One Of Michael Vicks Home Raided By Police

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by wilsowilso

I've changed my mind. Steve Young is of course top ten. No way is he top five

OK, I'm cool with that, but tell me, who would be the ones better than Young?

[wilsowilso]

Originally Posted by angryssg

Would you agree with most complete in all facets of the position?

Not a chance. Young was kind of a basket case. On the sideline after his only SB victory he was running around like a little bitch asking his teamates to grab the monkey off of his back. It's a pretty silly video if you have ever watched it. His big game record was not all that. Major drawback in the complete category rankings seeing as how that is the most important part of the game. Winning under pressure.

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by Redskins8588

I would like to see what Elway could have done if he was throwing to the best WR ever to play the game. Young was good but come on it wasn't all him. Throwing to Rice didn't hurt him any.

Rice once said that Young was one of the best QB's of all time and helped him acheive his lofty stats, and Young helped Rice become better. So Rice himself believes that Young made him better. I don't know if that was a humble comment or not, but Young made everyone around him better.

Also, how do you explain that after Young retired, Rice had the worst back to back seasons of his career?

[wilsowilso]

Originally Posted by jsarno

OK, I'm cool with that, but tell me, who would be the ones better than Young?

Well I need GTripp to argue for Manning, and I have Tom Brady covered so let's add Marino who's stats dominate everyone's, Elway for his five super bowl appearances and someone like Unitas or Starr or some other greats from the past just out of respect. Montana on top of course.

[Redskins8588]

Originally Posted by jsarno

Yeah, but you have to look at how many games he played, you can only produce huge numbers when you play a lot of games. Also, he went up against a dynasty in the Cowboys. For as much as we hate the Cowboys, they were studly in the 90's.
That 1 Super Bowl validated his career.

Don't forget, Steve Young was 24 before he was drafted by Tampa...he started much later than most QB's...this is because he stayed in school and got educated, unlike some of the morons the NFL employs now-a-days.

OK, it still took him 5 years to push Montana out of town. Again, Young was a good QB just not the best. Top 5 scrambling QB's I have no problem putting him there in that category. Just not the best ever...

[KLHJ2]

Originally Posted by wilsowilso

Well I need GTripp to argue for Manning, and I have Tom Brady covered so let's add Marino who's stats dominate everyone's, Elway for his five super bowl appearances and someone like Unitas or Starr or some other greats from the past just out of respect. Montana on top of course.

PLEASE DON'T I DON'T WANT TO STARE AT ALL CAPS ALL NIGHT OR MORNING, WHATEVER!

[Redskins8588]

Originally Posted by jsarno

Rice once said that Young was one of the best QB's of all time and helped him acheive his lofty stats, and Young helped Rice become better. So Rice himself believes that Young made him better. I don't know if that was a humble comment or not, but Young made everyone around him better.

Also, how do you explain that after Young retired, Rice had the worst back to back seasons of his career?

If you look you can clearly see a changing of the guard those 2 seasons you are speaking of. T.O. was on the 49ers and if you look at the stats you can see that T.O. was taking away balls that probably would have gone Rice's way.
Rice in 1999 had 830 yards, 12.4 y/r, with 5td's, T.O. in 1999 754 yards, 12.6 y/r, and 4 td's. Then in 2000 Rice had 805 yards, 10.7y/r, 7 td's, T.O. in 2000 1451 yards, 15 y/r, and 13 td's. So you can see that they were bringing in T.O. and pushing out Rice. Also, to say that Rice's decline those years had everything to do with Young and not the fact that he was getting old is crazy. At the time of Youngs retirement Rice had already started for 16 years. Father time was bound to catch up to him...

[KLHJ2]

Alright the horse is dead, next topic.

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by wilsowilso

Not a chance. Young was kind of a basket case. On the sideline after his only SB victory he was running around like a little bitch asking his teamates to grab the monkey off of his back. It's a pretty silly video if you have ever watched it. His big game record was not all that. Major drawback in the complete category ranlings seeing as how that is the most important part of the game. Winning under pressure.

WHAT? He was a 62% career post season passer, he was 9-5 (.643%) in games he played a significant part of, scored 28td's rushing and passing, and in the biggest game of his career (super bowl in 94) he threw for 325 yards and 6 (yes that's right 6) td's and no int's. (plus he ran for 49 yards)
He averaged 239 passing yards per postseason game which he played a significant part, ran for 41.07 yards per game (that's a total of 280 total yards), and had 28 total td's to only 13 int's over 14 games. That's an average of 2 td's per game, and just a hair under 1 int per game. Those are solid numbers.
Elway (for instance) played in 22 games, completion percentage of only 54.6 (that's 7.4 less than Young), averaged 226 passing yards (13 fewer than Young), 33 total tds, an average of only 1.5 to young's 2, and 21 int's (that's just a hair under 1 per game). He also averaged 21 rushing yards per game. So he averaged 247 total yards per game...that's 33 fewer yards than Young. Young was better in every catagory. Elway was 14-8 (.636%) in his postseason career. (That's .007 less than Young)
By the way, until the last 2 years of Elway's career, he was 7-8 in the postseason.

Young was one of the smartest players to ever live. And that monkey on his back was something the media placed on him and it was a show to take it off. I have to say, if I was the winning QB and MVP of a super bowl, I am going to be giddy like a little school girl.

[KLHJ2]

Originally Posted by angryssg

Alright the horse is dead, next topic.

Nevermind.

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by Redskins8588

If you look you can clearly see a changing of the guard those 2 seasons you are speaking of. T.O. was on the 49ers and if you look at the stats you can see that T.O. was taking away balls that probably would have gone Rice's way.
Rice in 1999 had 830 yards, 12.4 y/r, with 5td's, T.O. in 1999 754 yards, 12.6 y/r, and 4 td's. Then in 2000 Rice had 805 yards, 10.7y/r, 7 td's, T.O. in 2000 1451 yards, 15 y/r, and 13 td's. So you can see that they were bringing in T.O. and pushing out Rice. Also, to say that Rice's decline those years had everything to do with Young and not the fact that he was getting old is crazy. At the time of Youngs retirement Rice had already started for 16 years. Father time was bound to catch up to him...

But in 01 rice caught 83 for 1139 yards, and in 02, 92 for 1211. That doesn't sound like father time had a grasp on him.

By the way, are you going to discredit Manning because he has Harrison?

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by wilsowilso

Well I need GTripp to argue for Manning, and I have Tom Brady covered so let's add Marino who's stats dominate everyone's, Elway for his five super bowl appearances and someone like Unitas or Starr or some other greats from the past just out of respect. Montana on top of course.

Manning will be a top 5, that I have no doubt, but if he were to retire today, he's not better than Young. So I won't count him. Brady...are you kidding?
I can see why you would take Marino, he was amazing (no sb ring by the way), Elway was great, and Montana was great.
Did you know that Unitas only went to the postseason 3 times in his 18 year career. (68, 70, and 71) He only threw for 190 yards a game on average, and threw 253 career int's. Plus he had a very low 54.6 career completion percentage. No way was he better than Young.
Starr averaged only 124.8 yards passing per game in his career. Had a decent 57.4% comp percentage, but not even close to Young. AND he threw only 14 more tds' than int's in his 16 year career. (152 / 138) Starr only made the pro bowl 4 times in his career. Again, no way better than Young.

So you've only named Marino, Elway and Montana as possibly better. I could argue the point that they are not, but they are very good qb's and won't argue if they are close. This still puts Young in the top 5.

[Redskins8588]

Originally Posted by jsarno

But in 01 rice caught 83 for 1139 yards, and in 02, 92 for 1211. That doesn't sound like father time had a grasp on him.

By the way, are you going to discredit Manning because he has Harrison?

Yeah, you are right Rice did have two nice seasons after he left the 49ers. But that was it, what I am saying is when Young retired Rice had already started for 16 years in the NFL. Youngs retirement came at the time that Rice was on the backside of he career.

As for dicrediting Manning because of Harrison I am going to say no. Manning is a pure pocket passer, a total different QB than a scrambling QB. And I am not using Rice to discredit Young all I am saying is that it is a two way street with QB's and recievers. A good QB can make average WR's look good and good WR's and make average QB's look good. There is a give and take there.

[Redskins8588]

Originally Posted by jsarno

So you've only named Marino, Elway and Montana as possibly better. I could argue the point that they are not, but they are very good qb's and won't argue if they are close. This still puts Young in the top 5.

I would add Moon to that list. Even though he does not have a ring. Moon was a top QB. He is in the top 5 all time for attempts, completions, passing td's and yards. And a 9 time pro-bowler...

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by Redskins8588

Yeah, you are right Rice did have two nice seasons after he left the 49ers. But that was it, what I am saying is when Young retired Rice had already started for 16 years in the NFL. Youngs retirement came at the time that Rice was on the backside of he career.

As for dicrediting Manning because of Harrison I am going to say no. Manning is a pure pocket passer, a total different QB than a scrambling QB. And I am not using Rice to discredit Young all I am saying is that it is a two way street with QB's and recievers. A good QB can make average WR's look good and good WR's and make average QB's look good. There is a give and take there.

I won't argue with that...I absolutely agree.
There is no one out there that can replicate Youngs accuracy (comp %), overall productivity and scrambling ability. He was truly amazing. It's a shame concussions cut his career short and that he had to be a backup for so many years.
By the way, you NEVER bench a future hall of famer for a guy that never proved himself and came from one of the worst teams of all time in Tampa. So the fact that he didn't dethrone Montana doesn't mean anything to me.