obama is taking my $

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by dmek25

and the difference with the radical right, that would rather bomb abortion clinics is???

12th made the statement that "no on is for abortion" which I don't believe is true and I was showing why I did think that was true.

[dmek25]

i think what he was referring to is that most people favor the right to choose, not the actual disposing of a fetus. i don't think most of us are qualified to actually tell a woman what she can, and cannot do, with her own body. everyone has different circumstances on how they ended up pregnant

[12thMan]

Originally Posted by firstdown

12th made the statement that "no on is for abortion" which I don't believe is true and I was showing why I did think that was true.

I think you know what I meant when I said no one is for abortion. Bottom line, no woman wants someone telling them what to do with their body.

Your story provides a very good and accurate account of why many have taken one side of the issue. And I would say that for every story such as yours, there's at least one that pushed people in the other directions.

There's no question this issue, at least in my opinion, has been politicized by many on the left and demonized by some of our religious brothers on the right. I think the issue is, or should be, not whether we make abortion illegal, but how can we reduce unwanted pregnacies.

I know, I know there I go again with my talking points. I can't help myself.

[wolfeskins]

Originally Posted by 12thMan

I think you know what I meant when I said no one is for abortion. Bottom line, no woman wants someone telling them what to do with their body.

no one is telling women what to do with their body, what they're being told is "don't kill that child living inside you". just like saying "don't kill your neighbor". that's the stance from most pro-lifers.

[70Chip]

Originally Posted by 12thMan

So who's actions are right in this case, 70? The government telling a woman what to do with her own body, a very personal and moral decision or the alternative, doing what she feels is in her best interest and well being?

Why is it an either or proposition?

It's become a common strategy among center-leftish politicians to support abortion rights 100% when it counts (that is with their votes) and then turn around and pretend that they have these great moral reservations when it doesn't count at all (when they're flapping their big gums).

If you're not sure when life begins, if it's "above your pay grade" wouldn't it make more sense to err on the side of caution and oppose abortion? Instead their uncertainty has led them to support abortion on demand wherever and whenever possible. They're full of shit.

[70Chip]

Originally Posted by dmek25

i think what he was referring to is that most people favor the right to choose, not the actual disposing of a fetus. i don't think most of us are qualified to actually tell a woman what she can, and cannot do, with her own body. everyone has different circumstances on how they ended up pregnant

Totally true. I knew this girl that got pregnant from riding a tractor.

You can't support a women's right to "dispose of the fetus" and also feel sorry for the fetus. Logic won't allow for it.

[4mrusmc]

Originally Posted by 12thMan

It's the word "abortion", Dmek. It's a sexy word to use and divisive at the same time. The reality is, no one is FOR abortion.

But I suspect it's a number of things that has caused this particular topic to bubble to the top and become central to a much larger debate. I think, for one, coming off the heels of a historic election, people are engaged like never before.

I agree 12th. That is why your side likes to use the word choice. Why not call it what it really is: Infanticide.

[70Chip]

Originally Posted by djnemo65

Right, that's what it is, fashion.

I know you like to vilify and demonize anyone whose views differ from yours, describing them alternatively as pierced slackers, loitering homosexuals, white flag waving francophiles, fornicating Europeans, or in this case, pro dead fetus dissimulators, but seriously, can't you consider the possibility that not sharing your values doesn't automatically make someone morally corrupt?

This is how one should post. This one gets a happy face. At least someone has been paying attention.

Our worldviews are just at odds. Your concept of morality is like a sand dune, ever shifting and unpermanent, while mine is more like a rock. It galls you that someone will actually say something is absolutely wrong, especially in the sexual realm. The reason is that God is at the center of my existence and your own false sense of yourself is at the center of yours. It's all very simple, really.

[4mrusmc]

I think it is abit ironic that liberals are quick to defend a murderer's right to life. A terrorist's right to American due process (closing down Gitmo). And, the showing of a video montage of American service men killing enemy combatants on the battle field, while God Bless America is playing. But, out of the other side of there ass, they will not defend the rights of an innocent fetus.

Me personally, I think abortion is okay in cases of rape, incest, and harm to the mother's life.

[KLHJ2]

Whoa, whoa, whoa, easy there hero. First of all not all fetuses are innocent. In the event that a woman is rapped or drugged and she gets pregnant you are going to ensure that she bears a child of the person that did that to her? I believe that it is cruel and unusal punishment. If she does not want to bear that child, then she is entitled. After all isn't it the belief of most of you that the son will bear the sins of the father? Why shouldn't it be her choice? If killing a fetus is wrong, then you shouldn't eat eggs. No one Rep or Dem believes in killing a child. Hell, most of us do not believe in killing at all. Correct me if I am wrong but don't several people believe in mercy killings of animals when they are wounded or do not stand a strong chance of survival? What is the difference?


I swear that if you say "It's because we are human and they are animals" I will puke. Doesn't your book also say that you will look over the animals? Yet we will kill them at will. There cannot be a double standard. So let me ask you; are you a vegetarian? If not, then you really need to rethink your position.

[saden1]

You know what I find ironic? The fact that conservatives talk about freedom, democracy and liberty yet are willing to hold people/suspects in prison indefinitely without trial. They're willing to toss principles of freedom and the right to self-determination when a woman wants to terminate a pregnancy. They're OK with the killing that comes with war and civilian "collateral damage."

Abortion is OK so long as a woman makes the choice to abort before the 5 and half month mark.

[12thMan]

Originally Posted by wolfeskins

no one is telling women what to do with their body, what they're being told is "don't kill that child living inside you". just like saying "don't kill your neighbor". that's the stance from most pro-lifers.

You know, someone how that doesn't even sound right. It just doesn't make sense. You most certainly are telling women what to do with their bodies.

And while you're quoting scripture, let's quote a few more. What about adultry and bearing false witness? Are they not also deeds punishable under the Old Testament?

So now, which one of those three --murder, false witness (lying), adultry, are unlawful?

In other words, if my daughter get's knocked up out of wedlock, which one is the crime. The act of adultry or the abortion?

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by 12thMan

In other words, if my daughter get's knocked up out of wedlock, which one is the crime. The act of adultry or the abortion?

Both, right? Am I answering a trick question?

[70Chip]

Originally Posted by saden1

You know what I find ironic? The fact that conservatives talk about freedom, democracy and liberty yet are willing to hold people/suspects in prison indefinitely without trial. They're willing to toss principles of freedom and the right to self-determination when a woman wants to terminate a pregnancy. They're OK with the killing that comes with war and civilian "collateral damage."

Abortion is OK so long as a woman makes the choice to abort before the 5 and half month mark.

So you are "for" abortion, correct?

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by saden1

You know what I find ironic? The fact that conservatives talk about freedom, democracy and liberty yet are willing to hold people/suspects in prison indefinitely without trial. They're willing to toss principles of freedom and the right to self-determination when a woman wants to terminate a pregnancy. They're OK with the killing that comes with war and civilian "collateral damage."

Abortion is OK so long as a woman makes the choice to abort before the 5 and half month mark.

I've got no problem holding suspected terrorists/murders, especially when those that get released go out and kill again. Let's not pretend we're holding upstanding and decent people at GITMO. We do agree that they shouldn't be held indefinitely, they should've been tried by military tribunals and formally imprisioned or executed already. I have no answer why the Bush Administration didn't tackle this more aggressively.

FOXNews.com - Bomber's Martyrdom Tape Renews Fears Over Consequences of Closing Gitmo - International News | News of the World | Middle East News | Europe News

I've got no problem with a woman's self-determination if she wants to terminate her own life, have at it. However the innocent and defensless life inside her has rights to freedom and self-determination too...correct? We just disagree on the definition of life.

From a government perspective, IMO the abortion issue should be decided by individual states with third trimester abortion being completely outlawed by the Fed. I'm not concerned about the counseling services, people can say what they want as long as my tax dollars aren't funding actual abortions, it's not my place to repress someone's opinion. We'll all eventually answer to the "Man" when our time is up.

P.S. F GB, and I hope you didn't have to work too late