Roster transition in the Shanny era

[The Goat]

Originally Posted by Paintrain

So were T. Williams, Riley, Paulson, Bowen, Carriker, Cofield, Gaffney, Hightower, Kerrigan, Jenkins, Hankerson, Helu, Gomes and Royster examples of poor talent evaluation? Were the 52 players released and now out of the NFL examples of poor talent evaluation?

I guess I kinda feel like Col. Jessup in A Few Good Men.. Please tell me you have more than Rinehart, E. Williams and Justin Tryon.. Please tell me this is about more than Carter and Rogers.. We're talking about the future of our beloved franchise, please tell me you're basing your argument on something more than Stephon Heyer.. I'm going back to my base..

So again, for clarification, is the issue who is NOT here anymore or the fact that better players who replaced the 52 departed aren't better players. That I would agree is an issue but I'd offer that there's more at play than just 'poor' talent evaluation.

Well...talent evaluation is rather critical in pro football. It's as much the story between Patriots vs Rams as it is Belichick vs Spags. Smart to brilliant talent evaluators tend to keep their jobs as long as they wish. Poor ones get canned within a couple years. So far, Mike has been a lousy talent-evaluator more often than not, and especially where it counts most in pro football...at quarterback. But he's the "safest" coach in pro football tonight.

And you cannot say "rebuild the defense in season 1" or why else McNabb? Why additions at WR? I just don't see the planning angle you do...

[SkinItup]

Rogers left years ago. He was just still playing on the team. Short of paying him more than Nnamdi got payed he was leaving the skins and even than it was questionable.

AC was a scheme causality. Too small for 3-4 DE not good standing in space.

They are both good players just not for the skins.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Bushead

Gtripp, I've read a lot of the posts you've had since the season ended and I'm just not quite sure I follow your vendetta. You seem completely against anything and everything Shanahan has done from free agents, drafting, playing certain players, play calling, time management, personnel.

I personally just don't get it. I'm not saying you are wrong or your opinion is not backed up, but can you succinctly tell me why you are so anti-Shanahan when it comes to almost everything?

There are people here that are convinced I cannot do anything succinctly.

In brief: I didn't think Shanahan was a good hire for where the Redskins were at the time, I wasn't enamored by his staff picks (particularly Kyle), he kept an incredibly high percentage of Zorn's roster in year one for most of the offseason (though perhaps not the right percentage), I didn't like the McNabb trade, I didn't like how poorly and largely uninspired the whole team performed in year one, I don't like how he treats some veteran players (McNabb in particular, but there are other examples) vs others, I didn't think that the direction of second offseason showed a great concept of where this team was at the time, I thought the whole Rex vs. Beck thing was stupid and easily avoidable, I don't like that he has managed to fall vastly short of my expectations as a manager of the game on the sideline, and I don't always like that when Shanahan opens up a window (via the dreaded media relations) into what he is thinking that he often seems to have little grasp of what is actually happening around him. None of that was a case of second guessing, it was all first guessing.

As to the reason why it seems like I hate everything so much, I think that's more a case of everyone else being irrationally hopeful that there is no way that this era could fail and doing anything and everything to justify mistakes made by this regime as some sort of process of suffering before we come out the other side as super bowl contenders. I would suggest that absent that sentiment that things WILL work out and the Redskins WILL have a quarterback tomorrow that is better than anyone we've ever had at the position before, well, then I'm just some dude with some opinions that are likely too bullish on the Redskins (with the right moves they can compete for the division next year!!!11!), and others that are too bearish and don't give enough credit where it is due.

So that would make me pretty much like anyone else here, except that my football paradigm doesn't lead me to the conclusion that things will be absolutely alright as long as Mike Shanahan is the coach here. My football paradigm doesn't lead me anywhere exactly. The evidence Shanahan has left does lead me to the conclusion that he will not succeed here, but that's not something I necessarily believed when he was hired.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Paintrain

So were T. Williams, Riley, Paulson, Bowen, Carriker, Cofield, Gaffney, Hightower, Kerrigan, Jenkins, Hankerson, Helu, Gomes and Royster examples of poor talent evaluation? Were the 52 players released and now out of the NFL examples of poor talent evaluation?

Well, when Zorn left SOMEONE FORGOT TO LOCK THE BACK DOOR and Mike Williams and Casey Rabach got contract extensions as a result.

To answer your question, no. I mean, you shouldn't need more examples of poor talent evaluation than I have provided to believe there is a problem. Compile a list of names of the players who the Redskins have targeted and acquired in trades (McNabb, Brown, Hightower, and well, yes, Gaffney). Compile a list of names of the players who the Redskins have targeted and extended (M. Williams, Rabach, Moss, Montgomery, Alexander, Doughty) from their own roster. Now consider who the the core players on this team are and have been and how many of those guys have actually been awarded contract extensions since Dec. 2009 vs who has been allowed to walk.

My assertion there would be that at least 20 other NFL teams, and probably 25, could match the names on your list just with moves dating back to March 2010. It's not something we should believe that Mike has brought an unprecedented amount of good football players into the organization. He had a strong draft in 2011. Some teams had a good draft in 2010. The Redskins weren't one of those teams. Neither the 2010 or the 2011 draft is going to define our personnel department the way the evidence I provided throughout this thread is going to.

I guess I kinda feel like Col. Jessup in A Few Good Men.. Please tell me you have more than Rinehart, E. Williams and Justin Tryon.. Please tell me this is about more than Carter and Rogers.. We're talking about the future of our beloved franchise, please tell me you're basing your argument on something more than Stephon Heyer.. I'm going back to my base..

So again, for clarification, is the issue who is NOT here anymore or the fact that better players who replaced the 52 departed aren't better players. That I would agree is an issue but I'd offer that there's more at play than just 'poor' talent evaluation.

I think the strength of my argument speaks for itself. I mean, if you boil it down in a way so that you're just looking at guys like Tryon, Rinehart, and Edwin Williams alone, well, then that point isn't strong. If you're just looking at Carter and Rogers alone, well, that point isn't strong. If you're just looking at McNabb, well, then that point doesn't mean much by itself. Actually that's lunacy, no one thinks highly of the McNabb trade.

If you actually realize that the struggles the Redskins have had to identify the players within their own building that are worth keeping and building around vs the ones that are totally useless and out of the league the day they are handed their walking papers has been completely unprecedented in the NFL these last two years, well, then that's not weak at all, it's very telling.

You could maybe, maybe argue that the Mike Holmgren Browns have been just as bad at evaluating talent as the Mike Shanahan Redskins. That team did let a lot of the talent that Rob Ryan brought into that organization walk for nothing. But I don't know if "we do it as well as those schlubs in Cleveland!" has quite the same ring as the fact that "we're finally getting our QB this year" whether or not it is true.

And Colt McCoy is a better quarterback than anyone that Mike Shanahan has brought to town to date, which would be the tiebreaker between the two organizations.

[diehard]

Mike Williams was a effin joke. A lot of fans liked that dude. Great guy, great story but, average player.

[htownskinfan]

GTripp0012 makes some great points and everybody else debating him make some good points too.I tend to lean on the side of Tripp.
As Ive said before,ask any Denver fan,ask any knowledgable football expert,they all agree on one thing,great coach-TERRIBLE GM TALENT EVALUATORFrom his terrible time management and mishandling of instant replay calls along with other factors I dont even consider him that good of a coach anymore

[SmootSmack]

He's had some gaffes for sure, but that comes with being in the game so long. But is he really terrible? Broncos had a lot of 4th-7th round picks that had/have successful careers.

[#56fanatic]

I believe Shanny and Allen are definitely getting this ship moving in the right direction. I think they wanted to try and compete the first year because of the "supposed" talent they had on the team and to see if they would respond to Shanny and really compete. Bringing Donovan in wasn't a bad move from the stand point of where Donovan has been, how he had played over his career, and what they thought he brought to the table as far as leadership and instant credit in the locker room. That experiment turned out to be a bad one.
But to take what he had in 2010, and reshape this roster with a GREAT draft and some pinpoint free agency additions, you have believe that this team will be competing for the division and NFC championship in the next two years. They are building young talent, some quality depth and looking at the draft from last season they really seem to be aquiring good depth.
The more I look at last years draft, the QB situation we have was probably the best we could have done. Shanny couldn't make any deals to move up to get the QB's he wanted. For whatever the reason he saw things in Blane Gabbert that he didn't want any part of. And by all early indications, he was right by not drafting him. It remains to be seen how much we are going to be willing to part with to move up to get Luck or RGIII. Personally, I wouldn't give up a ton because the draft will be stocked with a few good QB's again next year. Plus, there are quality QB's that I believe we can get later in the 1st or 2nd round this year.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

He's had some gaffes for sure, but that comes with being in the game so long. But is he really terrible? Broncos had a lot of 4th-7th round picks that had/have successful careers.

I compared his track record to other teams over the time period (1995-2008, because I could not find which year he received full draft autonomy from the Broncos) and this is very true for the positions of RB, WR, TE, G, and C. Shanahan likely outdrafted all of his competition in the late rounds at those positions. And we've seen glimpses of that ability here, with guys like Helu and Royster.

Defensively and in terms of finding quarterbacks though, the Broncos basically had no success beyond the first three rounds. Elvis Dumerville is probably "the" success story there, though he ranks behind Nate Wayne in AV.

Shanahan in the 4th-7th, career with Denver.

[celts32]

Thom Loverro: For Shanahan, no rough draft | Thom Loverro | NFL | Washington Examiner

Shanny not being able to draft is a complete myth that people who don't like Shanny cling to...

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by celts32

Thom Loverro: For Shanahan, no rough draft | Thom Loverro | NFL | Washington Examiner

Shanny not being able to draft is a complete myth that people who don't like Shanny cling to...

/looks around to find the person that said Shanahan can't draft.

Must be on a different board.

Anyway, if Shanahan had the ability to translate his drafts into on-field results, no one would think this.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by celts32

Thom Loverro: For Shanahan, no rough draft | Thom Loverro | NFL | Washington Examiner

Shanny not being able to draft is a complete myth that people who don't like Shanny cling to...

Good read.

[Hog1]

Originally Posted by celts32

Thom Loverro: For Shanahan, no rough draft | Thom Loverro | NFL | Washington Examiner

Shanny not being able to draft is a complete myth that people who don't like Shanny cling to...

Is it not amazing how many Arm Chair Coaches will lay that nonsense down....To Funny.

[htownskinfan]

Originally Posted by celts32

Thom Loverro: For Shanahan, no rough draft | Thom Loverro | NFL | Washington Examiner

Shanny not being able to draft is a complete myth that people who don't like Shanny cling to...

good read and opened my eyes a bit,Although I would like it to go back his whole tenure and not just 4 yrs.I have a good friend that lives in Denver who always complained about him as a GM and have seen several NFL experts say the same,maybe its just a myth thats been perpetuated thru the years and Ive fell victim to it.I need to see all the evidence,somebody do the research for me

[GTripp0012]

Isn't it interesting that when Shanahan drafts a lot of useful pieces and parts that go on to be successful elsewhere around the league, it is evidence that he is a good drafter. But when he cuts a lot of those young players and they go elsewhere to be starters, then it's a scheme issue, not that the coach can't evaluate his own roster.

Me thinks that is very, very interesting. It would seem that some people are being disingenuous about what they truly believe.