doesn’t have the ability to retake land…

While Russia performance hasn’t been great, they aren’t exactly losing.

Re: Ukraine mega thread
 

[quote=Chico23231;1318105]Ukraine is slow and steady losing group on the eastern front and doesn’t have the ability to retake land…

While Russia performance hasn’t been great, they aren’t exactly losing.[/quote]

Russia has lost ground at the north and south of the contested area in order to put massive amount of fire power in small areas. If Ukraine was allowed to attack the attackers supply in Russia, like they should be allowed, then Russia would not be able to sustain the logistical support in the Donbas region. Once Ukraine is actually using Western arms and able to do more than tread water and delay, they will have the ability to go on the offensive in more locations.

Right now Russia's main advantage is that their supply routes are basically on Russian territory.

Neither side is winning right now, both are suffering heavy casualties and Ukraine's land is being systematically destroyed by an ongoing Russian terror campaign.

Re: Ukraine mega thread
 

[quote=Chico23231;1318105]Ukraine is slow and steady losing group on the eastern front and doesn’t have the ability to retake land…

While Russia performance hasn’t been great, they aren’t exactly losing.[/quote]


Ukraine killing Russian troops

Russia killing innocent women and children



chico tell me again who is winning.

Re: Ukraine mega thread
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1318107]Russia has lost ground at the north and south of the contested area in order to put massive amount of fire power in small areas. If Ukraine was allowed to attack the attackers supply in Russia, like they should be allowed, then Russia would not be able to sustain the logistical support in the Donbas region. Once Ukraine is actually using Western arms and able to do more than tread water and delay, they will have the ability to go on the offensive in more locations.

Right now Russia's main advantage is that their supply routes are basically on Russian territory.

Neither side is winning right now, both are suffering heavy casualties and Ukraine's land is being systematically destroyed by an ongoing Russian terror campaign.[/quote]

It’s gonna be a grind. I know Russia pulled out of a bunch of positions north.

my question too is…are we ok with being the main financier of an unwinnable war?

Politically, Biden negotiated truce to end the war would be huge for him. At this point, if Ukraine cannot reclaim land on an east advance…which they haven’t been able to do…Why destroy the country and kill the innocent?

I would tell the Ukraines, you have to meet some threshold goals and give them a reasonable timeline.

Re: Ukraine mega thread
 

[quote=Chico23231;1318109]It’s gonna be a grind. I know Russia pulled out of a bunch of positions north.

my question too is…are we ok with being the main financier of an unwinnable war?

Politically, Biden negotiated truce to end the war would be huge for him. At this point, if Ukraine cannot reclaim land on an east advance…which they haven’t been able to do…Why destroy the country and kill the innocent?

I would tell the Ukraines, you have to meet some threshold goals and give them a reasonable timeline.[/quote]

I think it is in US interests to make sure Russia doesn't win so yes I'd continue to arm the Ukrainians for as long as it takes - that might (and probably will be) years. China is almost certainly looking at this.

BTW technically Russia's invasion is a violation of the UN charter. It is illegal for countries to wage wars of conquest (ie to seize territory to add to their own state) - which is why everyone and their mother went to war with Iraq in 1990-91 and supposedly the international community has an obligation (but not a requirement) to intervene.

Re: Ukraine mega thread
 

[quote=Chico23231;1318109]It’s gonna be a grind. I know Russia pulled out of a bunch of positions north.

my question too is…are we ok with being the main financier of an unwinnable war?

Politically, Biden negotiated truce to end the war would be huge for him. At this point, if Ukraine cannot reclaim land on an east advance…which they haven’t been able to do…Why destroy the country and kill the innocent?

I would tell the Ukraines, you have to meet some threshold goals and give them a reasonable timeline.[/quote]

How can you tell another country to accept the mass murder of their innocents, destruction of their infrastructure, and unprovoked aggression on their sovereign territory???? Would you be ok with surrendering Texas if Mexico was launching 200 missiles a day, killing Americans every day, advancing on our territory through blood and destruction?

Ukraine won't accept that, and they have shown they will fight with everything they have. What we do is irrelevant to their will to reclaim their territory. We can only aid or delay their fight. Personally, as I have said, I would give them the weapons they ask for and more, without restriction and allow them to take their land back. For the record, Russia is the one destroying that country and killing innocents, and it is also doing that regardless of what the rest of the world does.

It is a fallacy to say it is an unwinnable war. It is only unwinnable if you put unreasonable constraints on the Ukrainians. Allow them to attack the supply routes, the command centers, and force the Russians to fall back into their own country.

Re: Ukraine mega thread
 

[quote=nonniey;1318110]I think it is in US interests to make sure Russia doesn't win so yes I'd continue to arm the Ukrainians for as long as it takes - that might (and probably will be) years. China is almost certainly looking at this.

BTW technically Russia's invasion is a violation of the UN charter. It is illegal for countries to wage wars of conquest (ie to seize territory to add to their own state) - [B]which is why everyone and their mother went to war with Iraq in 1990-91 and supposedly the international community has an obligation (but not a requirement) to intervene[/B].[/quote]

This! This is not a Russia / NATO issue, it is a UN and international rule of law issue. The UN should have a role in forcing Russia to accept the international norm, unfortunately it is looking more like the league of nations then a foundation for a world that abides by international law.