Re: Kirk Cousins 365 thread
 

[quote=FrenchSkin;1165007]I like your point.

But I also think that for the players it's not all about the money.
It's also a very emotional game.
And I can understand the need to feel support from the board, to feel legitimate not only to play your best football, but to be the leader of the team too, to feel that your work is appreciated.

The guy we saw yell "How do you like me now?!" wasn't begging for money, but for support. (Money is a way to show that you believe in somebody though.)

Now is it an excuse for inconsistent play? Absolutely not. But it has to influence the mindset of a player, his level of confidence.

After to great seasons by KC, I can picture how all the noise and uncertainty, pretty much because of one bad game, has to feel pretty unfair and cheap.[/quote]

I agree with this. I know it's easy for us to sit and ask what he's whining about when he's getting paid 20 mil for a season's worth of work, but it will always be looked at differently from those inside the sport. To take less money means you will be hurting the rest of the qb fraternity when their new deals come up. And that's frowned upon. Because when it comes time for your new deal to come up, the baseline starts with the latest previous deals signed. And as the salary cap rises these deals are only going to get larger.

Re: Kirk Cousins 365 thread
 

[quote=mooby;1165019]I agree with this. I know it's easy for us to sit and ask what he's whining about when he's getting paid 20 mil for a season's worth of work, but it will always be looked at differently from those inside the sport. To take less money means you will be hurting the rest of the qb fraternity when their new deals come up. And that's frowned upon. Because when it comes time for your new deal to come up, the baseline starts with the latest previous deals signed. And as the salary cap rises these deals are only going to get larger.[/quote]

Nobody wrote anything in this thread about Kirk taking less money before you posted.

Re: Kirk Cousins 365 thread
 

[quote=KI Skins Fan;1165020]Nobody wrote anything in this thread about Kirk taking less money before you posted.[/quote]

What does that have anything to do with anything? Are we not allowed to discuss it? I get it, you think Kirk is a whiny bitch for possibly even considering the excuse that he played poorly against the Giants because of the pressure of the upcoming negotiations. My point is, his agent probably won't even consider taking less money because the qb frat in the NFL demands he get market value. It's possible for two separate points to exist about the same discussion. If you don't like hearing about it, ignore it, like I do with your posts.

Re: Kirk Cousins 365 thread
 

[quote=KI Skins Fan;1165017]I didn't blame Cousins inability to relax and play at his best on the lack of a long-term contract. He did.

I'll grant you that he may be upset that he doesn't have the full support of management by now.

I hate whining by anybody, especially multi-millionaires. So, whatever his reasons for being upset he can keep it to himself, as far as I'm concerned. It's business. He's holding all the cards and he doesn't even seem to know it. He should be thinking "If Snyder doesn't want me, then f*** him! I'll go elsewhere, make just as much money, and light up the little bastard's team whenever I play them." That's how grown men handle business matters.[/quote]

I agree with you on the part that he's not in a position where anyone should feel sorry for him.

But I think you are missing part of my point: the emotions a man may feel when he's been working his ass off for several years with people he saw every day, he gets the feeling they are starting to build something great together, and then these people he shared emotional moments with for years seem to not believe in him that much, while he has been among those making their part and more than that.

That has to be frustrating.
Again, it's not all about the money he could make here or elsewhere, I think he felt he was part of an adventure here and would like to see the other members of the adventure believe it should continue together.

Now should he keep his emotions to himself? Absolutely, but I don't think he expressed anything else than the desire to stay here long term. Which I'm fine with.

Anyway we wouldn't be having this discussion had the board done what they should have done weeks ago.

Re: Kirk Cousins 365 thread
 

[quote=FrenchSkin;1165029]I think you are missing part of my point: the emotions a man may feel when he's been working his ass off for several years with people he saw every day, he gets the feeling they are starting to build something great together, and then these people he shared emotional moments with for years seem to not believe in him that much, while he has been among those making their part and more than that.[/quote]

The only way he's going to know if he's wanted is for him and his agent to meet with Dan Snyder and ask Snyder point blank. If the answer is yes, then they should establish a deadline to get a long-term deal done. If an acceptable deal is not completed by that date, they should ask for a trade and then announce to the public that they have asked for a trade. If Dan Snyder wants to tag him again after all that, then they should take the guaranteed $24M on the tag, laugh all the way to the bank, and then go to another team in 2018.

I don't think that Kirk and his agent are being aggressive enough with Dan Snyder. They have the best hand but they're not playing it as if they do.

Re: Kirk Cousins 365 thread
 

I would love to know if DS is even involved at that level. If he is, then we are not as far away from the DS-VC team as I thought. Yes Dan as the owner will be involved in these type numbers, but I don't think he should be meeting or dealing with the agents at all.

I do agree that KC's agent should be more aggressive, but maybe it's all back channel. At this point they have to be talking - right? Right??

Re: Kirk Cousins 365 thread
 

Remember what Shanny said..."QB is the only position Dan cares about."

You better believe folks in the front office are getting his input every step of the negotiations.

Re: Kirk Cousins 365 thread
 

[quote=mooby;1165026]What does that have anything to do with anything? Are we not allowed to discuss it? I get it, you think Kirk is a whiny bitch for possibly even considering the excuse that he played poorly against the Giants because of the pressure of the upcoming negotiations. My point is, his agent probably won't even consider taking less money because the qb frat in the NFL demands he get market value. It's possible for two separate points to exist about the same discussion. If you don't like hearing about it, ignore it, like I do with your posts.[/quote]

if that is true, what is he going to do under the pressure of an nfc championship game? . . . or superbowl? . . . thats a hell of a lot more pressure than his contract negotiations or whining about whether or not his management wants him . . . i call bull shit on that thinking . . . and if i'm wrong, then i don't want kirk here as that means he can't perform under pressure or scrutiny

Re: Kirk Cousins 365 thread
 

[quote=SkinsGuru;1165048]if that is true, what is he going to do under the pressure of an nfc championship game? . . . or superbowl? . . . thats a hell of a lot more pressure than his contract negotiations or whining about whether or not his management wants him . . . i call bull shit on that thinking . . . and if i'm wrong, then i don't want kirk here as that means he can't perform under pressure or scrutiny[/quote]

How many comeback wins did he have when he took over from RG3? ...

Re: Kirk Cousins 365 thread
 

[quote=SkinsGuru;1165048]if that is true, what is he going to do under the pressure of an nfc championship game? . . . or superbowl? . . . thats a hell of a lot more pressure than his contract negotiations or whining about whether or not his management wants him . . . i call bull shit on that thinking . . . and if i'm wrong, then i don't want kirk here as that means he can't perform under pressure or scrutiny[/quote]

You willing to wait an eternity to find the 4-5 guys available in the world right now that can handle championship-winning pressure? Regardless of your argument Kirk represents the best solution at this current time.

Re: Kirk Cousins 365 thread
 

[quote=mooby;1165058]You willing to wait an eternity to find the 4-5 guys available in the world right now that can handle championship-winning pressure? Regardless of your argument Kirk represents the best solution at this current time.[/quote]

I'm sure KC can handle that kind of pressure, he did when he took over, in 2015 how do you call that 7-3 record after the bye, with a 4 wins streak at the end of the season to get us to the playoffs? In your first season as a starter, I call that handling the pressure pretty well...

One bad game doesn't speak about your ability to handle the pressure through your whole career... Even Aaron Rodgers f'd up in some big games...

Cooley said the other day there was another QB, who people told, at the beginning of his career, that he couldn't win the big games, couldn't handle the pressure... his name is Peyton Manning.

Re: Kirk Cousins 365 thread
 

[quote=FrenchSkin;1165065]I'm sure KC can handle that kind of pressure, he did when he took over, in 2015 how do you call that 7-3 record after the bye, with a 4 wins streak at the end of the season to get us to the playoffs? In your first season as a starter, I call that handling the pressure pretty well...

One bad game doesn't speak about your ability to handle the pressure through your whole career... Even Aaron Rodgers f'd up in some big games...

Cooley said the other day there was another QB, who people told, at the beginning of his career, that he couldn't win the big games, couldn't handle the pressure... his name is Peyton Manning.[/quote]

Great post. Aaron Rodgers at times this past season looked "done".

Re: Kirk Cousins 365 thread
 

[quote=mooby;1165058]You willing to wait an eternity to find the 4-5 guys available in the world right now that can handle championship-winning pressure? Regardless of your argument Kirk represents the best solution at this current time.[/quote]

isn't that the whole goal? i certainly would rather wait than sit in mediocrity . . . if he can't handle the pressure (and I didn't say he couldn't, just IF), then hell no, i want to win a championship . . . i was rooting in the 80's and remember 3 championships very clearly (well the first not as much), we certainly didn't have issues finding players that played up to the moment then.

Re: Kirk Cousins 365 thread
 

[quote=SkinsGuru;1165072]isn't that the whole goal? i certainly would rather wait than sit in mediocrity . . . if he can't handle the pressure (and I didn't say he couldn't, just IF), then hell no, i want to win a championship . . . i was rooting in the 80's and remember 3 championships very clearly (well the first not as much), we certainly didn't have issues finding players that played up to the moment then.[/quote]

The Ravens won a SB with Joe Flacco. Hell, the niners almost won with Colin freakin' Kaepernick! Isn't KC way better than the second and at the very least slightly better than the first ?

Re: Kirk Cousins 365 thread
 

[quote=FrenchSkin;1165075]The Ravens won a SB with Joe Flacco. Hell, the niners almost won with Colin freakin' Kaepernick! Isn't KC way better than the second and at the very least slightly better than the first ?[/quote]

Flacco has been stellar in the playoffs . . . and his playoff play is why he has a huge contract . . . again, i'm not the one saying he folds under pressure . . . but if he can't handle the pressure of a contract negotiation in which he makes a MINIMUM of 24 million for a year, then no way he handles the pressure of a game like a conference championship or super bowl . . . i personally don't think his lack of contract had anything to do whatsoever with his play in the last game, he just had a shitty game like he has at times over his career . . . everyone has them, hell Brady had a horrible game going in the superbowl this year until the 4th quarter.

Re: Kirk Cousins 365 thread
 

So just a pleasant reminder folks, tomorrow (February 15th) is the first day that teams can designate tags on their players. I doubt we'll hear anything out of the 'skins until the March 1st deadline, but things should start heating up after tomorrow.

Re: Kirk Cousins 365 thread
 

Franchise him this year, transition tag him next year.

Re: Kirk Cousins 365 thread
 

[quote=SkinsGuru;1165072]isn't that the whole goal? i certainly would rather wait than sit in mediocrity . . . if he can't handle the pressure (and I didn't say he couldn't, just IF), then hell no, i want to win a championship . . . i was rooting in the 80's and remember 3 championships very clearly (well the first not as much), we certainly didn't have issues finding players that played up to the moment then.[/quote]

Go ask the Cards, the Lions, and the Browns if waiting for the right qb is working out for them. I think you are forgetting football is a team sport, you can win a SB with a great team and a decent qb. We don't need Kirk to be the next Brady, which it seems is what you're asking for. You're also forgetting that those teams in the 80's played in a very different NFL than today. The rules today are geared towards higher scoring offenses which demand at minimum above-average qb play. Kirk has shown he can do that. Quit trying to blame the entire Giants game on him, the entire team looked bad that day.

Re: Kirk Cousins 365 thread
 

[quote=mooby;1165103]Go ask the Cards, the Lions, and the Browns if waiting for the right qb is working out for them. I think you are forgetting football is a team sport, you can win a SB with a great team and a decent qb. We don't need Kirk to be the next Brady, which it seems is what you're asking for. You're also forgetting that those teams in the 80's played in a very different NFL than today. The rules today are geared towards higher scoring offenses which demand at minimum above-average qb play. Kirk has shown he can do that. Quit trying to blame the entire Giants game on him,[B] the entire team looked bad that day[/B].[/quote]

Yop. Especially on offense. IIRC Defense did pretty much everything we could expect out of them at that point to put the offense in position to win. Even Trent Williams had an horrible game...

Re: Kirk Cousins 365 thread
 

[quote=Evilgrin;1165102]Franchise him this year, transition tag him next year.[/quote]

Heard that possibility talked about by Cooley and Kevin. I think that's an argument for the team's board to say "take this offer or we have that option and are ready to use it".
But I don't see how that's a great idea, we'd end up paying him in 3 years the same amount of guaranteed money he'd be asking for 6 years...

Re: Kirk Cousins 365 thread
 

[quote=Evilgrin;1165102]Franchise him this year, transition tag him next year.[/quote]

That would be terrible cap management. You would have given him in effect a 3 year guaranteed of 67-70Million. If you plan to do that, write up a 75Mill guarantee 6yr deal net 145M and be done with it for the next 6 years.

Re: Kirk Cousins 365 thread
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1165112]That would be terrible cap management. You would have given him in effect a 3 year guaranteed of 67-70Million. If you plan to do that, write up a 75Mill guarantee 6yr deal net 145M and be done with it for the next 6 years.[/quote]

It would hurt the team-building process, as well. The situation here would hardly be encouraging to free agents with a Head Coach in the final year of his contract, a GM on the hot seat, and the starting QB on his second franchise tag deal.

No sense going into it too much. I think most of us would agree that the idea of tagging Kirk twice more is pretty much idiotic. Worse, it portends a descent into Dumb and Dumber II, with Smithers in the role of Vinny.

Re: Kirk Cousins 365 thread
 

[QUOTE=mooby;1165103]Go ask the Cards, the Lions, and the Browns if waiting for the right qb is working out for them. I think you are forgetting football is a team sport, you can win a SB with a great team and a decent qb. We don't need Kirk to be the next Brady, which it seems is what you're asking for. You're also forgetting that those teams in the 80's played in a very different NFL than today. The rules today are geared towards higher scoring offenses which demand at minimum above-average qb play. Kirk has shown he can do that. Quit trying to blame the entire Giants game on him, the entire team looked bad that day.[/QUOTE]



This


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Re: Kirk Cousins 365 thread
 

To be fair the defense gave up 12 points in the giants game.

The offense let us down big time as a whole. Without that fumble return at the end to give them 19, two touchdowns out of our offense would have won the game

Re: Kirk Cousins 365 thread
 

[quote=artmonkforhallofamein07;1165132]To be fair the defense gave up 12 points in the giants game.

The offense let us down big time as a whole. Without that fumble return at the end to give them 19, two touchdowns out of our offense would have won the game[/quote]

That lost was squarely on the offense. I agree.

Re: Kirk Cousins 365 thread
 

[quote=mredskins;1165143]That lost was squarely on the offense. I agree.[/quote]

Which is why they immediately fired the DC.

Re: Kirk Cousins 365 thread
 

[quote=mooby;1165103]Go ask the Cards, the Lions, and the Browns if waiting for the right qb is working out for them. I think you are forgetting football is a team sport, you can win a SB with a great team and a decent qb. We don't need Kirk to be the next Brady, which it seems is what you're asking for. You're also forgetting that those teams in the 80's played in a very different NFL than today. The rules today are geared towards higher scoring offenses which demand at minimum above-average qb play. Kirk has shown he can do that. Quit trying to blame the entire Giants game on him, the entire team looked bad that day.[/quote]

Lions? They seem to have a pretty solid quarterback in Mathew Stafford.

Re: Kirk Cousins 365 thread
 

[quote=KI Skins Fan;1165152]Which is why they immediately fired the DC.[/quote]

I am talking about THAT loss. Barry was fired for his performance for the entire season.

Re: Kirk Cousins 365 thread
 

[quote=metalskins;1165158]Lions? They seem to have a pretty solid quarterback in Mathew Stafford.[/quote]

I think he meant Bills, Jets, Rams.....IDK

Re: Kirk Cousins 365 thread
 

My thinking right now is that we will non-exclusive franchise tag Cousins this year because we can likely match the majority of offers that are signed for him and take the value if we decide not to match.

If we lose Kirk, it will be to the... Browns.

Everyone is thinking that SF because of Kyle tie in, but I believe it will be the Browns who will sign that offer sheet because they have the ammo and the reasoning.

They can trade the 1st overall pick and still pick in the first round at 12. The also have multiple 2nd round picks and the most cap space. If they want to do an outright trade they have the ammunition to make that happen.

Last year the Browns racked up multiple picks in this draft and if they don't make the right decisions this year that management will be fired.

Re: Kirk Cousins 365 thread
 

[quote=diehardskin2982;1165168]My thinking right now is that we will non-exclusive franchise tag Cousins this year because we can likely match the majority of offers that are signed for him and take the value if we decide not to match.

If we lose Kirk, it will be to the... Browns.

Everyone is thinking that SF because of Kyle tie in, but I believe it will be the Browns who will sign that offer sheet because they have the ammo and the reasoning.

They can trade the 1st overall pick and still pick in the first round at 12. The also have multiple 2nd round picks and the most cap space. If they want to do an outright trade they have the ammunition to make that happen.

Last year the Browns racked up multiple picks in this draft and if they don't make the right decisions this year that management will be fired.[/quote]

I don't think we lose Kirk Cousins to anybody, but if it were to happen, it would be interesting that the Browns wind up getting both of our 2012 quarterback draft picks. I'm sure there's still a small sec of Redskins fans who would say to straight up trade Cousins for RGIII back, lol!

What if there was some weird three way trade where the 'skins jettisoned Cousins to the 49ers, the 49ers make some weird trade with New England in which Jimmy Garoppolo wound up heading to Washington? Could you imagine the nightmare of trying to spell his name right in these forums?

Re: Kirk Cousins 365 thread
 

[quote=metalskins;1165170] Could you imagine the nightmare of trying to spell his name right in these forums?[/quote]

Garo? Polo!

That isnt too hard to spell really.....

bad, bad, bad, pun. Sorry, bored at work.

Re: Kirk Cousins 365 thread
 

[quote=Kope;1165181]Garo? Polo!

That isnt too hard to spell really.....

bad, bad, bad, pun. Sorry, bored at work.[/quote]


LOL! Hmmmm.....Jimmy Marco! Now that might have a ring to it.

Re: Kirk Cousins 365 thread
 

[quote=metalskins;1165158]Lions? They seem to have a pretty solid quarterback in Mathew Stafford.[/quote]

Right now they do, absolutely. I'm talking in terms of how many titles they've won off the strength of their elite quarterbacks.

Re: Kirk Cousins 365 thread
 

[quote=mredskins;1165160]I think he meant Bills, Jets, Rams.....IDK[/quote]

I was talking about any team that has spent more than a person's lifetime and never won a championship. Championship caliber qb's are hard to find. Kirk represents our best chance to win one in the next 5-10 years. If you give him up it might be decades before we find another one. Sure that seems unreasonable but I'm gonna bet after '91 nobody thought it would take 25+ seasons to find another franchise qb.

Re: Kirk Cousins 365 thread
 

[quote=mooby;1165198]I was talking about any team that has spent more than a person's lifetime and never won a championship. Championship caliber qb's are hard to find. Kirk represents our best chance to win one in the next 5-10 years. If you give him up it might be decades before we find another one. Sure that seems unreasonable but I'm gonna bet after '91 nobody thought it would take 25+ seasons to find another franchise qb.[/quote]

What about Brad Johnson? But Snyder screwed that up too

Re: Kirk Cousins 365 thread
 

[quote=htownskinfan;1165214]What about Brad Johnson? But Snyder screwed that up too[/quote]

I was about 11 years old in '99, and I remember 2000 as being the year my dad had season tickets and I got into football, but the Redskins went 8-8 that year and then Johnson left and went on to win a SB with the Bucs. But my point is, according to the stats BJ had a great season in '99 and then a subpar year in 2000 which is why we released him. So in hindsight, yeah he could have been a great qb? Someone more knowledgeable about this can answer this better than me, but I guess my main point is, we let him go because he was coming off a bad year. Kirk's year, last game included, is far from a bad year. A bad year is RG3 2013/14, Beck/Grossman/McNabb 2010-2011, Jason Campbell multiple years, Patrick Ramsey/Mark Brunell every year not including 2005, any of the 2000-2005 years with what seems like 12 different qb's, any of the 92-98 years (admittedly before my time so feel free to correct me if I am wrong), etc.

That's a super fucking real alternative based off factual history. Much like a certain presidential candidate this "why not let him go" thing seems to be gaining traction despite an overwhelming mound of evidence as to why it shouldn't happen, least of all being the NFL typically has at least half the teams with uncertain qb solutions every single year. We give up Kirk, we go from the haves to have nots. We go from square 3, on a scale of 5, back to square 1.

Re: Kirk Cousins 365 thread
 

[url]https://twitter.com/nfl/status/832048137875238914[/url]


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Re: Kirk Cousins 365 thread
 

[quote=Brody81;1165221][url]https://twitter.com/nfl/status/832048137875238914[/url]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[/quote]

Thanks for posting this video. I think Willie McGinest is 100% correct. He stated the case for Kirk eloquently and succinctly.

FWIW, here's where I stand on the issue:

- Both Kirk Cousins and Jay Gruden must be retained and extended.

- Anything other than a long-term deal for Kirk would be plain stupid on the part of the Redskins. They need to get this done.

- Kirk continues to get better in this offensive system, yet there still seems to be some doubt about Jay Gruden being retained past this season. That is utterly preposterous. Jay Gruden has done a very good job. He must be extended so that his system can be retained and perfected by the on-field leader of this team, Kirk Cousins.

It is so easy to envision what this team can become if Dan Snyder keeps the same QB and HC in place that I'd like to think even Dan Snyder couldn't f*** this up.

Re: Kirk Cousins 365 thread
 

[quote=mooby;1165218]I was about 11 years old in '99, and I remember 2000 as being the year my dad had season tickets and I got into football, but the Redskins went 8-8 that year and then Johnson left and went on to win a SB with the Bucs. But my point is, according to the stats BJ had a great season in '99 and then a subpar year in 2000 which is why we released him. So in hindsight, yeah he could have been a great qb? Someone more knowledgeable about this can answer this better than me, but I guess my main point is, we let him go because he was coming off a bad year. Kirk's year, last game included, is far from a bad year. A bad year is RG3 2013/14, Beck/Grossman/McNabb 2010-2011, Jason Campbell multiple years, Patrick Ramsey/Mark Brunell every year not including 2005, any of the 2000-2005 years with what seems like 12 different qb's, any of the 92-98 years (admittedly before my time so feel free to correct me if I am wrong), etc.

That's a super fucking real alternative based off factual history. Much like a certain presidential candidate this "why not let him go" thing seems to be gaining traction despite an overwhelming mound of evidence as to why it shouldn't happen, least of all being the NFL typically has at least half the teams with uncertain qb solutions every single year. We give up Kirk, we go from the haves to have nots. We go from square 3, on a scale of 5, back to square 1.[/quote]

Brad Johnson was a solid, decent quarterback. Never was going to be great IMO. He always seemed to put up good numbers though, but when you start thinking about Super Bowl winning quarterbacks, he's kind of like Trent Dilfer, he's not going to be a quarterback you think of initially.

Snyder was very, very dumb in getting rid of Brad Johnson. But then again, the way that front office was in those early years under this ownership, nothing surprised me. I thought he was also very dumb in getting rid of Charley Casserly. I thought Casserly had put together a decent team for Turner and it darn near got to the NFC Championship game in the '99 playoffs. But anyway, back to Brad Johnson. I always felt Johnson was a solid quarterback who was never going to be elite. He's an example of being good enough that if he's placed on a team with a solid group built around him, he's going to produce for you. Just like Kirk Cousins. I think Kirk Cousins has the potential of being much better than Brad Johnson ever was, but I think to produce Super Bowls, he can't put a team on his back like a Brett Favre, Aaron Rodgers, or a Tom Brady. He needs that good supporting cast around him.