Who Stays And Who Goes? Perceptions Changing?

SmootSmack · 12-07-2009, 04:33 PM

Some continuity would be nice and I'm sure ownership would prefer to succeed with the current group. But if they do decide to stick with Zorn I'd almost rather they give him an extension rather than go through another year next year of lame duck status. Still, I don't see overall what value Zorn brings to the team right now. I think he goes. Lewis could stay but fall back into the actual consulting role.

12thMan · 12-07-2009, 05:07 PM

I was going to start a separate thread, but it seems to fit neatly within this discussion. Mods, if you feel otherwise give it it's on title and maybe do a poll.

Yesterday the New Orleans Saints were 23 yards and a couple of away feet from losing their first game of the season. For Saints fans, it was a huge sigh of relief knowing they had just escaped their biggest scare of going undefeated. For Redskins fans, well, it was par for the course in what has turned out to be a roller coaster season filled with twists and turns, ups and downs, what ifs and almosts.

The loss to the Saints pretty much settled two matters: The Redskins won’t have a winning record this year and they won’t be going to the playoffs. Further, this team has proven they can thrive offensively without one Clinton Portis churning out three yards per carry. What is still up in the air, however, is the fate of head coach Jim Zorn and, perhaps, by extension Jason Campbell’s future with the franchise. During the first half of the season you could ask just about anyone, myself included, with nominal knowledge of the NFL and they would have told you that Jim Zorn deserved to be fired – and right on the spot. Sentiment on whether or not to fire Zorn is starting to swing in the other direction, in no small part because of Jason Campbell’s new found steadiness and the play calling of Sherm Lewis. Over the past four weeks, I’ve planted my feet firmly in the Jim Zorn stays camp. This thread is not so much me making my case again, although I am, as I am hoping that this like many other fan rants, will make its way back to Dan Snyder.

In other words, this is my banner on the side of the metro bus!

To be fair, Jim Zorn has his short comings. No one’s denying that. Zorn has been erratic in the red zone, poor clock management, and indecisiveness in the waning minutes when the game is close are among the chief reasons many have concluded he was in over his head. But then again, we’ve watched the venerable Bill Belichick blow fourth down calls in consecutive weeks. And if memory serves me correctly, Sean Payton had zero timeouts with the Redskins leading in the fourth quarter about to put the game away. Had the shoe been on the other foot, the fire Jim Zorn chants would have been in full force again today. The difference in perception and giving one coach a pass while calling for the other’s head seems to be that little thing called winning.

As Mike Wise rightly pointed out in his WaPo column, the Redskins have some tough choices to make during the offseason. What to do with the aforementioned Clinton Portis is one of them. And not just whether or not Portis stays or goes, but what should his role be should he stay. It’s clear that you don’t need a marquee running back to win in this league anymore. But the more I watch this group of players compete until the final snap of each game, the more I question the logic of bringing in a new head coach and going for a complete overhaul. For one, regardless of whom they bring in, the make-up of the coaching staff will change dramatically. With that comes a new coaching philosophy and offensive system and time to adjust. You would also have to think that Sherm Lewis, who is arguably central to the offense’s turnaround, would likely be gone as well. From where I sit Jim Zorn, Sherm Lewis, and Jason Campbell destinies seemed to be tied together for at least another year with this organization, if not longer.

So Mr. Snyder while you’ve learned that fans can and will continue to be fickle, this may the time for you to be steady and take your lumps. Ignore the noise and masses and maybe your own natural inclination to win and do something. Bring back Jim Zorn for another year.

SmootSmack · 12-07-2009, 05:55 PM

Well I think this is a fine example of why Snyder shouldn't listen to the fans. One week we all want Campbell and Zorn gone right away the next we want them re-signed for life. But that's what fans do. That's what Snyder I'm sure did when all he was was a fan. Snyder needs to do what's best for the team long-term, not make the popular decision of the moment. Is keeping Zorn one more year good for the long-term? Is holding on to Campbell another year good for the long-term? Those aren't decisions that should be left to the emotions of the fans, in my opinion.

mlmdub130 · 12-07-2009, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

Well I think this is a fine example of why Snyder shouldn't listen to the fans. One week we all want Campbell and Zorn gone right away the next we want them re-signed for life. But that's what fans do. That's what Snyder I'm sure did when all he was was a fan. Snyder needs to do what's best for the team long-term, not make the popular decision of the moment. Is keeping Zorn one more year good for the long-term? Is holding on to Campbell another year good for the long-term? Those aren't decisions that should be left to the emotions of the fans, in my opinion.

only problem is he has never done that, he has always gone for the quick fix, hopefully he can learn from his mistakes

Chico23231 · 12-07-2009, 06:10 PM

I really dont see how you hold on to Zorn or Vinny at this point..the collaspe end of last season and 3-9 this season? Vinny has had his 10 years...1. We need to hire a GM 2. Snyder needs to keep from making football decisions...When it comes down to long term, I think this the best thing for the team at this point. Just because we have played better the last 3 games hasnt change my perception of what this team is: 3-9 and long out of the playoff race.

12thMan · 12-07-2009, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chico23231

I really dont see how you hold on to Zorn or Vinny at this point..the collaspe end of last season and 3-9 this season? Vinny has had his 10 years...1. We need to hire a GM 2. Snyder needs to keep from making football decisions...When it comes down to long term, I think this the best thing for the team at this point. Just because we have played better the last 3 games hasnt change my perception of what this team is: 3-9 and long out of the playoff race.

I think you can make a very good case for keeping Zorn. And if you bring in some new coach, are you supposing that coach will take this team and go 10-6 or 11-5 or the playoffs even?

As far as the collapse, you ask five different people and you'll get five different answers.

tryfuhl · 12-07-2009, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chico23231

I really dont see how you hold on to Zorn or Vinny at this point..the collaspe end of last season and 3-9 this season? Vinny has had his 10 years...1. We need to hire a GM 2. Snyder needs to keep from making football decisions...When it comes down to long term, I think this the best thing for the team at this point. Just because we have played better the last 3 games hasnt change my perception of what this team is: 3-9 and long out of the playoff race.

Yeah, I mean people are championing behind Zorn once he's had the least control since he's been with the organization. To me that doesn't scream "head coach material" by any means. I can see where people are coming from on a continuity discussion but that's about it. Zorn's limited playcalling is still a bit too Gibbs for me; settling for the FG with no real intention to get a TD unless we get lucky shouldn't be in the game plan against a team like the Saints. We had some good red zone playcalling and some that worked that could've gone either way (DT stiff-arm and tip-toeing down the sideline) as well though; why not do what was working and show trust in your players to make the plays that they're paid to make?

pg86 · 12-07-2009, 07:05 PM

Stays: Sherm lewis, Zorn (QB Coach) Cooley (because Davis on the other side looks epic), Campbell (I can't believe i said that but I really wanna see this kid get his chance behind a decent line), Moss, Thomas, Kelly, Ganther,Cartwright, hell maybe we keep AL but if Al really loves the game he needs to work his ass off in the offseason to elevate his game. I would really like to see Hall mature into a great CB, Reed needs to stay too and Landry needs to be in his natural position or at least be better coached in his SS pos.

Must go's: Rodgers, Randle El, Suisham, Portis?, Vinny (I dream of that), Release Collins.

I can't think of many else on that choping block we need to build depth, our offensive line, maybe a few more receivers, and I love our defense but we need to stack it for the price of Al (not knocking him) we could of had 2 good DT's.

Draft: O-line, Allen bradford as a FB, a QB to give Brenan and Campbell some fire under their ass in camp. I don't know about you but I'd like to see Pike or Clausen under center in preseason!

Offtopic though I feel kinda sorry for Clausen that he had to Leave ND like that

EDIT: Maybe I'm too harsh on Vinny...look who he's brought in.

djnemo65 · 12-07-2009, 07:19 PM

This final month will have to be considered an audition for everybody. If they continue to improve every week a compelling case could be made for continuity, but let's not get too excited about a couple of close losses against decent to great teams. I mean, it's not like we've been winning, just losing with style.

pg86 · 12-07-2009, 08:08 PM

Yeah I got more bad news about this weekend....Were 37 point underdogs in Oakland

tryfuhl · 12-07-2009, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pg86

Yeah I got more bad news about this weekend....Were 37 point underdogs in Oakland

I think that this is a joke but I don't get it or whatever context that it's related to.

We're actually favored though, but only by 1.

pg86 · 12-07-2009, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tryfuhl

I think that this is a joke but I don't get it or whatever context that it's related to.

We're actually favored though, but only by 1.

I've been to 2 Skins games in Cali..this will make 3..I desperately wanna see a win live of course if we do win my dad and I will probably have to run to the B.A.R.T.

These guys did beat the Steelers I just hope we as hard as they have been playing if not harder they deserve a win I don't think they will go winless on the road this year.

TheSmurfs22 · 12-07-2009, 09:25 PM

Keep Campbell and fix the O Line. He has shown that if he is given time, like any qb in this league he can do good things. If we go into the offseason and just address the qb issue and ignore the line again we will be in this same spot next year.

SBXVII · 12-07-2009, 10:47 PM

.....Blow this shit up!

We've had 15 yrs of "were just one or two players away."
Out of the last 6 HC's only two were worth a crap; Marty and Gibbs.
Norv
Robiski
Marty
Spurrier
Gibbs
Zorn

QB: JC is gone unless we tag him or something. Mentally he's just a tad slow. 1 great game out of a 5 yr contract does not fool me. Dump Collins. Either draft a great QB or look to FA and pick up someone servicable to the scheme we are running. Pick one up a year from now if needed. Is Chase Daniels still available to compliment Colt?

RB: Their all old. Time for new blood. I'm a Mason fan and he's finally lost me. Ganther has been running, blocking, and catching great. Pick up another in the draft.

OL: Major focus for next yr. Hello OL, come one come all. We need you. Get rid of the old and bring in the young and healthy.

TE: Set.

WR: Set. Hopefully we have a more qualified position coach.

LB: Pick up a true SLB. Maybe pick up an undrafted LB.

CB: Bye Carlos. Pick up another CB for developement. Keep Hall (obviously), Tryon, Barnes, Westbrook, Horton, ???.

S: I think Landry needs to move to SS with Doughty and Moore. Pick up a true FS or two.

DL: Keep all the young guys. Get rid of the old broken guys. Obviously keep Haynesworth.

K: Can we find a great kicker?

P: Kinda satisfied, but if a better ones available then pick them up.

If we are going to blow this up now is a good time. Heard a "rumor" that Shanahan is a done deal ready to be announced. Heard it on 106.7 with Arrington. If anytime is good it's now so he can bring in his talent scoutes, his position coaches, hopefully his coach that helped him with the OL that made Denver such a great rushing team, and bring in a bunch of new OL to build with.

MTK · 12-08-2009, 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SBXVII

.....Blow this shit up!

Your boy Marty doesn't agree with blowing things up. And he even thinks Zorn should stay.

12-07-2009, 04:33 PM	#1
SmootSmack Uncle Phil Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 45,256	Re: Who Stays And Who Goes? Perceptions Changing? Some continuity would be nice and I'm sure ownership would prefer to succeed with the current group. But if they do decide to stick with Zorn I'd almost rather they give him an extension rather than go through another year next year of lame duck status. Still, I don't see overall what value Zorn brings to the team right now. I think he goes. Lewis could stay but fall back into the actual consulting role. __________________ You're So Vain...You Probably Think This Sig Is About You

12-07-2009, 05:07 PM	#2
12thMan MVP Join Date: May 2005 Location: washington, D.C. Posts: 11,460	Re: Who Stays And Who Goes? Perceptions Changing? I was going to start a separate thread, but it seems to fit neatly within this discussion. Mods, if you feel otherwise give it it's on title and maybe do a poll. Yesterday the New Orleans Saints were 23 yards and a couple of away feet from losing their first game of the season. For Saints fans, it was a huge sigh of relief knowing they had just escaped their biggest scare of going undefeated. For Redskins fans, well, it was par for the course in what has turned out to be a roller coaster season filled with twists and turns, ups and downs, what ifs and almosts. The loss to the Saints pretty much settled two matters: The Redskins won’t have a winning record this year and they won’t be going to the playoffs. Further, this team has proven they can thrive offensively without one Clinton Portis churning out three yards per carry. What is still up in the air, however, is the fate of head coach Jim Zorn and, perhaps, by extension Jason Campbell’s future with the franchise. During the first half of the season you could ask just about anyone, myself included, with nominal knowledge of the NFL and they would have told you that Jim Zorn deserved to be fired – and right on the spot. Sentiment on whether or not to fire Zorn is starting to swing in the other direction, in no small part because of Jason Campbell’s new found steadiness and the play calling of Sherm Lewis. Over the past four weeks, I’ve planted my feet firmly in the Jim Zorn stays camp. This thread is not so much me making my case again, although I am, as I am hoping that this like many other fan rants, will make its way back to Dan Snyder. In other words, this is my banner on the side of the metro bus! To be fair, Jim Zorn has his short comings. No one’s denying that. Zorn has been erratic in the red zone, poor clock management, and indecisiveness in the waning minutes when the game is close are among the chief reasons many have concluded he was in over his head. But then again, we’ve watched the venerable Bill Belichick blow fourth down calls in consecutive weeks. And if memory serves me correctly, Sean Payton had zero timeouts with the Redskins leading in the fourth quarter about to put the game away. Had the shoe been on the other foot, the fire Jim Zorn chants would have been in full force again today. The difference in perception and giving one coach a pass while calling for the other’s head seems to be that little thing called winning. As Mike Wise rightly pointed out in his WaPo column, the Redskins have some tough choices to make during the offseason. What to do with the aforementioned Clinton Portis is one of them. And not just whether or not Portis stays or goes, but what should his role be should he stay. It’s clear that you don’t need a marquee running back to win in this league anymore. But the more I watch this group of players compete until the final snap of each game, the more I question the logic of bringing in a new head coach and going for a complete overhaul. For one, regardless of whom they bring in, the make-up of the coaching staff will change dramatically. With that comes a new coaching philosophy and offensive system and time to adjust. You would also have to think that Sherm Lewis, who is arguably central to the offense’s turnaround, would likely be gone as well. From where I sit Jim Zorn, Sherm Lewis, and Jason Campbell destinies seemed to be tied together for at least another year with this organization, if not longer. So Mr. Snyder while you’ve learned that fans can and will continue to be fickle, this may the time for you to be steady and take your lumps. Ignore the noise and masses and maybe your own natural inclination to win and do something. Bring back Jim Zorn for another year.

12-07-2009, 05:55 PM	#3
SmootSmack Uncle Phil Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 45,256	Re: Who Stays And Who Goes? Perceptions Changing? Well I think this is a fine example of why Snyder shouldn't listen to the fans. One week we all want Campbell and Zorn gone right away the next we want them re-signed for life. But that's what fans do. That's what Snyder I'm sure did when all he was was a fan. Snyder needs to do what's best for the team long-term, not make the popular decision of the moment. Is keeping Zorn one more year good for the long-term? Is holding on to Campbell another year good for the long-term? Those aren't decisions that should be left to the emotions of the fans, in my opinion. __________________ You're So Vain...You Probably Think This Sig Is About You

12-07-2009, 06:10 PM	#5
Chico23231 Warpath Hall of Fame Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 33,985	Re: Who Stays And Who Goes? Perceptions Changing? I really dont see how you hold on to Zorn or Vinny at this point..the collaspe end of last season and 3-9 this season? Vinny has had his 10 years...1. We need to hire a GM 2. Snyder needs to keep from making football decisions...When it comes down to long term, I think this the best thing for the team at this point. Just because we have played better the last 3 games hasnt change my perception of what this team is: 3-9 and long out of the playoff race. __________________ My pronouns: King/Your ruler He Gets Us

12-07-2009, 07:05 PM	#8
pg86 No new threads for you Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 1,959	Re: Who Stays And Who Goes? Perceptions Changing? Stays: Sherm lewis, Zorn (QB Coach) Cooley (because Davis on the other side looks epic), Campbell (I can't believe i said that but I really wanna see this kid get his chance behind a decent line), Moss, Thomas, Kelly, Ganther,Cartwright, hell maybe we keep AL but if Al really loves the game he needs to work his ass off in the offseason to elevate his game. I would really like to see Hall mature into a great CB, Reed needs to stay too and Landry needs to be in his natural position or at least be better coached in his SS pos. Must go's: Rodgers, Randle El, Suisham, Portis?, Vinny (I dream of that), Release Collins. I can't think of many else on that choping block we need to build depth, our offensive line, maybe a few more receivers, and I love our defense but we need to stack it for the price of Al (not knocking him) we could of had 2 good DT's. Draft: O-line, Allen bradford as a FB, a QB to give Brenan and Campbell some fire under their ass in camp. I don't know about you but I'd like to see Pike or Clausen under center in preseason! Offtopic though I feel kinda sorry for Clausen that he had to Leave ND like that EDIT: Maybe I'm too harsh on Vinny...look who he's brought in.

12-07-2009, 07:19 PM	#9
djnemo65 Playmaker Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,836	Re: Who Stays And Who Goes? Perceptions Changing? This final month will have to be considered an audition for everybody. If they continue to improve every week a compelling case could be made for continuity, but let's not get too excited about a couple of close losses against decent to great teams. I mean, it's not like we've been winning, just losing with style.

12-07-2009, 08:08 PM	#10
pg86 No new threads for you Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 1,959	Re: Who Stays And Who Goes? Perceptions Changing? Yeah I got more bad news about this weekend....Were 37 point underdogs in Oakland

12-07-2009, 09:25 PM	#13
TheSmurfs22 The Starter Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Staunton, VA Posts: 1,261	Re: Who Stays And Who Goes? Perceptions Changing? Keep Campbell and fix the O Line. He has shown that if he is given time, like any qb in this league he can do good things. If we go into the offseason and just address the qb issue and ignore the line again we will be in this same spot next year. __________________ F#$% the Cowpukes!

12-07-2009, 10:47 PM	#14
SBXVII Franchise Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 7,766	Re: Who Stays And Who Goes? Perceptions Changing? .....Blow this shit up! We've had 15 yrs of "were just one or two players away." Out of the last 6 HC's only two were worth a crap; Marty and Gibbs. Norv Robiski Marty Spurrier Gibbs Zorn QB: JC is gone unless we tag him or something. Mentally he's just a tad slow. 1 great game out of a 5 yr contract does not fool me. Dump Collins. Either draft a great QB or look to FA and pick up someone servicable to the scheme we are running. Pick one up a year from now if needed. Is Chase Daniels still available to compliment Colt? RB: Their all old. Time for new blood. I'm a Mason fan and he's finally lost me. Ganther has been running, blocking, and catching great. Pick up another in the draft. OL: Major focus for next yr. Hello OL, come one come all. We need you. Get rid of the old and bring in the young and healthy. TE: Set. WR: Set. Hopefully we have a more qualified position coach. LB: Pick up a true SLB. Maybe pick up an undrafted LB. CB: Bye Carlos. Pick up another CB for developement. Keep Hall (obviously), Tryon, Barnes, Westbrook, Horton, ???. S: I think Landry needs to move to SS with Doughty and Moore. Pick up a true FS or two. DL: Keep all the young guys. Get rid of the old broken guys. Obviously keep Haynesworth. K: Can we find a great kicker? P: Kinda satisfied, but if a better ones available then pick them up. If we are going to blow this up now is a good time. Heard a "rumor" that Shanahan is a done deal ready to be announced. Heard it on 106.7 with Arrington. If anytime is good it's now so he can bring in his talent scoutes, his position coaches, hopefully his coach that helped him with the OL that made Denver such a great rushing team, and bring in a bunch of new OL to build with.

Who Stays And Who Goes? Perceptions Changing?

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