Why Doesn't "Gibbs' Football" Work for the Redskins?

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by GMScud

A couple of things here-
Gibbs brought in Saunders to implement a system. He wouldn't have done that if he was satisfied his old school style would hold up nowadays. The TE is a huge part of a Saunders offense. And Cooley has been phenomenal. Just as Gonzalez was phenomenal when Saunders was in KC. I agree that Gibbs likes the TE to be a blocker, but Don Warren and Clint Didier caught their share of passes too. Cooley is a mismatch weapon on offense, and should be used as such. Gibbs drafted him to be his signature "h-back," and he's worked out as far as production is concerned, even though the h-back isn't around now. Now that the line is dinged we may need to use more two TE sets, with Cooley as a passing option and Yoder staying in to help block.

I disagree that Sellers can't block Strahan types. At 285lbs he is as big or bigger than most DE's in the league.

And despite the two injuries on the O-line, we are pretty healthy. We need to come out and pound this Lions squad.

I think you misunderstood me. I didn't say he couldn't block him, I just said with 5 yards of strahan running at him...well, no one really will win that battle. Strahan will run over anyone when he has that much speed up. A stationary Sellers vs a full speed Strahan is not good...Sellers won't be in a situation where he's on the line to block him from scratch.
Sellers also is not the greatest of pass blockers. He's good, but not as good as he could be...he is more beneficial in the run game.

I do agree with most of what you said. I know we need to free up Cooley, but I'd rather have protection. So while I do agree with you, I disagree about your comments with Didier and Warren. Wasn't Warren named an honorary Hog? Anywho...Didier never had more than 41 catches and only had 2 other seasons of 30 or more in his career. Warren never had more than 31 catches. Cooley has had a 71 catch season and a 57 catch season. I say all that to show that both Didier and Warren were blockers first receivers 2nd.

[jsarno]

BTW
Cooley - 171 catches in 3.25 seasons.
Didier - 141 catches in 8 season.
Warren - 244 catches in 14 seasons.

[GMScud]

Originally Posted by jsarno

BTW
Cooley - 171 catches in 3.25 seasons.
Didier - 141 catches in 8 season.
Warren - 244 catches in 14 seasons.

All I said was they caught their share of passes. You have to play to your strengths. Gibbs drafted Cooley before Saunders was even on our radar. He's been our most consistent weapon in the passing game. I know traditional "Gibbs" football has a block 1st TE, but he brought in Saunders for a reason, and the TE plays a very prominent role in his offense.

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by GMScud

All I said was they caught their share of passes. You have to play to your strengths. Gibbs drafted Cooley before Saunders was even on our radar. He's been our most consistent weapon in the passing game. I know traditional "Gibbs" football has a block 1st TE, but he brought in Saunders for a reason, and the TE plays a very prominent role in his offense.

I do 100% agree with you there.
I will say this though...remember the Spurrier era here? The send everyone out to catch and skrew blocking era? I guess I am just more hesitant to put Cooley out to catch when our O line is hurting. I know we need him to catch and open up the offense, but we need blocking too.

[GMScud]

Originally Posted by jsarno

I do 100% agree with you there.
I will say this though...remember the Spurrier era here? The send everyone out to catch and skrew blocking era? I guess I am just more hesitant to put Cooley out to catch when our O line is hurting. I know we need him to catch and open up the offense, but we need blocking too.

With Moss gimpy we need all the help we can get in the passing game. Cooley is too good to be relegated to blocking. We gotta score more!!!

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by GMScud

With Moss gimpy we need all the help we can get in the passing game. Cooley is too good to be relegated to blocking. We gotta score more!!!

We won't score more without blocking. The O line is the most important "overall" position on the field IMO. It all starts there.

I like the idea of two TE sets though. Let Yoder block...he can't really catch well. LOL.

[KLHJ2]

Originally Posted by GhettoDogAllStars

Indy, NE, and GB all have HoF quarterbacks. Dallas is an exception, but when you have a rookie QB, and are leading by multiple scores, common wisdom is to run clock. Otherwise, you might end up committing turnovers and giving the other team a chance to win. Imagine if we came out passing in the 2nd half, and JC threw a pick for TD. Whoops, now our lead is only 1 TD. What's better -- going 3 and out, or that?

No guts no glory, leave it all out on the field, let em play, he aint going to get good if you keep holding him back. All of those and then some come to mind. Either he learns to be a stellar QB very quickly or we find out that he is not sooner. Bottom line you have to give him a chance. I think he earned that opportunity in the offseason. Now he needs to take his lumps and learn on game day. I would rather we lose the game by trying to win it, than lose the game trying nurse a mediocre lead.

[4mrusmc]

Back in the day when Joe ver.1 was beating up the NFL, we simply had a COMPLETE team at every position, with an emphasis put on the O-line. Our O-line was hands down, the best in the league. Nobody blocked better for the running game, and nobody pass protected better. Come the 4th quarter, other teams simply tapped-out from the pounding. Also, we were winning games by big scores, and doing so with no trickery. It wasn't fancy, just basic football played with heart, and a team that believed in what it was doing. This team has alot to prove from last year's disappointment, I'm willing to let them do it. Us as fans need to support them, but it is time to start playing like a team that has had the same Hall of Fame coach now for 4 years. This coach is a winner, and he has the Super Bowls to prove it, but that is long history. I'll just close by saying this, "Redskins, stop talking about doing something, and start doing something."

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by 4mrusmc

Back in the day when Joe ver.1 was beating up the NFL, we simply had a COMPLETE team at every position, with an emphasis put on the O-line. Our O-line was hands down, the best in the league. Nobody blocked better for the running game, and nobody pass protected better. Come the 4th quarter, other teams simply tapped-out from the pounding. Also, we were winning games by big scores, and doing so with no trickery. It wasn't fancy, just basic football played with heart, and a team that believed in what it was doing. This team has alot to prove from last year's disappointment, I'm willing to let them do it. Us as fans need to support them, but it is time to start playing like a team that has had the same Hall of Fame coach now for 4 years. This coach is a winner, and he has the Super Bowls to prove it, but that is long history. I'll just close by saying this, "Redskins, stop talking about doing something, and start doing something."

You bring the point up about the blocking. A while back I said here that if I had to start a team from scratch and I could have anyone I wanted, I would pick the best LT, RT, 2 guards, and Center in the league all first, then pick from there. You can have anyone play RB and just about anyone play QB if you have the best pass protection and run blocking money can buy. Gibbs knows this as well...Just look at Rypien, he was one of the worst QBs the Skins have ever had to start, but his protection was amazing and he had a couple good years here. I guarentee if Jason Campbell had that line, he would throw for 4000 yards.
The loss of Jansen and Thomas are hurting more than anyone wants to admit.

[SouperMeister]

Originally Posted by jsarno

I think you misunderstood me. I didn't say he couldn't block him, I just said with 5 yards of strahan running at him...well, no one really will win that battle. Strahan will run over anyone when he has that much speed up. A stationary Sellers vs a full speed Strahan is not good...Sellers won't be in a situation where he's on the line to block him from scratch.
Sellers also is not the greatest of pass blockers. He's good, but not as good as he could be...he is more beneficial in the run game.

I do agree with most of what you said. I know we need to free up Cooley, but I'd rather have protection. So while I do agree with you, I disagree about your comments with Didier and Warren. Wasn't Warren named an honorary Hog? Anywho...Didier never had more than 41 catches and only had 2 other seasons of 30 or more in his career. Warren never had more than 31 catches. Cooley has had a 71 catch season and a 57 catch season. I say all that to show that both Didier and Warren were blockers first receivers 2nd.

Some important distinctions in the blocking roles of Didier and Warren: Warren was a classic blocking tight end, almost always lined up on the line of scrimmage next to the OT. Didier was the H-back in a single running back offense. He might be lined up wide on passing plays and he was often put in motion, especially on running plays. I think of the H-back in Gibbs offense as more of a pass receiving fullback than a blocking TE, especially on passing downs.

[The Zimmermans]

Let's look at the 4 undefeated teams in the league and their passing statistics.

Dallas Romo, TO, Clayton 1153 yards
Indy Manning, Harrison, Wayne 1051 yards
Green Bay Favre, Driver, Jennings 1155 yards
NE Brady, Moss, Stallworth 1099 yards


Washington Campbell, Moss, Randle El 792 yards

I factored in our average yards/game to calculate if we didn't have a bye.


Now, I know you guys are "happy" with 2-1, but I want 3-0....and 4-0.
We have what I think is a good QB and good WR's, lets play like it.....throw on first.....run on 2nd and third.....I don't care, just go for it!!!!!!!! The lions are gonnna score.....maybe 20+ points....they've done it every week, so we need to do the same.

[CHIEF CHUCKING MY SPEAR]

Gibbs style can work now. But the problem is he doesnt coach like he did in the past. He was to conservative now than he was in the past. When your up 14 points its not the time to sit on the ball. Its time to put your foot on the other teams ass and blow then out. Like Dallas does now and NE and the Colts. they keep on trying to score all the time. Keeping the pressure on the other teams all the time. We use to do that in the past with gibbs,

[skinsguy]

My thing is this. Let's rewind back to the Giants game. We were up 14 points in the second half. If I seem to remember correctly, didn't the Giants get the ball first in the second half? Didn't they score a TD on that drive? Maybe I'm wrong, but I was thinking this is what happened. So, basically, the Redskins had a 7 point lead when they received the ball. So, the 'skins get the ball back, do a quick three and out and the Giants come back and score again. Now, we're all tied up! So, is it the offense or defense or both? Hhmmm... Now, on the the real point....

If we throw three incomplete passes down field, stopping the clock each time we do this, then how is that any better than a ball controlled approach? Yeah, there is more time left for us to get the ball, but at the same time, it puts our defense back on the field just as fast, if not faster. Ok, well let's just pass on first down and run on second. Ok, well suppose that first down pass is incomplete. Are we going to run on second down? If we get a minimal gain on second down, we set ourselves up for a third and long. We throw an incompletion on that down, we still have to punt after a three an out, and we still stop the clock. This gives the opposing team more time and more opportunities to score.

I can see why Gibbs or any coach would want to apply a more ball controlled approach with a basically a rookie QB in the line up. Now, certainly you can say, "Well Romo is in the very same situation that Campbell is in." Yes, I agree, but the big difference is Dallas's receivers are doing a better job of catching the ball. Our receivers have dropped quite a few balls so far this year. If we had a few key passes caught from Moss, we would've beat both Miami and Philadelphia by larger margins. And, receivers doing a better job with catching the ball gives the QB more confidence to throw the ball down field AND gives the coach more confidence to open the offense up. But, that hasn't happened, and it sounds to me like those are problems with EXECUTION!

The point I'm making is this. You run more on first down. Even if you only gain a minimal amount of yards, you still have the opportunity to either pass or run again on second down. If either gives you a third and short, then you still have that option to either run or pass. And, you have higher percentage plays to choose from....plays that keep the clock running, keeps your offense on the field, and shortens the game.

This is what Gibbs is wanting to do for Campbell. He wants to shorten the game for the guy. Yes, being too conservative can bite ya in the butt and there is a fine line to follow with playing like this. However, it is better to bring a QB up like that, rather than to put him in the fire and expect him to win every game himself. Campbell is not Tom Brady or Peyton Manning...YET! He's Jason Campbell. He might be better than those guys in a couple of years, but we all have to learn patience. I've said this time and time again. Do I like to lose? Heck no. But, I like things being down right. I am much like Gibbs when it comes to paying attention to detail. I don't want to assume anything. With Gibbs, he's still trying to figure out what type of players he has. He is still trying to see what Campbell can really do for us. It's going to take this season for the coaching staff and the fans to really know what Campbell can do. And yet, we're still 2-1 and have a good chance at having a winning record this year. We all should see that Jason Campbell isn't quite there yet, but this is what is so exciting. The fact that he is just getting started, making his mistakes, but still leading his team to a winning record. We all want perfection right away. Well, it's not going to happen right away.

[CHIEF CHUCKING MY SPEAR]

Yes but Gibbs comments coming out of the half. Was that he was worried about pass pertection, even though we starting passing on the giants at the beginning of the game throwing deep to moss. He was so worried about the protecting the second half to run on first down, Instead of teams like dallas,NE<Indy who keep going for the jugular.

[skinsguy]

Originally Posted by CHIEF CHUCKING MY SPEAR

Yes but Gibbs comments coming out of the half. Was that he was worried about pass pertection, even though we starting passing on the giants at the beginning of the game throwing deep to moss. He was so worried about the protecting the second half to run on first down, Instead of teams like dallas,NE<Indy who keep going for the jugular.

But we have the right side of our line out because of injury. Wouldn't you think pass protection would be a concern? Like I said earlier, those teams are better than us at completing passes. Our receivers have dropped a lot very catchable balls this year.