Re: Start John Beck Madness Thread
 

[quote=12thMan;843466]I don't think Shanny should yank Rex, I just wanted to get the silly thread going and out of the way.[/quote]

What's your opinion now thread starter? Ironically, the "12" (th) Man on this team is John Beck.

Re: Start John Beck Madness Thread
 

Shanny sounded like he never wants to see Rex again and IDB him

Re: Start John Beck Madness Thread
 

[quote=GTripp0012;848287]If today didn't provide enough evidence that Beck can't make the throws necessary to lead the offense, this is going to be a long season of trying to explain to people that the QB situation sucks.

Look, John Beck lost a QB competition to Rex Grossman five years into his career. Might the Redskins have no choice but to turn to Beck and hope for the best? Perhaps. Does that mean that our offense is so incredibly limited that we have no choice but to play a career backup? That's the obvious read here.

If the offense is so inept that Grossman is going to be put in bad situations where he can turn the ball over all season, then it's not an offense that is going to make Beck a success story. If we're making a quarterback change to limit the damaged caused by the quarterback, then fine, play John Beck.

But then we need to realize that the bar for the offense is being set at "I hope we have fewer turnovers than touchdowns." Such is the only standard in which Beck can achieve success.[/quote]

Ummmm you start Beck because you have the worse QB in the league leading the offense. I really dont think this is really that complicated. A) were not building for the future with Rex b) Rex statiscally has been the worse or near the worse QB in the league. c) What do we have to lose, we are 3-2. We werent lead to that record because of Rex.

Re: Start John Beck Madness Thread
 

Is there even a Q who to start?

Re: Start John Beck Madness Thread
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;848346]Shanny sounded like he never wants to see Rex again and IDB him[/quote]

I know how he feels. He's kicking himself for not going with his gut feeling. I think this is the best scenario for everybody.

Re: Start John Beck Madness Thread
 

I'm in it for Beck.. No matter if we lose every game. I don't wan't to see Grossman ever again.

Re: Start John Beck Madness Thread
 

The QB of your team is a extention of the coach so with that said I think Beck will get his 1st start next week. He gives the offense more mobility and can keep the play alive. Beck also can run for a 1st down when needed something Rex will never do. I have to say Rex is holding this team back from being a true contender this season. It will be up to Beck to take this thing a run with iit, if not he will be a back up QB for the rest of his NFL career.

Re: Start John Beck Madness Thread
 

[quote=skins89moss;848368]The QB of your team is a extention of the coach so with that said I think Beck will get his 1st start next week. He gives the offense more mobility and can keep the play alive. Beck also can run for a 1st down when needed something Rex will never do. I have to say Rex is holding this team back from being a true contender this season. It will be up to Beck to take this thing a run with iit, if not he will be a back up QB for the rest of his NFL career.[/quote]

Unless he plays like Timmy Brady reincarnate for the rest of the season I doubt he's got a bright future here. Lets face it, I think Beck at best could play slightly above average football here, and that's not going to be enough to keep the job when we are entering a draft with a lot of good, long term options at qb. Luck will be off the board but that just means one less qb needy team to compete with us and the other qb needy teams in the draft.

Re: Start John Beck Madness Thread
 

i dont think beck is gonna be any better in terms of end results. i think rex and beck will get us to the same spot, they will just take us on different routes to get there.

honestly i hope they are working on a 3rd option. no trading or anything but bring in some guys and kick the tires. i wouldnt sign garrard or anything either .. a couple of the best cheap available guys .. . but its 6 weeks in and we just had our bye . . . prolly not happenen

Re: Start John Beck Madness Thread
 

One thing I don't like is Grossman had, what I would say... Above average to good protection this year so far. He hasn't been sacked a lot, and he gets the time to throw on most big plays. It just seems that he isn't making those plays.

Now you have Beck coming in who looked 110% more poised today, but will be behind two backups on the O line that basically was keeping Rex's uniform clean all year.

I just can't imagine Rex behind the o line we will have in the next coming games if he couldn't get it done with time... What's it going to turn into when he doesn't have it? He isn't exactly going to run for a first down like Beck did today, or stretch the play for a 50 yard pass down the sideline.

Re: Start John Beck Madness Thread
 

[quote=GTripp0012;848287]If today didn't provide enough evidence that Beck can't make the throws necessary to lead the offense[/quote]It sure didn't for me.
I expect a nervous/amped up back-up in Beck shoes to look shaky early, the dude is basically a rookie albeit a few season removed.
But, you gotta admit he made some nice throws, some clutch throws.
He showed his mobility and he made some plays to avoid sacks.

[quote]..............."I hope we have fewer turnovers than touchdowns." Such is the only standard in which Beck can achieve success.[/quote]I'm note sure how anyone can know Beck's ceiling? He could on be safe game managers don't 'screw it up' type QB or he could be an Andy Dalson/Ryan Fitpatrick.

Re: Start John Beck Madness Thread
 

[quote=30gut;848414]It sure didn't for me.
I expect a nervous/amped up back-up in Beck shoes to look shaky early, the dude is basically a rookie albeit a few season removed.
But, you gotta admit he made some nice throws, some clutch throws.
He showed his mobility and he made some plays to avoid sacks.

I'm note sure how anyone can know Beck's ceiling? He could on be safe game managers don't 'screw it up' type QB or he could be an Andy Dalson/Ryan Fitpatrick.[/quote]
Im sorta with you 30gut...What in the hell have we seen from beck to make this assesment that he's not gonna be better than rex?

Hey History of this team shows we just need a guy that can manage the game and run the playbook there are only 2 QB's in the Hall from this team correct? And Most of us weren't around to see them play (if you are old enough to remember Sammy Baugh I'd love to know your longevity secrets) Beck tossed up a few game equalizers our recievers needed to hold on. If anything I'd say we inserted him a wee bit too late....The test is next week...If Beck comes out and plays like Mr.Brady were gonna haave to eat alot of crow here.

Grossman is done.....if Beck does bad I suppose we'll see Crompton (did he make the roster?)

Re: Start John Beck Madness Thread
 

I'm with you two as well. Nobody knows this guys limits yet

Re: Start John Beck Madness Thread
 

If I'm Shanahan I'm not even hesitating with Beck. I'm playing him next week, against a crappy panthers defense. But of course I have a bad feeling that he'll start Grossman again over him.

Re: Start John Beck Madness Thread
 

[quote=Bucket;848417]I'm with you two as well. Nobody knows this guys limits yet[/quote]

except the 2 teams that cut him and the 3 that didn't want him to start for them.


I think he's different, but I don't think he's necessarily any better. more mobile, less mistake prone, but his accuracy was AWFUL, missing wide open guys by 4 or 5 feet.

If MS wants to start beck that's fine, I don't think anyone could second guess that, I just don't think it's going to matter in the long run. both of these guys are 30 and neither of them is the answer, we've already seen enough to know that.

ponder looked better than either one of these guys today.

Two plusses to playing Beck. 1.) He won't play as bad a Grossman has. That's huge. He's not Tom Brady, hell, he's not Colt McCoy, but he'll manage the game. He may throw a pic first play, but he wont play like he thinks he's a lot more talented than he is like butt hole Rex Grossman. And 2.) and this one is kind of pathetic but, with Becks weak arm, maybe our OC will have less confidence in him and run the ball more. I just dont understand Mike and Kyle's obsession with Rex. He's a mediocre qb at best. Quit treating him like Joe Montana.

Re: Start John Beck Madness Thread
 

[quote=That Guy;848424]except the 2 teams that cut him and the 3 that didn't want him to start for them.


I think he's different, but I don't think he's necessarily any better. more mobile, less mistake prone, but his accuracy was AWFUL, missing wide open guys by 4 or 5 feet.

If MS wants to start beck that's fine, I don't think anyone could second guess that, I just don't think it's going to matter in the long run. both of these guys are 30 and neither of them is the answer, we've already seen enough to know that.

ponder looked better than either one of these guys today.[/quote]

If history says anything then you really can't know till the guy gets' his "chance". A lot of QB's are deemed average and have above average careers. Alex Smith looks like the second coming of Steve Young in San Fran now, when for the past 5 years he's been considered a asset to the team.

You just never know, and the Redskins wont know untill next week and later in the season if Beck can give them some great years here. If he turns out good, I wont be saying "I told you so" because I don't have a clue to how this guy will pan out.

Re: Start John Beck Madness Thread
 

[quote=WilbursHomie;848425]Two plusses to playing Beck. 1.) He won't play as bad a Grossman has. That's huge. He's not Tom Brady, hell, he's not Colt McCoy, but he'll manage the game. He may throw a pic first play, but he wont play like he thinks he's a lot more talented than he is like butt hole Rex Grossman. And 2.) and this one is kind of pathetic but, with Becks weak arm, maybe our OC will have less confidence in him and run the ball more. I just dont understand Mike and Kyle's obsession with Rex. He's a mediocre qb at best. Quit treating him like Joe Montana.[/quote]

I don't agree.. I think Rex's arm is overrated. Beck has the better arm of the two QB's in my opinion and a faster release.

Re: Start John Beck Madness Thread
 

[quote=WilbursHomie;848425]Two plusses to playing Beck. 1.) He won't play as bad a Grossman has. That's huge. He's not Tom Brady, hell, he's not Colt McCoy, but he'll manage the game. He may throw a pic first play, but he wont play like he thinks he's a lot more talented than he is like butt hole Rex Grossman. And 2.) and this one is kind of pathetic but, with Becks weak arm, maybe our OC will have less confidence in him and run the ball more. I just dont understand Mike and Kyle's obsession with Rex. He's a mediocre qb at best. Quit treating him like Joe Montana.[/quote]

Actually Beck is the one with the strong arm so if anything we should see more downfield passes. People just seem to think that Grossman has a strong arm due to the "f**k it I'm going deep" meme. Myself included.

Serves us right though. We finally play the QB that can run the bootleg off play action and the left side of our line, that was key in running the ball so effectively, goes down. Still that mobility of Beck's is going to be a huge asset

Re: Start John Beck Madness Thread
 

[quote=Dirtbag59;848428]Actually Beck is the one with the strong arm so if anything we should see more downfield passes. People just seem to think that Grossman has a strong arm due to the "f**k it I'm going deep" meme. Myself included.

Serves us right though. We finally play the QB that can run the bootleg off play action and the left side of our line, that was key in running the ball so effectively, goes down. Still that mobility of Beck's is going to be a huge asset[/quote]

[I]I[/I] can say that I noticed Rex's weaker arm even in preseason. But I have always been a stickler for trying to be empirical. :D

Re: Start John Beck Madness Thread
 

[quote=Dirtbag59;848428]Actually Beck is the one with the strong arm so if anything we should see more downfield passes. People just seem to think that Grossman has a strong arm due to the "f**k it I'm going deep" meme. Myself included.

Serves us right though. We finally play the QB that can run the bootleg off play action and the left side of our line, that was key in running the ball so effectively, goes down. Still that mobility of Beck's is going to be a huge asset[/quote]

Yep, I said this in another thread Dirtbag. It seemed like as games went on we shy away from the foundation of this offense the more Rex plays in it, but as soon as Beck hit the field we saw that bootleg, and some success coming from it.

Now that Beck is in.. We take a hit from our Oline, so for Beck to succeed now he's going to need to become even more keen.

Re: Start John Beck Madness Thread
 

[quote=Defensewins;847933]We have seen enough of Grossman. THis is not just on bad game. Time to move on. Beck looked better suited to move the sticks. I hope the Shananhan's do not think about going back to Grossman. Enough![/quote]

I agree. A lot of the fans on this site simply don't know football. They casually watch the games, and see that we have a 3-1 record, and don't see anything else. To that type of person, going for it, on 4th and 30, in the redzone, with 3minutes left, when you're only up by 4; is only a bad idea if it doesn't work. You can't appeal to them with logical arguments like "Rex is inaccurate", or "Rex, throughout his entire career, has more turnovers than touchdowns, and he appears to be no different now". Their response will simply be "but we're 3 -1. Suppose Rex would have come out in the second half, and NOT thrown his fourth pick of the game, but instead he stops throwing it all together, and our running game kicks in, and our defense makes some great plays, and we squeak out with a win. Those same idiots would still be saying that we are 4-1, keep him in there.

This is the problem with repeating the talking point that we are x-x, and should therfore, not change from a horrible quarterback to a potentially better QB. The record doesn't mean anything. The Bears won 13 or 14 games with Rex under center. What matters is whether or not you are winning games BECAUSE of your Quarterback play, or whether you are winning games IN SPITE of your Quarterback play. The answer with Grossman was clear 2 weeks ago.

[QUOTE=zeesson;848434]I agree. A lot of the fans on this site simply don't know football.[/QUOTE]

Then why did you join this site?

Re: Start John Beck Madness Thread
 

[quote=zeesson;848434]I agree. A lot of the fans on this site simply don't know football. They casually watch the games, and see that we have a 3-1 record, and don't see anything else. To that type of person, going for it, on 4th and 30, in the redzone, with 3minutes left, when you're only up by 4; is only a bad idea if it doesn't work. You can't appeal to them with logical arguments like "Rex is inaccurate", or "Rex, throughout his entire career, has more turnovers than touchdowns, and he appears to be no different now". Their response will simply be "but we're 3 -1. Suppose Rex would have come out in the second half, and NOT thrown his fourth pick of the game, but instead he stops throwing it all together, and our running game kicks in, and our defense makes some great plays, and we squeak out with a win. Those same idiots would still be saying that we are 4-1, keep him in there.

This is the problem with repeating the talking point that we are x-x, and should therfore, not change from a horrible quarterback to a potentially better QB. The record doesn't mean anything. The Bears won 13 or 14 games with Rex under center. What matters is whether or not you are winning games BECAUSE of your Quarterback play, or whether you are winning games IN SPITE of your Quarterback play. The answer with Grossman was clear 2 weeks ago.[/quote]

:doh:

Re: Start John Beck Madness Thread
 

[quote=SmootSmack;848435]Then why did you join this site?[/quote]

I joined because of the rest of the people on the site. The one's that DO know football, and do have realistic expectations, and well structured arguments with premises, and conclusions, and supporting evidence, and such. Because in the actual guidelines that I was required to agree to when I signed up, I was told that logical and reasonable arguments would be expected of me. Here is the quote from the FORUM RULES:

"We pride ourselves in having a knowledgeable and informed member base at this site. We want to stress that everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but if you want to be taken seriously you must back up your opinions with some original thought, facts/stats, etc. Think before you post, take pride in your post. If the moderators find that you aren't adding much value to the forums with your postings, your thread may be deleted or closed, and you may be subject to a permanent removal from the forums at our discretion"

My previous post was just a round-a-bout way of saying, DON'T feed the TROLLS!... or the idiots.

EXAMPLE: "We are 3-1" is not a well structured argument for why Rex Grossman should've remained the starter after last week. A better argument, and one I've seen here, would be:

"We are 3-1, and Rex Grossman is the primary reason, here is my statistical evidence"

Of course this argument would be uncogent, because no such evidence exists. Or more accurately, the evidence to the contrary is staggering.
I respect the site, and the rules, and also people that hold a view opposed to my own; but I don't respect fools, with no logical process of thier own, armed with talking points, and zero evidence to back it up. They have a right to spew thier nonsense, and I have a right, no, an obligation to point it out... when I have the time, and the energy.

Re: Start John Beck Madness Thread
 

You read the forum rules! You're a rare breed. Kudos. I'm not sure anyone has said Rex is the reason we are 3-1. But I would say that I am one of those who has said benching Rex when we're 3-1 for an unproven Beck when evidence shows we can't put ALL out blame on Rex seems like a potentially risky proposition. I'm rooting for Beck if he's playing. But just because I'm not 100% comfortable making the switch to him doesn't mean I don't know football.

Re: Start John Beck Madness Thread
 

[quote=SmootSmack;848447]You read the forum rules! You're a rare breed. Kudos. I'm not sure anyone has said Rex is the reason we are 3-1. But I would say that I am one of those who has said benching Rex when we're 3-1 for an unproven Beck when evidence shows we can't put ALL out blame on Rex seems like a potentially risky proposition. I'm rooting for Beck if he's playing. But just because I'm not 100% comfortable making the switch to him doesn't mean I don't know football.[/quote]

Oh no, I didn't mean to imply that anyone who thought that way were idiots, just the ones who only had that to say. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Re: Start John Beck Madness Thread
 

[quote=Bucket;848427]I don't agree.. I think Rex's arm is overrated. Beck has the better arm of the two QB's in my opinion and a faster release.[/quote]

REx's arm isnt his problem, he's too short. IMO he really struggles to see over the line and down the field. I think his lack of vision is what causes most of his INTs.

I dont have a problem with them swapping in Beck (if I was HC I wouldnt do it just yet) but I dont expect the QB production to change much for the better or worse with Beck.

Re: Start John Beck Madness Thread
 

I think at this point we all know Rex is not the answer so lets move on. Beck may or may not take us to the playoffs but he may not hinder the development of the team as a whole. Rex was setting the "same ol Redskins" mentality IMO. In both players and fans.

The players believed in the team this year, some of them actually made bold predictions to the point of a possible SB run. If Beck can at the least just play solid, he may give us that spark back and allow for further development of the players around him.

Beck should have been given the entire 2nd half of the Eagles game. I think he made the most of the little time had.

There is something about Beck I believe in...

Re: Start John Beck Madness Thread
 

Beck faces a bad panthers and bills Defense the next 2 weeks let's see if he can get us going

Re: Start John Beck Madness Thread
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;848487][B]Beck[/B] faces a bad panthers and bills Defense the next 2 weeks let's see if he can get us going[/quote]

Step 1. Lets hope it's Beck and not Grossman... :)

Re: Start John Beck Madness Thread
 

[quote=44ever;848496]Step 1. Lets hope it's Beck and not Grossman... :)[/quote]

Yes I have an odd feeling that Shanny is going to come out in defense of Rex and name him the starter for this week. I think most of us will shake our heads at the move but we have to believe that Shanny knows more than we do about the QBs, right?

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[quote=44ever;848496]Step 1. Lets hope it's Beck and not Grossman... :)[/quote]

It's gotta be Beck.

The Rexy reclamation project didn't work, now they have 2nd chance to bring a QB back from the ashes.

Re: Start John Beck Madness Thread
 

I wasn't a fan of replacing Rex a week ago, but what a difference a week makes. I don't think you can put Rex back out there after that performance yesterday, and given the fact that Beck came in and provided a slight spark and gave the team a chance. Beck's overall performance was a little shaky too, but with a full week's reps with the first team and executing the game plan in practice I think he has to produce better results (at least not worse - I hope) than we have received from Rexy.

Of course I don't think you can just keep flip-flopping your QBs so I would expect this team to live or die with Beck now...unless he gets injured.

Re: Start John Beck Madness Thread
 

[quote=Mattyk;848502]It's gotta be Beck.

The Rexy reclamation project didn't work, now [B]they have 2nd chance to bring a QB back from the ashes.[/B][/quote]

That would make a sweet story.

Re: Start John Beck Madness Thread
 

Beck can do more with his feet and with two starting Olinemen down I think that is going to be key in the next few weeks.

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If Beck does anything, the fact we got him for Doug Dutch will make it one of the best trades ever

Re: Start John Beck Madness Thread
 

I was pushing for Beck in the offseason b/c I felt like we knew Grossman's limitations and that we had a large enough sample size that we knew he was going to cost us some games. Many people made the same argument.

Many people pushed for Grossman b/c they felt Beck has had ample opportunity to show he could start but he failed to take the job in his prior stops or even show enough to rate as a good solid number 2 guy and that, based on his inability, he simple could not succeed as a QB.

My fear is that both arguments were 100% right. We've already seen that the Rex dissenters were pretty damn close to right on.

Re: Start John Beck Madness Thread
 

[url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/football-insider/post/shanahan-mum-on-whether-redskins-will-switch-to-john-beck-after-rex-grossmans-poor-showing/2011/10/16/gIQAcnCYpL_blog.html]Shanahan mum on whether Redskins will switch to John Beck after Rex Grossman's poor showing - The Insider - The Washington Post[/url]

Washington Redskins Coach Mike Shanahan declined to say whether the switch to John Beck is permanent or was just for the final quarter of the 20-13 loss to the Eagles. Instead the coach said that the decision wouldn’t be made until Wednesday.

“I would never announce that right after a game,” Shanahan said. “I would announce that later on in the week. We’ll make a decision after looking at the film.”

Re: Start John Beck Madness Thread
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;848516]I was pushing for Beck in the offseason b/c I felt like we knew Grossman's limitations and that we had a large enough sample size that we knew he was going to cost us some games. Many people made the same argument.

Many people pushed for Grossman b/c they felt Beck has had ample opportunity to show he could start but he failed to take the job in his prior stops or even show enough to rate as a good solid number 2 guy and that, based on his inability, he simple could not succeed as a QB.

My fear is that both arguments were 100% right. We've already seen that the Rex dissenters were pretty damn close to right on.[/quote]

You can't argue that both are bad. It's one or the other! You're an idiot. :) :cheeky-sm