Does prayer work?

[htownskinfan]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

And the cynic would say...what did it accomplish?

I prayed too,did it work? I dont know,but it looks like now he might walk again,is it a miracle? we'll never no till were dead and dead men tell no tales

[EternalEnigma21]

Originally Posted by saden1

All I'm saying is give credit where it's due and like I said before when bad things happen god never gets blamed,

I think thats the hard part about faith... our perception of bad and God's is pretty different. We fear death, so genocide, massacres, terrorists attacks, etc... are horrible things to us... but everyone dies. Those with the most faith do not blame god for anything... he didn't drop the ball.

Those who are truly faithful actually thank God, even during the hardest times. I've seen people giving praise on their on children's death beds. Thats faith. I don't know if I would have that in me, but that's when true faith is shown...

[htownskinfan]

I have had quite a few major disappointments when it comes to prayer, and here are the biggest three on my mind right now:
1- I was abused by my father from when I was 2 til when I knocked his teeth out when I was 17. He would beat on me for YEARS. I prayed and prayed that it would stop, and it never did. It was not until I got violent that it stopped, then he just took it out on my sister and mother.
2- Jan. 30th, 2004 my daughter died after birth. I knew of the complications, and I prayed for several months before this incident, and I was convinced that everything would be fine. Well, it wasn't fine, not only did I lose my daughter, I almost lost my wife and she can't have children now and will forever take medication from the complications of birth.
3- I prayed before I quit my last job that He would take care of me and help me find something. I trusted in Him. I beleived that he would help me find employment and I had faith. It's been several months now, and I felt he was showing me a path to Denver...even travelled up there, spent several hundred dollars that I didn't have, and nothing has come out of it. I just had to borrow money (cc's) to make ends meet for another month. Where is He? I gotta say, my faith in prayer is not shaken, it's just about gone. What's the point of prayer if He won't be there to help?[/QUOTE]

I feel for you bro,thats some bad stuff to have to go through,I dont know if prayer works or not bit I'm going to say a prayer for you now and hope it does,hope your life gets better

[htownskinfan]

Originally Posted by Lady Brave

Where in the bible does it say God doesn't perform miracles like that? The bible is full of them. The feeding of the five thousand comes to mind. Also, I don't remember God ever saying He would stop performing miracles. As one who considers himself a christian, do you think Jesus was a magician?

Ok... to clarify how my mom knew the tank was almost empty, she took a very long wooden pole and stuck it in our underground tank. We didn't have a meter and this is how she measured how much oil she had. She had it down to a science on how long it would last. When she pulled it out there was only two inches showing at the bottom of the pole.

The Widow of Zarephath

Verse 8

BibleGateway.com - Passage*Lookup: 1 Kings 17 ;;

the prayers were answered ,was it God? who knows,but I dont believe the oil magicaly filled up in the tank,I would say the man who filled the tank decided just to fill it up and only charge you 50 bucks,his reasons,I dont know,maybe God used him as the answer to your prayers

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by saden1

Lets put it another way:

a) If two people are standing in front of a door you're about to go through and one of them holds the door open for you who do you thank?

b) You are ill, your church patrons get money together to help you out in your time of need, who deserves to be thanked?

All I'm saying is give credit where it's due and like I said before when bad things happen god never gets blamed, but when good things happen he gets all the credit. Sounds like double standard to me.

Yeah these are the exact philosophical questions I'm driving at.

Let's assume God exists and has the power to grant me the athletic ability to become a professional golfer. But I still did all the work over 5 years to actually get there. Does he get some credit? I guess so, he gave me the athletic ability. I deserve some credit too, because I took that ability and worked hard with it, and turned it into success in professional golf. Now let's say I come down with back problems. If God gave me a body athletic enough to play golf professionally, and I give him credit for that, doesn't he deserve some blame for giving me a body that couldn't hold up for the long haul in professional golf?

He doesn't get to have it both ways.

[12thMan]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

Yeah these are the exact philosophical questions I'm driving at.

Let's assume God exists and has the power to grant me the athletic ability to become a professional golfer. But I still did all the work over 5 years to actually get there. Does he get some credit? I guess so, he gave me the athletic ability. I deserve some credit too, because I took that ability and worked hard with it, and turned it into success in professional golf. Now let's say I come down with back problems. If God gave me a body athletic enough to play golf professionally, and I give him credit for that, doesn't he deserve some blame for giving me a body that couldn't hold up for the long haul in professional golf?

He doesn't get to have it both ways.

Well, who says He's trying to have it both ways? One's body breaking down or ailing has nothing to do with God's goodness or his judgement. It's simply nature taking it's course.

Bodies like everything else give way to time and wear and tear. For God to defy the natural laws that govern this side of eternity, if you will, violate the very laws that He set in motion and violate his own authority in some way. There are laws that operate in time and there are laws that operate outside of time. By time I mean, the right here and now as we all know it. And by outside of time, I'm referring to eternity. But therein lies where we agree to disagree, and this is where faith and prayer becomes and will forever remain a mystery, one has to believe in something and someone on the other side of this life. Once that notion is settled, now we're in business and the idea of prayer and faith is somewhat attainable. It really is the starting point.

Faith/Prayer is much like a coin. For it to be legitimate currency and legal tender, it has to have what we call a "head" and a "tail". Well that's how prayer works, there is a manward side; man doing his part. Flip it over and there is Godward side to it; God doing his part. For it to "spend" and be considered "legal" in our society, the coin must have two different sides or else it's considered conterfeit. And I think this is the conclusion many believers and non-believers jump to. Some say, well God should deliver me from this and that or God didn't do this or that and they conclude He doesn't exist or they doubt. And then some will say for me to get to point B in life, I must do everything and be in control of everything in order to get there. Leaving no room for God to operate or take a majority stake in their life. It takes a little of both.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by 12thMan

Well, who says He's trying to have it both ways? One's body breaking down or ailing has nothing to do with God's goodness or his judgement. It's simply nature taking it's course.

Bodies like everything else give way to time and wear and tear. For God to defy the natural laws that govern this side of eternity, if you will, violate the very laws that He set in motion and violate his own authority in some way. There are laws that operate in time and there are laws that operate outside of time. By time I mean, the right here and now as we all know it. And by outside of time, I'm referring to eternity. But therein lies where we agree to disagree, and this is where faith and prayer becomes and will forever remain a mystery, one has to believe in something and someone on the other side of this life. Once that notion is settled, now we're in business and the idea of prayer and faith is somewhat attainable. It really is the starting point.

Faith/Prayer is much like a coin. For it to be legitimate currency and legal tender, it has to have what we call a "head" and a "tail". Well that's how prayer works, there is a manward side; man doing his part. Flip it over and there is Godward side to it; God doing his part. For it to "spend" and be considered "legal" in our society, the coin must have two different sides or else it's considered conterfeit. And I think this is the conclusion many believers and non-believers jump to. Some say, well God should deliver me from this and that or God didn't do this or that and they conclude He doesn't exist or they doubt. And then some will say for me to get to point B in life, I must do everything and be in control of everything in order to get there. Leaving no room for God to operate or take a majority stake in their life. It takes a little of both.

Yeah you said it - it all starts with the assumption that there is a God in the first place. Which is all based on belief. That's what the question on prayer comes down to.

Do you believe He exists, or don't you? If you work hard to be the pro golfer, and you believe in God, and you pray to him, and you make it as a pro golfer, you're going to believe he had a hand in it.

If you don't believe in God, and you don't pray, but you work hard to be a pro golfer, and you make it as a pro golfer, you're going to believe you had everything to do with it and that God had no hand in it.

Either way, you worked hard and you made it as a pro golfer. The only role God could possibly play is to make you BELIEVE or FEEL that he had a role. But can you prove he actually had a role? No. That's at the very core of faith - you have to jump to the conclusion (aka leap of faith) that He helped you.

So at its very core, this debate over prayer comes down to one thing: do you believe in God?

[saden1]

Pharyngula: Kathy Griffin is my new hero

Edit: wrong link

[12thMan]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

Yeah you said it - it all starts with the assumption that there is a God in the first place. Which is all based on belief. That's what the question on prayer comes down to.

Do you believe He exists, or don't you? If you work hard to be the pro golfer, and you believe in God, and you pray to him, and you make it as a pro golfer, you're going to believe he had a hand in it.

If you don't believe in God, and you don't pray, but you work hard to be a pro golfer, and you make it as a pro golfer, you're going to believe you had everything to do with it and that God had no hand in it.

Either way, you worked hard and you made it as a pro golfer. The only role God could possibly play is to make you BELIEVE or FEEL that he had a role. But can you prove he actually had a role? No. That's at the very core of faith - you have to jump to the conclusion (aka leap of faith) that He helped you.

So at its very core, this debate over prayer comes down to one thing: do you believe in God?

Exactly, that's all it boils down to. And I think that's the way He intended for it to be. While prayer is practical in practice and exercise, there's really not much logical about it. And one's failure to attain the logic of praying or believing in the first place, is where faith comes in. Because you have no hard core evidence that God exists, much less that He heard you when you prayed. So the only evidence that you do have is your faith; your core convictions based on what you've read, heard, and other wise personally experienced over time.

Which leads me to something interesting here. When I listen to people argue both sides of this subject. They both are suggesting that their side is more or just as logical as the other persons. But I've come to understand, I think, that we're really dealing with two types of "logic" here. There's textbook logic, and then there is a logic that, well, people are just as convinced about without having any evidence to back it up. Now I know by definition, the latter really isn't logic. But you've heard people talk and explain things about their faith as if God was sitting right next to them typing on that key board. When people say they know God exsists or that prayer works and how it works, as far as they're concerned their "logic" is based on a different set of realities outside of hard facts or text book logic. I'm rambling a bit now, but I think you get my point.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by 12thMan

Exactly, that's all it boils down to. And I think that's the way He intended for it to be. While prayer is practical in practice and exercise, there's really not much logical about it. And one's failure to attain the logic of praying or believing in the first place, is where faith comes in. Because you have no hard core evidence that God exists, much less that He heard you when you prayed. So the only evidence that you do have is your faith; your core convictions based on what you've read, heard, and other wise personally experienced over time.

Which leads me to something interesting here. When I listen to people argue both sides of this subject. They both are suggesting that their side is more or just as logical as the other persons. But I've come to understand, I think, that we're really dealing with two types of "logic" here. There's textbook logic, and then there is a logic that, well, people are just as convinced about without having any evidence to back it up. Now I know by definition, the latter really isn't logic. But you've heard people talk and explain things about their faith as if God was sitting right next to them typing on that key board. When people say they know God exsists or that prayer works and how it works, as far as they're concerned their "logic" is based on a different set of realities outside of hard facts or text book logic. I'm rambling a bit now, but I think you get my point.

Yeah that's definitely stretching the definition of "logic", so I'm glad you put it in quotes. Logic is based on premises that can be, or have been, proven.

But to people who believe in God, the premise that He exists is not at all in doubt, even though it cannot be proven. So to them, God's existence is fact.

One good thing; I suppose we'll all find out who was right about his existence on the day we die.

[SUNRA]

I was taught that history is best qualified to answer our questions in the present. I can testify that without my African ancestors who have passed on and prayed for a better future and without those prayers to God there is no way African Americans would be physically freed from bondage which is consistent with all people who have experienced tragedy and triumph.

[saden1]

Originally Posted by SUNRA

I was taught that history is best qualified to answer our questions in the present. I can testify that without my African ancestors who have passed on and prayed for a better future and without those prayers to God there is no way African Americans would be physically freed from bondage which is consistent with all people who have experienced tragedy and triumph.

I am really amazed as why any African American would choose to be a Christian in light of a) what Christianity has to say about slavery and b) the forceful conversion of salves to Christianity.

I give not once cent of credit for the abolishment of slavery to prayer or god. All credit goes to a) Abraham Lincoln for freeing the salves and paying a heavy price for it b) white abolishionists for understanding how wrong slavery was and taking action c) and African Americans both slaves and free men for their struggles to be free.

Old Testament:
Leviticus 25:44-46
Exodus 21:7-1

New Testament:
Ephesians 6:5
1 Timothy 6:1-4

Give where credit is due!!!

p.s. I don't mean to make the debate about religion but I have very strong feelings about the subject of slavery as it relates to religion.

[Sammy Baugh Fan]

This Thread got Totally Jacked.

peace and prayers to you all
mike
<><

[Crazyhorse1]

Originally Posted by hooskins

Well said, well said.

Even adults need imaginary friends.

[Sammy Baugh Fan]

And finally the answer:
If you don't believe in God: Prayer does NOT work.
If you do believe in God: Yes, Prayer Works Great!

Have a great day folks
peace