Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?

[Leader In Sports]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

Love Monk. But there were years you could have legitimately made the argument-with guys like Charlie Brown and Gary Clark-that Monk wasn't even the best WR on his team. In his prime, you never doubted that with Jerry Rice.

One of my friends who played with the skins in that era always has said that Downtown Charlie Brown had the talent, ability & drive to have the career Monk had. He says it had a lot to do with the politics of teams. The qualifier of this is the guy also LOVES Monk and was in no way disrespecting him.

[Ruhskins]

Originally Posted by freddyg12

That was part of it, but that's no excuse for throwing your qb under the bus. McNabb didn't sign his checks. Seems like you're finding excuses for his behavior.

My answer would be no, TO would bring short term success & long-term stress.

But McNabb also made it a point to say that they didn't need TO. Now, I don't think a QB should say "we're screwed" or something along those lines. But TO was the reason they were so dominant that year, and they shouldn't have been so dismissive about him being hurt.

Also, had the Eagles paid TO what he wanted, they could have easily made another trip to the SB the next season (and prob win the whole thing).

As SS said:

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

T.O. probably spoke the truth more often than not. Unfortunately, speaking the truth does not often make a good teammate

[MTK]

Originally Posted by Alvin Walton

You don't consider Art Monk a great wide receiver?

Great as in the same class as Rice? No.

What's wrong with saying he was very good?

[MTK]

Originally Posted by Leader In Sports

They also look a lot at post season production. What has TO done there? I don't feel like digging, but he only had success early with the 49ers and then the Eagles. I remember he played injured in the Super Bowl loss. Did he get injured in the playoffs or the regular season that year?

Overall, I don't think he has a lot to stand on for the post season (again, an impression without looking it up).

Well, for starters he had "the catch" - 49ers vs. the Pack in '98.

And in the Super Bowl against the Patriots he had 9-122 on an ankle he broke about a month before.

He had some big playoff moments.

[freddyg12]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

Love Monk. But there were years you could have legitimately made the argument-with guys like Charlie Brown and Gary Clark-that Monk wasn't even the best WR on his team. In his prime, you never doubted that with Jerry Rice.

Smootsmack channeling Peter King! King said that when he covered those great 80s giants teams, the players said they weren't afraid of Monk, but they were of Clark cause he made big plays.

[Leader In Sports]

Originally Posted by Mattyk

Well, for starters he had "the catch" - 49ers vs. the Pack in '98.

And in the Super Bowl against the Patriots he had 9-122 on an ankle he broke about a month before.

He had some big playoff moments.

I don't think those 2 will get him in the HOF. I am willing to put money he won't be first ballot and am not 100% about him getting in.

Do you see Steve McNair in the HOF? He was a co-MVP one year. I would put McNair over T.O. any day.

What about Roman Gabriel? He was the NFL MVP and Comeback Player of the Year. We could go on - Randall Cunningham, Terrell Davis, Roger Craig, Phil Simms, etc, etc.

There are lots of guys that are very good. T.O. was/is a great individual player, but I don't see him contributing to a team. After all, football is a team sport.

[dmek25]

Originally Posted by freddyg12

That was part of it, but that's no excuse for throwing your qb under the bus. McNabb didn't sign his checks.seems like you're finding excuses for his behavior.

My answer would be no, TO would bring short term success & long-term stress.

i have always believed that Owens is a first class ass. all im saying is that if the eagles front office would have handled him a little different, Owens and Mcnabb would have been a force to be dealt with for many seasons. he has been blessed with superior talent, and can out work almost anyone on the practice field. is he a cancer? most of the time. but remember this, players win games

[dmek25]

Originally Posted by Leader In Sports

I don't think those 2 will get him in the HOF. I am willing to put money he won't be first ballot and am not 100% about him getting in.

Do you see Steve McNair in the HOF? He was a co-MVP one year. I would put McNair over T.O. any day.

What about Roman Gabriel? He was the NFL MVP and Comeback Player of the Year. We could go on - Randall Cunningham, Terrell Davis, Roger Craig, Phil Simms, etc, etc.

There are lots of guys that are very good. T.O. was/is a great individual player, but I don't see him contributing to a team. After all, football is a team sport.

there goes any of your cred. you would honestly put Mcnair in and not Owens?

[dmek25]

i cant believe the most posts i have had in over 2 years, and its defending TO

[freddyg12]

Originally Posted by Ruhskins

But McNabb also made it a point to say that they didn't need TO. Now, I don't think a QB should say "we're screwed" or something along those lines. But TO was the reason they were so dominant that year, and they shouldn't have been so dismissive about him being hurt.

Also, had the Eagles paid TO what he wanted, they could have easily made another trip to the SB the next season (and prob win the whole thing).

As SS said:

He was signed to a 7-year deal & only played 1 year before complaining & asking for a new deal. When he didn't get what he wanted, he began the childish antics, working out in his driveway, dissing McNabb & others, etc. Sure the Eagles got him for less than he could've gotten elsewhere, but remember that he & Drew R. orchestrated the trade after he was initially sent to Baltimore.

[Monkeydad]

Originally Posted by Alvin Walton

You don't consider Art Monk a great wide receiver?

He WAS great. However, Rice was the GOAT. You just can't compare ANYONE with Rice. This can be said without denigrating or disrespecting Monk or anyone else you're talking about.

It's like talking about Michael Jordan in basketball. Yes, there WERE other great players, but they're not Mike.

Rice vs. Monk is about equivalent to talking about Jordan vs. Dr. J.

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by hooskins

first doesnt read well. he said almost. and if you are implying winning a superbowl is a criteria for the HOF, then they really made a big mistake enrolling marino.

No I read just fine. If you read this a knew TO never won a SB then you knew what he was saying if you did not know you could take that either way.

"few receivers I can think of that almost single handily (or as close to single handily one can be in football) won his team a Super Bowl"

[Leader In Sports]

Originally Posted by dmek25

there goes any of your cred. you would honestly put Mcnair in and not Owens?

Look what McNair contributed to the TEAM. Rice was a team player, Owens plays for himself. I don't think Owens made the TEAM better - just look at Dallas with and without him.

[Ruhskins]

Originally Posted by freddyg12

He was signed to a 7-year deal & only played 1 year before complaining & asking for a new deal. When he didn't get what he wanted, he began the childish antics, working out in his driveway, dissing McNabb & others, etc. Sure the Eagles got him for less than he could've gotten elsewhere, but remember that he & Drew R. orchestrated the trade after he was initially sent to Baltimore.

I don't see what's wrong about getting a raise. How he went about it was terrible, but the 2004 Eagles were dominant with McNabb and TO.

I think TO was probably worst with the Cowboys, but they were also pretty dysfunctional.

I can tell you two other players that have done worst (similar) things than TO:
- Haynesworth's saga with the Redskins
- R. Moss giving up at the end of his time in Minny and the whole time he was with the Raiders

I don't think anyone will defend what TO did, but I just don't think those actions are terrible enough to keep him out of the HOF.

[dmek25]

Originally Posted by Leader In Sports

Look what McNair contributed to the TEAM. Rice was a team player, Owens plays for himself. I don't think Owens made the TEAM better - just look at Dallas with and without him.

au contraire, mon fraire. i seem to remember on more then one occasion Rice bitching and moaning about not getting the ball enough. or the niners not running enough plays for him. the same thing people are chastising Owens for