When is Enough ,Enough?

[MTK]

We should be listening to the science. Call it fear mongering, but shit could be getting real sooner rather than later, and once it does there's no going back.

Planet at Risk of Heading Towards Apocalyptic, Irreversible ‘Hothouse Earth’ State

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by Giantone

Seriously your defense is becuase the rest of the World isn't doing it..........we shouldn't do it either????

No, my point is that if the world as a whole is pouring 36GT into the atmosphere, a policy change affecting less than 0.2GT isn't going to be what dooms or saves our grandkids. Saying that it will is a narrative put forth to enact more invasive regulations.

Pleas explain , what are "natural strides" that people are making becuase the want to not have to.
...

See this is the way the free market works, as resources have scarcity they cost more. As resources are made available, scientists and other evil big businesses look for the best way to make money. IF the concept of saving the world is marketable, and it is, companies will move to improve their positions in those markets. It won't happen as quickly as brute force govt regulations, but as I said, the US regulations aren't going to significantly change the global situation, at least not at the cost of individual freedom.

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by MTK

We should be listening to the science. Call it fear mongering, but shit could be getting real sooner rather than later, and once it does there's no going back.

Planet at Risk of Heading Towards Apocalyptic, Irreversible ‘Hothouse Earth’ State

From your article

Cutting carbon emissions to limit climate change to 2 degrees C, as proposed in the Paris climate agreement, won’t be enough to avoid a “Hothouse Earth,” said co-author Johan Rockström, executive director of Stockholm Resilience Centre.

The reality is that global temperatures aren’t driven by human emissions of carbon alone, says Rockström—natural systems such as forests and oceans also play a major role.

A lot of this is already happening without leadership from national governments. Individuals, communities, and companies understand these are the things we need to do and we are starting to limit our impacts on the Earth, Richardson told Motherboard.

I can agree with "SCIENCE" and still say that invasive government regulations are not the way to achieve anything, even in global climate change debates.

But liberals, in my opinion, must demonize their opponents and portray their way as the only way, because their policies when enacted have repeatedly and consistently failed to achieve most of their supposed goals.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

From your article






I can agree with "SCIENCE" and still say that invasive government regulations are not the way to achieve anything, even in global climate change debates.

But liberals, in my opinion, must demonize their opponents and portray their way as the only way, because their policies when enacted have repeatedly and consistently failed to achieve most of their supposed goals.

I don't know, I tend to like the idea of protecting and preserving national parklands, stopping illegal dumping into our oceans and rivers, reducing air pollution, and protecting endangered species, to name a few. I'd say policies enacted for all of the above are important and have achieved something.

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by MTK

I don't know, I tend to like the idea of protecting and preserving national parklands, stopping illegal dumping into our oceans and rivers, reducing air pollution, and protecting endangered species, to name a few. I'd say policies enacted for all of the above are important and have achieved something.

you didn't highlight the word invasive.

It's like the old joke, would a lady have sex with me for $1 million, she says sure. What about $20, she says what am i a whore??

I think, a super majority of us citizens would agree that all those things are important, the difference comes down to where the line ought to be drawn. But often instead of rational debate, it becomes a - you want to destroy the earth and all that is within it narrative.

NO ONE WANTS TO DESTROY THE WORLD (except the guy from GI Joe Retaliation)

[mooby]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

you didn't highlight the word invasive.

It's like the old joke, would a lady have sex with me for $1 million, she says sure. What about $20, she says what am i a whore??

I think, a super majority of us citizens would agree that all those things are important, the difference comes down to where the line ought to be drawn. But often instead of rational debate, it becomes a - you want to destroy the earth and all that is within it narrative.

NO ONE WANTS TO DESTROY THE WORLD (except the guy from GI Joe Retaliation)

I don't think any living person wants to destroy the world. However if you're a person or a business whose profit is held back by an environmental regulation, no matter how good it is, you'd definitely like to see that regulation removed so you can make more money.

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by mooby

I don't think any living person wants to destroy the world. However if you're a person or a business whose profit is held back by an environmental regulation, no matter how good it is, you'd definitely like to see that regulation removed so you can make more money.

And that's where sane discussions ought to be able to had about regulatory oversight. But again, that's not the discussion that is usually had by us. Even in this thread mentioning cancelling of the fuel standards by Trump, it is greeted with a cry that the grandchildren will not have a safe world, or we must trust the scientists, even when reasonable (imo) stats show that those standards have a near negligible effect on the world wide output (.2Gt vs 36Gt or 1/2 of 1% of the total).

I don't know the solution, because honestly when you are greeted by the world will die, or your just ignorant, comments it's hard to try to continue the debate about where reasonable standards should be.

IF we could have zero emissions and not affect liberty, economic growth, and individual choice, I would be all for it, but life IS tradeoffs. Where does one end and the other begin. If you only look at SCIENCE, you miss the need for individual and corporate growth. If you only look at corporate growth you miss the need for SCIENCE.

(by the way, the SCIENCE is a nod to Penguins of Madagascar, and Kowalski in particular)

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by mooby

I don't think any living person wants to destroy the world. However if you're a person or a business whose profit is held back by an environmental regulation, no matter how good it is, you'd definitely like to see that regulation removed so you can make more money.

On the other hand, whole segments of the economy are being created by market forces based on the concerns over global climate. When the Prius was introduced the following happened:

Incredibly, first-month orders defied all projections and sales reached 180,000 (against a target of 10,000) while waiting lists stretched to seven months.

and firms are looking more and more at that segment.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/...430?src=recsys

To G1's reply, in a free market there is always a cling to the "old ways" but as the new becomes the norm they either die or progress. No one is saying that the corporations should be allowed outside the laws on the books

[Giantone]

This is absurd ,please defend this to me?

https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/23/world...ntl/index.html


https://phys.org/news/2018-03-pacifi...mp-larger.html





And lets not forget the Drinking water in Flint Mi.


https://www.motherjones.com/environm...s-complicated/


https://www.theguardian.com/news/201...ned-its-people




Yes dumping the EPA is good for business's and trump wants that at any cost including risking the lives of all Americans but hey fuckem....we're winning!

[Giantone]

Originally Posted by MTK

We should be listening to the science. Call it fear mongering, but shit could be getting real sooner rather than later, and once it does there's no going back.

Planet at Risk of Heading Towards Apocalyptic, Irreversible ‘Hothouse Earth’ State

MTK , I agree with you but the trump cult will never admit defeat on any issue no matter how many people die becuase of it.

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by Giantone

This is absurd ,please defend this to me?

https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/23/world...ntl/index.html


https://phys.org/news/2018-03-pacifi...mp-larger.html

not defending it, looks like there are some plans in place to fix a problem that has identified. Just don't take away these kids' homes

And lets not forget the Drinking water in Flint Mi.


https://www.motherjones.com/environm...s-complicated/


https://www.theguardian.com/news/201...ned-its-people




Yes dumping the EPA is good for business's and trump wants that at any cost including risking the lives of all Americans but hey fuckem....we're winning!

YES Let's not forget Flint Michigan. A city that relied on the Democratic party, and they failed them.
I love how Flint is raised by you as a call against Trump, Hypocrisy thy name is G1:

Flint has a long history of political dominance by the Democratic party. Its current mayor is a Democrat; so was her predecessor; the mayor before him, Don Williamson, was a career criminal (he did time for various scams some years back) and a Democrat who resigned under threat of recall; his immediate predecessor, Democrat James W. Rutherford, is a longtime politico and was elected to finish out the term of Woodrow Stanley, who was recalled because of the financial state in which he left the city. Stanley was in effect replaced by — Democrat — Darnell Earley, former director of the Democratic legislative caucus’s research-and-policy team, who became the city’s emergency manager. Earley is the Democrat the other Democrats blame for changing the city’s water supply, and the Michigan Democratic party has demanded his termination.

They relied on the government bureacracy, and which under Pres. Obama failed them too.

Overall, the report found EPA “did not implement management controls that could have facilitated more informed and proactive decision-making. The federal response was delayed, in part, because the EPA did not establish clear roles and responsibilities, risk-assessment procedures, effective communication and proactive oversight tools.”

(but Trump is killing the EPA)
Government bureacracies don't by themselves fix issues, and the more invasive the regulations the more that important items get missed.

Another way of saying it, is you don't fix bureacracy by adding more bureacracy, you fix it by paring it back, seeing what parts are working and then building from them IF needed.

Flint was a tragedy symbolic of reliance on Democratic leadership and ideals. The Democratic party has failed the inner cities like baltimore, chicago, detroit over and over again, but they sound smooth, like the snake oil salesmen of old. And somehow have sold that poison to a substantial portion of our country.

Who saved Flint, US volunteers, people who heard the disaster and sent money and supplies.

Walmart, in partnership with Pepsi , Coca-Cola, and Nestle, announced Tuesday that it will deliver 6.5 million bottles of water to public school kids in the city, the largest single donation to the disaster relief efforts yet. That’s in addition to hundreds of thousands of bottles the retail giant has already donated.

Sean Combs and Mark Wahlberg‘s bottled water company pledged to give 1 million bottles. This includes help from hip hop artists Wiz Khalifa and Detroit-native Eminem.
Pearl Jam gave $300,000 total (the rockers pledged $125,000 and collected an additional $175,000.)
Nestle, in addition to aiding Walmart, has given over 190,000 bottles of water since October.
Cher partnered with Icelandic Glacial to donate 181,440 bottles of water, according to Billboard.
Detroit Lions players have donated upwards of 94,000 bottles, led by defensive end Ezekiel Ansah, according to Dave Birkett of the Detroit Free Press.
Detroit Lions charities have donated an undisclosed amount of money to the United Way to aid in the transportation of water.

It's also a symbol of US citizens ability to reach down and help when needed

[Giantone]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

not defending it, looks like there are some plans in place to fix a problem that has identified. Just don't take away these kids' homes






YES Let's not forget Flint Michigan. A city that relied on the Democratic party, and they failed them.
I love how Flint is raised by you as a call against Trump, Hypocrisy thy name is G1:



They relied on the government bureacracy, and which under Pres. Obama failed them too.


(but Trump is killing the EPA)
Government bureacracies don't by themselves fix issues, and the more invasive the regulations the more that important items get missed.

Another way of saying it, is you don't fix bureacracy by adding more bureacracy, you fix it by paring it back, seeing what parts are working and then building from them IF needed.

Flint was a tragedy symbolic of reliance on Democratic leadership and ideals. The Democratic party has failed the inner cities like baltimore, chicago, detroit over and over again, but they sound smooth, like the snake oil salesmen of old. And somehow have sold that poison to a substantial portion of our country.

Who saved Flint, US volunteers, people who heard the disaster and sent money and supplies.


It's also a symbol of US citizens ability to reach down and help when needed

Of course you are shot down with trump dumping the EPA and dumping regulations and you blame Obama. The State of Michigan failed and the goverment of Flint failed the city but yes Obama was president but he isn't closing up the EPA as an answer ,is he?

[Giantone]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

not defending it, looks like there are some plans in place to fix a problem that has identified. Just don't take away these kids' homes

Typical trump cult member making a joke out of a major disaster but fuck it it doesn't affect you does it?



In your response about Flint I see you would rather have regular citizens take care of the problems instead of the goverment fixing it like they should .dump the EPA and fuck America right Cred?That seems to be your motto.

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by Giantone

Typical trump cult member making a joke out of a major disaster but fuck it it doesn't affect you does it?



In your response about Flint I see you would rather have regular citizens take care of the problems instead of the goverment fixing it like they should .dump the EPA and fuck America right Cred?That seems to be your motto.

I would rather have a limited federal government and responsible local governments not corrupt ones like the one in Flint. Yes that is my answer.

And if you read my previous answer i said the way to fix govt like the epa is to pare it down, like pruning a tree, keeping parts that are healthy and necessary, and getting rid of unnecessary, parts, ubhealthy parts, and parts that are growing the wrong way.

As for my motto, you are, as usual, wrong. I want to see the US thrive like the beacon of freedom and individusl liberty we have always been, and for every citizen born or naturalized to have the best opportunity to use their God given talents to find their path in this life and our great country. Sorry your limitations seem to prevent you from seeing and understanding that.

[Giantone]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

I would rather have a limited federal government and responsible local governments not corrupt ones like the one in Flint. Yes that is my answer.

And if you read my previous answer i said the way to fix govt like the epa is to pare it down, like pruning a tree, keeping parts that are healthy and necessary, and getting rid of unnecessary, parts, ubhealthy parts, and parts that are growing the wrong way.

As for my motto, you are, as usual, wrong. I want to see the US thrive like the beacon of freedom and individusl liberty we have always been, and for every citizen born or naturalized to have the best opportunity to use their God given talents to find their path in this life and our great country. Sorry your limitations seem to prevent you from seeing and understanding that.

It's your postings that fuel my opinion on your motto .Own them, stop your spin.