Gun Control Thread- Should we?

[SmootSmack]

There were a string of robberies in my sister in law's apartment complex, a few years back. Guy would basically mug a couple at gunpoint, usually when they had their hands full with groceries. He'd make them take him to their apartment, he'd rob the place and leave. Nobody harmed, other than emotionally. Happened a couple of times until the third or fourth mugging.

Dude who was being mugged along with his girlfriend had a gun, so he pulled it out. Suspect shot them both dead right away.

Now I know that's just one example, but it's an example of everyone having a gun not being the solution.

[NC_Skins]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

Now I know that's just one example, but it's an example of everyone having a gun not being the solution.

I agree totally. Having a gun isn't going to be the ultimate solution. Those who claim it is, well, lets just say they are a bit misguided. I still think the numbers and percentage will weigh more in favor of those having guns.


I will say this. A robber/criminal will more than likely think twice about robbing stores or individuals that are packing heat. I know I sure as hell would unless I was looking for a shootout. I would guess that most criminals are looking for easy scores.

[JoeRedskin]

From the Nugent thread. My take on criminal predators and guns.

Originally Posted by love them hogs

Predators always pray on the weakest and pay very close attention to whom they prey upon.If you need proof just observe every living creature on the planet.

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

Human predators may or may not be animalistic in their pursuit. But I would agree with you that predators pay very close attention to there prey. It is for this reason that gun ownership likely does not prevent an attack.

For example, if the human predator is simply looking to waylay a weakling for a quick score, certainly they would chose someone who "appears" weak. In such a situation, only an unconcealed weapon will prevent an attack. Otherwise, the predator will likely pick based on the appearance and may be unlucky to draw someone who has a gun.

Even in the "prey upon those who appear weak" situation, however, a concealed weapon does not guarrantee safety. As long as we are doing the animal analogy here - How many predators announce their presence to the prey prior to the strike? Not many successful ones. (The cheetah stands up and shouts across to plain to the gazelle "Hey buddy - I'm on my way and your dead meat"). The "prey on the weak" type of human predators will use stealth and will likely have some type of weapon for intimidation purposes. Again, by the time the predator is upon you, you may or may not have time to draw your weapon and disable them. I would suggest that, generally, this is not a given and, depending on the situation, may result in the serious injury of those you are trying to protect. Okay, you killed the bad guy but he managed to kill/maim your wife/child during the exchange. A risk you're willing to take? Maybe. It all depends on how "good" a "predator" he is.

Quite frankly, the only way to ensure protection from this kind of "find a weakling" predator is to permit people to openly carry weapons. Not sure how I feel about that.

Also, I would suggest to you that not all human predator's seek the weak. Many are very human with very human desires and capabilities for thought. Thus, many human predators, the truly dangerous ones, seek a specific thing (money, to rape your wife or daughter, to exact revenge, to inflict pain upon you, etc.). These predators are more along the lines of hunters and they know that they need not attack the weak to succeed, attacking the strong at a weak moment will work just as well. You have a gun? Or you may have a gun? I don't care if you have a gun b/c I will attack you (again with surprise) at a point in time when you will be unable to use it. Hell, I will assume you are armed and plan my attack accordingly. (Your putting your wife's coat on her, I can see both your hands and will kill your wife if you move them out of my sight). In such a case, the fact that you may be armed has already been factored into my attack and is of no deterrent value.

In each of these scenarios, the only time a gun offers protection is when the predator is looking for a weakling, surprises someone who, instead, has a gun, AND the predator was dumb enough to let the prey access and use the gun. In this situation, if you do kill the predator, you are actually reducing the long term effectivenes of your gun by culling out the dumb predators and leaving more of the smart ones out there.

Bottom line, personal safety is about awareness of self and situation. While carrying a concealed weapon can often help, it is simply not a guarantee of safety.

[Monksdown]

Gun control is a good thing provided it incorporates responsible gun ownership.

On a side note, i think that in a macro sense human civilization will eventually benefit from the technological path set by gunpowder and it's denominations. I'm not being naive, in that i know where we are at right now. I understand the massive deaths and the individual deaths humanity has been exposed to because of guns. I think there are tangents to the technology that tunnel vision doesnt allow us to consider normally.

I would speculate that wars that would have killed millions of people in the past, are now ended with deaths in the 10's of thousands. The tech that has been developed that allows the alleged 'good guys' to reach into a situation remotely and fix a 'bad guy' has allowed for quick solutions that i believe save lives.

That's for the most part conceptual, and will no doubt upset a vast majority of us. I would encourage you to refrain from the knee-jerk reaction you've developed on this topic and while not agreeing with me, you cant get around one basic fact. Guns are here. You cant wholly restrict them, and until you can, i will stand by my right to defend my territory in as responsible and as safe a way as i was taught.

Two other small points. Citizen gun ownership is necessary as leverage in a country built on rebellion.

I see both sides of the argument, but i have a visualization i fall back on. It's of me hearing a noise, getting up and looking down past my son's room at the front door of my condo wide open with a man with a gun standing there. No law or regulation will ever prevent me from bringing equal threat to that potential criminal. Ever.

[RedskinRat]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

Dude who was being mugged along with his girlfriend had a gun, so he pulled it out. Suspect shot them both dead right away.

That's merely an example of a gun owner not knowing how to react in a situation, not a failure of the concealed carry.

Why would you think you could pull a weapon and put a round on the target if the aggressor already has his weapon on you?

Every week in the NRA magazine I get there are police reports listed of a gun owner defending themselves or helping others using their firearm. I'd compile them or link to them if I wasn't so lazy.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by RedskinRat

That's merely an example of a gun owner not knowing how to react in a situation, not a failure of the concealed carry.

Why would you think you could pull a weapon and put a round on the target if the aggressor already has his weapon on you?

Every week in the NRA magazine I get there are police reports listed of a gun owner defending themselves or helping others using their firearm. I'd compile them or link to them if I wasn't so lazy.

Wait, but aren't there people here saying that the solution to the massacre in Aurora would have been everyone started pulling their weapon?

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

Wait, but aren't there people here saying that the solution to the massacre in Aurora would have been everyone started pulling their weapon?

I don't think anyone would say that everyone just pulls out an Uzi and lets loose is any better a solution than everyone running and being pop up targets for a delusional gunman. However, a person who knows how to react, ie that first you get cover, then aim and fire, might have made a difference in that theatre.

For the record, every US army soldier goes through MOUT(military operations in urban terrain) training, along with basic training, and learns how to deal with tear gas. I will say that going through the gas chamber, or shooting while my gas mask was removed were things I never want to do again, but the point is some people who might want to carry would have been very prepared for that scenario.

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by mlmpetert

I buy all my guns this way whenever possible. While i think it would be ridiculous to require a background check for private sales i would be okay with a law that says you have to personally know someone or show an ID to buy a gun. Or maybe if no ID is avialable you have to write a reciept.

I have a problem with that. So John with a clear back ground can go buy a gun and sell it to Mike who wants it to gang bang and no back ground check.

[Alvin Walton]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

Wait, but aren't there people here saying that the solution to the massacre in Aurora would have been everyone started pulling their weapon?

I sure didnt.

There is no solution to that.
You cant predict insanity.

[RedskinRat]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

Wait, but aren't there people here saying that the solution to the massacre in Aurora would have been everyone started pulling their weapon?

One assailant, two targets is not the same as a theater full of targets, come on now.

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

Wait, but aren't there people here saying that the solution to the massacre in Aurora would have been everyone started pulling their weapon?

Originally Posted by Alvin Walton

I sure didnt.
There is no solution to that.

You cant predict insanity.

Some have.

My point is only that: (1) The assumption that it necessarily would have lessened the damage is an assumption based on a lot of things breaking the right way for the good guys and (2) Generically, the right to carry concealed weaponry would not have deterred Holmes from carrying out this particular crime.

[SmootSmack]

Well I'm done with this thread.

[RedskinRat]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

Well I'm done with this thread.

Probably just as well, you really weren't holding up your end of the argument.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

Well I'm done with this thread.

I think mredskins said it best when he said this is a merry go round.

[mlmpetert]

Originally Posted by firstdown

I have a problem with that. So John with a clear back ground can go buy a gun and sell it to Mike who wants it to gang bang and no back ground check.

Correct. The same holds true for Josh with a perfect driving record who sells a fast car to Mark who wants to use it for speed racing and who is without a license and insurance.

I have only sold (was actually a partial trade for a non firearm item plus cash) one gun like this. But i have bought many guns this way. In fact i even traded a "hot rod" (dont worry it wasnt to Mark) style elCamanio Conquista for several thousand dollars worth of guns/ammo/accesories plus a thousand or so of cash. I know how redneck and outlandish that last statement may sound, but i swear im not a redneck. Heck i was at a Boyz II Men concert a month or so ago.

My understanding of the law is that the seller retains some responsibilties in these sales. So lets say i sold firstdown a gun. I would have to reasonably suspect that he is a VA resident, at least 21 years old, not a felon, or suspect that he would use it in a unlawful way. I am also not allowed to be a dealer or a person selling a gun that i bought for the sole prupose of reselling it. *I think the dealer thing is tricky and there may be some exceptions.

A few things ive noticed in my personal experience of buying/selling guns like this. Many people doing this are police, military or the like. Many people will only sell to CCP holders and/or require multiple forms of ID. Many people doing this are trading firearms for other firearms. When i say many i mean around 50%.

Additional I think in 3 of the times i bought guns this way, the kids or familes of the seller were present. In nearly every instance the transactions have taken place in parking lots with lots of "innocent" people around (scary for the anti-gun folk, right?). There was a guy that stuttered real bad once, but besides that none of the people ive delt with would come across as weird in any way and only one guy (the guy who wanted the elCamino....) was what i would call an obvious redneck.

I add that last paragraph because i think as Smoot and Mredskins noted ealier it is in many ways a cultural thing. To the guys selling guns with their kid next to them, it didnt come across as not normal in any way whatsoever.

I was brought up in a very anti-gun household and the first time i bought a gun via private party it was very strange and uncomfortable; however, now it doesnt seem odd or frightening to me at all. I think many of us (myself included) were raised in households without guns around and were taught to fear them, not respect and appreciate them. With that in mind perhaps the only gun control we need is hands on experience in our public schools?