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[MTK]

Originally Posted by firstdown

No he allows nature to take its course.

Didn't he create nature?

[RedskinRat]

JR, are you suggesting that religion has always championed science?

Please bear in mind that science is in its infancy still

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by Mattyk

Didn't he create nature?

Yes.

[RedskinRat]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

"More smart people agree with me, so Imust be right".

Are you comfortable when you realize that all the dumb people support your position or when it's the smart people agreeing with you?

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by RedskinRat

JR, are you suggesting that religion has always championed science?

Please bear in mind that science is in its infancy still

Has religion always "championed" science? Of course not. Duh. At the same time, as is your wont, you ask a pretty broad and oversimplified question given the course of history. I could just as easily receive the same answer if I were to ask "Do you believe religion has always persecuted science?". The real answer to the interplay between religion and science is much more nuanced and not subject to a simple "yes" or "no" answer.

For me, I believe God champions science because God is truth and science -and the scientific method - seek truth. Thus, for a religion, any religion, to serve its purpose - helping us find our path to God, it must champion science. After all, and in the context you appear to using it, "Religion" is simply a human creation that (1) presupposes the existence of a diety; and (2) attempts to assists humans in understanding that diety. Religion, in its truest form, seeks nothing but the truth and uses science as it tool to do so. Has "Religion" always been true to this ideal? Again -- Duh. No.

Ultimately, "Religion" is a human construct that is subject to corruption both temporal and spiritual. What better way for those who crave power to acheive it than by claiming to have secret knowledge and the keys to "life, universe and everything"? On the other hand, for those seeking to avoid the harsh vagaries of the world, what better opiate for the masses than a set of simple absolutes handed down from on high that give them a sense of purpose as they navigate the grey areas of their lives? Sometimes, temporal or spiritual corruption isn't needed for Religion to fail in "championing" science - sometimes well intentioned, finite, humans are just stupid and fail to see their own hypocrisy. In any of these cases, science - or any search for truth differing from the norm - will be discouraged b/c it would threaten those in power, a person's feeling of security/self-worth or their well-intentioned beliefs.

In history, religion has both championed and persecuted science. Some of the greateast periods of intellectual growth occurred under the auspices of religious growth. The European Reneassiance and subsequent Reformation in the 1400-1700's and the Islamic Golden Age of ~700-1200's flourished in and were the result of religious cultures "championing" science. I would suggest that the Jesuits have long "championed" seeking the truth through science. At the same time, history is rife with "Religion" stifling intellectual growth - the Inquisition and Wahhabism to name but two. I am sure you have the list memorized. Ulitimately, Religion is what we make of it. So, depending on the who and when, "Religion" has both championed and attacked science.

For me, orthodox (not fundamentalist or literalist) Christianity, at its core, champions science, the scientific method and an unquenchable thirst for better, deeper, more accurate knowledge of the Universe and, thus, "champions" a greater understanding of the God, the Truth or the "Great I Am". If I did not believe it to do so, I would not follow it.

[ I was an atheist throughout my 20's - in part b/c I knew to many literalist/fundamentalist Christians who insisted I stop thinking. I accepted no truth but the finite provable reality - believing no truth but scientific truth could be "real". Essentially, as so many before and since have done, I demanded "Show me the nail holes so I may place my fingers in Jesus's pierced, resurrected fingers, then maybe I will believe" - although, in truth, I probably would not even then. Ultimately, my journey to the Infinite began with a sign that said "Christ came to take your sins, not your minds." ]

So, in an vast oversimplification of the above (which in itself was a vast oversimplification of a few thousand years of theology):
Religion seeks God.
God is truth.
Science reveals truth.
Thus, for a religion to serves its purpose it must champion science.
That it often does not, is due to the inevitible fallibilty of humanity and its infinitesimble finiteness.

[DynamiteRave]

A little light heartedness



Back to your regularly scheduled debate.

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by RedskinRat

Are you comfortable when you realize that all the dumb people support your position or when it's the smart people agreeing with you?

My "comfort" is not dependent upon the intelligence of those who agree or disagree with me. Rather, regardless of where it is hidden, I seek the truth and question everyone as to the justification for their beliefs. My "comfort" comes from simply seeking the truth.

The world, and history, are rife with very smart fools and extremely intelligent evil people.

[MTK]

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by Mattyk

Didn't he create nature?

[RedskinRat]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

For me<SNIP>

There's your problem.

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by RedskinRat

There's your problem.

Wow. Just wow.

[That Guy]

the universe is infinite so that proves god?

i dunno, i can procedurally generate game content thanks to my PC (textures, objects, worlds etc) throw in a random seed, and off it goes. artificial intelligence has been "gene-seeded" from nothing (give it a problem, have it do random things, anything that helps get the goal is kept and try it again).

there's also a lot of symmetry between water/electrical/light based system (plumbing has the equivalent of a transistor for example) and rays/waves, so maybe that's just the extrapolation of micro forces/rulesets (physics/mechanics)...

[RedskinRat]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

Wow. Just wow.

Oh, come on Joe! You're saying the way religion works for you is 'X'.

Science works the same way for everyone. No need for mystics to interpret it. You may want to ask a scientist but a scientific fact is always the same.

Wow yourself.

[Alvin Walton]

What idiot thought this would be a good job for a US Marine?

[RedskinRat]

Originally Posted by Alvin Walton

What idiot thought this would be a good job for a US Marine?

If you have no respect for the Imperialist forces of the U.S. I'm sure it's a wonderful idea. Probably not the first POTUS but why can't they have an intern do it?