Talent Evaluation?

[skinsguy]

Originally Posted by offiss

So you don't believe that the possibility exists that the reason defenses stack the D-lines and shut down the running game has nothing to do with Brunells inability to throw the ball downfield with any kind of velocity?

Plenty of QB's in this league can dink and dunk which is what we do for the most part, there are plenty of stats to point to for both sides of the issue but the bottom line is we are not winning, and the last 3 games were absolutly winnable, as it was stated somewhere, we came from ahead to lose another one late, Brunell if he is the man, and the QB to lead us to a SB, then he has to pull those games out, there was nothing monumental he had to do to win any of those games, he was in a position to make a difference and FAILED!

You do realize this is season 2005, not season 2004? I have no idea where you coming from with this we never go deep excuse. You know that is nothing but garbage. I honestly believe you're going back and arguing about last year. I suppose it makes sense to throw it deep even though the receivers are double covered - yeah that's brilliant!

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

I seem to remember pointing this out when Ramsey was stinking it up during preseason when it was actually happening. But everyone said I was "rushing to judgment."

Interesting.

Yup, you did rush to judgment. I really don't care what people say about Ramsey's stats. People who are citing his stats obviously haven't been listening to what a lot of people like myself have been saying. I am not saying that Ramsey would have done better than Brunell this season. He probably would not have done better. BUT, in the long run, I think he's the better option.

People here in D.C. don't give you any chances. We rushed Ramsey like a bunch of fantasy owner, Madden-playing impatient Snyderitos. When we dump him and Brunell is too old to play, we'll go through yet another growing season with Campbell (aka losing season).

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by skinsguy

First of all, I never said Ramsey is garbage. I never made that comment. I have stated repeatedly that I think Ramsey is a good guy and going to be a decent QB in the league, but he hasn't developed the tools for it just yet. I also added that I believe he'll be a late bloomer quarterback that will have his best years after he's been in the league for several seasons.

Gee, I wonder why he hasn't developed the tools just yet?

Originally Posted by skinsguy

Mark Brunell has not only proven himself renewed from preseason, but he has played pretty well this whole season. I'm not suggesting he has played flawlessly, but his overall play has been more than good to justify him being in the starting lineup over Patrick Ramsey. If it was Ramsey that proved himself the man, I'd support him. The bottom line is, I want this team to win, and at this moment, Mark Brunell gives us the best chance at doing so. If Patrick Ramsey comes in and proves me wrong...by all means I will root for him to do so.

Mark Brunell does give us the best chance to win now; that's why he should remain the starter until we are definately out of the playoffs. But, at some point, when you know that the season is lost, shouldn't we look towards the future. Anyone who thinks Brunell is the future better have some miracle drugs to give him because he'll turn 36 next season.

[offiss]

Originally Posted by skinsguy

You do realize this is season 2005, not season 2004? I have no idea where you coming from with this we never go deep excuse. You know that is nothing but garbage. I honestly believe you're going back and arguing about last year. I suppose it makes sense to throw it deep even though the receivers are double covered - yeah that's brilliant!

I absolutly agree, you have no idea. :confused:

[skinsguy]

Originally Posted by Ramseyfan

Gee, I wonder why he hasn't developed the tools just yet?

Well, for one thing, not everybody learns at the same pace. Steve Young wasn't a hall of fame quarterback from the start of his career by any means. Maybe alot depends on their development through their college years and the systems they grew under.

I also believe that a key element in the development of a young quarterback is to supply him max protection. Of course I believe that is vital for any quarterback to be successful, but it is essential for young quarterbacks to slow the game down enough to develop. In the case of Patrick Ramsey, he was thrown into the fire in a system where protection wasn't a huge aspect of the system. It finally caught up with him in year two of Spurrier's tenure, with Ramsey having to be sidelined because of injury. Now, I realize we have Spurrier fans here and that's okay. I love Spurrier as a college coach. I'm not bashing the guy. However, I believe his system really did a number on Patrick Ramsey.

Then you couple that with Jansen going down last season - which really cut back on the pass protection for Patrick. So, while he was supposed to have better pass protection last season (and Brunell as well,) it still wasn't the max protection that we had been used to seeing with Gibbs/Bugel offense. I think it was alot better than what Spurrier gave him, but not enough of what Patrick needed to get himself back on track. Because of this, I believe is one of the main reasons why we are seeing Mark instead of Patrick.

Of course one can argue that the pass protection isn't Patrick Ramsey's fault, and I agree with that statement. However, when the conditions are less than perfect, you need a good veteran quarterback who knows what to do to get out of trouble and make the play. Brunell has used his legs plenty of times to get us a first down or at least out of major trouble. Just look at the Dallas game for one example. So of course the next question is, how can Patrick learn to do the stuff that a vet like Brunell does to make these plays when things breakdown? Well, a part of that is watching Mark Brunell play and taking notes! Looking at film and seeing what a vet would do in certain situations. Patrick didn't have that option in his first year in the NFL. He had to learn from the likes of Danny Wuerful (ms) and Shane Matthews. Need I say more? But, I believe that watching Mark play can't hurt Patrick Ramsey. He is learning alot more about what to do, rather than what he learned not to do under the other QBs. Of course he's going to need playing time to do what he's learned by watching Brunell, but again, he needs max protection to help slow the game down so he can develop his skills.

Originally Posted by Ramseyfan

Mark Brunell does give us the best chance to win now; that's why he should remain the starter until we are definately out of the playoffs. But, at some point, when you know that the season is lost, shouldn't we look towards the future. Anyone who thinks Brunell is the future better have some miracle drugs to give him because he'll turn 36 next season.

I agree with you. Although, I'd probably put Patrick Ramsey back in the game. I am a strong believer in not forcing a rookie quarterback onto the field before his time. I realize everybody is wanting to see what Jason Campbell can do - myself included - but I think he needs one solid year on the bench to just watch the vets play and learn. Next season, I'd go back with Mark Brunell and stick with him until he gets injured or retires. At least putting Patrick Ramsey back on the field, it allows him to audition himself for other teams - although I'd probably still wanna hold on to Ramsey for one more year.

[skinsguy]

Originally Posted by offiss

I absolutly agree, you have no idea. :confused:

Maybe you can tell me then, oh great one, why it makes sense to just launch the ball 50+ yards down the field even when your best deep threat is double covered, and everybody else drops back in coverage? This isn't playstation or Xbox and you don't get any mulligans if the pass is intercepted.

[offiss]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

After the first two games it was 82.3, after his first two starts it was 87.8... I don't see your point. :confused:

The point is you keep pointing to Brunells first 5 games which isn't fair to Ramsey, Brunell did nothing until the final 3 minutes against dallas his first 2 games, so it's this simple, don't compare a QB who was given 1 quarter of regular season play, against a QB who recieved 2 games to become comfortable with new players around him.

It just makes me laugh at the amount of people who know Ramsey wouldn't have become any better with playing time, maybe their right, who knows at this point, but to say Ramsey has been given a fair opportunity, I don't see how that's possible?

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Also, for all the anti-ramseyfans, if Ramsey is so bad, why do you think Gibbs said he would not even CONSIDER trading him? If you recall, the Jets were interested in Ramsey after Pennington went down. Gibbs said unequivocally that the team wouldn't even consider trading Ramsey.

[skinsguy]

Originally Posted by Ramseyfan

Also, for all the anti-ramseyfans, if Ramsey is so bad, why do you think Gibbs said he would not even CONSIDER trading him? If you recall, the Jets were interested in Ramsey after Pennington went down. Gibbs said unequivocally that the team wouldn't even consider trading Ramsey.

I can answer that. You would have a rookie left as a back-up and bringing in another QB means having to give him a crash course of the system. Ramsey is good enough and knowledgable enough to come in if we needed him to replace Brunell. Not to mention this would be a huge distraction for the team- which is something you try to avoid especially during the season.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by Ramseyfan

Also, for all the anti-ramseyfans, if Ramsey is so bad, why do you think Gibbs said he would not even CONSIDER trading him? If you recall, the Jets were interested in Ramsey after Pennington went down. Gibbs said unequivocally that the team wouldn't even consider trading Ramsey.

Well part of it is that it's not the responsibility of the Redskins to help other teams if their QB goes down. Also, by stating unequivocally that you have no interest in trading him you keep his trade value up, or maybe even make it higher. It's possible that if Ramsey played his value would go up after other teams saw how well he played. Or he could totally tank it and his value would plummet. Especially with so many other QBs that are going to be on the market this spring.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by offiss

I guess you want to point out the pre-season where Ramsey was facing NFL starters, with brand new WR's, and Brunell was facing the UPS loading dock crew.

It's not like Brunell was playing with a bunch of all-stars by his side though. He was throwing to the likes of Darnerien McCants, Jamin Elliott, Billy Baber; handing it off to Nemo and Jonathan Combs.