Are we the Detroit Lions?

[skinsguy]

Originally Posted by SKINSnCANES

skinsguy, and really myself and any other skin fan really, doesnt want to admit it but for the last 15 years we have a lot in common with the lions. we have both sucked. we both had a fwe moment hear and there, but we both also have lots of free agent and draft pick busts.

yes any team has busts, but the skins and matt millen get a lot of publicity for what they do and what they have done that hasnt worked. '

matt millen might be a genious for drafting johnson with the second pick in the draft, but he still looks like an idiot becuase its the 4th one. just like if dan snyder signs any free agent hes goign to get critized saying he doesnt use the draft or say that he over paid.

First of all, I can speak for myself, thank you very much. Secondly, to imply that I, nor any other Redskins fan on this board, doesn't want to admit that this team has had some hard times is a foolish statement to make. We just don't like to wallow in the self pity that seems to plague a few so called fans on this board. We don't like to waste time whining and complaining about every move this franchise has made, while completely ignoring what good things have come from this franchise. And oh yes, there are those and you know who you are who only come here to crap on the team, and when things are going right, you are nowhere to be found.

That is what makes me so ashamed at fans in Redskins Nation. When we actually start arguing over why we should be compared to the Lions, something is very wrong. I've seen posts where people want Snyder dead, they hate Fassel, they hate Gibbs, the Redskins are a laughing stock of the NFL.....this all coming from REDSKINS fans. I just don't get it.

[skinsguy]

Originally Posted by DynamiteRave

True.

I just hate how some people always wanna kick a dog when it's down.

Exactly, while using the "I'm a realist" excuse to do the kicking.

[DynamiteRave]

Originally Posted by skinsguy

First of all, I can speak for myself, thank you very much. Secondly, to imply that I, nor any other Redskins fan on this board, doesn't want to admit that this team has had some hard times is a foolish statement to make. We just don't like to wallow in the self pity that seems to plague a few so called fans on this board. We don't like to waste time whining and complaining about every move this franchise has made, while completely ignoring what good things have come from this franchise. And oh yes, there are those and you know who you are who only come here to crap on the team, and when things are going right, you are nowhere to be found.

That is what makes me so ashamed at fans in Redskins Nation. When we actually start arguing over why we should be compared to the Lions, something is very wrong. I've seen posts where people want Snyder dead, they hate Fassel, they hate Gibbs, the Redskins are a laughing stock of the NFL.....this all coming from REDSKINS fans. I just don't get it.

Finally a voice of reason.

Hallelujah.

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

I chose 1993 because that was the first year after Gibbs left -- the beginning of the 'Dark Ages' for Redskins fan, if you will.

Since then, only the Bengals, Lions, and Cardinals have an overall record worse than Washington.

Do we really want to see how we rank among the other teams since, say ... 2002?

Does it piss me off that we've been in the "Dark Ages" this long, absolutely. But let's put this into some context. We were spoiled by Gibbs & Bethard in the 80s. JKC would spend whatever it took to win. Back then with no Free Agency or salary cap that was fine, but it takes time to adjust to losing a HoF coach and change the way you operate when you used to just outbid for the best players. Also consider JKC was in his twilight years. JKC dies and the franchise is in turmoil until the final purchase by Snyder in May 1999. Snyder made some bonehead moves, but finally had enough sense to beg Gibbs to come back. Gibbs obviously didn't bring us another SB, but 2 playoff appearances in his 4 years are a lot better than the previous 10 years.

I'm sure you don't need a history lesson and you already know this stuff but, we need to look at more than just our record since 1993 and consider the entire situation. Now the roster is much more talented and the franchise far more stable and positioned to win than in 2003. Why can't we be the Steelers, Cowboys, Packers, Chargers, Saints (2006), Jets (2006) and win with a new coaching staff. Zorn is well respected, Blanche is well respected, Campbell in the F.O. is well respected.

I believe a lot of folks here will be eating some serious crow when we have a solid season next year. If one of the mods doesn't, I will start a thread within a couple of days of the new HC being hired where everyone can make their predictions for next season and state why. The thread will be available for all to see and the "humble pie" will certainly be on the menu for many here. IMO we will be at least 9-7 as long as we make a solid HC hire, if I'm wrong I will be first line for my share.

[Beemnseven]

Originally Posted by skinsguy

First of all, I can speak for myself, thank you very much. Secondly, to imply that I, nor any other Redskins fan on this board, doesn't want to admit that this team has had some hard times is a foolish statement to make. We just don't like to wallow in the self pity that seems to plague a few so called fans on this board. We don't like to waste time whining and complaining about every move this franchise has made, while completely ignoring what good things have come from this franchise. And oh yes, there are those and you know who you are who only come here to crap on the team, and when things are going right, you are nowhere to be found.

That is what makes me so ashamed at fans in Redskins Nation. When we actually start arguing over why we should be compared to the Lions, something is very wrong. I've seen posts where people want Snyder dead, they hate Fassel, they hate Gibbs, the Redskins are a laughing stock of the NFL.....this all coming from REDSKINS fans. I just don't get it.

First of all, you need to stop thinking of those people as "Redskins Fans" and acknowledge them as something far more basic: Assholes. Assholes who could possibly need professional help.

Secondly, the point of this thread is to objectively examine the success of this franchise when compared to other teams that have experienced "hard times." Every franchise goes through a period like this. The Patriots are a good example. Younger fans might not remember the times when they were a team that got trampled year in and year out. Now certainly, the Redskins aren't at that level. From '93 to '95 was their worst period in modern times. Since then, it's been a modest rise to mediocrity.

Don't think that my saying that implies that I'm a "so-called" fan. I'm simply pointing out the facts. It's been some lean times around these parts. And the sting of watching Joe Gibbs walk away for the absolute last time without being able to take us back to the Promised Land is especially hard. Add that to what many perceive to be a meddling owner who has no track record of success at running a football team returning to his old ways and ... well, you get the point.

Some people, like you, have great difficulty in admitting that our team has fallen to the depths of mediocrity over the last 15 years or so, and teetered on the edge of far worse than that in some seasons.

I am not one of those people. I'm a fan, and will remain so for as long as I live. But I will continue to point out the obvious, and give blistering opinions on those who I believe have fostered the demise of this team ever since they've taken over.

And I hope to God one day I'm proven wrong.

[Beemnseven]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

Does it piss me off that we've been in the "Dark Ages" this long, absolutely. But let's put this into some context. We were spoiled by Gibbs & Bethard in the 80s. JKC would spend whatever it took to win. Back then with no Free Agency or salary cap that was fine, but it takes time to adjust to losing a HoF coach and change the way you operate when you used to just outbid for the best players. Also consider JKC was in his twilight years. JKC dies and the franchise is in turmoil until the final purchase by Snyder in May 1999. Snyder made some bonehead moves, but finally had enough sense to beg Gibbs to come back. Gibbs obviously didn't bring us another SB, but 2 playoff appearances in his 4 years are a lot better than the previous 10 years.

In the old days, with Beathard and Gibbs and JKC, we had the perfect formula and knew how to work it with precision. But with the dawn of the 'new era', the disturbing thing is that some teams have been able to figure out and adjust to the new system with free agency and the cap, while this franchise isn't quite there yet.

Some will say that we've got the cap licked. I say, not so fast.

To me, there are three categories that a team can fall into with regard to the salary cap --

-- they can manipulate it brilliantly, like the Colts, Patriots, and Steelers,

-- they can manage it, stay afloat but not really get anywhere, like the Redskins

-- or they can fall into "Cap Hell" like the 49ers of the late 90's.

We are not the only ones who are having trouble with the learning curve of the new era. But I sure as hell am ready to get someone in here who can figure it out. It is my contention that those people are not named Cerrato and Snyder.

[skinsguy]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

First of all, you need to stop thinking of those people as "Redskins Fans" and acknowledge them as something far more basic: Assholes. Assholes who could possibly need professional help.

Secondly, the point of this thread is to objectively examine the success of this franchise when compared to other teams that have experienced "hard times." Every franchise goes through a period like this. The Patriots are a good example. Younger fans might not remember the times when they were a team that got trampled year in and year out. Now certainly, the Redskins aren't at that level. From '93 to '95 was their worst period in modern times. Since then, it's been a modest rise to mediocrity.

Don't think that my saying that implies that I'm a "so-called" fan. I'm simply pointing out the facts. It's been some lean times around these parts. And the sting of watching Joe Gibbs walk away for the absolute last time without being able to take us back to the Promised Land is especially hard. Add that to what many perceive to be a meddling owner who has no track record of success at running a football team returning to his old ways and ... well, you get the point.

Some people, like you, have great difficulty in admitting that our team has fallen to the depths of mediocrity over the last 15 years or so, and teetered on the edge of far worse than that in some seasons.

I am not one of those people. I'm a fan, and will remain so for as long as I live. But I will continue to point out the obvious, and give blistering opinions on those who I believe have fostered the demise of this team ever since they've taken over.

And I hope to God one day I'm proven wrong.

I have no idea where you get off by saying that. That's a pretty dumb statement to make. I have referenced time and time again the difficult seasons we've had. So, don't make any assumptions on what I can and cannot admit. As much as people like you like to make "blistering opinions" on things, people like me will continue to look at things through another point of view that gives benefit of the doubt on all sides. When I see this team go 4-12 next season, then I'll be the first to say, "wow we suck." However, likewise, if we go 12-4 next season, I'll be the first to say, "the fans truly don't know what the heck they're talking about." And again, those fans will know exactly who they are.

[Beemnseven]

Originally Posted by skinsguy

I have no idea where you get off by saying that. That's a pretty dumb statement to make. I have referenced time and time again the difficult seasons we've had. So, don't make any assumptions on what I can and cannot admit. As much as people like you like to make "blistering opinions" on things, people like me will continue to look at things through another point of view that gives benefit of the doubt on all sides. When I see this team go 4-12 next season, then I'll be the first to say, "wow we suck." However, likewise, if we go 12-4 next season, I'll be the first to say, "the fans truly don't know what the heck they're talking about." And again, those fans will know exactly who they are.

Hmm. I must have missed those references. Weren't you the one who recently had a tagline that said, "I happen to like Kool Aid, and will drink it whenever I choose" ??

Sorry if I have trouble linking you with the objective crowd.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

The disturbing thing is that some teams have been able to figure out and adjust to the new system with free agency and the cap.

Some will say that we've got the cap licked. I say, not so fast.

To me, there are three categories that team can fall into with regard to the salary cap --

-- they can manipulate it brilliantly, like the Colts, Patriots, and Steelers,

-- they can manage it, stay afloat but not really get anywhere, like the Redskins

-- or they can fall into "Cap Hell" like the 49ers of the late 90's.

We are not the only ones who are having trouble with the learning curve of the new era. But I sure as hell am ready to get someone in here who can figure it out.

What the Redskins are great at is forecasting long term market trends, and knowing exactly when the right time to buy is. Think about it:

We had a big free agency splurge in 2004 that built the defense of the Gibbs era. Those contracts were set to bite us in the balls in 2006, but we timed it up perfectly with the new CBA contract and the cap hell never came.

In 2006, we foresaw that the market was going to spike a year from then and decided to free agent splurge at the relatively reduced price as opposed to buying in the insane market that now exists in free agency.

Of course, the big issue in 2006 is not that we spent the money--those deals look excellent now by comparison, it's that we spent the money in part on a pair of god-awful football players. Can you imagine what this team would be if Archuleta and Lloyd, we bought say: Chris Hope and Joe Jurevicius?

The Pro Personnel scout we have has done a pretty crappy job, but that's why Scott Campbell got the promotion and he did not.

[Beemnseven]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

What the Redskins are great at is forecasting long term market trends, and knowing exactly when the right time to buy is. Think about it:
We had a big free agency splurge in 2004 that built the defense of the Gibbs era. Those contracts were set to bite us in the balls in 2006, but we timed it up perfectly with the new CBA contract and the cap hell never came.

In 2006, we foresaw that the market was going to spike a year from then and decided to free agent splurge at the relatively reduced price as opposed to buying in the insane market that now exists in free agency.

Of course, the big issue in 2006 is not that we spent the money--those deals look excellent now by comparison, it's that we spent the money in part on a pair of god-awful football players. Can you imagine what this team would be if Archuleta and Lloyd, we bought say: Chris Hope and Joe Jurevicius?

The Pro Personnel scout we have has done a pretty crappy job, but that's why Scott Campbell got the promotion and he did not.

Is it really that they're good at "forecasting market trends," or is it more simply that some seasons we're in position to make a few purchases, and some seasons we're not?

Otherwise, it all seems to secure the theory that our front office is indeed good at keeping us from absolute Cap Hell, but that we haven't joined the elite group at the top that knows how to really work it.

[SouperMeister]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

What the Redskins are great at is forecasting long term market trends, and knowing exactly when the right time to buy is. Think about it:

We had a big free agency splurge in 2004 that built the defense of the Gibbs era. Those contracts were set to bite us in the balls in 2006, but we timed it up perfectly with the new CBA contract and the cap hell never came.

In 2006, we foresaw that the market was going to spike a year from then and decided to free agent splurge at the relatively reduced price as opposed to buying in the insane market that now exists in free agency.

Of course, the big issue in 2006 is not that we spent the money--those deals look excellent now by comparison, it's that we spent the money in part on a pair of god-awful football players. Can you imagine what this team would be if Archuleta and Lloyd, we bought say: Chris Hope and Joe Jurevicius?

The Pro Personnel scout we have has done a pretty crappy job, but that's why Scott Campbell got the promotion and he did not.

Amen GTripp - it's about time we recognized that our pro scouting has been spotty. I'm hopeful that Scott Campbell will yield dividends in both the draft AND with bargain FA signings this offseason.

[KLHJ2]

Originally Posted by skinsguy

First of all, I can speak for myself, thank you very much. Secondly, to imply that I, nor any other Redskins fan on this board, doesn't want to admit that this team has had some hard times is a foolish statement to make. We just don't like to wallow in the self pity that seems to plague a few so called fans on this board. We don't like to waste time whining and complaining about every move this franchise has made, while completely ignoring what good things have come from this franchise. And oh yes, there are those and you know who you are who only come here to crap on the team, and when things are going right, you are nowhere to be found.

That is what makes me so ashamed at fans in Redskins Nation. When we actually start arguing over why we should be compared to the Lions, something is very wrong. I've seen posts where people want Snyder dead, they hate Fassel, they hate Gibbs, the Redskins are a laughing stock of the NFL.....this all coming from REDSKINS fans. I just don't get it.

To answer your initial question, no we are not the Detroit Lions. We have 3 SB victories and have made the playoffs twice in the past 3 seasons. we are slightly above average as far as organizations are concerned at the moment. All time, we are one of the best.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

Is it really that they're good at "forecasting market trends," or is it more simply that some seasons we're in position to make a few purchases, and some seasons we're not?

Otherwise, it all seems to secure the theory that our front office is indeed good at keeping us from absolute Cap Hell, but that we haven't joined the elite group at the top that knows how to really work it.

Well, I can't rule out that it's been blind luck, but I'm giving the benefit of the doubt, the timing of our deals have been tremendous.

We do it differently than everyone else. We take advantage of that cash over cap concept, and we find ways to invest more into our football team than the cap is designed to allow.

Again, the separate issue here is that we spend potentially "value" contracts on very overrated players. What I'm saying is as soon as this stops, you'll see the Redskins join the elite teams in terms of year to year sustainability.

[sancho2613]

Originally Posted by skinsguy

And here's my point in how ridiculous it is to compare the Lions to the Redskins. The Redskins have had 15 playoff wins since 1980, 5 Conference Championship appearances, 4 Conference Championships, 4 Super Bowl appearances, 3 Super Bowl victories.

The Lions have had only one playoff win since 1980, 1 conference Championship appearance, 8 losses all in the wild card round, no Super Bowl appearances. Comparing just the last 10 years, the Lions had two playoff appearances, the Redskins had three. The Lions didn't win in either one of those playoff appearances, the Redskins have two victories.

There still cannot rightfully be any comparison between the two franchises.

I'd have to agree with you I don't think we can compare the Lions to the Redskins... wow this has been a fun thread to read though lots of good arguments (might need some of the thread police before things get out of hand ...lol)

[skinsguy]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

Hmm. I must have missed those references. Weren't you the one who recently had a tagline that said, "I happen to like Kool Aid, and will drink it whenever I choose" ??

Sorry if I have trouble linking you with the objective crowd.

I do like kool aid, what's your point? I also like Ocean Spray and V8 Splash. Your difficulties in linking me to the "objective" crowd comes from you not paying attention.