Re: Tom "Iceman" Brady
 

People want it both ways when they bring up the Peyton vs. Brady argument. On one hand they say, Brady is on a better team with a better coach and his wins and losses are more a bye product of his supporting cast than his actual physical prowess and football leadership and skills. Okay, fine.

But then on the other hand, they point to Peyton's individual stats, totally leave out his supporting cast for the past several years, which by the way is better than Brady's, and the fact that he too has a brialliant head coach in his own right.

The one thing that validates Manning as a great quarterback is the one thing that has eluded him. And it's that one thing that Tom Brady just happens to have three times over.

Re: Tom "Iceman" Brady
 

I watched Jason Taylor on ESPN last week talk about Tom Brady to no end. He felt very strongly, in fact, that Tom Brady is the best quarterback in the NFL today. Okay, so here's the defensive MVP of the league this year, he has no vested interest in being biased one way or another, and he plays them both twice a year.

He pointed out that the thing that makes Brady so special is that he has, what I thought he said was "Phone booth [I]quicks[/I]" In other words, Brady can move around in very tight and limited spaces with defenders all around him and still deliver accurate throws. He said almost to a quarterback in the NFL, once they feel pressure they immediately adjust their throw. He said Brady has to actually get 'hit' in order to change his delivery, he's oblvious to just pressure.

Re: Tom "Iceman" Brady
 

[quote=wolfeskins;269979]a lot of people choose to dislike tom brady and the pats for the simple fact that they're winners. fact is the pats are a very good team and tom brady is argueably the best qb in the league today. he could go down as one of the best qbs to ever play in the nfl and like someone said earlier, if he retired after this season he would be a first ballot hall of famer.[/quote]

I dislike them because I lived in Boston for 4 years (way before the Pats were good). Massholes suck.

Re: Tom "Iceman" Brady
 

[quote=Defensewins;270200]No I think it would help Monk. It was much tougher to be a WR in the NFL in the 80's and early 90's than it is today. in the mid to late 90's the NFL changed the rules to help offense pass the ball more, so now the league has turned into amore of a passing league.
Now with these lame roughing the passer rules it really is giving them an advantage.[/quote]

So should the receivers who will inevitably put up two-thousand yard seasons have a * put next to their accomplishment because of the addition of the illegal contact rule?

Re: Tom "Iceman" Brady
 

[quote=Mattyk72;270087]The Patriots really amaze me, they just find ways to win while Marty and co. seem to find ways to lose.[/quote]


Man isnt that the truth! I mean seriously, the Marty ballers are equally unlucky as the pats are lucky.

Re: Tom "Iceman" Brady
 

[quote=Hail2theskins;269951]Tom brady is very good, but not the sickest QB ive ever seen play, not by a longshot. Peyton Manning for one is a better quarterback than brady and a couple others i think better than brady just in the past decade, elway, marino, farve in his prime to name a few. Hats off to the pats, but they win because of superrior coaching than anything else.[/quote]

what makes Peyton better? He has never won anything in the NFL, the point of a QB is to be a leader and get your team to the superbowl, how many rings does Peyton have? Lets not forget who peyton has played with: Edgerin James,Marvin Harrison,Reggie Wayne,Dallas Clark,Marcus Pollard and many many others over the past five or so years, still no superbowl win. Now on the other hand, lets see who Tom Brady has had during his superbowl wins:Troy Brown,David Patten,Deion Branch,Antowain Smith, Corey Dillon, no where near the talent that has surrounded Peyton and hes still won 3 superbowls and is 12-1 in the playoffs, thats one hell of a Qb, one hell of a leader, and one hell of a champion.

Re: Tom "Iceman" Brady
 

[quote=GiantsSuck703;270244]what makes Peyton better? He has never won anything in the NFL, the point of a QB is to be a leader and get your team to the superbowl, how many rings does Peyton have? Lets not forget who peyton has played with: Edgerin James,Marvin Harrison,Reggie Wayne,Dallas Clark,Marcus Pollard and many many others over the past five or so years, still no superbowl win. Now on the other hand, lets see who Tom Brady has had during his superbowl wins:Troy Brown,David Patten,Deion Branch,Antowain Smith, Corey Dillon, no where near the talent that has surrounded Peyton and hes still won 3 superbowls and is 12-1 in the playoffs, thats one hell of a Qb, one hell of a leader, and one hell of a champion.[/quote]

I ask you to read the progession of the posts rather than read my opener and jump to page 11...

Re: Tom "Iceman" Brady
 

[quote=Hail2theskins;270253]I ask you to read the progession of the posts rather than read my opener and jump to page 11...[/quote]

why? have you all of a sudden changed your tone? I wonder why

Re: Tom "Iceman" Brady
 

[quote=GiantsSuck703;270244]what makes Peyton better? He has never won anything in the NFL, the point of a QB is to be a leader and get your team to the superbowl, how many rings does Peyton have? Lets not forget who peyton has played with: Edgerin James,Marvin Harrison,Reggie Wayne,Dallas Clark,Marcus Pollard and many many others over the past five or so years, still no superbowl win. Now on the other hand, lets see who Tom Brady has had during his superbowl wins:Troy Brown,David Patten,Deion Branch,Antowain Smith, Corey Dillon, no where near the talent that has surrounded Peyton and hes still won 3 superbowls and is 12-1 in the playoffs, thats one hell of a Qb, one hell of a leader, and one hell of a champion.[/quote]You conviently ignore defense, the main reason that teams win and lose in the playoffs, and a part of the game that the QB has no control over, while citing offensive skill players, people who are often made by their QB. You then cite wins as your arguement while ignoring both defense AND special teams. Shoddy at best.

Re: Tom "Iceman" Brady
 

[quote=GTripp0012;270268]You conviently ignore defense, the main reason that teams win and lose in the playoffs, and a part of the game that the QB has no control over, while citing offensive skill players, people who are often made by their QB. You then cite wins as your arguement while ignoring both defense AND special teams. Shoddy at best.[/quote]

Are you going to honestly say you haven't done the SAME THING with Manning? I've read all 11 pages and all I have really seen from you is the same thing:

1. "If Manning wins it's because of his talent, just look at his numbers"
2. "If Brady wins it's because of his team, just look at his defense"

Not to mention that you have this theory that playoff preasure doesn't exist. You don't really believe that do you? Yes, it's the same players that suit up every other Sunday, but you have to admit that when Manning stops and thinks, "Hey, wait a minute. I'm not gaurenteed to play next week," he gets a little nervous. They both do, of course. But Brady doesn't show it in his play, Manning does. You can bring up the poor play of Brady yesterday if you want but look how Manning played in Baltimore, much worse. The fact is that Brady (at least more often than not) handles the playoff pressure exponentially better than Manning.

Even though I know it's been said several times before, numbers and stats don't mean anything in the end. Marino would have given up 16 wins for one super bowl. Even though Manning may have fantastic regular season games, he chokes when it counts, end of story.

Re: Tom "Iceman" Brady
 

So is every player who has been on the team and played significant time the best at his position? It seems some want to give Brady more credit for wins than Peyton. Plain and simple Brady is on a better team. I honestly think based on watching these two that Peyton is the better QB and Brady while very good has the better team. I give him credit for the SB wins but not ALL the credit.

Re: Tom "Iceman" Brady
 

[QUOTE=12thMan;270204]I watched Jason Taylor on ESPN last week talk about Tom Brady to no end. He felt very strongly, in fact, that Tom Brady is the best quarterback in the NFL today. Okay, so here's the defensive MVP of the league this year, he has no vested interest in being biased one way or another, and he plays them both twice a year.

He pointed out that the thing that makes Brady so special is that he has, what I thought he said was "Phone booth [I]quicks[/I]" In other words, Brady can move around in very tight and limited spaces with defenders all around him and still deliver accurate throws. He said almost to a quarterback in the NFL, once they feel pressure they immediately adjust their throw. He said Brady has to actually get 'hit' in order to change his delivery, he's oblvious to just pressure.[/QUOTE]

I think that is probably where Brady is better than Manning: pocket presence (and poise in general). IMO, there is nothing more valuable in a QB -- just as long as he can throw the ball (which both Brady and Manning can do very well).

Re: Tom "Iceman" Brady
 

[quote=FRPLG;270277]So is every player who has been on the team and played significant time the best at his position? It seems some want to give Brady more credit for wins than Peyton. Plain and simple Brady is on a better team. I honestly think based on watching these two that Peyton is the better QB and Brady while very good has the better team. I give him credit for the SB wins but not ALL the credit.[/quote]

I would like you to name alot of the players on the patriots superbowl teams that were atleast top 10 at there position? Tom doesnt have Marvin Harrison or did he ever have a RB of Edges abililty, and yes i realize James doesnt play for them anymore

Re: Tom "Iceman" Brady
 

[quote=GTripp0012;270268]You conviently ignore defense, the main reason that teams win and lose in the playoffs, and a part of the game that the QB has no control over, while citing offensive skill players, people who are often made by their QB. You then cite wins as your arguement while ignoring both defense AND special teams. Shoddy at best.[/quote]

Ignore the defense? Do the patriots have a player with the abilities of Dwight Freeney? Dont the Colts have Bob Sanders,Cato June,Booger Mcfarland, and Robert Mathis on there defense? Why would i ignore Special teams? didnt they have one of the best kickers of his time in Mike Vanderjagt? and now they have Vinatieri. And Terrence Wilkins is one of the best kick returners in the league. Any way you look at it, Peyton has always lined up with more talent than Tom Brady and Tom has still won more important games than Peyton, look you can have Peyton, but if Im starting a team I choose to go with the guy who has three superbowl rings and will not cost me 100 million dollars

Re: Tom "Iceman" Brady
 

[quote=GiantsSuck703;270752]Ignore the defense? Do the patriots have a player with the abilities of Dwight Freeney? Dont the Colts have Bob Sanders,Cato June,Booger Mcfarland, and Robert Mathis on there defense? Why would i ignore Special teams? didnt they have one of the best kickers of his time in Mike Vanderjagt? and now they have Vinatieri. And Terrence Wilkins is one of the best kick returners in the league. Any way you look at it, Peyton has always lined up with more talent than Tom Brady and Tom has still won more important games than Peyton, look you can have Peyton, but if Im starting a team I choose to go with the guy who has three superbowl rings and will not cost me 100 million dollars[/quote]Well, if you bring contract size into it, you may very well have an arguement. One could potentially attribute the Colts inability to have a consistent defensive threat to keep them in games to the fact that Manning's contract is so freakin massive.

But if so, I'm confused as to why you open your post by listing some talented players from the Colts' D. Whats your arguement? That the Colts have and have had a better defensive unit than the Patriots? On what basis?

FRPLG hits this one directly on the head. If you take Manning off the Colts, you have a really piss poor football team. If you take Brady off the Patriots, the team gets significantly worse but only probably to a 8-8 maybe 7-9 level. This of course implys that a replacement level backup (i.e crappy) would take the reins in both situations.

If the question was which quarterback has had the more fufilling career, the answer is Brady. If the question was which quarterback has ultimately been more successful, the answer is Brady. Citing three championships would be a great defense for both of those positions. But if you are trying to answer the simple questions "Which guy is the best?" or "Which one should I take on my team?", you have to look beyond rings to who actually gives his team the best chance to win. 3 rings does crap for Brady going foward. You think Robert Mathis will have Brady wrapped up this week for a sack, only let him go on the context that the guys a three time champion? Not likely.

From a philosophical point of view, I think the whole idea of "winning a ring" is BS anyway. Stay with me. Football is a team game. The players and coaches win and lose as a team. A ring is very much an individual award, and to me thats a crappy way to represent a team achievement. The [B]Lombardi Trophy[/B] is the most soughtafter trophy in sports. It is awarded to the team who wins the NFL Championship each year. It's a team award given for team achievement. Playing for a ring is, at its core, a rather selfish thing to strive for. In effect, you are exerting effort for personal gain, instead of that of the team. Playing for a championship, and playing for a trophy for your team is completely selfless. If you are wondering, this is a very key reason why I put no value into how many "rings" a guy has.

I know that there is little distinction between the two because they come as a package, but the ring would be completely worthless if it didn't represent team achievement, so to use it as an arguement for individual achivement is downright silly.